Support NeoGAF

[Riposte]

Gentlemen, please read all several hundred chapters of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure so you may know and come to love this man.


The thread where I posted this was closed, but I wonder what you guys would say about this regarding fighting game reviews: (you may call me an idiot)

It's a little off-topic, but I think the solution for fighting game reviews exists in a joint effort by the community (namely the smart and talented players) led by a dude with a great mind for fighting game design and game criticism (the journo who actually writes the review). Standing on the shoulders of giants and whatnot. (EDIT: Well, that's half of it, the more ambitious half. What really needs to be done is making fighting game reviews about conclusions rather than facts. Rather than read off a list of features and mechanics with a careless remark here and there, describe what their effect on the game is and whether that's a good or bad thing.)

To clear a few things:

This isn't criticism by community, it's speeding up game analysis, followed by criticism from an individual. For example, it's highly unfeasible for a single individual to have intimate knowledge of all of a game's match-ups as to have a good impression of how the roster actually plays out. It was brought up before, but a lot of high-level players can't articulate very well at all (and some of them even have small-minded, scruby tendencies). This is why the individual is key; the piece is ultimately their (nuanced, expert) position after exposure to many opinions on the game. In this respect, we have can two disagreeing opinions from the same base, as decided by what they feel is ideal for a fighting game.

I think we already do this within the fighting game community. Not with reviews, but instead the opinions reviews would be based on. Again, few of us get first-hand experience with all of a game's match-ups, but that doesn't stop us for examining matches we've never played (in a serious/competitive context) and letting that color our opinion of the game (namely, it's balance). (Personally, I'm aware my opinion on all games is influenced by voices that I respect; they don't replace what I think, but I absorb and consider them nevertheless.)

An example of what making reviews more about conclusions, which I think I said before: I'm sure almost all the reviews of Street Fighter IV mentioned the Focus Attack mechanic and only the really useless ones failed to mentioned FADCs. However how many considered the effect FADCs had on the game (e.g., making a blocked uppercut safe) and, rarer still, how many dared to pass judgment?


EDIT: I'm trying really, really hard not to watch the Bayonetta 2 Direct. How spoilery do you suspect it is? Note I consider content, music, etc., to be "videogame spoilers".

 

[Rhapsody]

EDIT: I'm trying really, really hard not to watch the Bayonetta 2 Direct. How spoilery do you suspect it is? Note I consider content, music, etc., to be "videogame spoilers".

Might want to wait considering your list. I'm usually one to hate spoilers, but I welcomed everything that they showed off.

They showed off some weapons, a new mode, and costumes. And of course they showed some enemies and some music.

That's all I'll say without going into the spoilers.

 

[Retro_]

Just saw the Bayonetta 2 Direct. That game's going to keep me busy until Xrd.

Let's coop

 

[Rhapsody]

Let's coop

Going to be so fun.

 

[RockTurtle]

i want to see p. h. be the resident fighting game reviewer at kot.

the scene HAS been kinda stagnant atm

 

[poopninjamvc3mk]

Lotta UNIEL love in Michigan. Gonna be a main game at Youmacon x Michigan Masters this year apparently

Ah, makes sense

 

[enzo_gt]

i want to see p. h. be the resident fighting game reviewer at kotaku

the seen HAS been kinda stagnant atm

why did you edit the name twice

I don't even know who that is lol

 

[TheBesteban]

i want to see p. h. be the resident fighting game reviewer at kotaku

the seen HAS been kinda stagnant atm

I agree on the stagnant part. Everything is too event focused, so when there aren't events, there's very little going on in the scene that attracts attention.

I have ideas, but I'm just trying to clear the slate so I can test some content stuff in the next few weeks.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's a little off-topic, but I think the solution for fighting game reviews exists in a joint effort by the community (namely the smart and talented players) led by a dude with a great mind for fighting game design and game criticism (the journo who actually writes the review). Standing on the shoulders of giants and whatnot. (EDIT: Well, that's half of it, the more ambitious half. What really needs to be done is making fighting game reviews about conclusions rather than facts. Rather than read off a list of features and mechanics with a careless remark here and there, describe what their effect on the game is and whether that's a good or bad thing.)

This should honestly be applied to most game genres not just fighting games. Reviews for any semi-hardcore/skillful game are a joke.

Many games are reviewed by unskilled and uneducated game journalists who are almost always approaching a game with the "casual" first timer angle. Sure that is fine as one part of the review but there should always be a secondary review complimenting it that covers the game from an enthusiast angle.


I don't think I have seriously read a DMC review since DMC3 came out.

 

[RockTurtle]

why did you edit the name twice

I don't even know who that is lol

i realized posting certain names would attract certain people who do gaf searches for their name, cowriters, and websites

and i just realized after the fact i dont wanna invite that sort of attention here. this be hallowed ground.

 

[Uraizen]

Let's coop

Going to be so fun.

Add me to this mental list.

 

[Kumubou]

Gentlemen, please read all several hundred chapters of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure so you may know and come to love this man.


The thread where I posted this was closed, but I wonder what you guys would say about this regarding fighting game reviews: (you may call me an idiot)



To clear a few things:

This isn't criticism by community, it's speeding up game analysis, followed by criticism from an individual. For example, it's highly unfeasible for a single individual to have intimate knowledge of all of a game's match-ups as to have a good impression of how the roster actually plays out. It was brought up before, but a lot of high-level players can't articulate very well at all (and some of them even have small-minded, scruby tendencies). This is why the individual is key; the piece is ultimately their (nuanced, expert) position after exposure to many opinions on the game. In this respect, we have can two disagreeing opinions from the same base, as decided by what they feel is ideal for a fighting game.

I think we already do this within the fighting game community. Not with reviews, but instead the opinions reviews would be based on. Again, few of us get first-hand experience with all of a game's match-ups, but that doesn't stop us for examining matches we've never played (in a serious/competitive context) and letting that color our opinion of the game (namely, it's balance). (Personally, I'm aware my opinion on all games is influenced by voices that I respect; they don't replace what I think, but I absorb and consider them nevertheless.)

An example of what making reviews more about conclusions, which I think I said before: I'm sure almost all the reviews of Street Fighter IV mentioned the Focus Attack mechanic and only the really useless ones failed to mentioned FADCs. However how many considered the effect FADCs had on the game (e.g., making a blocked uppercut safe) and, rarer still, how many dared to pass judgment?


EDIT: I'm trying really, really hard not to watch the Bayonetta 2 Direct. How spoilery do you suspect it is? Note I consider content, music, etc., to be "videogame spoilers".

There's a couple of problems with that. The biggest one being that nobody is going to have a good understanding of any match-up. Even the top players are still going to be feeling things out. I don't think it's completely useless (since a lot of the contours of a match-up are fairly obvious to experienced players), but it won't be fleshed out and there's always tech. that can change a match-up.

The other issue is that it's hard to get a read on where a game is going until it's been shaken down a fair bit. Go back and read reviews of BBCT -- some reviews had an idea of some of the silliness of that game, but no one knew just how busted the game was.

Honestly though, I think fighting game reviews from someone with relatively little experience are OK, provided the tone of the review carries as such. It really comes down to who your target audience is, and even a large majority of dedicated videogame players on a site like this don't have much experience with fighting games. The reviews aren't for us, and frankly a serious, in-depth overview is not going to be helpful for most people.

 

[QisTopTier]

Ugh didn't go in today, was feeling nauseated when I got out of bed, by the time I got there I felt like puking I think losing all that blood messed me up pretty bad x.x. not to mention I can't walk because I messed up my leg last night.. fml I want this shit to be over with already so I can move on

 

[Kumubou]

Add me to this mental list.

I want in on this, I just watched the direct for this game and I'm glad Nintendo decided to salvage this game because it looks damn good.

Ugh didn't go in today, was feeling nauseated when I got out of bed, by the time I got there I felt like puking I think losing all that blood messed me up pretty bad x.x. not to mention I can't walk because I messed up my leg last night.. fml I want this shit to be over with already so I can move on

Oof. Hopefully you can build some meter and run it back ASAP.

 

[.la1n]

i realized posting certain names would attract certain people who do gaf searches for their name, cowriters, and websites

and i just realized after the fact i dont wanna invite that sort of attention here. this be hallowed ground.

Your a good person for that. This is one of the few places I will actually post regularly because it's (usually) pretty chill.

 

[QisTopTier]

Bayo 2 is one of the reasons I'm getting my wii u even better that I never played the first one

 

[.la1n]

Bayo 2 is one of the reasons I'm getting my wii u even better that I never played the first one

You are in for one hell of a good time. It's probably going to be tough resisting playing the sequel until you finish the original (although to be fair the order really doesn't matter, it's not about the story in these games anyway.) I just imagine the new mechanics introduced in the sequel might make it harder going back to the original title without them.

 

[Beckx]

Bayo 2 is one of the reasons I'm getting my wii u even better that I never played the first one

Heh, Bayo2 (and TW101) sold me on Wii U before it was even released.

 

[QisTopTier]

You are in for one hell of a good time. It's probably going to be tough resisting playing the sequel until you finish the original (although to be fair the order really doesn't matter, it's not about the story in these games anyway.) I just imagine the new mechanics introduced in the sequel might make it harder going back to the original title without them.

If I can play Ys 1 and 2 before playing later titles I can hold off

 

[CurlyW]

i want to see p. h. be the resident fighting game reviewer at kot.

I wasn't aware she played video games. Though I don't think she's done much since Everybody Loves Raymond.

 

[Infinite]

The Wiiu is the only current gen consoles with games worth a damn tbh.

 

[JeTmAn81]

The Wiiu is the only current gen consoles with games worth a damn tbh.

It's the only one that has more than 5 games I'm interested in. Planning to get one next year.

 

[Kadey]

Ultra anyone?

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

A Bayonetta Smash announcement would be pretty amazing imo.

Spoiler

I'll be picking up a Wii U for Bayonetta 2 when it releases.

 

[Retro_]

If I can play Ys 1 and 2 before playing later titles I can hold off

I dunno. With as much content as these games have I can't imagine rushing through one to get to the sequel, nor playing them back to back as theres so much content to unlock.

While with Ys, especially Ys2, once you get through soloman shrine or something it's like this game can fuck off forever.

 

[Karsticles]

The Wiiu is the only current gen consoles with games worth a damn tbh.

I feel like this is incredibly obvious, and shouldn't need to be said. Yet the world of gaming needs to be told.

 

[JeTmAn81]

I feel like this is incredibly obvious, and shouldn't need to be said. Yet the world of gaming needs to be told.

Well, it's outselling the Xbox One so that's something.

 

[MarkMan]

Keep an eye out for the Capcom Cup Asia Qualifiers in Taiwan this weekend.

MCZ Daigo and Zhi will be attending and attempting to steal points from the RZR event. Bwahaha.

Going to be a great event! GamerBee, Xian, Fuudo and Daigo in the same event!?

 

[Sayah]

Wii U currently has the best library but it also had a year lead. PS4 will surpass it eventually as far as quality titles go.

Mario Kart 8, Pikmin 3.....those games should have been launch titles. I imagine Wii U sales would have been a lot better if they were. Third parties had a strong showing at the Wii U launch. Nintendo didn't. Now Nintendo has a strong showing and third parties are no where to be seen. Can't win.

 

[FormallyFamicom]

Wii U currently has the best library but it also had a year lead. PS4 will surpass it eventually as far as quality titles go.

Mario Kart 8, Pikmin 3.....those games should have been launch titles. I imagine Wii U sales would have been a lot better if they were. Third parties had a strong showing at the Wii U launch. Nintendo didn't. Now Nintendo has a strong showing and third parties are no where to be seen. Can't win.

Third parties (save for perhaps, Ubisoft) weren't going to stick around anyway unless Wii U would've put up Wii numbers, which was never going to happen. Really though, every developer seemed like they got caught with their pants down this gen so far, but it has hurt NIntendo the most.

 

[Dahbomb]

PS4 will have surpassed the Wii U by March 2015.

 

[Onemic]

I just ordered a CronusMax because that stupidity. I own an Xbox One and can't use Xbox controllers/Arcade Stick because MadCatz struck a deal with Microsoft.

I heard the CronusMax has input lag and tendencies to d/c the other player at random times in games

 

[Kumubou]

Third parties (save for perhaps, Ubisoft) weren't going to stick around anyway unless Wii U would've put up Wii numbers, which was never going to happen. Really though, every developer seemed like they got caught with their pants down this gen so far, but it has hurt NIntendo the most.

I don't think they would have stuck around even if it did do Wii numbers. Remember that while the Wii sold a ton of hardware, the general trend was for third party games to underperform. The difference being that it was at least possible for a third-party Wii game to do very well, like Guitar Hero or Just Dance.

I'm not even sure how this is relevant to fighting games, other than the fact that the only ones you're seeing on there are TTT2, the new Smash game and Pokken.

I heard the CronusMax has input lag and tendencies to d/c the other player at random times in games

It also has a tendency to fry USB ports (at least the old ones did). Seriously, if you ever plan on going to an event, don't use this as it's banned everywhere.

 

[Karsticles]

Well, it's outselling the Xbox One so that's something.

Net sales, but not monthly sales. The latter matters far more, given the time advantage the Wii U has.

Though I dream monthly of the Wii U topping the charts.

 

[JeTmAn81]

Net sales, but not monthly sales. The latter matters far more, given the time advantage the Wii U has.

Though I dream monthly of the Wii U topping the charts.

I was going off a sales website I visited which did list the Wii as barely outselling the X1 for the week, behind the 3DS and PS4.

 

[Karsticles]

I was going off a sales website I visited which did list the Wii as barely outselling the X1 for the week, behind the 3DS and PS4.

Is it a banned site that makes up crap?

 

[Sayah]

Third parties (save for perhaps, Ubisoft) weren't going to stick around anyway unless Wii U would've put up Wii numbers, which was never going to happen. Really though, every developer seemed like they got caught with their pants down this gen so far, but it has hurt NIntendo the most.

The problem is that the big, AAA franchises that the mainstream salivates over are not coming to Wii U consoles. They certainly exist. Look at Tomb Raider, Witcher 3, Watch Dogs, GTAV, Destiny even. But I guess that's always been a Nintendo problem. There are definitely ways, however, to make games sell better on Nintendo platforms. They just need to be a little more open and creative.

Just featuring Link in SCII made the GameCube the best selling version. Now they are trying similar things I suppose by giving Bayonetta costumes but I doubt that's going to be as successful.

I don't think they would have stuck around even if it did do Wii numbers. Remember that while the Wii sold a ton of hardware, the general trend was for third party games to underperform. The difference being that it was at least possible for a third-party Wii game to do very well, like Guitar Hero or Just Dance.

I'm not even sure how this is relevant to fighting games, other than the fact that the only ones you're seeing on there are TTT2, the new Smash game and Pokken.


It also has a tendency to fry USB ports (at least the old ones did). Seriously, if you ever plan on going to an event, don't use this as it's banned everywhere.

The Wii had a lot of great quality third party support. A LOT of hidden gems developed exclusively for that system that you won't find else where.

 

[Kadey]

The problem with Nintendo consoles which is a curse is that no matter what third parties throw on them, the games will always be overshadowed by Nintendo games.

 

[Dahbomb]

The problem with Nintendo consoles which is a curse is that no matter what third parties throw on them, the games will always be overshadowed by Nintendo games.

That's not always true... after all Resident Evil 4 did release on the Gamecube.

 

[Kadey]

RE4 was released on a billion platforms.

Remember Mikami was supposed to cut his head off if it went to another platform?

 

[Dlent]

RE4 was released on a billion platforms.

Remember Mikami was supposed to cut his head off if it went to another platform?

He specified that he would do it with a chainsaw, and then it was announced that it would be released on PS2 as well before the GameCube version even came out.

Good to know that the execs at Capcom have always worked well with the developers.

 

[Karsticles]

The problem with Nintendo consoles which is a curse is that no matter what third parties throw on them, the games will always be overshadowed by Nintendo games.

It is a weird kind of phenomenon:
1) Nintendo makes some of the best games out there.
2) Third parties can't compete with the quality.
3) Third parties swap to other platforms with weak first party competition.
4) People stop buying Nintendo consoles in favor of other platforms.

 

[enzo_gt]

It is a weird kind of phenomenon:
1) Nintendo makes some of the best games out there.
2) Third parties can't compete with the quality.
3) Third parties swap to other platforms with weak first party competition.
4) People stop buying Nintendo consoles in favor of other platforms.

This is some funky reasoning and cause and effect if I've ever seen any, straight from the premise.

Not really tryna get into another argument over this because there's no changing people's minds when they have premises like that, but it really is sad seeing that no matter what the circumstance people make excuses for poor decisions Nintendo makes when it comes to supporting or facilitating 3rd party support. It's like a brick wall in any Nintendo thread.

 

[Kadey]

It's been that way since the N64 days. Nintendo needs to recapture that dominance they had from every angle during the SNES days.

 

[RockTurtle]

they had it with wii and squambled it

 

[Dahbomb]

RE4 was released on a billion platforms.

Remember Mikami was supposed to cut his head off if it went to another platform?

What does it matter that its released on a billion platforms?

We are talking about 3rd party games here and RE4 despite being 3rd party enjoyed good success and critical claim on Gamecube.

 

[Sayah]

It is a weird kind of phenomenon:
1) Nintendo makes some of the best games out there.
2) Third parties can't compete with the quality.
3) Third parties swap to other platforms with weak first party competition.
4) People stop buying Nintendo consoles in favor of other platforms.

I disagree with this.

Third parties don't "swap" to other platforms for that reason.

Tekken, DMC, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, etc. were largely Sony exclusive for a large part of their history. This isn't because the franchises lacked quality and were cowering away from releasing on Nintendo platforms.

It pretty much boils down to this: The Xbox brand generally relies on third party multiplatform titles with extremely lacking first party support. Nintendo relies on its own first party titles with extremely lacking third party support.

Sony, alternatively, has almost always had both strong 1st party and 3rd party support.
And no, I'm not a Sony fanboy.

 

[Mr. X]

Did ya'll see that Bayo 2 footage?

 

[Kadey]

A few games mean nothing. RE4 despite being an all time favorite game is still peanuts compared to Nintendo offerings. It just goes to show you a game has to go up and beyond to have overwhelming success on modern Nintendo consoles.

Name one game on the Wii or Wii U which had success equivalent to a Nintendo game.

 

[Sayah]

Did ya'll see that Bayo 2 footage?

Looks amazing. Also, dialogue is still very cheesy............and I love it.