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Final Fantasy XII demo impressions thread

DarienA said:
...that is so not the point. I can't speak for anyone one else, but I'm perfectly capable of playing Baldur's Gate... I just have zero interest in it.
Ditto. I don't have any problem playing it, it's just not to my tastes. I played through half of Star Ocean 3 and half of Tales of Symphonia, but I hated party members being out of my control in those games too. I also don't mind the swing towards real-time-ish battle systems as long as there's enough turn based to go around (and there still is right now). BUT, I'm still disappointed that it's infected the FF series. FFX-2 was a step in the wrong direction for me (with the battles not pausing), and this is just a huge leap in that same direction. Again, just as far as I'm concerned.

edit: Sure a lot of turn based fights end up being nothing but pressing the attack button, and it's not that much different here. The AI is just pressing the attack button for me. It may sound small, but it's a big deal to me. I want each characters turn to play out as there own. I want to see how much damage they are doing. I want to see them attack with their weapon. I just want the option, and it's not here. Close, but not here.
 
Zilch said:
You're being totally irrational. This is a big change for the FF series and obviously when something changes it takes awhile for you to adjust to it.

To be nitpicky, this change has been around for 4 years. =)

I get the demo soon! =D
 
edit: Sure a lot of turn based fights end up being nothing but pressing the attack button, and it's not that much different here. The AI is just pressing the attack button for me. It may sound small, but it's a big deal to me. I want each characters turn to play out as there own. I want to see how much damage they are doing. I want to see them attack with their weapon. I just want the option, and it's not here. Close, but not here.

Select the "Wait" battle system, TURN OFF everyone's Gambits. Problem solved. No one will attack unless you order them to do so.
 
Zilch said:
Select the "Wait" battle system, TURN OFF everyone's Gambits. Problem solved. No one will attack unless you order them to do so.

Thats what I was confused on. People are complaining about how characters are still attacking but in my head i'm saying "Don't you have to turn off the gambit system to?".
 
Yep. That's the way I prefer to play. I like control over my party too. The "Wait" demo is a lot more fun than the "Active" demo, to me. I guess the difference between me and the people complaining is that I like games like KOTOR and I hate hate hate random battles.
 
Zilch said:
Select the "Wait" battle system, TURN OFF everyone's Gambits. Problem solved. No one will attack unless you order them to do so.
Once you select attack, they go on auto attack. It doesn't ask you what command you want to give after their "turn" is over. It only ever pauses if you press the X button. I thought the Wait mode was going to auto-pause at the completion of each character's turn.
Zilch said:
I guess the difference between me and the people complaining is that I like games like KOTOR and I hate hate hate random battles.
I finished KOTOR and enjoyed it, inspite of the battle system, not because of it. I can see all the points you guys are making, but it's not goign to change how I feel about the demo, although I do enjoy the discussion :)
 
Trav said:
Once you select attack, they go on auto attack. It doesn't ask you what command you want to give after their "turn" is over. It only ever pauses if you press the X button. I thought the Wait mode was going to auto-pause at the completion of each character's turn.

I actually find this method of control much more enjoyable. There's no need to endlessly choose attack over and over again. It lets me examine the progression of the battle and I'm only bothered with the menu, and the battle pausing, when I feel a change of tactics is in order or I need to use a certain spell or other special command. Otherwise, they do the most efficient thing which is to do a general attack.
 
Trav said:
Once you select attack, they go on auto attack. It doesn't ask you what command you want to give after their "turn" is over. It only ever pauses if you press the X button. I thought the Wait mode was going to auto-pause at the completion of each character's turn.

Ah. Actually, that would be a nice option to have, now that you mention it. Hopefully there will be some sort of Gambit you can use in the final game that makes a character take one turn then totally stop.

I finished KOTOR and enjoyed it, inspite of the battle system, not because of it. I can see all the points you guys are making, but it's not goign to change how I feel about the demo, although I do enjoy the discussion :)

That's alright. I know you guys have your preferences (although Darien should at least try it before he decides he hates it :p). I'm just trying to present a case for the system in FFXII cuz personally I think it's great.
 
Mejilan said:
Active >>>>>>> (x100)>>>> Wait

I disagree. With wait you have time to plan a strategy... youd on't have to fumble for the right command or key combination or whatever. I've ALWAYS been much better at turn based games than real time ones. Atleast there is an option for both, which is how it should be.
 
full disclosure: there are still two colossi between me and the demo.

So given the above, I don't have an opinion on how the demo plays, per se.

What make it a step forward for me is how it makes the world more immersive. This is more than just the battle system, but that's part of it. Seeing the enemies wandering around, fighting each other, and not having a shatter-screen/load before entering combat make the world seem like more of a living place.

I hope that movement and positioning are actually relevant, and it doesn't seem clear if/how much they are from comments so far, but just having the whole game flow without screen changes is a step in the right direction. I'm a big fan of turn-based in general and was hoping that something a bit closer to a tactical rpg would have been used for the combat engine, but I'm still looking forward to trying this out.

What I'm concerned about is that "wait" mode is going to be too easy. If you balance the game for "active" mode, "wait" is going to be a complete cakewalk unless difficulty adjusts dynamically with the settings you're using.
 
Zilch said:
That's alright. I know you guys have your preferences (although Darien should at least try it before he decides he hates it :p). I'm just trying to present a case for the system in FFXII cuz personally I think it's great.

Ok I'm gonna have to kill somebody up in here now....
 
With the caveat that I haven't played this out of the way I do want to say that I'm not liking the sound of the new combat engine. MMO combat is so damned boring. It's why you generally have to find a group to get any enjoyment out of a MMORPG.

I'm going to have to play the demo myself before making an assement but I'm not going in real enthused.
 
Zilch said:
You're being totally irrational. This is a big change for the FF series and obviously when something changes it takes awhile for you to adjust to it. This style of battle has it's positive and negative points just like 'traditional' turn-based combat does.

Imagine if the scenario was the exact opposite... people (like yourself) would be exclaiming that the battles were so slow, and "how stupid is it that my party lines up to fight the enemies who are in another line?" and "why the hell can't I see where the enemies are before I fight them?" and "all I do is hit X ad naeseum til the bad guys are dead... this is so tedious" and "these random battles really kill my interest in exploring areas, this sucks."

So get some perspective. This system isn't better than another system, it's just different. If you can't live with that, the FF series may no longer be for you. *shrug*

I understand the other point of view. Most games and system can be seen under different angles. I understand your point of view there, but i'm interested into what it brings for guys like you gameplay wise over the style i prefer (the old one).

"There's no need to endlessly choose attack over and over again. It lets me examine the progression of the battle and I'm only bothered with the menu, and the battle pausing, when I feel a change of tactics is in order or I need to use a certain spell or other special command. Otherwise, they do the most efficient thing which is to do a general attack."

Here Tereisias had a point imo. What he just said is exactly the kind of argument i want to hear. I have to agree with what he just said here.
 
Himuro said:
I felt exactly like this until I saw the updates they did to FFXII's battle system for this demo last week. Yesterday when I popped it in I was totally enthusiastic.

Which I why I want to give the combat engine a chance to change my mind.
 
Himuro said:
I felt exactly like this until I saw the updates they did to FFXII's battle system for this demo last week. Yesterday when I popped it in I was totally enthusiastic.

So they have made additional changes since the US demo with DQ8?
 
FFXII am massively singleplayer offline rpg total.

I like it. The visuals are PS2 good, so while the game won't blow you away with its graphics, it still looks plenty nice. The battles are more engaging and there's some real potential for strategy in more complex enemy encounters. Positioning in particular appears to play a large role against enemies with area-of-effect abilities. I wonder if there are going to be action-interruption skills to hurt healer/caster types of monsters? Active battles are too crazy, I know I'll be choosing Wait Mode when the game comes out in 20xx.
 
The area of affect thing I feel is very important. Sure, huge graphically impressive spells are nice, but when they conveniently do nothing to your characters it just seems silly. Making you susceptible to your own attacks not only adds an element of strategy to how you do your spell casting but finally makes spells seem "of the world" and less phony, like this is how magic would work in the real world. Sure it's magically materializing fire, but it'll still burn your butt if you don't move out of its way - regardless of whether you cast it yourself or not.

It does make one wonder how the big "dramatic" battles go, will we still see stuff like Sephiroth's "Destory the solar system" attack during the end game?
 
Yeah, I was really disappointed in casting Blizzara and not getting anything more than a little circle appearing on an enemy... even the mid level spells have looked cool in the earliest FF games! The battle system reminds me of some weird cross between Parasite Eve, Vagrant Story and an MMO. Not sure I'm too keen on that, I am hoping it'll grow on me. Not looking too forward to the plot, either... kindom politics and history lessons just don't do it for me the way that cyberpunk or postmodern dream worlds do (hopefully Square will prove me wrong)... I liked the graphics and the fact that it feels like there are gonna be actual dungeons to the game, the game gave a fairly good dungeon hack feel which has been sorely missing from the FF series. Just hope they scratch that mission structure and tighten up the battle system.
 
Finally got to play this and loved it. It's a little too easy though... The wait for the game is even harder now ; ;
 
I like it, a lot. It's only "too easy" if you use Gambit Mode. It's so nice to finally see a different battle system in a popular traditional RPG. Playing DQ8 shortly after would have once felt normal, but now it feels like a major step back, and it makes me want FFXII even more; I hope it really isn't getting delayed again.

The graphics are very good, love the gameplay, the music is AWESOME (sounds like FFT for obvious reasons). The characters seem really cool and have excellent design. The enemies (and how you get to more enemies) impressed me. I've noticed people complaining about how you have to 'properly' eliminate enemies, but it's so much nicer than the old fashioned random battle. Enough of that. Playing FFX, I always thought that while the slightly improved battle system was nice, it was still, for the most part, a good generation behind and was in need of a major overhaul. I can only hope they continue to improvise for the final game and the next single player FF.

I give it a 4 out of 5 if only because you didn't even get a glimpse into truly exploring a stage and being in a town or something; everything in the demo is a battle. Oh, and the textures, while very detailed for the PS2, are in desperate need for some mip-mapping (just like FFX), but 4MB of VRAM makes that hard.

FFXII can't come soon enough.
 
Himuro said:
Fuck you! I love her butt. When she walks, her cheeks actually move from side to side and it's like ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Like I said, the sluttiest FF character since Tifa. :D
Tifa was all about the titties, but Fran wants you to see the junk shakin' in the trunk!
 
Diablos said:
Like I said, the sluttiest FF character since Tifa. :D
Tifa was all about the titties, but Fran wants you to see the junk shakin' in the trunk!
Ass is class and tits is shits

Booty over Booby
 
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asheshumps0hs.jpg
 
I think the point of the demo was just to give us a general idea of how the game's battle mechanics work while showing off a couple of neat spell effects and summons. For those complaining about the ease of battles, I doubt there's a chance of having holy, flare, and the second-tier elemental spells so early on; based on characters' HP totals I'd guess they're only a few levels young (but for all I know, character progression isn't handled the same way as it has been in the past). They could also have increased weapon damage and decreased enemy damage. Heck, the areas available in the demo may not even be in the final product!

Personally, I like the battle system, even though it's essentially the exact same thing with added factors of positioning and area of effect possibilities. Wait gave me all the control I wanted and my party members never faltered in carrying out whatever commands I issued to them.

I want this game now.

Bluetsunami: Ashe doesn't look like that anymore. They gave her more womanly facial features and light blonde hair. I prefer the old look, but whatever.
 
Takuan said:
Bluetsunami: Ashe doesn't look like that anymore. They gave her more womanly facial features and light blonde hair. I prefer the old look, but whatever.

That really really sucks. As you can see from the pictures that i've showcased, I love Ashes form (in the ones rendered then). Why must they change a good thing ;_;

Although there is a clip I saw of Vaan catching Ashe and see still seemed to have that "healthy" figure.
 
She still has a healthy figure, her hair is just different and her ass isn't hanging out of her rubberband skirt.

Also, man, the summons final move still look amazing. Jesus Christ, the one Bethea or whatever did was fucking incredible
 
Amir0x said:
She still has a healthy figure, her hair is just different and her ass isn't hanging out of her rubberband skirt.

Thats very good to hear. Dissappointed about the "ass hanging out of the rubberband skirt" removal but I guess that was more or less a horny Japanese artist concept render. Good to hear about the summons to. Can't wait to see what the high powered obscure ones look like.
 
Finally got my hands on the demo tonight, and played through both modes a few times. Since I'm being asked for impressions by a few friends, and since there still seems to be a bit of confusion about how a few things work, I figured I'd just cover it all in this post:

Wait Mode: for thinking players.
"Wait Mode" works a bit differently here than in previous Final Fantasy titles. Now, instead of only pausing the ATB bars while you're tinkering around in the sub-menus (magic, item, etc), things completely freeze the minute you open the command menu via the "X" button. ATB bars (for both your party and your enemies), attack animations, background effects -- it all freezes completely. Closest comparison I can think of is the Grandia games, when prompted for a command input, or the KotOR titles when you hit the "White" button.

Basically, this gives you an infinite amount of time to plan out your attacks, as absolutely nothing will progress until you either pick a command, or exit the menu. You can also open the command menu at any time during the quest, even if all of your characters are presently attacking... and, if timed correctly, you can even queue up a second command for a character. In result, you can set your own pace here, even more-so than you could in any other previous ATB-governed FF.

Other than that, combat works rather similar to that in FFXI. Once engaged, you and your party members will continue to do a base "Attack" action everytime your ATB bar fills, until told to do otherwise. When opening the menu, you're given the typical command list for the character you're currently controlling (Attack, Magic, Summon, Item, etc... you know the drill), along with the option to hit left or right on the D-Pad to cycle between your party members' command lists (ala Chrono Trigger).

Active Mode: for thrill-seekers.
"Active Mode" is pretty much the polar opposite. Absolutely nothing you do, save for summoning Espers, pauses the action. Instead, everything continues as if it was proceeding in real-time, so much so that I doubt most people will even realize that it's still a turn-based system. ;) Given that, this is a much more frantic mode, as you're having to dive through the menus to pick spells and items on the fly, while still trying to keep your eye on the action.

Other than that, pretty much everything else works the same way here as it does in "Wait Mode," save for one thing: queuing up attacks is much easier.

To explain what I mean:
Once your ATB bar fills, your character is prompted to carry out whatever command s/he was told to do, and the word "ACTION" appears below the bar. Once this appears, even if your character hasn't executed the action yet, you're able to queue up a second command, which makes the word "NEXT" appear beside that character's ATB bar. With this, once your character is finished executing it's current command, it will automatically start charging up for that second action in the queue.

What makes this easier in "Active Mode" is that while you're fiddling around in the menus, the action doesn't stop. For instance, say you have Fran set to cast "Cure" on Balthier. Then, while her ATB bar is charging up, you select "Cure" again and hover the cursor above Ashe. As soon as her ATB bar fills and the word "ACTION" appears, you hit X to select the target (Ashe), entering the second "Cure" command in the "NEXT" queue. The result is a sort of "chain-casting" effect, as once that first "Cure" spell is fired off, she'll instantly begin executing the next.

While the queue option is available in "Wait Mode," as well, it's impossible to do the above as all of the ATB bars freeze the second you open the menu. :P


Getting away from the "Wait" & "Active" thing here, there are a few other systems present in the demo that aren't getting mentioned very often:

Aggro Schemes
Much like Final Fantasy XI, certain enemies simply don't wait to get attacked before being hostile towards you. And, much like in that game, there are multiple ways in which they aggro, indicated in the demo by the color of the enemy's HP meter/bar:

• Green => No Aggro
Any enemy with a Green HP meter isn't hostile at all, and will go about it's business until you engage it. An example in the demo is the Mandragora.

• Yellow => Magic Aggro
Any enemy with a Yellow HP meter isn't hostile at all, until you manually engage it, or cast a spell near it. This includes White or Green magic, as any type of spell cast will gain the enemy's attention. An example in the demo is the Bomb.

• Red => Sight Aggro
Any enemy with a Red HP meter is completely hostile, and if you enter their range of sight, they won't hesitate to attack you. This aggro type seems to be the most prevelant, if the demo is anything to go by. An example in the demo is the Sleipnir.

It's hard to say if there will be anymore types in the final game, but there is one missing that was also present in Final Fantasy XI: Sound Aggro. It's possible that this type will be present, along with a variety of spells (likely Green Magic) or abilities that allow you to avoid being detected by Sight, Sound, etc. We'll just have to wait and see. :)

Gambits
"Gambits" are pretty much FFXII's "AI Routines," only instead of being a bullet-point on an options menu, they're something you equip. It's hard to say how customizable these will end up being in the final release, but already in the demo you can see the effects of different types.

For instance, in "Wait Mode," the Gambits tell your party members to instantly attack whichever enemies you engage, hostile or not. So, the second you target an enemy (with the "Attack" action, at least), your allies will follow your lead and do exactly the same.

Meanwhile, in "Active Mode," the Gambits tell your party members to only engage enemies that aggro the party. In result, when you engage a non-hostile enemy, your party members basically sit around twiddling their thumbs until your attack connects, and the targeted enemy aggros the party. Essentially, it wastes a turn. :\ If a hostile enemy aggros the party right-off, however, they'll instantly engage it and start charging up their attacks.

There are many other effects present in the demo from the Gambits system, like focusing on the enemy the Party Leader (ie: who you're controlling) targets, or casting Cure spells to keep party HP above a certain level, to auto-attacking after finishing whichever command they were prompted to perform, etc etc.

Also, you can quickly and easily toggle Gambits On & Off via the basic command menu, to essentially take full control of your party on-the-fly. This is already beneficial in the demo when you're running by Bombs with low HP, as with the Gambits turned on, Fran will be attempting to cast curative magic on your party, leading to Bomb aggro. Oops! :P

Summons
While the game has gone back to using the FFVI term for summons, "Espers," the summon system works more like Final Fantasy XI's than anything. For instance, once summoned, the Esper replaces your allies, and runs around as an uncontrollable party member. In result, the summoner is the only controllable character left, and is thus made your "Party Leader," even if you were controlling somebody else prior to the summoning.

Other than that, Espers are basically a uber-party member, following along behind you and executing some really brutal attacks (killing some enemies in a single hit). Difference from FFXI here is that they don't slowly tick down your MP meter, and instead work off a timer, indicated by a few circles that slowly disappear in the lower right-hand corner. Once the timer ticks down completely, the summon executes one final, screen-clearing attack, and then disappears.

Those belly-aching for "dazzling spell effects" will be happy to know that all of the action pauses while both summoning an Esper, and during it's final, screen-clearing attack. These sequences are very pretty, and last a good amount of time (I swear the screen-clearing attack lasted a minute or so...), to the point of being actually a bit over-done... which seems to be what you guys are looking for. ;)


With all of the explanations out of the way, my view on things:

I've never been one to think that Final Fantasy needed to "change," or "evolve." I've always thought that the series has changed enough with each iteration, and that there was simply no need to go and reinvent the wheel with the series. Final Fantasy has always worked, and there was never anything broken, so why fix it? ...But even going into this with that mindset, I can't help but sit here and think:

I love the direction this took.

Even just looking at the battle system, I think the inclusion of the "Wait Mode" will go an awful long way to keeping series' veterans, whom are attached to the traditional "Dick around in the menus, no harm, no foul." style of play, quite happy. They get their traditional, turn-based set-up, and the game didn't have to sacrifice anything from the "Active Mode" side to offer it.

That said, I'm not much of a fan of "Wait Mode," as while it gives you infinite prep-time to plan things out, I think it simply keeps the action bogged down too much. "Active Mode" all the way for me, as I just love everything being so snappy. And I love being able to cursor hover to chain-cast, or change actions mid-charge without having to have the game freeze the action on me, etc etc.

Even putting that aspect aside, the concept of combining Final Fantasy XI/MMO elements into a single-player title had me a little skeptical at times, making me wonder just how much it'd play like FFXI, or how much of the grind, downtime, etc would make it into the game. But I'm happy to say that absolutely none of the downsides of that game are present here. Instead, they've only carried over things that help make the game a deeper experience, like the aggro schemes, the experience chains, and so on and so forth.

All of that said, I still don't think this is so much an "evolution" of the series, as it is just a great alternative direction for the series to go in. I think they've pretty much aced the combination of styles here, and I can't wait for the final release, especially to see how much more in-depth the new gameplay systems go...

...In other words: I'm sold. :)
 
^^^Dear God!^^^

Thanks for your impressions Scott! I've read through all of it and I think i'm going to like this Demo (once I get DQ8). I love how the're implimenting Summons.
 
in case some of you might have missed it, gametrailers.com has a relatively short video of the t-rex boss fight from the demo up. Shows a decent amount of the battle system. Looks just like FFXI to me.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
in case some of you might have missed it, gametrailers.com has a relatively short video of the t-rex boss fight from the demo up. Shows a decent amount of the battle system. Looks just like FFXI to me.

Yeah that might be because it was developed by the same people.
 
Scott's impression are bang on (just FYI, the saying is, "As a result", not "In result" :) ).

From playing the demo though, unlike Scott, I came away from it preferring the Wait Mode. Please note, I've only played the two scenarios through once, so if something I say is wrong I apologize.

I prefer Wait mainly for two reasons:

1) The menu pause allows me to give everyone in the party an initial command before they engage the enemy. Whereas in in Active I felt everyone rushed in too quickly for me to get a good initial grip on the battle.

2) When you've chosen "Attack" previously and then have a character do something else like a spell, the character automatically goes back to doing "Attack". As far as I could tell this does NOT happen when you're playing in Active - if you cast a spell the character just sits there regardless of whether they were doing "Attack" previously or not (this seems like an odd mechanic to me since having them immediately go back to "Attack" seems it would be most useful in Active mode than in Wait mode so you don't inadvertantly have a character sitting around doing nothing).

Even from Scott's description I'm still not clear on how the command queuing actually works (ie. the Action/Next stuff). As he said, I was able to do it easily in Active Mode, but since I'm not sure of the actual mechanics of it I'm still unclear as to why it's so difficult to actually do in Wait mode (though it's not nearly as necessary in Wait Mode anyway).

I could see myself playing through the game twice just to do one play through using each mode of the battle system and see how the whole game plays differently between the two.

In any case, I've said numerous times that I adored the FFXI battle system and world exploration (regardless of my other issues with the game) and would love a single-player version of it - Squeenix has deemed me worthy to bestow such a thing upon me. If the world is large enough and has enough "explorable" land mass it will definately rank up there in the RPG ratings - if the world is organized like and has zones the size of FFX though, it will feel too restricted given the new battle system and non-random battle aspects of the game - the zones in this thing need to be at least as big as your standard FFXI zone.
 
Ok playing through the demo acouple more times(shame on me for putting DQ8 on hold) I keep thinking the game might be shorter because of the quicker battles(in wait or active mode) and the way mana regens up from the start of the game. Anyways just wanted to throw that thought out here on the thread.
 
Riddler said:
Ok playing through the demo acouple more times(shame on me for putting DQ8 on hold) I keep thinking the game might be shorter because of the quicker battles(in wait or active mode) and the way mana regens up from the start of the game. Anyways just wanted to throw that thought out here on the thread.
I dunno...it's not like a quick battle system is the only factor in determining a game's length...for what it's worth though, I know I'd rather have an RPG of FFX's length with a quick battle system than one like FF9 and those gawdawful 5 minute long fights
 
Considering people are putting 100+ hours into DQ8 - you know, that game they gave you when you bought the FFXII demo - and it has one of the fastest battle systems around kind of negates the whole length based on battle-system argument.
 
teiresias said:
Considering people are putting 100+ hours into DQ8 - you know, that game they gave you when you bought the FFXII demo - and it has one of the fastest battle systems around kind of negates the whole length based on battle-system argument.

Uh as far as I heard the later normal fights are like boss battles and the game requires quite a bit of leveling.
 
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