Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn - Beta Phase 3 Impression: Phase 4 August
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Uh, that IS the class system as it is now. The "Job" is just a coat of paint put over the "Class" which narrows the focus (like an advanced job). And yes, you can switch between them to serve purposes and tailor yourself to groups/situations.
Reality is, this game already covers every class "type" an MMO needs. Tanks, Healing, Support, and DD with many of them mixing them up. Any jobs added at this point is just extra goodies.
dakkumauji
Member
This needs to real now.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I was talking about jobs needing to fit a class mold. I have no idea how you made the leap that you did.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
1 handed sword has never been a good DD in any game ever, sorry
dual wielding excluded obviously
You didn't play Fire Emblem, then. Or Zelda. Or Diablo. Kingdoms of Amalur, etc.
Lots of games put one handers to good use and make them powerful. Just because MMO guys have no imagination, doesn't mean it hasn't been done in other games. Action RPGs generally make using a regular sword powerful. The issue with MMOs is that they don't know what to do with the free hand. So generally it leans into dual wielding (sword and something (dagger, another sword, mace, etc.). I'm okay with having a free hand as long as I can kick ass with what I have. Generally, figures in fantasy use a one handed sword, so this isn't some strange concept.
That wouldn't even be an issue if they had a better system that didn't lock things down depending on what weapon you're using. People like to use specific weapons as they have done traditionally in other games and this system they have now really limits things. Either way, swords are popular and should have a damage dealing option.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Of course they do. They need to. Jesus.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
theSlacker
Member
That is because of normally the main character being a generic sword user, so you have to make it somewhat effective. Also Zelda games don't make a good example for this since the two handed swords normally outclass 1 handed there as well.
To your last point: Yeah but kinda too late for that train, gotta deal with the hand we have been dealt. Honestly though, the lack of even more 1 handed sword uses isn't even on the list of things that this system does poorly.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Xux
Member
Yep, Curtana, Spharai, Bravura, and Gae Bolg are tied in Physical Damage with 44.Well if I remember right damage from skills is based on weapon damage, not the dps stat
Heh, heh. In history people used one sword. And Zelda had one two-handed sword in OoT (I don't remember another sword in any of the other Zelda games). Every other game, the Master Sword was king. And there's nothing generic about kickin' ass with a sword. Longswords in AD&D were the workhorse of the game. Fast, easy to use, and powerful for the speed. Bastard swords being better in some cases due to flexibility. So I always think video games make them "weak" because they can't figure out how to balance them as most people would go one-handed if they had the option...just like in D&D.
As I said, swords are popular and powerful, so there's no reason to not have a damage dealing sword user.
Well, that's why I mentioned it in the first place. If they're gonna limit us, then they should have some options for people. There are other problems, sure, but the lack of a sword using damage dealer is mine. I'm okay with other things at the moment.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
What? I'm starting to think that you're trolling at this point.
You're trying to push polearm for SAM instead of GK because it's an existing class mold. That's the problem in a nutshell.
And what weapon would you suggest for your class that covers THF and NIN? I don't want some generic weapon for NIN and GLD already took dagger anyway.
GLD is a great class for THF, lol.
Chie Satonaka
Member
Week two: dun.
I had a lot of trouble finding stuff to do when I switched jobs in week one, but this week I got this quest overload after I did all three of the dungeons for the main story questline. I still have a couple I didn't turn in, and I'm level 20 Pug now.
I'm trying to decide how much I'm going to play this weekend. I just don't want to wear it all out before release, but my friends and I are having a blast.
I had a lot of trouble finding stuff to do when I switched jobs in week one, but this week I got this quest overload after I did all three of the dungeons for the main story questline. I still have a couple I didn't turn in, and I'm level 20 Pug now.
I'm trying to decide how much I'm going to play this weekend. I just don't want to wear it all out before release, but my friends and I are having a blast.
theSlacker
Member
Overloading on more classes just to have more then one 1-handed sword user would be one. There are a ton more different weapons that could use the attention first really when sword already has representation.
Well, we're talking about personal preference. I can't speak for any other weapon or any other person. Only me. I don't like how I'm limited to tank as a sword user. Having to level up with a couple of sword moves and a bunch of tanking moves is just not cool. Sure they need a tanking class, but it's not working for me. I don't care about prioritizing since I can only talk about my own experience with the game. The first time I did this we couldn't even use a sword until we leveled to 15 or something, then we could switch. I leveled up as a spear user, then switched over to sword user. At least then I had a few damage dealing moves. The system they have now is just not working for the way I like to play, and I'm voicing my frustration about it. Everyone else's mileage may vary.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
There's no reason for classes except to appease 1.0 players and I frankly don't value their opinions anyway. Allowing you to choose a limited number of skills from other jobs would work just as well and would allow each job to be more distinct.
I'm aware, I play the game =). What I mean is, I wonder if Scholar/Summoner will be the standard of a class not getting a different type of the same weapon class. Let's say, perhaps a GLA, in anticipation of DRK, get's great swords.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Good, then there's no reason.
InfiniDragon
Member
1 handed sword has never been a good DD in any game ever, sorry
dual wielding excluded obviously
Yuri Lowell disagrees with you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFgcaHH8WoQ
For those wondering why he's hitting 1 HP per hit which seems counter to my argument, it's a skill you can turn on in-game to maximize combos and a mechanic called Fatal Strikes. Normally that dude would have gotten owned in seconds by Yuri's uberness and infinites.
EDIT: Oh, and Blueblood Sword in Demon's Souls owns face. So that's two right off the top of my head.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I don't agree with him on most of what he's said about classes and whatnot, but having seen the official forums, I would not say this is an unfair generalization at all. ;P
And, supposedly, every major content thing that happened in 1.0 under Yoshi-P was supposed to happen under Tanaka. It was all the system revamps that he ushered in.
So jobs were, apparently, always in the initial plan.
theSlacker
Member
Yeah, if you want to waste the game building a stat that only helps with that one weapon, and enjoy getting smashed by dragon bone.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Haha, well on the official forums it's mostly a few obnoxious posters stirring up shit. There are a lot of positive posters. Before that 15 minute cooldown on the forum post it was freaking annoying.
Honestly most of the complaining came from FF11 players not 1.0 players really and yes those posters are annoying.
I played 1.0 for a while *not all the way to end game mind you but I read up on most of it* and I sure as hell don't like most of the things in it. Half the time I'm on mumble I was giving counter arguments about the current version of the game in it's favor
Most of the LS seems to be enjoying the game a great deal now which is great 
Agreed. Its a bit messy, but they can easily continue to expand on whats there. There is nothing stopping them from introducing additional weapon choices, modifiying existing abilities to fit, and/or expanding the amount of exclusive skills each job has.
Its not something they have to worry about until they decide to introduce new jobs to existing classes.
InfiniDragon
Member
Not really since I was the one using the DBS.
But it's a good weapon if you're willing to put the points in, and some people (a lot of people actually) make builds in Souls around a single weapon.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
You weren't one of the people vigorously defending it on day one, were you?
Ah, guess not.
But gawd... the people damage-controlling the day one interface lag should stop having opinions.
Shouta
Member
Actually, it's the opposite. There's no reason for separate jobs. Everything that can be done for a fully separate job is done in this current system except for having a preferred weapon type. That can easily be fixed with a few adjustments like giving each class two weapons or allowing a job to equip a specialized job weapon after equipping the gem. There's way more flexibility currently than what happened in FFXI and in a way cuts down on the bloat.
Riposte
Member
I don't even want the same old shit for weapon/job combos. FF fans are silly and afraid of change on the most painless level.
SAM with polearm, NIN with h2h, RDM with gun(?), THF with whatever "Scout" will use (I hope it is something like crossbow). These could all be fresh takes on old ideas and, in the case of the first two, fit mechanically (the last two solving the problem of low grade melee bloating up that area of the game - FFXI had too much of that). If that pisses anyone off they deserved to be pissed.
SAM with polearm, NIN with h2h, RDM with gun(?), THF with whatever "Scout" will use (I hope it is something like crossbow). These could all be fresh takes on old ideas and, in the case of the first two, fit mechanically (the last two solving the problem of low grade melee bloating up that area of the game - FFXI had too much of that). If that pisses anyone off they deserved to be pissed.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Hell no I wasn't one of them, I was one of the haters. That game was a mess it was sorta playable at the end, but overall the revamp we got was VASTLY NEEDED.
Yup these would all be cool as well
Change isn't a bad thing and lots of current things fit into old classes as well.Edit btw did you see my pm
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Did that idiot ever buy the game?
Xux
Member
The whole weapon option thing seems pretty superficial to me. The roles and abilities are more important in my decision than the graphic of the weapon in their hand. An AF set, Job name, and Relic that call back to the older games is neat and all but ultimately unimportant in thinking about what should work in FFXIV.
Honestly, my favorite Jobs in FFXI were the ToAU and WotG jobs 'cause of their unique subsystems and skills instead of SWORD, GUN, PUNCHING AND ROBOT, DAGGERS, and MAGIC.
Honestly, my favorite Jobs in FFXI were the ToAU and WotG jobs 'cause of their unique subsystems and skills instead of SWORD, GUN, PUNCHING AND ROBOT, DAGGERS, and MAGIC.
Though, I'd flip my shit if the robot made the leap to FFXIV.
That could be awesome. And reading the meltdowns would be great entertainment.
It's a bit redundant, but it's mostly harmless too. The only problem is people being confused initially. It's sorta odd that they opted to get rid of the class exclusive gear. I was warming up to the idea of people making awesome perma-class characters or something.
Xux
Member
I know people like to lie about the 1.0 looking better but this thread on the Beta Forums is so amazing.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Except the brief period of SAM pentathrust spam insanity in FFXI.....
Riposte
Member
Considering that possibility makes wish combat classes were a little more open than they are now. They are still too specialized to make them different enough from jobs. Something like being able to grab one or two traits to enhance some of those cross-class actions might help. It would seem Yoshi-P doesn't want to use them for much more than a base for jobs and some situational utility.
RE: FFXIV 1.0's beauty
Although I think ARR is most certainly the better looking game, I give 1.0 more credit than others it seems. Its beauty was more subtle, if not too subtle. They put a lot more value in verisimilitude - like as if you were going to go out being an adventurer in Eorzea, you weren't necessarily going to find something exciting every 10 minutes and certainly not 10 minutes outside town. You were going to be in a place, in a world. Locations didn't necessarily exist to entertain you, they were actual places (they had to be vast and time-consuming, because the world was big). However there were interesting landmarks hidden within all the samey stuff. After barely making it alive through some monsters too difficult to kill, you may come across something otherworldly looking. You may see screenshots of this stuff from 1.0. Alone they don't really compare to giant glowing crystal towers you see in ARR, but inside that realistic world they were impressive discoveries (perhaps enhanced by the fact exploration was so damn difficult). (A shame they didn't get much use of those areas. I still don't understand the point of keeping insanely leveled enemies like that once you've decided you were going to throw those areas away.)
That's the thing with the original-original FFXIV, it was all about verisimilitude (even over fun design) and halfway trying to become a sandbox game (it seemed it might have in the future judging by some their future update plans). It was a really weird kind of a game for Final Fantasy developers to make, putting aside how poorly they executed it (any idea will be instantly killed by server-side menus lol). Consider how crafting involved every little piece. Or how classes were more strictly tied to the concept of "disciplines" and the in-setting schools/dojos/guilds you learned them and there originally appeared (before release, on the website) to be no real leveling, just learning skills and increasing FFXI-like skill levels. Storylines were also a bit lax and about hidden (mind-blowing) complexities compared to the more dramatic meteor saga and what we have in ARR (which is more shonen/JRPG kind of stuff now). Armor designs were trying to be more realistic before AF, of course. I even think ARR softened how "strong" the flavor of NPC speech was in the original game. Such a weird game to me. I don't think people appreciate just how weird because playing it sucked - it should be seen as baffling in more than one way I think.
I don't know if the world needs a game like that. It seems like it would be pretty dull in the best case scenario. I hope they do keep the good, grounded armor designs and that they never lose the flavor of the world (the localization team does a great job). Also there were a few visual tricks in 1.0 I want them to carry over. That would make it even more impressive, especially those vistas.
RE: Problems adapting class/jobs
It is a mistake to first look at the Armoury system with the expectation that jobs have to be exactly certain things (in this case FFXI jobs) before considering that it is a completely new system, as Final Fantasys often have new systems (some are even without jobs or weapon restrictions, how tradition works into it varies). So in this game there are disciplines (skill-sets) based on weapons which the jobs fit into entirely (rather than split off). You don't "fit" FFXI's THF into the system, you reinvent the overarching archetype for your new game. As each Final Fantasy way work very differently from the last that is an opportunity for a lot of subversion of old practices. Even if that means no daggers for THF in this case, that's hardly a loss (it can actually be a good thing if you replace it with something that makes the THF concept work better). To put it simply: There is no actual problem here, this is by design - a new design. The guy in the red hat doesn't have to use a sword because he did in the last game. That's a little bit absurd. We can talk about the pros and cons of the Armoury system once we get rid of the silly notion FFXIV has to fit old things where they don't belong.
In a comparison with FFXI, I think it makes for cleaner design with more room to grow it without getting messy. For one it appears easier to balance, even if that comes at the cost of some freedom. Classes are more complete packages, with abilities, weapon skills (which often decided if your job's strength in many situations, yet wasn't tied to your job), and spells folding into one set of "actions" (and traits being more standardized). As "actions" the previous three things I mentioned can be weighed as one thing. Super powerful spells like utsusemi or gigantic spell lists are easier to manage when you can treat them the same as a weapon skill or ability and all jobs have more or less the same amount - "sub jobs" no longer give you a seemingly random amount of goodness, you get exactly what you pay for in additional action slots. When they put their foot down on what jobs can use their few additional action slots, that gives them stronger control what a job can or cannot do (like or not, that means no more things like crazy RDM tank builds and whatnot).
Also, TAJ, it wouldn't kill you to be less of an asshole to people on this forum who happened to play a game you didn't like.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Teletraan1
Banned
haha great shot there.
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