• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

First Halo 4 GI information (Spartan OPs, multi, etc) [Update: Campaign/More Details]

But you know one guy on the other team will have that Sniper. You don't know what AA people will pick at spawn. If there was one Jetpack on each side of the map you would know there is going to be one guy with a Jetpack on the other team who will have to pick it up at a certain spot on the map. They have to 'earn' the power weapons and AAs/Equipment/Powerups.

Sniper is a weapon drop weapon from what i understand. And as for loadouts, i really didnt see any problems with it in Reach. People consistently tended to use a variety of stuff when it was available, unless it didnt fit in the gametype, which they then removed. I really dont see the issue.
 
Halo 3, everyone spawns with BR and usually at the same distance from power weapons. Even playing field

Halo Reach, you spawn with DMR and Sprint, Enemy with Shotgun and Armor Lock. Not the same conditions, one of them has the advantage. An advantage he didn't earn.

Cause running for 10 seconds makes you earn the shotgun? What if no one on the other team grabs theirs? The games unbalanced now right? Makes no sense. If people in the team are stupid and dont play as a team, the game is unbalanced by default. Now that's no longer an issue since you pick your weapon at start now and by the way, you can use that sprint now just like everyone else. So you have just has much of a chance to go grab those weapons on the floor as anyone else. Now, it requires you to have a team of individuals instead of identical robots that will just go change their gun within the first 10 seconds of the match anyway, unless its a specific BR match for example. Dont really see any problem. People just like overreacting.
 
Halo 3, everyone spawns with BR and usually at the same distance from power weapons. Even playing field

Halo Reach, you spawn with DMR and Sprint, Enemy with Shotgun and Armor Lock. Not the same conditions, one of them has the advantage. An advantage he didn't earn.

Now everybody has sprint. Choose sprint if you want the power weapons in Reach. There's always a give and take, before or after the countdown. Every choice that you make results in a different list of choices. You go for the rocket launcher in past halos, you can't go for the shotgun. You choose the dmr at the beginning of the match in 4, you can't choose the assault rifle.

You're able to choose to use your primary or your secondary in any halo game at the beginning. Now you're able to choose what your primary/secondary is. Who doesn't want more choice? Saying that it takes less skill to earn your kills now is ridiculous. Now it'll take more because you choose what suits you the best at the very beginning of the match, no excuses. Shooting the guy with what you have at the beginning is what matters now. You want objective gameplay? Play an objective game-type.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
Now everybody has sprint. Choose sprint if you want the power weapons in Reach. There's always a give and take, before or after the countdown. Every choice that you make results in a different list of choices. You go for the rocket launcher in past halos, you can't go for the shotgun. You choose the dmr at the beginning of the match in 4, you can't choose the assault rifle.

You're able to choose to use your primary or your secondary in any halo game at the beginning. Now you're able to choose what your primary/secondary is. Who doesn't want more choice? Saying that it takes less skill to earn your kills now is ridiculous. Now it'll take more because you choose what suits you the best at the very beginning of the match, no excuses.

Halo 1, 2, 3: The match result was only influences by things that happened during the match.

Halo Reach, 4: Match is influenced by things that happen before the match even starts.


That's the problem. What Reach and 4 do with loadouts simply is the opposite of what I like about Halo.
 

Gui_PT

Member
But how can I pick my starting weapons to counter others if I don't know what other people will have?

For once I agree with Over!
 

watership

Member
Exactly...I will never understand the even playing field argument. You still start with the same options. In addition, the (semi) random weapon spawn thing technically makes for a more even playing field, but veterans seem to hate that. Yes, I know the argument: its even at the start...

Ask someone who's just started playing BF3 now, like me, and trying to use planes/helicopters. What an incredible clusterfuck.

edit: Er, actually, is that your point? You prefer experienced players to have more options rather than a level playing field? Lemme know if I am being dumb.
 
Halo 1, 2, 3: The match result was only influences by things that happened during the match.

Halo Reach, 4: Match is influenced by things that happen before the match even starts.


That's the problem. What Reach and 4 do with loadouts simply is the opposite of what I like about Halo.

Skill happens before the map starts too. Now you get to choose what you like based on your experience; based on the way you play best. I didn't much care for the execution of the loadouts in Reach, but I still like the concept of it.

But how can I pick my starting weapons to counter others if I don't know what other people will have?

For once I agree with Over!

You won't know until you go up against them, just like most of the confrontations in previous halo games.
 

Gui_PT

Member
You won't know until you go up against them, just like most of the confrontations in previous halo games.

Naw mang, while playing with people I know, we have good communication so I usually know what's going on.

That'll go away when people have dozens of loadouts to choose from everytime they die. Especially with instant spawning now.
 
Dual Wielding will not be coming back.

I don't get this. Back with Halo 2 especially, Dual Wielding and the strategy of combining the effects of different guns was a key thing that separated it from most other FPS games, especially these days with "realistic shooters".

Hype down.
 
Ask someone who's just started playing BF3 now, like me, and trying to use planes/helicopters. What an incredible clusterfuck.

edit: Er, actually, is that your point? You prefer experienced players to have more options rather than a level playing field? Lemme know if I am being dumb.

Hopefully matchmaking will choose opponents on a similar level. My guess is that you'll unlock the important stuff faster than you would in BF3. No, I'm saying giving someone more options at the beginning of a match doesn't make for a less even playing field. Say I have options a, b and c. And I go up against you who also has options a, b and c. I choose a, and you choose c. I could've chosen c, but I preferred to choose a cause I like that option better. This is, of course, if they do matchmaking correctly.

If someone has option d and I don't, I'm fine with that. I'll just be like, "damn, can't wait till I have that option!" However if they have options d, e and f. I might be like, "thats not fair at all, now is it!?" I'm just saying its possible that it could be done fairly, thats all.
 
Naw mang, while playing with people I know, we have good communication so I usually know what's going on.

That'll go away when people have dozens of loadouts to choose from everytime they die. Especially with instant spawning now.

Maybe they'll limit the number of loadouts more than they did in Reach. I've played a crapload of halo, but I guess I've played with randoms a majority of the time so that is a valid concern...probably more so than any I've heard so far.
 

Gui_PT

Member
I don't get this. Back with Halo 2 especially, Dual Wielding and the strategy of combining the effects of different guns was a key thing that separated it from most other FPS games, especially these days with "realistic shooters".

Hype down.

They mention it in one of their vidocs I believe.

People wouldn't use the many weapons in the sandbox as much and melee encounters didn't happen as often(among other reasons, I'm sure) so they decided to remove DW

Edited for duh english
 

Sean

Banned
I don't get this. Back with Halo 2 especially, Dual Wielding and the strategy of combining the effects of different guns was a key thing that separated it from most other FPS games, especially these days with "realistic shooters".

Hype down.

No melee or grenades while dual wielding, it probably caused confusion to newbies (ie "Do I pick weapons up with X button or Y button?"). And imo, some of the combinations were cheap as hell - overcharged plasma pistol + pistol headshot for example.
 
But how can I pick my starting weapons to counter others if I don't know what other people will have?

For once I agree with Over!

How did you know to pick armor lock before the game started? Did you know people were going to use a ghost? How did you know that they just wouldn't use it and leave it there until the game actually started and you saw no one use the ghosts? Or throw grenades? How do you know they would throw some until in the situation? Some things you don't know until after the game starts, that's how every MP competitive game is. Options are there for people to use and like i said before, if you have an team of idiots, you team is unbalanced by default even if you use the exact same weapons. Now, people can customize their spartan to their play style at the very beginning and give them the chance be at their strongest and best at the very start instead of having the guy who happened to get to the gun before everyone else get an opportunity to get more kills. Everyone has an equal opportunity now from the start and like the other guy said, there are no more excuses.

I think in general, people enjoyed the ability to rape the other team to no end before where as now, that will be more difficult. I don't see this as a bad thing. Skill will still prevail and the people who don't, maybe aren't as skilled as they thought.
 

Gui_PT

Member
How did you know to pick armor lock before the game started? Did you know people were going to use a ghost? How did you know that they just wouldn't use it and leave it there until the game actually started and you saw no one use the ghosts? Or throw grenades? How do you know they would throw some until in the situation? Some things you don't know until after the game starts, that's how every MP competitive game is. Options are there for people to use and like i said before, if you have an team of idiots, you team is unbalanced by default even if you use the exact same weapons. Now, people can customize their spartan to their play style at the very beginning and give them the chance be at their strongest and best at the very start instead of having the guy who happened to get to the gun before everyone else get an opportunity to get more kills. Everyone has an equal opportunity now from the start and like the other guy said, there are no more excuses.

I think in general, people enjoyed the ability to rape the other team to no end before where as now, that will be more difficult. I don't see this as a bad thing. Skill will still prevail and the people who don't, maybe aren't as skilled as they thought.


What I'm saying is, in other Halo games people had to EARN their advantage. They had to work for it. They had to work for sniper or rockets or invis, You always knew the default status for all players in the game, you knew which areas to protect in order to prevent the other team from creating situations where they'd have the advantage.

Now you can just spawn with it, no effort at all. How the hell do you plan your way to counter that?
 
Is this a real argument?

Haha, I don't know. I'm just trying to say that the even playing field argument doesn't make sense to me. Power weapons mean things get uneven and get uneven fast. I see power weapons as a more dignified killstreak...you do something a newb doesn't know to do and consequently multiply your kills for no good reason. It doesn't take actual "gameplay" skill to do it, you just have to get to the weapons first (get 5 kills first in COD), know when and where they spawn, etc.

What I meant by "you start with skill first too" was a crappy way of saying you know how to make things unfair above and beyond normal run, aim and shoot gameplay very quickly.
 
What I'm saying is, in other Halo games people had to EARN their advantage. They had to work for it. They had to work for sniper or rockets or invis, You always knew the default status for all players in the game, you knew which areas to protect in order to prevent the other team from creating situations where they'd have the advantage.

Now you can just spawn with it, no effort at all. How the hell do you plan your way to counter that?

You and both have very different definitions of what "earning" means. Being the first to a gun at the beginning of a match to me isnt earning anything, especially with the fact that people dont spawn at the same location on the map and some people are better positioned for certain guns by default right at the start. Yes, thats incredibly fair.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
Haha, I don't know. I'm just trying to say that the even playing field argument doesn't make sense to me. Power weapons mean things get uneven and get uneven fast. I see power weapons as a more dignified killstreak...you do something a newb doesn't know to do and consequently multiply your kills for no good reason. It doesn't take actual "gameplay" skill to do it, you just have to get to the weapons first (get 5 kills first in COD), know when and where they spawn, etc.

What I meant by "you start with skill first too" was a crappy way of saying you know how to make things unfair above and beyond normal run, aim and shoot gameplay very quickly.
Everybody has an even chance of getting that power weapon and the key to getting it is being more skilled. That's the entire point. The match should be influenced by the players' skill and not by what they decided to spawn with.
 

Gui_PT

Member
You and both have very different definitions of what "earning" means. Being the first to a gun at the beginning of a match to me isnt earning anything, especially with the fact that people dont spawn at the same lication on the map and some people are better positioned for certain guns by default right at the start. Yes, thats incredibly fair.

What about for the rest of the 15 to 20 minute match? Don't you earn map control? Spawn control? Controling those things isn't easy and grants you access to power weapons/equipment. That's how you earn stuff.

Also, with good map design, initial spawns are, for both teams, at the same distance from power weapons. The Pit is a good example.
 
What about for the rest of the 15 to 20 minute match? Don't you earn map control? Spawn control? Controling those things isn't easy and grants you access to power weapons/equipment. That's how you earn stuff.

Also, with good map design, initial spawns are, for both teams, at the same distance from power weapons. The Pit is a good example.

Dont change the argument. Im talking about loadouts and when someone 3 feet in front of me goes for the sniper on herrmorage, i dont stand a chance. Thats not earning, thats luck of the draw. And thats how it works in those Halo games.
 
Every
body has an even chance of getting that power weapon and the key to getting it is being more skilled. That's the entire point. The match should be influenced by the players' skill and not by what they decided to spawn with.

Right, but to use the kill streak example again...that's fair and even too until you get the kill streak. Players abuse the kill streaks like crazy and it often decides the game. Yes it starts out fair, but immediate control of power weapons directly counters that fairness by over rewarding someone ,like a kill streak but definitely not as bad. Starting with your weapon of choice is more balanced in that regard, mixed with more random power weapon spawns.
 

Gui_PT

Member
Sorry I wasn't aware I had changed the subject.

I was talking about how earning stuff in previous Halos was awesome, unlike Halo Reach where all you have to do is press a few buttons to earn your advantage, and I thought I was still talking about that.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
Dont change the argument. Im talking about loadouts and when someone 3 feet in front of me goes for the sniper on herrmorage, i dont stand a chance. Thats not earning, thats luck of the draw. And thats how it works in those Halo games.
It's about team vs team. Not teammate vs teammate. Both teams get a Sniper so it's still balanced out. And later in the game a team could grab the other team's Sniper. I'm not sure if you're getting this. :/

Right, but to use the kill streak example again...that's fair and even too until you get the kill streak. Players abuse the kill streaks like crazy and it often decides the game. Yes it starts out fair, but immediate control of power weapons directly counters that fairness by over rewarding someone ,like a kill streak but definitely not as bad. Starting with your weapon of choice is more balanced in that regard, mixed with more random power weapon spawns.
iG7DeYjaMuZi1.gif
 
Sorry I wasn't aware I had changed the subject.

I was talking about how earning stuff in previous Halos was awesome, unlike Halo Reach where all you have to do is press a few buttons to earn your advantage, and I thought I was still talking about that.

I understand that, but Halo isnt fair at the start If u wanna get into the details. I often spawn on maps like herrmorage for example and ill see people right in front of me right before the game even starts. So this guy will have whatever weapon he wants before me because hes ahead of me. Thats been in every Halo game and its not something i would call earning. He got lucky cause hes ahead of me plain and simple. But it happens all the time and it isnt technically fair. Its fine when that guy is the closer one to the sniper though. Weapon loadouts solve this to a degree. Everyone starts with something they are confortable with and they dont have to go treasure hunting at the start of the match to do so.

As far as map control goes, yes the current system works but its changing. So we'll really need to know more about weapon drops before deciding wether it works or not.
 

kylej

Banned
Haha, I don't know. I'm just trying to say that the even playing field argument doesn't make sense to me. Power weapons mean things get uneven and get uneven fast. I see power weapons as a more dignified killstreak...you do something a newb doesn't know to do and consequently multiply your kills for no good reason. It doesn't take actual "gameplay" skill to do it, you just have to get to the weapons first (get 5 kills first in COD), know when and where they spawn, etc.

What I meant by "you start with skill first too" was a crappy way of saying you know how to make things unfair above and beyond normal run, aim and shoot gameplay very quickly.

Which PSP SOCOM game did you work on?
 
I hate predictability in multiplayer. It's so boring.
I think I know what you mean and I'd agree with you. Halo has always had an element of craziness to it and some of that comes about because of how many options and effects are being thrown into the mix at once.

Every time I see the ultra competitive types lament I also get the sense that what they're angry about might actually make the game more fun and involving for myself.

Or, to put it in friendlier terms I hope Halo 4 extends the concept of the Arena and makes it something the pro types truly want to stick to - that way I know which playlists to avoid.
 
I think I know what you mean and I'd agree with you. Halo has always had an element of craziness to it and some of that comes about because of how many options and effects are being thrown into the mix at once.

Every time I see the ultra competitive types lament I also get the sense that what they're angry about might actually make the game more fun and involving for myself.

Or, to put it in friendlier terms I hope Halo 4 extends the concept of the Arena and makes it something the pro types truly want to stick to - that way I know which playlists to avoid.

I feel the same way.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
meh, I am a fan of chaos and unknown then predictability.

I hate predictability in multiplayer. It's so boring.
I agree. It's the certain random hilarious moments that I have with my friends that is most fun in Halo. It's boring when everything plays out the same. Introduce some chaos, spice it up a little. It's what makes Halo, Halo.
 

Oozer3993

Member
Sorry I wasn't aware I had changed the subject.

I was talking about how earning stuff in previous Halos was awesome, unlike Halo Reach where all you have to do is press a few buttons to earn your advantage, and I thought I was still talking about that.

Assuming your playing a normal mode, and assuming the spawn points of you and your opponent are the same distance from the power weapon, you each have exactly the same odds of getting the power weapon off the initial spawn. You both have your choice of the exact same Loadouts. If, say, Sprint were to decrease the time it would take to get to the power weapon, then, if you want that power weapon, it's in your best interests to choose Sprint. If you don't, but your opponent does and gets the power weapon first, that's not the game's fault. It didn't put you at a disadvantage. You did.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
If weapon spawn are actually random that's gonna pose a lot of issues. I'd imagine the guys who want it so bad will be the first to complain when the enemy randomly gets the rockets the entire game. Power weapon domination in halo was never the issue. Improper placement in maps was. Power weapons should be in map locations that are not immediately beneficial to use them. For instance a rocket launcher should be in an enclosed area and a sniper should be in a location of a map that does not have good lines of sight.

This would put more of an emphasis on teamwork and map control while giving both teams a chance at fighting back for the power weapon while keeping the weapons from being immediately dominant.
 
Exactly...I will never understand the even playing field argument. You still start with the same options. In addition, the (semi) random weapon spawn thing technically makes for a more even playing field, but veterans seem to hate that. Yes, I know the argument: its even at the start...

alright, I'll try to post why I hate it.

The creation of perks, especially passive and non instantly recognizable perks is also the creation of a battlefield where consistent behaviour is diminished, therefore diminishing the skill and increasing the random nature of a game.

In fast paced competitive multiplayer games, seconds and miliseconds are crucial for determining the outcome of a match. The best players are the ones who have the strongest understanding of the fundementals in the game they're playing. They actively calculate the risk and reward of their situations and the ones who do so the best tend to be the most victorious. By creating user unique stats, the foundation, the fundemental elements that make a game what it is, is no longer reliable and it forces players to throw skill to the wayside and instead rely on whatever meta is most popular or overpowered at the time.

imagine the same situation in halo 3 vs halo reach:

two players (you and an enemy) enter opposite sides of a corridor with the same weapons (br/dmr) and grenades(2 frag grenades). Meanwhile another player half way through the battle starts to flank you. In both cases you're winning the firefight between the player infront of you.

this is where things start to get very difficult and where skill starts to shine.

In halo 3, you see that the enemy players sheild goes down and that your next shot will kill the player, regardless of his action, you know you will kill him. You were the better shot in the firefight, by all means you deserve the kill. You can account for any movement to lead your next shot, or use your grenades. At this point you can you start focusing on how to deal with the flanking oppenent, you can check the radar, start thinking about how you want to position your grenade throw or plan your movement. You can do this because you know that the opposing player is the exact same as you, he has the same starting health/shields, he is bound to the same movement pattern etc.

Now in reach the same thing. You see the players shields go down and know that your next headshot or grenades will kill him. However, because the opposing player has any number of skills available to him armorlock, sprint, or jetpack, you can no longer ensure your kill. You now have to acount for 3 times the amount of actions you previously had to deal with, so instead you now have to wait and act appropiately. The consistency that allowed for your skilled actions before are completely negated by the opposing players abilities. The potentional for a doublekill is nearly completely negated because your opposing player was given a free "get out of jail free" card, and even if you get the kill, the precious time spent to ensure you got the kill is no longer being used to deal with the flanking enemy.

The more "options" you throw into a game that are active on one player then another, the less consistent the game becomes and the more indeterminite and more random it becomes. Imagine if one player has more sheilds or hp, or slightly faster run speeds. All of this effects the competitive nature of how the game gets played. It's not about the perk itself, is about how players have to deal with the inconsistent nature of the battlefield.

Most comepitive games come down to two things:

meta
micro

In fps games the meta can be considered things such as map control or strategy, money management in cs, etc. The micro is how a player executes, gets kills etc.

By creating player random weapon spawns, the meta, or stategy of controling the map and weapon spawns is lost, by introducing the abilities and perks, the micro is gone.

Instead it becomes more about getting lucky, or having the most options at your disposal. A player gets a bunch of kills because they just happen to be around when a weapon drop came in instead of planning for it. A player got lucky because they just happened to have the right perk/ability for the time. It's not about who's most skilled, who was the most accurate or had the best strategy.
 

Nutter

Member
I agree. It's the certain random hilarious moments that I have with my friends that is most fun in Halo. It's boring when everything plays out the same. Introduce some chaos, spice it up a little. It's what makes Halo, Halo.

LOL, what is so random about the MLG playlist?
 
I agree. It's the certain random hilarious moments that I have with my friends that is most fun in Halo. It's boring when everything plays out the same. Introduce some chaos, spice it up a little. It's what makes Halo, Halo.

It's funny seeing the MLG guy say that, because that shit is so boring to me.
 
If weapon spawn are actually random that's gonna pose a lot of issues. I'd imagine the guys who want it so bad will be the first to complain when the enemy randomly gets the rockets the entire game. Power weapon domination in halo was never the issue. Improper placement in maps was. Power weapons should be in map locations that are not immediately beneficial to use them. For instance a rocket launcher should be in an enclosed area and a sniper should be in a location of a map that does not have good lines of sight.

This would put more of an emphasis on teamwork and map control while giving both teams a chance at fighting back for the power weapon while keeping the weapons from being immediately dominant.

Thats assuming we know how the drops work, and we dont.
 

Recarpo

Member
I understand that, but Halo isnt fair at the start If u wanna get into the details. I often spawn on maps like herrmorage for example and ill see people right in front of me right before the game even starts. So this guy will have whatever weapon he wants before me because hes ahead of me. Thats been in every Halo game and its not something i would call earning. He got lucky cause hes ahead of me plain and simple. But it happens all the time and it isnt technically fair. Its fine when that guy is the closer one to the sniper though. Weapon loadouts solve this to a degree. Everyone starts with something they are confortable with and they dont have to go treasure hunting at the start of the match to do so.

I don't think he's talking about individual members of the same team, he's talking about opposite teams. Each team has a fair shot at the power weapons like his example of the pit, each team has a fair shot at the rockets and each side has a sniper for themselves.
 

zlatko

Banned
Thats assuming we know how the drops work, and we dont.

Yeah if I had to guess how it works, it'll be like this:

3 power weapons on a map (just for this example)
R.Launcherx1
Sniperx1
Shottyx2

Shotty has 4 fixed spots on map it can spawn.
Sniper has 3 fixed spots.
R Launcher has 3 fixed spots.

So when they say random, you can't sit at just one spot the whole game, because it could show up at one of the other spots. So you need to move around if you want to control that weapon.
 
Halo 1, 2, 3: The match result was only influences by things that happened during the match.

Halo Reach, 4: Match is influenced by things that happen before the match even starts.


That's the problem. What Reach and 4 do with loadouts simply is the opposite of what I like about Halo.

Yeah. Anyway, to the best of my recollection, perks in CoD don't dramatically change the way the core game is played. AAs in Reach are anything but subtle.
 
Top Bottom