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Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia |OT|

GeekyDad

Member
Well, I'm at the point in the game where you get control of both parties. I'm kind of enjoying it a little more now. I've read folks saying that the rock-paper-scissors thing is gone, but that's not really true. Flyers still seem weak to archers, and my knights definitely are taking a lot more damage from mages than melee units, but of course, they block most of the damage from melee. But I like that everything's not spelled out too much. I like the shrines/dungeons too. Breaks things up nicely. The item system is a neat change in that you can only have a single item. It's a fair trade off to the normal weapon system. It's been a while since I played Fates already (and never finished it), but I think I remember them removing the weapon-wear system, which I was, and still am not, happy about. To me, it's an important characteristic of the series. But for what this game is, it works nicely, I think.

Was about the shelf this, but I think it's won me over. Though I don't care for a fair amount of the dialogue and story, it doesn't get in the way as much as Fates did to me.
 

Thud

Member
Knights take heavy damage from magic because they basically have no resistance, all the damage goes through then.

Then again mages and clerics have low defense, so most of blunt force will go through.

There some bonuses in skills/abillities. For example anti-flier for extra damage against flying units, although not all enemy archers have that skill.

Magic spells all have a set accuracy to hit, but you can bring it up by support. They cost hp to cast and are uneffective by terrain changes.

I'm also at the point where I get control of both armies. The entombed from the sidequest hit pretty hard, managed through luckily.

Honestly the only thing I can really criticize are the lack luster maps taken straight from the source and the route all enemies objective. Then again it would have taken more time to design it accordingly. Given that it's a late 3DS game, they must have wanted to put it out asap. Either way it's a clear step up from the shadow dragon remake.
 

GeekyDad

Member
...Either way it's a clear step up from the shadow dragon remake.

I know that game always gets a lot of criticism, but I kinda still love it. It was a really nice Fire Emblem experience for me. Very little opportunity for grinding, tolerable story and dialogue, and the artwork -- though the sprites are probably an acquired taste -- I just loved. I just really liked that game. Felt really pure in a lot of ways. And I never had an opportunity to play the original. Plus, damn, it was on my DS -- convenience!
 

Lynx_7

Member
The maps and objectives are problematic, but as I've said before, I think the way the game handles skirmishes is worse. If you could just play through the campaign like any other Fire Emblem and had only to worry about a few skirmishes inside dungeons (most of which you can avoid anyway) it wouldn't be so bad, but the constantly respawning enemies on the world map are a huge drag.

What's even their purpose? If you want to grind, it's much more effective to go to a dungeon. They're also not tough or interesting to fight, at least not after the first time. Literally their one and only purpose is to annoy you every single time you want to make a trip back to a town or something. It's just a baffling decision that contributes to the game feeling like a slog sometimes.
I know that game always gets a lot of criticism, but I kinda still love it. It was a really nice Fire Emblem experience for me. Very little opportunity for grinding, tolerable story and dialogue, and the artwork -- though the sprites are probably an acquired taste -- I just loved. I just really liked that game. Felt really pure in a lot of ways. And I never had an opportunity to play the original. Plus, damn, it was on my DS -- convenience!

Oh, another person who enjoyed Shadow Dragon. Don't worry brother, there are like, 3 of us!
That said, Echoes is a better remake. I'd love to see a "Mystery of the Emblem - Book 1 and 2" Echoes somewhere down the line after Jugdral and Elibe.
 

Draxal

Member
Really want to get this but I was so burned by fates...anyone here really disliked fates but loves echoes?

Two schools of thought here.

I personally subscribe to the maps and enforced skirmishes starting from chapter three on are so bad, that it ruins to the enjoyment of the game.

There are people who have disliked fates and enjoyed the game just because the story is much stronger.
 

AEREC

Member
Two schools of thought here.

I personally subscribe to the maps and enforced skirmishes starting from chapter three on are so bad, that it ruins to the enjoyment of the game.

There are people who have disliked fates and enjoyed the game just because the story is much stronger.

Story is probably most important for me...fates had some good characters but damn was the story terrible.

I also felt the gameplay was easy if you just turtle which ended up not feeling very strategic. Not sure if echoes is the same way.
 

Thud

Member
The maps and objectives are problematic, but as I've said before, I think the way the game handles skirmishes is worse. If you could just play through the campaign like any other Fire Emblem and had only to worry about a few skirmishes inside dungeons (most of which you can avoid anyway) it wouldn't be so bad, but the constantly respawning enemies on the world map are a huge drag.

What's even their purpose? If you want to grind, it's much more effective to go to a dungeon. They're also not tough or interesting to fight, at least not after the first time. Literally their one and only purpose is to annoy you every single time you want to make a trip back to a town or something. It's just a baffling decision that contributes to the game feeling like a slog sometimes.


Oh, another person who enjoyed Shadow Dragon. Don't worry brother, there are like, 3 of us!
That said, Echoes is a better remake. I'd love to see a "Mystery of the Emblem - Book 1 and 2" Echoes somewhere down the line after Jugdral and Elibe.

The respawn/reinforcement on the map stuff would have been nice if it was at set locations like in Sacred Stones. Still I thought it was cool the first time I traveled with Celica and Alm got attacked by enemies.

Weird part is you can just phase through them. I thought I would be stopped before Desaix' Fortress.

And hey I enjoyed Shadow Dragon to, but it's still a pretty basic bones game with strange mechanics. I also think it doesn't have the charm the first fire emblem has. Sure that game has aged quite a bit, but seeing and hearing it makes me feel nostalgic.
 

vareon

Member
Oh man, Duma Tower. I wanted to play "safe" and go back since I have a few good level ups...but do the floor bosses respawn?
 
I think the floor bosses did re-spawn but if you are worried about fatigue there are fatigue curing pots in the tower (infinite use).

Lol. I think I got done in B8 just when I started thinking of retreating and to upgrade my weapons first.

I don't know if I'll try again as it seems almost impossible without excessive grinding or DLC.
I went down the excessive grinding route using Alm, three clerics and rest dread fighters that had been looped a few times.

For most floors I just ran through them avoiding encounters where I could.

I had to use the turn wheel on B10 and after I think it was B8 the enemies became bullet sponges that would not get ORKOd from brave sword critical hits but the encounters were still very few enemies and had choke points to exploit.

B10 itself was another surprise the game threw at me
I certainly wasn't expecting that BGM to play (hey alchemist I thought it was a divine dragon your creation was based off...though I guess Medues wasn't always an asshole) and the constant reinforcements (even if on a rotation) meant the typical turtling strategy had to be more aggressive to make sure things like bow knights did not become a threat.
. I can see that being absolutely brutal without a grinded team. Oh and you can't retreat either.
 

vareon

Member
Whew, finished. I went the cheap route of Warping and Rescuing Arm to chip the final boss's health while others remained at safe distance.

I don't think I'll touch DLC and Postgame, but I really love it overall. The only thing I don't like is the dungeon exploration which only leads to tedious battles, and the goddamn summons. It has the best story for Fire Emblem on 3DS, too.
 

GeekyDad

Member
I don't think I can finish it. Got Alm to a dead end and was about to have Celica fight
Jedah
, but ugh...it's just a slog of sorts. Aside from the story and dialogue, which are terrible, there's nothing particularly wrong with the game. It's just kinda...meh. Nothing really stands out. It's very ordinary.
 

NeonZ

Member
I enjoyed the game in the beginning, but when the battles become longer and longer later it kind of soured me on it. I still finished it though. It just felt like the slow maps were slow due to relying on similar boring gimmicks, like summoners and low movement terrain, rather than unique features for each one. I didn't like the original Gaiden from the beginning, so I was surprised to enjoy this game quite a bit initially, only to see it all falling apart later.

I also attempted to do sidequests during the playthrough, which resulted in going over and over some boring mindless skirmishes on the map...
 

Hylian7

Member
I picked the back up within the last week or two. I don't know what is considered spoiler and what isn't, so I will mark everything carefully.

I'm almost right at the end of Celica's side of Act 4, I still have Alm's left. I don't know why but I have liked Celica's side more. First of all Celica is a god as far as being a unit goes. She has been able to dominate pretty much anything thrown at her, and could even one shot a certain boss without a crit (
The guy with the Earthquake spell
). I've made most of the other units on her side work well too, even Boey is decent. However I am having trouble leveling up Eat, but fortunately where I am now (
Tower of Duma
) is a good place to do that.

Overall I am enjoying the game. I have stated before this is my favorite art style and presentation in an FE game. I would love to see it throughout the rest of the series. The map design is definitely pretty bad for the most part. The worst offenders are the ones when a huge gap of nothing between you and enemies where you can't see any combat for 2 turns.

Gameplay elements from Celica act 4:
Honestly I actually liked the swamp maps. You had to think carefully about moving units in and out of the swamp,
and had to play around the turns of the Cantors summoning.

However, fuck Dread Fighters. Dodgy pieces of garbage are hard as all hell to actually hit, and magic does so little. It feels like killing them is an act of luck. It gets so frustrating watching miss after miss against them without being able to mitigate it with magic.

Witches I only found mildly irritating, mainly because they are so squishy. I did have a time where one teleported first turn and killed Kamui with a critical, and that was pretty bullshit.

I would love to see some elements from this game (and by extension Gaiden) come back for future FE games. I think a JRPG style FE with dungeons and battles like SoV could be cool, especially with more traditional mechanics like the weapon triangle. The risk/reward of magic is cool, but I am not sure I would want to see that come back.

All in all, I might try Gaiden after I finish SoV. It sounds like SoV is largely an improvement though. I am enjoying this game a lot more than I thought I would though.
 
I think I'm in act 3 or 4. I can command both armies separately and can see castles at the top of each route, I think Jedah is on Celica's side.

Is the game over when I get to those castles or is there more map to be revealed?

The game is starting to drag a bit.
 
I think I'm in act 3 or 4. I can command both armies separately and can see castles at the top of each route, I think Jedah is on Celica's side.

Is the game over when I get to those castles or is there more map to be revealed?

The game is starting to drag a bit.
the game is almost over once you reach there
I would love to see some elements from this game (and by extension Gaiden) come back for future FE games. I think a JRPG style FE with dungeons and battles like SoV could be cool, especially with more traditional mechanics like the weapon triangle. The risk/reward of magic is cool, but I am not sure I would want to see that come back.
Id love to see the overworld and dungeon design of this game come back alongside the improvements in map design and class and skill depths of later games.
 
OK, thank you. Seems I'm close so I'll keep chipping away. Not like I'm hating the game or anything, my interest is just starting to wane a bit.
I played this game much slower than I generally get through fire emblem games. I think it helped as I was enjoying the characters and story and combat, however if I tried to play too much too quickly the pace of the map design would wear thin.
 

BlackJace

Member
Chiming in to agree that Dread Fighters are a bit on the unbalanced side. My Dread Fighter Saber with a Brave Sword was literally untouchable, and Crit hacked all the time.

Enemy D. Fighters were undoubtedly the hardest enemy types
 

Biggad

Neo Member
Is the game noticably shorter than Fates or Awakening?

It'd be great to have something to play for a while but I don't want to spend the entire semester break on it.
 

Erheller

Member
Is the game noticably shorter than Fates or Awakening?

It'd be great to have something to play for a while but I don't want to spend the entire semester break on it.

I'd say Echoes is shorter than Fates, because you can skip Fates' story, but you can't skip Echoes' swamp maps.

I'm only half-kidding

Edit: oh wait I messed up my shitpost, it should read that Fates is shorter than Echoes

More serious answer, though, Echoes is probably a little shorter than Conquest/Birthright
 

NeonZ

Member
Is the game noticably shorter than Fates or Awakening?

It'd be great to have something to play for a while but I don't want to spend the entire semester break on it.

I'd say the main story is about as big as their's, but it's overall shorter than them if you include all their side-content, like paralogues and support building.

Echoes has some sidequests, but they're just "gather items to give to an npc" and a rare "go kill an unique encounter in a dungeon" rather than full maps with story sequences and such. There's one big piece of optional content, but it only becomes available after finishing the game.
 

GeekyDad

Member
Went back to Fates yesterday after not touching it for about a year. Guess I was still kinda burnt out after having played Awakening so many times and going back into my older FE games and replaying those too. But yeah, this is pretty refreshing after Echoes. I may finish Echoes up sometime down the road, but man, it's just so plain Jane compared to Fates. Sure, the story in Fates is at least as bad (I'm sure worse, though I never actually finished it), but everything else about it, including the interface, just feels better. Although...still put off by the weapons not wearing out. That's shit's just weird in FE.
 

Dingens

Member
I think I'm almost at the end of Celicas campaign (about to fight Jeddah) and I can't believe how much more I enjoy this over fates - not just from a story pov. It just seems so much better overall - although arguably some of the maps are worse than the ones in conquest).
The story actually feels like a story this time around. so many more intricacies, and although fairly obvious from the start, at least it's well told with a plethora of likeable characters.
The only thing I don't enjoy are the random fight on the world map, everything else felt like a change of pace the series absolutely needed after fates and awakening.
 

Draxal

Member
Went back to Fates yesterday after not touching it for about a year. Guess I was still kinda burnt out after having played Awakening so many times and going back into my older FE games and replaying those too. But yeah, this is pretty refreshing after Echoes. I may finish Echoes up sometime down the road, but man, it's just so plain Jane compared to Fates. Sure, the story in Fates is at least as bad (I'm sure worse, though I never actually finished it), but everything else about it, including the interface, just feels better. Although...still put off by the weapons not wearing out. That's shit's just weird in FE.

TBH, I'm not a big fan of Echoes at all, but the one thing that I think Echoes has is by far the sharpest UI in the series.

I think I'm almost at the end of Celicas campaign (about to fight Jeddah) and I can't believe how much more I enjoy this over fates - not just from a story pov. It just seems so much better overall - although arguably some of the maps are worse than the ones in conquest).
The story actually feels like a story this time around. so many more intricacies, and although fairly obvious from the start, at least it's well told with a plethora of likeable characters.
The only thing I don't enjoy are the random fight on the world map, everything else felt like a change of pace the series absolutely needed after fates and awakening.

I mean I guess its arguable, but man the maps in Echoes are painfully redundant (Hi Celica ACT 2 of having the same map over and over and over again); or just not fun (desert maps or swamp maps).
 

GeekyDad

Member
I for one am glad that shit's over. You don't need that to make a game hard.

Shame the new Zelda uses that garbage system.

Fair enough. I don't think it's the added difficulty I miss with regards to weapon wear, though. It just adds another element of...well, it's one more thing that requires you to consider your strategy as you play through the game. It's more of a personality trait of the series I appreciate than a consideration of difficulty.
 

Dingens

Member
[...]
I mean I guess its arguable, but man the maps in Echoes are painfully redundant (Hi Celica ACT 2 of having the same map over and over and over again); or just not fun (desert maps or swamp maps).

arguable because the maps in conquest are gimmicky as hell. In Echoes they are pretty much reduced to 3 kinds of environmental effects: damage, slow and protection.
On the other hand... many tend to be same-y, as you said.

Also... god damn Celica, why are you this dense?
 
arguable because the maps in conquest are gimmicky as hell. In Echoes they are pretty much reduced to 3 kinds of environmental effects: damage, slow and protection.
On the other hand... many tend to be same-y, as you said.

Also... god damn Celica, why are you this dense?
If you take Celica's actions at face value shes fine. Its all believable enough with her sense of desperation, however it all falls apart because
of fucking Jedah, who is constantly spouting super evil shit right in front of her without really glossing over any of it. Never once does it sound like he is going to hold up his end of the bargain, and its not like thats the impression the player only would have, every sinister thing he says is right in front of Celica. I just wanted to yell out like Mr Torgue "THIS GUY IS GONNA BETRAY THE FUCK OUT OF YOU"
 

PK Gaming

Member
arguable because the maps in conquest are gimmicky as hell. In Echoes they are pretty much reduced to 3 kinds of environmental effects: damage, slow and protection.
On the other hand... many tend to be same-y, as you said.

Also... god damn Celica, why are you this dense?

You're conflating good design and varied objectives with "gimmicky." Echoes having comparable map design is ludicrous because you're essentially saying Conquest has maps comparable to Gaiden, which is complete nonsense.
 

Erheller

Member
If you take Celica's actions at face value shes fine. Its all believable enough with her sense of desperation, however it all falls apart because
of fucking Jedah, who is constantly spouting super evil shit right in front of her without really glossing over any of it. Never once does it sound like he is going to hold up his end of the bargain, and its not like thats the impression the player only would have, every sinister thing he says is right in front of Celica. I just wanted to yell out like Mr Torgue "THIS GUY IS GONNA BETRAY THE FUCK OUT OF YOU"

It's even more jarring when contrasting Clica to Alm. The latter is basically perfect and never makes any mistakes.
 

PK Gaming

Member
Echoes was literally the worst when it comes to remaking the story.

They carried over every stupid and antiquated plotline, so you have nonsense like
Desaix's double
and every girl having to be rescued because the 90s. They changed Act 5 in its entirety, effectively
taking away Celica's agency and sacrifice (she submits herself to Jedah to save Alm's party from the Dragon Crater, not for some idiotic convoluted sacrifice plot), and I don't even want to touch the
"trust in Falchion"
sequence which just makes me angry.

So you have a story that feels dated and somehow worsens some parts of the original material. Amazing.
 

jay

Member
I am at the last battle and died a few times. Decided I don't actually care at all because I don't want to do any post-game stuff and the plot is garbage so I started a Fire Emblem 3 translation instead. Wow, apparently telling the player how hard each side will hit and the odds of the counter blow landing are FE 5 or 6 innovations. Not sure how to play without that info.
 
Echoes was literally the worst when it comes to remaking the story.

They carried over every stupid and antiquated plotline, so you have nonsense like
Desaix's double
and every girl having to be rescued because the 90s. They changed Act 5 in its entirety, effectively
taking away Celica's agency and sacrifice (she submits herself to Jedah to save Alm's party from the Dragon Crater, not for some idiotic convoluted sacrifice plot), and I don't even want to touch the
"trust in Falchion"
sequence which just makes me angry.

So you have a story that feels dated and somehow worsens some parts of the original material. Amazing.
definitely sounds like they fucked up things...but I actually don't remember the
Desaix's double
thing at all. I remember fighting twice.
 

PK Gaming

Member
definitely sounds like they fucked up things...but I actually don't remember the
Desaix's double
thing at all. I remember fighting twice.

Here

When I heard about the remake, I was 99.99999% sure they'd remove this, but no, it's intact. It speaks of an almost disturbing reverence for the source material.
 
Here

When I heard about the remake, I was 99.99999% sure they'd remove this, but no, it's intact. It speaks of an almost disturbing reverence for the source material.
I appreciate a lot of the effort that went into maintaining so much of the original game. If it wasnt for how much of the late game is changed leaving this wouldnt feel so odd. Now I know why I never saw it though.
 
Here

When I heard about the remake, I was 99.99999% sure they'd remove this, but no, it's intact. It speaks of an almost disturbing reverence for the source material.

You're not even supposed to kill Desaix that early. It's just a nod to the ridiculousness of the source material, it's not supposed to be canon.
 

Draxal

Member
Here

When I heard about the remake, I was 99.99999% sure they'd remove this, but no, it's intact. It speaks of an almost disturbing reverence for the source material.

TBH, the remake had me kinda worried about the switch game in that while I do like Berkut, its more because his VA masks the flaws, otherwise the story additions aren't that great.

Graphics/UI/Music is top notch otoh.
 
Damn this fight against Baba Yaga or whatever her stupid name is. Can't bait out her Death-mages without eventually drawing fire from Medusa. And the map is absurd. I have to go all the way around and to the back to get in?
 

L95

Member
Here

When I heard about the remake, I was 99.99999% sure they'd remove this, but no, it's intact. It speaks of an almost disturbing reverence for the source material.

The remake even has the unused Naga and Serpent name strings from the original game in. (They're still unused in the remake, as far as I can tell)

No signs of FE2's unused Gaia spell though.

I AM super amused they kept the nosferatu glitch with the final boss in. (Or specifically recreated it, would be a better way to word it, I guess)
 
Damn this fight against Baba Yaga or whatever her stupid name is. Can't bait out her Death-mages without eventually drawing fire from Medusa. And the map is absurd. I have to go all the way around and to the back to get in?
You're really boned on that map if you lack some of the following:
-Dread fighters (the take half magic damage skill works on Medusa)
-Hexlock shield (found within the nearby Fear Shrine and also halves magic damage)
-Invoke spell for Silque (more dread fighters...with rather crappy stats)
-Warp+Rescue spells (hit and run tactics at their finest); a combo which requires Faye to be Cleric

The convoluted map design reminds me of the Mila Shrine from chapter 3.
 
You're really boned on that map if you lack some of the following:
-Dread fighters (the take half magic damage skill works on Medusa)
-Hexlock shield (found within the nearby Fear Shrine and also halves magic damage)
-Invoke spell for Silque (more dread fighters...with rather crappy stats)
-Warp+Rescue spells (hit and run tactics at their finest); a combo which requires Faye to be Cleric

The convoluted map design reminds me of the Mila Shrine from chapter 3.

I got two dread fighters, Gray and Tobin, but Faye is a Gold Knight and I didn't do that section of Fear Mountain with the Hexlock Shield yet. And I forgot about Invoke. Thanks for the advice.
 

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
Just checking in to confirm this: Has all the DLC from the season been released, or is there more stuff coming?
 
Just checking in to confirm this: Has all the DLC from the season been released, or is there more stuff coming?

It's all been released.

Technically, they could surprise us with more, but the odds are pretty, pretty slim. The last piece of DLC came out about a month ago and there's not much else to add, although
playable Fernand and Berkut (without hacks)
would be nice.
 

Dingens

Member
You're conflating good design and varied objectives with "gimmicky." Echoes having comparable map design is ludicrous because you're essentially saying Conquest has maps comparable to Gaiden, which is complete nonsense.

I never said it was comparable, so I'm not sure what you're getting at
I said Echoes maps are a step back from the gimmicky design of fates. And when I said gimicky I meant it. Having to deal with shit like poison pots and levers and dragon powers to change maps isn't exactly what I want from a fire emblem game...
I'm not saying I prefer barren simple maps like most of the ones in Echoes over the variety presented in Conquest, but I don't dislike them either. The challenge they present is completely different and satisfying when you finally overcome the realize what the game expects you to do. The challenge doesn't come from destroying pots or hitting levers but from carefully moving your units back and forth so they won't get killed


Now having finished the game (classic - hard), I can say that I honestly liked the game more than I initally expected. In fact, it may even become one of my top 3 fire emblems. There's just something about the game I immensely enjoyed. The story is basically what fates should've been. Playing Echoes feels like playing 3 parts of a trilogy, but unlike fate, every part matters. The characters were surprisingly strong and the story was unexpectedly well told, at least for a fire emblem game (keep in mind I didn't play the english version, so if your experiences differ, it may also be due to the localisation - wouldn't be the first time)

I really liked how distinct the Alm and Celica campaign felt, not just from a story perspective but also gameplay-wise. I guess that's mostly thanks to how the parties are set up with different kinds of units and how the maps have different focal points.

I also didn't expect the dungeons to be this lengthy and fun. Granted the random battles started to get annoying towards the end, but I liked how the dungeon crawling brought some much needed variety to the table and hope future FE games will return to the idea.

If this game is any indication for the quality we can expect from a FE remake, than bring it on I say!
 
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