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[fader]

No I'm in my other house on the other side of the country. I am no bustah sir. I just have too much houses. :E

 

[mbpm1]

No I'm in my other house on the other side of the country. I am no bustah sir. I just have too much houses. :E

ShinMaruku confirmed Illuminati

 

[The Lone Dragon]

FGW | DaiGOAT 4 : Furry Road

I like this one because it incorporates both big events of the day, rather than the constant MK vs SF crap.

 

[Karsticles]

Ok now you have shifted the argument from "getting stunned" to "getting ganked by 2 or more players". There's really not much difference between ES stunning you and killing you vs QoP blinking in Scream + Ulti to kill you in an instant. It's a combo that instantly kill you and you have no way to avoid it especially in the early game.

Again we are back to the point of "fun". No one likes getting ganked, it's not fun getting ganked. But should ganks not be in MOBAs because it's not fun for the person ganked? Hell no.

Ganks are the reward for by passing lane experience/gold, taking advantage of map control and team work. It's an essential part of the game.


In any case, combos/set play isn't really what's keeping the casuals back. People play Hearthstone casually and that game is filled with unavoidable combos and set play. Hell some casuals at least like watching fancy combos and crazy offensive pressure.

You always overcomplicate things. This isn't about MOBAs. It doesn't matter, and I know all this.

The sole point was that losing control of your character is a universally disliked phenomenon. This is not up to personal taste. No one likes it. Fighting games make you lose control a lot. MOBAs don't. Maybe fighting games would benefit from such a change.

That is it.

 

[Ragingnight]

You always overcomplicate things. This isn't about MOBAs. It doesn't matter, and I know all this.

The sole point was that losing control of your character is a universally disliked phenomenon. This is not up to personal taste. No one likes it. Fighting games make you lose control a lot. MOBAs don't. Maybe fighting games would benefit from such a change.

That is it.

KI tried this lol. You can technically break every combo!

 

[fader]

hope spooby put up KI top 8 soon, I really wanna watch it.

 

[mbpm1]

I like this one because it incorporates both big events of the day, rather than the constant MK vs SF crap.

If we went that route i'd prefer FGW| Mad DaiGOAT: Furry Road

 

[vocab]

removing combos from a fighting game will end up making the fighting game equivalent heroes of the storm.

Actually you'll just make divekick, and a game like divekick while fun, has the skill ceiling of tic tac toe.

Fighting games are doomed. Just like competitive rts. No where to go but down.

 

[Unlucky]

I will slay a DaiGOAT thread title like a I would a group of Drowners in the WItcher.

 

[mbpm1]

Fighting games are doomed. Just like competitive rts. No where to go but down.

In that case...MvC4 confirmed

 

[Dahbomb]

The sole point was that losing control of your character is a universally disliked phenomenon. This is not up to personal taste. No one likes it. Fighting games make you lose control a lot. MOBAs don't. Maybe fighting games would benefit from such a change.

And I already said that this particular aspect of fighting games is not what is keeping people from not playing fighting games or what differentiates good designed games from bad ones. Or else people won't be playing strategy games or card games like Hearthstone because there's a big degree of losing control or being in unavoidable situations in those games.

MOBAs do in fact make you lose control. When you die, you are out of the game until the timer expires which is even worse than getting comboed (in late games you can be out for 120 seconds). So this is not a case of "fighting games have it, MOBAs don't". I know what your point is but you keep trying to bring up these examples when they aren't really solid examples to support your point.

removing combos from a fighting game will end up making the fighting game equivalent of heroes of the storm.

Actually you'll just make divekick, and a game like divekick while fun, has the skill ceiling of tic tac toe.

Pretty much this. A MOBA where you have more "control" than in standard MOBAs exist but it's a flop compared to other MOBAs. So clearly people are FINE with losing a bit of control and having some complexities in their games.

 

[Zissou]

San Diego marvel streaming with cloud/clock/paradigm/others there too.

On the combos thing- combos can add meaningful depth (if the game is flexible enough to allow it). Having to choose between raw damage, screen position, oki, going for resets, etc. and having to weigh the options on the fly depending on the state of the match at the time adds depth imo.

 

[Exr]

Hear me out how about Daigoat

 

[Pappasman]

You always overcomplicate things. This isn't about MOBAs. It doesn't matter, and I know all this.

The sole point was that losing control of your character is a universally disliked phenomenon. This is not up to personal taste. No one likes it. Fighting games make you lose control a lot. MOBAs don't. Maybe fighting games would benefit from such a change.

That is it.

You are supposed to dislike losing control of your character. If you are getting combo'd that means you lost in neutral/made a mistake and are getting punished for it. Its up to your opponent to punish as hard as they can and usually going for harder, more optimal punishes is more difficult than quick and dirty bnbs.

So if your opponent doesn't want to take a big risk/can't take a big risk you aren't going to lose control of your character for very long. There is a lot of risk/reward stuff like this in fighting games that I really like. I think "losing control of character = no depth" is the wrong way to look at it.

 

[Kimosabae]

San Diego marvel streaming with cloud/clock/paradigm/others there too.

On the combos thing- combos can add meaningful depth (if the game is flexible enough to allow it). Having to choose between raw damage, screen position, oki, going for resets, etc. and having to weigh the options on the fly depending on the state of the match at the time adds depth imo.

So SFxT, basically

 

[Karsticles]

KI tried this lol. You can technically break every combo!

I know.

And I already said that this particular aspect of fighting games is not what is keeping people from not playing fighting games or what differentiates good designed games from bad ones. Or else people won't be playing strategy games or card games like Hearthstone because there's a big degree of losing control or being in unavoidable situations in those games.

MOBAs do in fact make you lose control. When you die, you are out of the game until the timer expires which is even worse than getting comboed (in late games you can be out for 120 seconds). So this is not a case of "fighting games have it, MOBAs don't". I know what your point is but you keep trying to bring up these examples when they aren't really solid examples to support your point.



Pretty much this. A MOBA where you have more "control" than in standard MOBAs exist but it's a flop compared to other MOBAs. So clearly people are FINE with losing a bit of control and having some complexities in their games.

You are factually wrong. I have heard numerous people say they dropped Marvel because they got tired of getting hit into a combo that seemed to go on forever, and they hardly got to play. Losing SOME control of your character is fine. MOBAs and stuns are fine. The 120 second time out is bearable in the context of a 45 minute match.

What do people do when they are continually ganked, though, and spend more time waiting to play than playing? They quit. At least, back when I played DotA in pubs (before I joined a group), that is what happened. People just said "Fuck it, I am done". My example is perfect.

I don't play Hearthstone, but even in a game as refined and distinguished as chess, when you have lost control to the point where you cannot win, there is a common action people take: resigning.

I am not wrong on this. I agree that losing SOME control is fine. If you lose control for 50 seconds out of a 90 second match, though, that is mighty discouraging. If you can't see how that would negatively impact the player base, then I don't know what more I can say.

You are supposed to dislike losing control of your character. If you are getting combo'd that means you lost in neutral/made a mistake and are getting punished for it. Its up to your opponent to punish as hard as they can and usually going for harder, more optimal punishes is more difficult than quick and dirty bnbs.

So if your opponent doesn't want to take a big risk/can't take a big risk you aren't going to lose control of your character for very long. There is a lot of risk/reward stuff like this in fighting games that I really like. I think "losing control of character = no depth" is the wrong way to look at it.

Losing control of your character takes the depth to zero because you have no actions to take, and thus no active considerations to make.

San Diego marvel streaming with cloud/clock/paradigm/others there too.

On the combos thing- combos can add meaningful depth (if the game is flexible enough to allow it). Having to choose between raw damage, screen position, oki, going for resets, etc. and having to weigh the options on the fly depending on the state of the match at the time adds depth imo.

In most fighters, though, all of these things line up unfortunately. Moreover: what depth does it add for the player getting hit?

It would be advisable if fighters universally started to add something to do while getting hit.

UMvC3 H&H parry glitch.
Combo breakers.
Directional influence.
Bursts.

There are more ideas out there to make getting your ass kicked more interesting than staring at the screen. Even kicking ass in long combos gets boring to me. I want to get back to the neutral ASAP.

 

[Jazz-ism]

Karsticles I think your perspective is interesting and the idea that you think you can formulate depth is...brilliant actually

that said I think you over emphasize the value of control in some ways and not enough in others. The freedom of mobility you think Smash has is not so distant from other titles within the scope of their game...and even with DI the "control" you have is only to a degree...

the "loss of control" that you don't like stems from the fact that you made the wrong decision before...

I want you to consider why brawl wasn't as successful as a competitive title. Tripping aside, it should be the pinnacle of your "depth"

 

[Zissou]

I agree with what Seyavesh said earlier- a getting hit is chance for you to think about the match/mentally reset/etc. too. The faster the pace of the game and the higher the neutral game intensity, the more I appreciate having a tiny break to get my shit together.

 

[theprodigy]

What do people do when they are continually ganked, though, and spend more time waiting to play than playing? They quit. At least, back when I played DotA in pubs (before I joined a group), that is what happened. People just said "Fuck it, I am done". My example is perfect.

yeah, I'm sure Riot really thinks you're right, they'll be removing respawn times in LoL any day now

 

[Negaduck]

So with bison getting older and having a slightly updated costume, why didn't they do that with ryu and chun? Ryu could have a beard and updated GI or something.

Kinda feels like a missed opportunity. Could have an update like terry in MOTW.

 

[Kimosabae]

Losing control of your character takes the depth to zero because you have no actions to take, and thus no active considerations to make.

We're playing Fighting Games. There's more to their depth than just the other player in this arena and that's part of the appeal.

In most fighters, though, all of these things line up unfortunately. Moreover: what depth does it add for the player getting hit?

It gives both players an opportunity to breath and consider the overall state of the match, actually.

It would be advisable if fighters universally started to add something to do while getting hit.

UMvC3 H&H parry glitch.
Combo breakers.
Directional influence.
Bursts.

There are more ideas out there to make getting your ass kicked more interesting than staring at the screen. Even kicking ass in long combos gets boring to me. I want to get back to the neutral ASAP.

Your heart's in the right place, but I don't think you've considered this thoroughly enough.

 

[The Lone Dragon]

So SFxT, basically

SFxT doesn't get enough acknowledgement for its super-interactive combo system. People act like it's just ABC launcher, rinse repeat. Couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[BakedYams]

FGW | Pick A Top Tier

 

[SolarPowered]

It would be advisable if fighters universally started to add something to do while getting hit.

UMvC3 H&H parry glitch.
Combo breakers.
Directional influence.
Bursts.

There are more ideas out there to make getting your ass kicked more interesting than staring at the screen. Even kicking ass in long combos gets boring to me. I want to get back to the neutral ASAP.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone apply the VSav Dark Force mechanic to characters in hitstun (ala bursts) before. Balancing how often someone should be able to do that would be a bit tricky and a lot of people would have a lot of ideas regarding how strong or unique they should be. The latter would probably be harder to figure out than the former.

It gives both players an opportunity to breath and consider the overall state of the match, actually.

Sounds good until you run up against situations where both players are breathing and only one of them spends 3/4ths of the match thinking "welp, I'm fucked". This was common in SG in MvC3.

 

[Dahbomb]

You are factually wrong. I have heard numerous people say they dropped Marvel because they got tired of getting hit into a combo that seemed to go on forever, and they hardly got to play. Losing SOME control of your character is fine. MOBAs and stuns are fine. The 120 second time out is bearable in the context of a 45 minute match.

What do people do when they are continually ganked, though, and spend more time waiting to play than playing? They quit. At least, back when I played DotA in pubs (before I joined a group), that is what happened. People just said "Fuck it, I am done". My example is perfect.

I don't play Hearthstone, but even in a game as refined and distinguished as chess, when you have lost control to the point where you cannot win, there is a common action people take: resigning.

I am not wrong on this. I agree that losing SOME control is fine. If you lose control for 50 seconds out of a 90 second match, though, that is mighty discouraging. If you can't see how that would negatively impact the player base, then I don't know what more I can say.

You are being stubborn and missing what I am trying to say. So I will put it into bullet points so you can focus on the problem:

*Having "control" in a game is not the single most important factor in what makes people stick with a game or stop playing it NOR is it the single most important factor in what makes a game fun or not. There are many examples of games that take away control but millions of people still play. Likewise there are games which give you FULL CONTROL over the entire game but are not past indie status. I have given you examples of these and other people have as well.

*What makes something fun or not fun is not the point and should not be the sole criteria of good design. There are many elements in game that are not "fun" but they make for games that have more depth and are generally more long lasting. You are focusing too much on "no control = no fun".

*Yes... people will quit a game because they felt they were not in control of a match but there are excuses to quit every single game on the planet. People will quit because of RNG, they will quit because of barrier of entry, they will quit because of high skill difference, they will quit because of cheese tactics etc. But there are also people who will quit a game because it lacks that high skill cap, which lacks good design, good balance etc. Every single fighting game in the planet has something that will make someone in the world quit because they didn't find that one thing "fun".


So when you zero in on someone quitting UMVC3 because they felt they didn't have control... I can give you an example of myself quitting Divekick because the game lacked any real variance in game play or lacked a high skill ceiling despite giving me FULL CONTROL of my character during the entire match.

 

[Jazz-ism]

Play what you like Karsticles all anyone can do there is question your tastes. No one can change that but you.


The second you start with that "smash is deeper than anything else" nonsense however is where ppl that knoe whats up are going to take issue. Didn't hungry box say some nonsense like "melee is the best game ever It is perfect"..? Can you read this and see how ridiculous it is?

It's an opinion but its a bad one (lol) and just ignorant. That's not disrespect to the game but to theplayer fyi

 

[Kimosabae]

Sounds good until you run up against situations where both players are breathing and only one of them spends 3/4ths of the match thinking "welp, I'm fucked". This was common in SG in MvC3.

Yeah, that's called "Being a Bad FG Player".


AKA "Being a Marvel Player".

 

[SloaneRisette]

Play what you like Karsticles all anyone can do there is question your tastes. No one can change that but you.


The second you start with that "smash is deeper than anything else" nonsense however is where ppl that knoe whats up are going to take issue. Didn't hungry box say some nonsense like "melee is the best game ever It is perfect"..? Can you read this and see how ridiculous it is?

Melee is the best though

It has wavedashing

 

[kasane]

anyone getting usf4 ps4? im thinking of buying it

 

[Dahbomb]

UMVC3 H&H Parry "mechanic" should never be talked about in a fighting game thread ever again.

I am dead serious. I will put you on ignore faster than the speed of light.

H&H is a fun mode but the Parry makes it unplayable and not fun for everyone.

 

[Jazz-ism]

Melee is the best though

It has wavedashing

It has a lot more and a lot less than that...precisely why it has plenty of company in the "good fighting game" category. It damn sure isn't S+ like some folks want to believe tho

 

[SloaneRisette]

It has a lot more and a lot less than that...precisely why it has plenty of company in the "good fighting game" category. It damn sure isn't S+ like some folks want to believe tho

I was being sarcastic, sorry

I like Melee but the diehards will die hard for it

 

[Jazz-ism]

I was being sarcastic, sorry

I like Melee but the diehards will die hard for it

Nah I knew you were kidding but the sad part is some ppl actually say that shit and I just be like

 

[Dahbomb]

There are people who think SF4 is a perfect game like 801Strider. So this is hardly surprisingly to be honest.

 

[Kimosabae]

It has a lot more and a lot less than that...precisely why it has plenty of company in the "good fighting game" category. It damn sure isn't S+ like some folks want to believe tho

It's definitely S+. Realistically, there's not a whole lot of games to put above it.

 

[CountBlack]

FGW | DaiGOAT

he gave us the most hype moment this weekend free.


top 3 sets of SF4 this year so far.


Marvel vs Comcast is great tho

 

[SolarPowered]

Play what you like Karsticles all anyone can do there is question your tastes. No one can change that but you.


The second you start with that "smash is deeper than anything else" nonsense however is where ppl that knoe whats up are going to take issue. Didn't hungry box say some nonsense like "melee is the best game ever It is perfect"..? Can you read this and see how ridiculous it is?

It's an opinion but its a bad one (lol) and just ignorant. That's not disrespect to the game but to theplayer fyi

I've said something to the effect of "Smash is as about perfect as a game made by humans can be". Those few games that reach that nirvana are something special. Them being that good doesn't mean other games aren't fucking awesome, though. About the only lesson Mahvel can learn from Smash is camera zoom. Superjumps in the versus games seem kind of stupid with the way cameras work in those games. Mike didn't really choose to tackle that, so they just sidestepped it in SG. Luckily for us other games in the past can do anime and versus style without taking to the sky so much (GG and VSav).

Yeah, that's called "Being a Bad FG Player".

AKA "Being a Marvel Player".

That first touch deciding everything (to a greater degree in mvc3 thanks to x-factor) was serious business.

 

[fader]

There are people who think SF4 is a perfect game like 801Strider. So this is hardly surprisingly to be honest.

wow really?

I have high respect for 801 Strider's mind but that's a shocker...

 

[Dahbomb]

wow really?

I have high respect for 801 Strider's mind but that's a shocker...

Ultradavid said it on stream on his Ultrachen show. He was as shocked as you were.

Nothing wrong with it though, it's just an opinion.

 

[Jazz-ism]

There are people who think SF4 is a perfect game like 801Strider. So this is hardly surprisingly to be honest.

It's definitely S+. Realistically, there's not a whole lot of games to put above it.

801strider did not say that. There's no way.

If it's S+ kimosabae then there's a few other games in that category. My point was melee is not an island the game has plenty of flaws and ppl trying to say it's somehow "better" than a slew of other games are highly delusional or ignorant

Top players aren't immune to having bad opinions

 

[call_kotaku]

how many DaiGOAT threads have there been?

 

[Zissou]

People gotta stop conflating 'best' with 'perfect.' Loving any fighting game is more about loving it despite its flaws rather than an absence of them. The good being so good that it makes you look past the bad is most important.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

9) Gamma Crush (beats every option because it's fully invincible but it's a waste of 1 bar and is unsafe if you miss it)

This sounds funny I want to try it

 

[toddhunter]

how many DaiGOAT threads have there been?

Not enough.

We also need Marvel 3 vs Skullgirls and hurt or heal 3d fighting game characters.

 

[Dai101]

FGW|Brought to you by SPONCH!

 

[SloaneRisette]

Not enough.

We also need Marvel 3 vs Skullgirls and hurt or heal 3d fighting game characters.

+1 jaycee -1 jin

 

[Kimosabae]

801strider did not say that. There's no way.

If it's S+ kimosabae then there's a few other games in that category.

That's what I attempted to say, but I did it poorly.

Fanatics will always be fanatics. Dismiss them and move on. I don't know what a "perfect game" is, or if it even exists, but you can keep it. Melee is great as is.


*edit*

Why does it seem like Zissou is my soul brother right now?

 

[commanderpepper]

FGW|Brought to you by SPONCH!

This has my vote.

 

[shaowebb]

FGW| Needs more Anime

 

[Rhapsody]

I think Smash has a ton of depth primarily because of how aerial play works.

Ironically, ever since Brawl, they cut the depth on this hard. It was handled great in Melee and 64.