Fighting Games Weekly | July 14-20 | Bracket Resets Full of Tears (of Joy?)
- Thread starter enzo_gt
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Osu 16 Bit
Member
Yes. This. I don't even spectate that much but those consistent link updates got me watching different streams I wouldn't have otherwise watched.
Curry-Hakase
Member
This. Not to mention there was also a Nu and Tager, also mid/lower tiers, that made it to top 8 that left a trail of Kokonoes in their wake.
You'll only get shamed by online scrubs, just ignore them like you would in any other game online.
Karsticles
Member
Kind of a lesser of evils for me. I actually enjoy the Blanka mirror just because he's so bad that I'm not scared of losing.
Well, I'll take a shot at it:
I think that high level play and entertainment are intrinsically linked in fighting games. However, high level play exists within the people actually playing, while entertainment is an effect felt by viewers. Players cannot inherently produce entertainment, as viewer response is outside of the realm of player control. Players can only play their game.
That said, within the realm of fighting games, high level play is what generally leads to entertainment. Consider three scenarios:
1) Infiltration picking Hakan against PR Balrog last year. So hype, probably the best moment of last year for me. However, it was only hype because Infiltration has a solid Hakan. If Infiltration's Hakan was garbage, the hype would have died down significantly. The Hakan pick itself also added hype, which means that there is something beyond high level play at work here as well.
2) Smash Bros. is a joy to watch, but all items, etc. are turned off. These are generally considered "For Fun", but imagine a Smash at Evo with items. Would that really generate lasting hype? Would people want to see a Smash with items at Evo year after year? Personally, I do not think so, because the random, anti-skill element of item drops lowers the potential level of play. Even at E3, I think the game was more interesting for the audience when items were turned off. It might be more fun to play with items, but when watching a competitive event, it weakens the experience.
3) FChamp spamming Repulsion against Haggar players. This is undoubtedly a high level play tactic that requires consistent execution and matchup knowledge. At first, it is pretty hype - it's hilarious to see Haggar get pushed around like that. Then, it gets dull, and it can be a pretty miserable viewing experience when it happens for 30+ Marvel seconds.
I think these three examples all bring out a different aspect of entertainment. Hakan was hype because the level of play was high, but also because the selected character was unexpected. Smash items are dull because they are not only unexpected, but they remove an element of skill from the game. Repulsion spamming against Haggar is dull because it is a repeated activity that removes all questions of interest for the viewer.
So, here is what I think produces entertainment:
1) Non-random activity (save for positive-random, but that's for another post).
2) Unexpected activity.
3) Perceivable skill.
The first criteria is entirely up to the game's developers. If a game has random elements (see: tripping), it will always be dull, because no one wants to see someone lose due to situations entirely out of his/her control. The second option shares responsibility between the players and the developers. In high level play, unexpected actions are necessary. Outside of highly damaged game mechanics, you must vary your actions to open your opponent up. However, in a high skill, "play to win" environment, if a highly damaged game mechanic exists, one should expect that it will be abused. As a result, dull situations are created within the context of high level play (Magneto vs. Haggar).
To summarize: high level play is generally more important than entertainment because it fosters entertainment, and nothing which is dependent on another thing can be superior to it. Low level play is consistently uninteresting, in contrast past the discovery period of a fighting game's lifespan. Furthermore, the better the design of the game, the more frequently high level play will lead to entertaining situations, because play variance is a result of both players having options, which not only increases depth of play, but also probability of surprise and thus entertainment. Games that feature poor balance, such as the Magneto vs. Haggar situation, are bound to experience heavy lulls in their entertainment value. This is not the fault of players, but of developers.
Snake Eyes himself won the Super Turbo HD Remix event at EVO in 2010.
It should be noted that the Magneto vs Haggar situation was more "Haggar without assists versus Magneto with Missiles/Rocks/Phoenix". Even excellent characters would be heavily disadvantaged in that situation.
Assisted Haggar vs assist Magneto is still very much a fight although still heavily in favor of Magneto. And it's not just Magneto.... Haggar has terrible match ups against any high mobile projectile character in the game.
But yes this is a developer fault not a player fault. FChamp wasn't doing it purposely to bore the audience, he was doing it because it was simply the most optimum and risk free way to play.
Assisted Haggar vs assist Magneto is still very much a fight although still heavily in favor of Magneto. And it's not just Magneto.... Haggar has terrible match ups against any high mobile projectile character in the game.
But yes this is a developer fault not a player fault. FChamp wasn't doing it purposely to bore the audience, he was doing it because it was simply the most optimum and risk free way to play.
Lostconfused
Member
That Tager murdered so many Kokonoes in the pools on stream, it was amazing.
Passive Assassin
Member
met bv, vulva, nws, renta, rotanibor, and chaotix. shoutouts to the mad chill hawaiian crew!
SixMachine
Member
Didn't Playstation All-Stars have non-random events and item spawns? I think that could be interesting concept to work in smash bros, since I could see it making players consider more stage control if they knew something like say saber appeared 30 seconds in the game. I didn't like PAS because I think ring outs are more fun than the super kill but I think the competitive smash community could make something like non random items work well in their rulesets if it was ever allowed, though I highly doubt it would be in smash 4.
She's just annoying, that's all. She's not that hard to deal with her once you learn the MU. Play whoever you want and fuck what others think.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
I don't think anybody who advocates that Smash be Items On only at all levels of play have the game's competitive and entertainment value in mind
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
What is a good price for a used TE?
I want to finally replace my old stick and I waited until evo because I thought there be some good deals on sticks, but you had to wait until August to get a 360 stick with the MadCatz deal. So, I guess I'll buy a stick from somebody in my local scene, but I'm not sure what kind of money we're talking.
I want to finally replace my old stick and I waited until evo because I thought there be some good deals on sticks, but you had to wait until August to get a 360 stick with the MadCatz deal. So, I guess I'll buy a stick from somebody in my local scene, but I'm not sure what kind of money we're talking.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
but jonathan holmes said
SixMachine
Member
Well it depends on the model and wear and tear. This might sound like me being a cheapass but if you get it secondhand, don't pay more than 70-80% of base price of the model because you might not know what can go wrong like the buttons might be more worn than you expected and you need to buy a new set. You can also get something dirt cheap for like $30 on amazon and just replace buttons and stick/gate if you feel like it.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Is he a soccer player now?
the fuck
I think at this point we can ask if Smash Items are more or less workable than Interactibles in Injustice, and given the random drop nature of Smash Items, it's not hard to see why they would be less.
Random elements makes a game more interesting. It's kinda hard to find a fighting game out that doesn't have a situation that varies from game to game.
Sure, if you're not even looking.
I am not sure you and I are on the same page when it comes to what "random" means.
Random is not player decisions. Player decisions mean every fighting game match is inherently completely different from each other.
Random is in game mechanics yielding unpredictable results. An example of randomness would be if you threw a fireball and it had a chance to do double damage on hit. Or if you made an input for a move and the game rolls a dice on which move comes out (like PW/Hsien Ko item mechanics).
Bit of a tangent, but this discussion about entertainment vs play is speaking to me right now. One of the first design ideas I ever wrote up for a video game was pretty much a way of introducing items into high level platform fighter (Melee) gameplay. It was my internal response to the mentality that high level Melee play was somehow wrong for not playing with items on.
The long and short of it was a Soul Calibur like cast where everyone had one prominent weapon or means of offense + disarming mechanics (taking someone else's weapon to use mid match) + your typical Peach/Dedede vs whoever match.
I think they both equally matter but then there are match ups that happen in games that skew things far too much towards entertainment value. A lot of people just popping into the EVO thread gave the Hungrybox/Armada matchups so much guff and I was just mystified thinking about how that could be seen as "lame" or a bore when people loved them some MVC2 Sent air footsies matches.
The long and short of it was a Soul Calibur like cast where everyone had one prominent weapon or means of offense + disarming mechanics (taking someone else's weapon to use mid match) + your typical Peach/Dedede vs whoever match.
I think they both equally matter but then there are match ups that happen in games that skew things far too much towards entertainment value. A lot of people just popping into the EVO thread gave the Hungrybox/Armada matchups so much guff and I was just mystified thinking about how that could be seen as "lame" or a bore when people loved them some MVC2 Sent air footsies matches.
Are you gonna antagonize me because I asked that the thread title not contain evo spoilers?
But yeah I meant to say a lot of them do.
That's what I'm saying. A lot of fighting games have elements like that.
Not even part of it, you're just on a roll!
Karsticles
Member
Possible L-canceling in Smash 4 in the latest trailer:
http://gfycat.com/FineSentimentalGecko
I can't speak for all card games, but MtG decks, almost 100% of the time in competitive play, center around reducing randomness. Deck searches are a prime facet of the game so you can ensure your gameplan goes off without a hitch. MtG is kind of on the Haggar vs. Magneto side of this street. If people could plan their deck order, then the game would become optimized and exceedingly boring quickly. It kind of needs the random element to keep the game from becoming stagnant.
http://gfycat.com/FineSentimentalGecko
What randomness exists in MOBAs? The damage range? I think those would be better without the damage ranges, personally. It's really annoying to miss like 5 crits in a row, or get crit 5 times in a row. Also, I don't know how DotA2 works, but in DotA there was a scaling chance of random abilities proccing to ensure the game wasn't too random. It's a reasonable compromise.
I can't speak for all card games, but MtG decks, almost 100% of the time in competitive play, center around reducing randomness. Deck searches are a prime facet of the game so you can ensure your gameplan goes off without a hitch. MtG is kind of on the Haggar vs. Magneto side of this street. If people could plan their deck order, then the game would become optimized and exceedingly boring quickly. It kind of needs the random element to keep the game from becoming stagnant.
Terumi's problem is his lack of overhead, which makes opening people up difficult.
Well, EVO has already made people jump on the Rose train.
Just played two matches, one match some dude played as Rose and only used Reflect and spammed fireballs the entire match. Bad host made me miss blocks, so it came down to the wire. He did a jump in, and of course Ryu's second ultra is a wicked anti air ass spanking.
EVO, its what gives men wings.
Just played two matches, one match some dude played as Rose and only used Reflect and spammed fireballs the entire match. Bad host made me miss blocks, so it came down to the wire. He did a jump in, and of course Ryu's second ultra is a wicked anti air ass spanking.
EVO, its what gives men wings.
yeah this is true. As a yugioh player part of that game was mimizing shit you have to deal with with proper deck building. Search cards and cards that thin the deck are consistently seen on the ban list as a testament to how powerful that is. I agree the games like this sorta of need that variance.
Smash 4 doesn't have any options (that we can see) that let's the players control how items spawn or how hazards on stages work. Instead, items have to be turned off and the stages that have super horrible random hazards will likely have their FD-versions be used.
The big problem with items in Smash is more than just the random spawning, though. They aren't balanced whatsoever. Final Smashes vary from crappy to borderline broken, some items are outright better to just throw at people than use as their intended purpose (see: Home Run Bat, Star Rod, Beam Sword), some items are flat out OP, and so on and so on.
Nothing is being changed about items in Smash 4 at all. They're still intended for the chaotic nature of free for alls. They aren't being designed for competition in mind and therefore they shouldn't be forced into that environment. Tons of people who don't play Smash don't get this for some reason and think adding items will make the game more "fun" to watch when that won't have the desired effect at all.
I guarantee items won't be different enough in design to warrant testing again for competitive play. I mean, just look at the Beetle item from LoZ. It's an insta-death as far as what we've seen from it. An item being an insta-KO at some % isn't unusual but at any percent is kind of unheard of.
It's really the design intent behind the items that keep them from being used in competitive play.
Shouta
Member
Smash with items would be fun but they'd have to be more stringent with which ones were usable than they would with say, stages. There are items that aren't overpowered but still give tools to characters that didn't have them before and wouldn't be overpowered if they were random.
irfaanator
Banned
what runes you get are random. Hero damage is a range so it's also sort of random. Some skills I believe are also a bit random. Mainly ogre magi's ultimate. Also I guess in a way team makeup if you are playing casually
There are a ton of random elements in DOTA 2.
*Damage ranges are random. This is most prominent when you are trying to last hit a Catapult that is being hit by tower, in early game you are at the mercy of RNG as far as getting that last hit.
*Creep camp spawn is random. For junglers they can have a great start or a mediocre start depending upon creep spawns.
*Roshan randomly spawns after being killed with a certain time limit. It used to be that he spawned at a very specific time but recently they randomized that spawn time.
*Rune spawning are random and they can make the difference between a Mid lane win or loss. 50% chance of them spawning top or bottom then there is additional RNG on which Rune you get. There was this match where the mid QOP got 8 DDs in one game and steam rolled (this was at TI3 not some pub game).
*Many heroes and items have random abilities. Daedalus, MKB and Basher have powerful random procs. Axe's Counter Helix is random. Chaos Knight's whole character design is based around RNG (stun is random, crit is random even his pull is random) as is Ogre Magi. There are some internal cooldowns in place to "minimize the randomness" but all things considered it's still really random.
*Characters who are up hill will have an advantage because ranged attacks have a chance to miss against them. This is also a RNG based mechanic.
*Damage ranges are random. This is most prominent when you are trying to last hit a Catapult that is being hit by tower, in early game you are at the mercy of RNG as far as getting that last hit.
*Creep camp spawn is random. For junglers they can have a great start or a mediocre start depending upon creep spawns.
*Roshan randomly spawns after being killed with a certain time limit. It used to be that he spawned at a very specific time but recently they randomized that spawn time.
*Rune spawning are random and they can make the difference between a Mid lane win or loss. 50% chance of them spawning top or bottom then there is additional RNG on which Rune you get. There was this match where the mid QOP got 8 DDs in one game and steam rolled (this was at TI3 not some pub game).
*Many heroes and items have random abilities. Daedalus, MKB and Basher have powerful random procs. Axe's Counter Helix is random. Chaos Knight's whole character design is based around RNG (stun is random, crit is random even his pull is random) as is Ogre Magi. There are some internal cooldowns in place to "minimize the randomness" but all things considered it's still really random.
*Characters who are up hill will have an advantage because ranged attacks have a chance to miss against them. This is also a RNG based mechanic.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Smart Bombs are so dumb. You can't even smash di out of them in the new one
Empty Jar is the pinnacle of YGO.
sixteen-bit
Member
like metsu shoryuken in alpha 3?
yeah, i know it has a sweetspot for max damage based on distance and isn't random
that shit wont fly in the game today tho.
SixMachine
Member
Shingo from KOF is pretty much a "joke" version of Kyo, he is comical but competitively viable (unlike say servbot). He doesn't know how to control his flames but he can randomly crit and ignite a spark and hitstop getting a better version of the move.
sixteen-bit
Member
Pinnacle of Evo 2014 was Indestructible playing before SF4 finals
irfaanator
Banned
yea that was soo good
irfaanator
Banned
lol