Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
The horror
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First baby born without a gender in Canada
- Thread starter CoolOff
- Start date
The horror
This is David Reimer, and his penis was burned off in a circumcision accident.
Don't circumcise babies.
And yes, its a beautiful example that shows you don't need to raise a child with an assigned gender in order for them to figure out whether or not they feel comfortable in their body, with their biological sex, and with their gender identity.
David knew he was male innately, just as others with gender dysphoria know who they are despite whatever society tells them to the contrary. The most important thing we can do is help these kids express, understand, and address these feelings without shame or fear, so that we can help them transition into whoever it's right for them to be be.
You can think what you want. I grew up with Arab Muslim parents who raised me to think I was different and better than all the "normal Americans who don't understand" around me, and it fucked me up socially and negatively affected my life until I grew up and started making my own judgments and decisions.
People can do what they want with their bodies and that's nobody's business but their own, but thrusting a child into this is unfair to them. Let them grow up normally and make a decision on their own when they're old enough.
We'll see I guess.
You think this is going to stop societal norms from being forced upon it? lol
The parent would have to be detrimentally hyper controlling in order to "protect" the child from society.
Even if you think what the parents "believe" is whack, how is that not part of the average childhood experience? millions of children are raised by parents with views you don't hold as "normal".
I fucking wish I had a normal childhood. Get outta here with this.
Astral Dog
Member
After the doctor cut his penis, changing sex and getting married his name was David Reimer very tragic case
I mean, I never even saw my own birth certificate until I was in my mid 20s so I doubt this will have much/any effect on the child unless the parent(s) just flash the birth cert. in front of the kid first chance they get.
That said, while kids are probably more open minded than adults, I think inevitably you get to that age where even children start identifying, sex, race, religion, hair color, hobby, whatever, and if/when the question comes up "are you a boy or a girl?" and the kid has no idea how to answer, that could be somewhat traumatic. Or maybe it'll be fine. Not my kid, not my problem.
That said, while kids are probably more open minded than adults, I think inevitably you get to that age where even children start identifying, sex, race, religion, hair color, hobby, whatever, and if/when the question comes up "are you a boy or a girl?" and the kid has no idea how to answer, that could be somewhat traumatic. Or maybe it'll be fine. Not my kid, not my problem.
Audioboxer
Member
While I am someone who thinks it is indeed the best medical practice for a doctor/hospital to diagnose sex at birth (for practical, medical and social reasons), I'm a bit confused at "playing games with their development". If you're talking about the parent(s) then I did say in my first post in the topic it's way too early and unfair to judge the parent(s) of the child on the parenting/upbringing. You have very little evidence to do that. The parent(s) deserve the time to bring up the child before any pitchforks are out, even although I do think this is a case of the parent due to their own life experiences projecting onto the baby considering this went as far as them getting a lawyer involved. The parent does have to remember the baby is not them. This is not them re-doing their life from age "day 1". This is a brand new life born into the world, and while I'm sure the parent(s) want the best education, upbringing and life for the baby, the debates here are heavily around the age at which the baby is being subjected to complex evaluation. There are genuinely founded reasons as to why we diagnose sex at birth, and to stray from that either means one or two things ~ To take the decision away from the fields of medicine/biology/science and say parents should simply decide. Or to try and propose all babies get defined as undetermined. It is of my current opinion we currently handle things as well as we can, although obviously people disagree with that belief and want it done differently.
If you can elaborate more we can discuss further but most of your responses have just been one liners so I'm assuming a bit what you are implying/meaning.
This doesn't mean that "everyone has a biological sex" is outdated. You can argue that the examination should be more throughly if you want
Theonik
Member
Genetic science is a relatively new and rapidly evolving field. Out understanding of gender, the psychosomatic triggers, gender dysphoria and any associated condition is even poorer.
Thrusting an assigned sex onto the child was unfair to me so you'll have to forgive me if I don't see eye-to-eye on this matter.
Albino_Yeti
Member
Dont really agree with the parents, the kid either has a penis or a vagina, but whatever I don't really care.
The lawyer on the other hand lmao. No capital letters in her name? Da fuq
The lawyer on the other hand lmao. No capital letters in her name? Da fuq
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
"Normal childhood" is a fucking meaningless term. There are eccentric parents who raise their kids eccentrically and those kids grow up to be just fine. And there are "normal, average" parents who raise kids who turn out to be total shitheads, or confused and maladjusted in many ways.
After the doctor cut his penis, changing sex and getting married his name was David Reimer very tragic case
This is a fucked up story, damn. That poor child.
Keep Prof. Oak away from this child.
True, sometimes i overestimate how advanced we as a species actually are.
GeordieMark
Member
You say that, but a lot of kids with "quirky" upbringings end up resenting their parents for it. My ex and her siblings know this only too well.
Most people just want a relatively normal existence. These parents are doing this to suit themselves, not the kid.
oh for many it is.
Robot Pants
Member
What I believe is that the parent seems to think the issue of gender identity can be solved by simply allowing the child to self-identify without influence one way or another. Perhaps I'm wrong and instead of withholding information the parent will properly inform the child about gender and sex issues relating to the genitals and their long forming identity.
Again, as a baby the baby won't give a shit one way or another... as they start developing however it will be important for the parent to provide information, rather than the other way around.
I'm happy to be wrong about it.
Wtf..the ID says SEX, not gender. You would think someone this concerned about gender identity would understand this, so they could use it in a debate when someone says "just look at their genitals".
And same to thre govt issuing it, they could easily just say this is based on Sex and not gender.
And same to thre govt issuing it, they could easily just say this is based on Sex and not gender.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
And I know people with "quirky" parents who end up just fine and are grateful that their parents weren't such complete squares about everything. Anecdotes are just that.
[citation needed]
Poor GRIMES
Banned
There are currently procedures that are being done to "correct" the genitalia of intersex people. There was an example in this thread where a baby's penis was botched, and was therefore assigned the sex of female at bitth.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/should-we-fix-intersex-children/373536/
The genitalia exists, but the point is that we have the tendency to assign sex at birth based on genitalia rather than looking at everything that encompasses what "sex"' is in our society.
https://medium.com/@discomfiting/the-social-constructionism-of-biological-sex-307398094541
As an aside, the whole sex vs gender thing is confusing to people in the same way the difference between sexuality and romantic orientation is confusing to them. Because we've erroneously conflated sex and gender, and because we've erroneously conflated sexuality and orientation; people who don't fit into the boxes which typically correlate are left far more confused than they need to be; and as evidenced by this thread. Even if they can figure themselves out in spite of everything, everyone else is still mystified.
We're smarter than we were. We understand that there's a difference between sex and gender, sexuality and romantic orientation, and that none of these concepts is binary. It's not hard to spell out when one isn't fighting with preconceived beliefs.
We're smarter than we were. We understand that there's a difference between sex and gender, sexuality and romantic orientation, and that none of these concepts is binary. It's not hard to spell out when one isn't fighting with preconceived beliefs.
The only way that happens is if other people force that onto the child by being intolerant bigots. It's hardly the parents' fault in that case.
And, indeed, I am having issue with this entire thread going extreme conformist on us. Because it's 100% the responsibility of us "outliers" to conform to human norms to avoid being the subject of reprehensible behavior, is it? Because it's just that bloody completely 100% impossible to rectify the undesirable behaviors of other children, right? Okay.
Exactly. These preconceived beliefs are the real barrier here, something that kids are less susceptible to (but obviously still susceptible to depending on their parenting). How this shakes out really depends heavily on how other kids are raised.
OfficerRaichu15
Member
Alright so forgive my ignorance so gender is the psychological aspect of what a person is and sex is what a person is biologically?
I'm just being practical here, something that the parent should consider as well as the baby develops further.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Uh no. But being raised by parents who don't force societal and gender norms on you is going to have a huge impact on your development as a person.
Nobody is saying they are going to escape societal and gender norms as they grow up.
Being practical and adopting cultural norms is why we have issues such as toxic masculinity and young men pissed off at the world because they were raised with a world view based on their own self worth that no longer fits with economic norms.
FalsettoVibe
Member
If the baby has a penis, it's a male.
A Vagina, it's a female. How hard is that. If the kid chooses to be something else later then whatever.
A Vagina, it's a female. How hard is that. If the kid chooses to be something else later then whatever.
GeordieMark
Member
So what was your comment about then? By your own reasoning it was pointless.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Something like that, yes (possibly an oversimplification, but close enough I'd say).
I'm mocking those who think this child is inherently "doomed" (to what, who the fuck knows apparently) based on their quirky parents because it's completely unsubstantiated and unfounded fears.
That risk is always there, yeah. But thrusting the gender/sex issue onto a kid who's way to young to understand the nuance of the gender and sex spectrum is completely unnecessary. If your boy likes wearing skirts and playing with the girls or something, or even outright says they feel more like a girl, then handle that as it comes and give them the treatment they need to feel more comfortable in their body. There is absolutely no reason to do what these parents are doing and all it does is add risk to the child's development.
This kid is unfortunately not going to have an easy childhood/adolescence.
And many kids have grown up and are growing up in such households right now. My own son has grown up without gender roles being forced on him, that part isn't hard or abnormal.
The hard part is outside influences and media and (eventually) peers and friends.
OfficerRaichu15
Member
Yeah I'm not totally familiar with the issue and argument itself so I just need some clarification.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
"Normal" is not based on the commonality of certain traits appearing. Rather, "normal" is based on what the dominant society deems as such. A majority of the population does not have green eyes. Is this demonized as abnormal? No. A majority of the population is not intersex, however most of the population is confused on what it's even about, even though the likelihood of being intersex is the same as having green eyes. "Normal" is arbirtrary.
Gender-neutral parenting and introducing concepts of gender and sex for a child is not unnecessary. We do not take issue with introducing children basic arithmetic by teaching them how to count. We do not take issue with introducing children basic language by speaking to them. We do not take issue introducing children to a basic set of morals. We do not take issue of introducing children to what is dangerous to them, such as not sticking a fork into the outlet.
We could and should absolutely teach children these concepts early. It doesn't infringe upon their development to be more aware of what everything constitutes. It only furthers their development because they can more easily understand the complexities of issues as they grow older.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
And then you raise it based on it's sex.
That's what the parents are wanting to avoid.
How hard is that.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I am simply opposed to experimenting with your own Personal beliefs on a child.
This is something that should be put off until well into adolescence-early adulthood.
The kid was assigned the female sex only after the botched circumcision and subsequent removal of his male reproductive organs.
And he never felt like a female, instead, he went through absolute hell.
I don't know what you get out of referencing that terrible tragedy, because to me it simply says that a child's sex isn't something that's malleable.
Obviously there's cases of gender dysphoria and it's a serious issue. But that doesn't invalidate the strictly medical classification of sexes by either karyotyping or external genitalia.
I'm all for kids not getting assigned gender roles while growing up. I probably won't enforce any of them on my own children either. But that doesn't suddenly invalidate the sex it was assigned at birth.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Well...yes.
I guess we won't find out how this pans out, so it might be a really positive thing for the child. But this whole things feels like a really excessive example of beme!.jpg
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
I think some of you guys think this is going to happen.
"Mommy am I a boy", or "Dad I feel like a girl" (I'm truncating this)
"No you're not, you have no sex, go back to bed!"
"Mommy am I a boy", or "Dad I feel like a girl" (I'm truncating this)
"No you're not, you have no sex, go back to bed!"
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
But... they are not doing that. They are doing the opposite of what you are worried about. They are, effectively, letting the kid be the gender they'll want to be and are NOT pushing any gender identity on them.
I mean, what exactly are you so afraid of here? What is the difference between:
> "If your boy likes wearing skirts and playing with the girls or something, or even outright says they feel more like a girl, then handle that as it comes"
vs
>"If your (gender-neutral) child likes wearing skirts and playing with the girls or something, or even outright says they feel more like a girl, then handle that as it comes"
I'm failing to see the big worry here.
lol, sounds about right. Whereas it's probably more gonna be: "are you sure? ok, good for you honey!"
Are you aware that transgender people exist, and that their biological sex does not necessarily correlate to their gender? This is the problem. We still use the same words to denote sex and gender, despite the fact that we now know for certain the two are completely different things.
SmackAttack
Member
The parents can know the sex and still raise the kid without basing it on that.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Yea, we have plenty of examples where people are completely fucked up because they have "social norms" forced on them.
Avoiding labeling a person and letting them grow up to be their own self identified person is probably going to be on the whole, far less dangerous than having a father get pissed because his son isn't going to be a mans man.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Great post.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
You asked for an example wherein the sex of the child was misassigned at birth. That sex was misassigned at birth if we go by the notion of genitalia = biological sex of the child.
The child not feeling like a woman is because of something completely different: i.e. their gender identity. Like i said, the genitalia is not a social construct, there is, however, social constructs that surround the "biological sex" argument and how that plays into sex assignment at birth.