-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Krappadizzle
Member
I'd say on average over the last year I've really increased my activity but I never put much credence behind walking/cardio other than a 5 minute warm-up before my workouts.
If I spend 10 minutes walking before I work out, which by the way, at 4mph and a 7% inclince makes me feel like a goddamn wrestler walking around a pool as fast as possible but not too fast that the lifeguard blows the whistle.
But if I spend 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after my lifts, I'll hit my 10000 steps naturally kinda walking around doing normal shit around the house by 1pm or so. That small addition has really accelerated the weight loss slump I was in. I could no longer feasibly lower my calorie intake anymore and that adjustment has let me eat more and still lose weight while feeling better.
I will say though, since really committing to fasting, it's been difficult to eat more than 2000 calories before I sleep, but if I don't get enough to eat, I get HORRIBLE sleep which really affects my lifts. It's been a very interesting adventure seeing how my body and mind have responded, both positively and negatively this last year. I've not felt this focused and motivated for a long time and being able to keep this motivation over the last year hasn't been nearly the struggle I thought it'd be once I made some choices with more commitment to them.
I DRASTICALLY reduced my drinking and drinking habit. I'd easily drink a bottle of vodka every weekend for a couple years, never during the week, but on the weekend, classic binge drinking and eating. But cutting my drinking habits down to just for occasions(birthdays/rare evening out with buddies) has made some very significant improvements to just about everything. I think me cutting out my drinking while also getting a job as a bartender really helped me see what my drinking was doing to me. It's been eye-opening serving the patrons at my bar and watching their lives over the last 10 mos. or so.
I'm really growing interested in hypertrophy training and really wanting to dial in on my diet and routines. I've more or less been doing a push/pull/legs routine for the better part of the last 10 mos. or so and I've found it to be pretty great, but my gains slowed down significantly as I leaned out, which I understand is to be expected, I'm just now trying to find what the balance I need that lets me put on muscle as best as possible. I weighed in at 194 today which puts me at about 105lbs lost so far. I've been pushing my goalpost back for a while now, it was under 220, then under 200 and now I'm shooting for 185. I'm unsure as to where is a good stopping point on weight loss proper and really focusing on putting muscle on should be? I don't look super lean by any stretch, but my wife thinks I'm at a good point to start going the other way. I dunno, I don't quite feel that way, but I do think she brings up some valid concerns that my diet probably isn't the best as it's mostly just straight chicken/turkey and spinach/broccoli with a multivitamin every day.
I recently had a physical a few weeks back, and more or less all my vitals improved drastically other than my liver apparently being very active I guess, which the doctor wants me to get ultrasounded. Which I still don't really understand as I figured my HUGE reduction in drinking would more or less normalize a lot of homeostasis in my body. Not really too concerned, but it's something to be mindful of I guess.
I'm def. finding myself becoming food apprehensive and developing a bit of dysmorphia if I had to guess, but I address it as I can.
Any of you doing hypertrophy training in particular? Thoughts' on it? What are your workouts like if so?
If I spend 10 minutes walking before I work out, which by the way, at 4mph and a 7% inclince makes me feel like a goddamn wrestler walking around a pool as fast as possible but not too fast that the lifeguard blows the whistle.
But if I spend 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after my lifts, I'll hit my 10000 steps naturally kinda walking around doing normal shit around the house by 1pm or so. That small addition has really accelerated the weight loss slump I was in. I could no longer feasibly lower my calorie intake anymore and that adjustment has let me eat more and still lose weight while feeling better.
I will say though, since really committing to fasting, it's been difficult to eat more than 2000 calories before I sleep, but if I don't get enough to eat, I get HORRIBLE sleep which really affects my lifts. It's been a very interesting adventure seeing how my body and mind have responded, both positively and negatively this last year. I've not felt this focused and motivated for a long time and being able to keep this motivation over the last year hasn't been nearly the struggle I thought it'd be once I made some choices with more commitment to them.
I DRASTICALLY reduced my drinking and drinking habit. I'd easily drink a bottle of vodka every weekend for a couple years, never during the week, but on the weekend, classic binge drinking and eating. But cutting my drinking habits down to just for occasions(birthdays/rare evening out with buddies) has made some very significant improvements to just about everything. I think me cutting out my drinking while also getting a job as a bartender really helped me see what my drinking was doing to me. It's been eye-opening serving the patrons at my bar and watching their lives over the last 10 mos. or so.
I'm really growing interested in hypertrophy training and really wanting to dial in on my diet and routines. I've more or less been doing a push/pull/legs routine for the better part of the last 10 mos. or so and I've found it to be pretty great, but my gains slowed down significantly as I leaned out, which I understand is to be expected, I'm just now trying to find what the balance I need that lets me put on muscle as best as possible. I weighed in at 194 today which puts me at about 105lbs lost so far. I've been pushing my goalpost back for a while now, it was under 220, then under 200 and now I'm shooting for 185. I'm unsure as to where is a good stopping point on weight loss proper and really focusing on putting muscle on should be? I don't look super lean by any stretch, but my wife thinks I'm at a good point to start going the other way. I dunno, I don't quite feel that way, but I do think she brings up some valid concerns that my diet probably isn't the best as it's mostly just straight chicken/turkey and spinach/broccoli with a multivitamin every day.
I recently had a physical a few weeks back, and more or less all my vitals improved drastically other than my liver apparently being very active I guess, which the doctor wants me to get ultrasounded. Which I still don't really understand as I figured my HUGE reduction in drinking would more or less normalize a lot of homeostasis in my body. Not really too concerned, but it's something to be mindful of I guess.
I'm def. finding myself becoming food apprehensive and developing a bit of dysmorphia if I had to guess, but I address it as I can.
Any of you doing hypertrophy training in particular? Thoughts' on it? What are your workouts like if so?
Last edited:
DavidGzz
Gold Member
It's the only way to be. I do full body workouts. I really concentrate on the muscle burn, stretch, and lifting intensity over how much weight I am lifting. I love it and am close to my best overall shape at age 42.
Krappadizzle
Member
Now when you are doing it, do you push your first set to failure? Every set to failure? Just the last set? I've been pretty much doing last set to failure and it's working pretty well for me, but I'm unsure if there's a better way. And I'll say, at 37, I'm easily in the best shape I've ever been in. Even better than when I was at my leanest right after Boot Camp. It's crazy that I waited this long to focus on this as it's all been pretty rewarding.
Last edited:
DavidGzz
Gold Member
Besides a warmup set I always go to failure and on top of that I do another set or two after resting 10-20 seconds between each one. I'll repeat that 2-4 times per muscle.
Raven117
Member
First off, damn man, congratulations on cleaning up your life. Flat out bad ass. The limiting the drinking, the work you are putting in on the fitness front...just outstanding work and you should be very proud of yourself.I'd say on average over the last year I've really increased my activity but I never put much credence behind walking/cardio other than a 5 minute warm-up before my workouts.
If I spend 10 minutes walking before I work out, which by the way, at 4mph and a 7% inclince makes me feel like a goddamn wrestler walking around a pool as fast as possible but not too fast that the lifeguard blows the whistle.
But if I spend 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after my lifts, I'll hit my 10000 steps naturally kinda walking around doing normal shit around the house by 1pm or so. That small addition has really accelerated the weight loss slump I was in. I could no long feasibly lower my calorie intake anymore and that adjustment has let me eat more and still lose weight while feeling better.
I will say though, since really committing to fasting, it's been difficult to eat more than 2000 calories before I sleep, but if I don't get enough to eat, I get HORRIBLE sleep which really affects my lifts. It's been a very interesting adventure seeing how my body and mind have responded, both positively and negatively this last year. I've not felt this focused and motivated for a long time and being able to keep this motivation over the last year hasn't been nearly the struggle I thought it'd be once I made some choices with more commitment to them.
I DRASTICALLY reduced my drinking and drinking habit. I'd easily drink a bottle of vodka every weekend for a couple years, never during the week, but on the weekend, classic binge drinking and eating. But cutting my drinking habits down to just for occasions(birthdays/rare evening out with buddies) has made some very significant improvements to just about everything. I think me cutting out my drinking while also getting a job as a bartender really helped me see what my drinking was doing to me. It's been eye-opening serving the patrons at my bar and watching their lives over the last 10 mos. or so.
I'm really growing interested in hypertrophy training and really wanting to dial in on my diet and routines. I've more or less been doing a push/pull/legs routine for the better part of the last 10 mos. or so and I've found it to be pretty great, but my gains slowed down significantly as I leaned out, which I understand is to be expected, I'm just now trying to find what the balance I need that lets me put on muscle as best as possible. I weighed in at 194 today which puts me at about 105lbs lost so far. I've been pushing my goal post back for a while now, it was under 220, then under 200 and now I'm shooting for 185. I'm unsure as to where is a good stopping point on weight loss proper and really focusing on putting muscle on should be? I don't look super lean by any stretch, but my wife thinks I'm at a good point to start going the other way. I dunno, I don't quite feel that way, but I do think she brings up some valid concerns that my diet probably isn't the best as it's mostly just straight chicken/turkey and spinach/broccoli with a multivitamin every day.
I recently had a physical a few weeks back, and more or less all my vitals improved drastically other than my liver apparently being very active I guess, which the doctor wants me to get ultrasounded. Which I still don't really understand as I figured my HUGE reduction in drinking would more or less normalize a lot of homeostasis in my body. Not really too concerned, but it's something to be mindful of I guess.
I'm def. finding myself becoming food apprehensive and developing a bit of dysmorphia if I had to guess, but I address it as I can.
Any of you doing hypertrophy training in particular? Thoughts' on it? What are your workouts like if so?
I haven't seen a pic of you, but Im willing to be its time to go the other way. I sort of did the same thing as you. I was about 220 lbs (skinny fat...im real tall)...and I cut down over two years to 164.8. I became food apprehensive (somewhat) and had a bit of dysmorphia...Moreover...because of how I cut...I slowed my metabolism way...way down. Basically, it came to the point where I couldn't burn off any more fat without basically starving (I was starving) because I just didn't have the muscle mass for those pounds to come off.
So, I decided to go the other way. Since November, I have gained 40 lbs. Yup, some of this is fat. It was VERY Hard for me to get over this...but I realized that because it was so hard is why I had to do it...I was developing some issues with food. Im doing better now, but it took months. Now, I kind of get a kick out of seeing the scale go up. I know I have the discipline to cut it off. So that number on the scale means I'm just getting stronger.
Since then I've focused on straight up strength training. Squats, Deadlift, Bench Press, Overhead Press, Pull Ups.... gaining about 1 lb of body weight a week. All my lifts are going up. I now have a booty, my shoulders and chest are coming along nicely... I don't have the abs like I did with my shirt off anymore (still not bad though), but damn do I look better with a shirt on and not looking like I'm a cancer patient.
My suggestion to you is perhaps focus on strength and body weight for awhile. Get strong. One, its healthy...and Two, when you do decide its time to focus on pure hypertrophy (you will get big on heavy compound lifts doing like 3x5/3x6), you will be able to move alot more weight and get bigger quicker. Grayskull, LP, Starting Strength...something like that.
Last edited:
Aces High
Gold Member
It is recommended that you get really lean before building muscle. This is especially true for people who have a history of being overweight or obese. We're talking ~12% body fat lean.
The reasons are physiological and psychological.
The physiological reasons are insulin resistances. Insulin resistances define whether your body will send nutrients to muscle cells or fat cells first and foremost. You can think of it like a scale within your body. Left side of the scale is muscle tissue and right side is fat tissue. If you add insulin resistance to the muscle side, fat tissue goes up (let's assume the scale going up means it's getting more). If you add insulin resistance to the fat side, muscle tissue is going up.
By reducing body fat, you change these insulin resistance in favor of muscle cells. The fitter you are, the fitter you will become. Becoming overweight or obese changes these insulin resistances in favor of fat cells. The fatter you are, the fatter you will become. Doing hypertrophy training with too much body fat is like fighting against windmills: it won't work.
Lifting weight and having a diet rich in Omega 3 fats will have a positive impact on insulin resistances. Being a lazy fuck and eating foods that are rich in saturated fatty acids (pizza, cheeseburger, french fries) will have a negative impact. Don't fall for the 'If it fits your macros' (IIFYM) bullshit. The foods you eat will define your body composition as well as your physical and cognitive performance.
Aces High
Gold Member
In order to get lean, you have to stop fasting. Intermittent fasting creates the illusion of fat loss by promoting your body to release water from cells. At the end of your fasting period, you look and feel slim even though you didn't lose a single gramm of fat tissue.
Intermittent fasting is an ineffective way to lose body fat. It promotes binge eating and makes your performance and ability to rest highly dependent on your eating times: fasting period = high performance, eating period = resting time. These downsides are unnecessary because at the end of the day, all you really want is a caloric deficit.
Bodybuilders, fitness models and actors all use the same method to get lean. It's the healthiest form of dieting and will yield the best results.
All you need is a caloric deficit, healthy fats, slow carbs, lean protein, and vegetables evenly distributed over the entire day.
You eat vegetables with every meal, except pre, intra and post workout. Vegetables are the best source of fiber. Fiber slows down the time at which carbs are broken down into glycogen. If this happens too fast, your body will release insulin. Once insulin is released, it will store fatty acids and surplus glycogen in your fat cells. What's even worse: your body can't burn fat tissue as long as insulin is released even if you're in a caloric deficit.
Glycogen is fuel for your body. You want to make sure that you always have enough of it stored in your muscles. If these stores are full, any surplus glycogen in your blood (= blood sugar) will trigger an insulin release. Intermittent fasting will cause an insulin release everytime you eat simply because you have to eat a lot of carbs at once. A better way is to split your caloric intake into 5 smaller meals. This way, you can get your carbs in smaller amountsand reduce the chance of insulin being released. Even better: you adjust your carb intake to your activity level. On training days, you eat more carbs and less fats. On rest days, you eat less carbs and more fats.
Just like carbs get broken down into glycogen, protein gets broken down into amino acids (AAs) within your body. And much like with glycogen, your body keeps the AA concentration within your blood in check. If there are a lot of AAs in your blood, your body will release glucagon. Glucagon is an insulin antagonist and will reduce the potency of insulin effects. Eat 45g lean protein (not powder) with every meal and you're good.
k1m1d4n
Member
This is a very detailed explanation and somewhat different from most that can be found online.
Where did you learn this from?
( I am not doubting the richness of it, I am definitely interested in learning more)
Aces High
Gold Member
There are two types of sets: warm-up sets and worker sets. Worker sets are those sets that you take to maximum failure. Stay away from "reps in reserve" and other concepts. Always give 100% on your worker sets. This is important.
Now to the sets. Let's say you can do the exercise with 100 kg and 10 reps. You would start with multiple warm-up sets. For example:
50 kg x8 reps
short rest
65 kg x3 reps
short rest
80 kg x 2 reps
short rest
90kg x1 reps
rest
After that quick warm-up phase, you'll do your worker sets. The number of worker sets depends on the style of training you do. A very popular approach are two worker sets with different rep ranges. For example:
110 kg x 6-9 reps
rest
80 kg x 10-15 reps
For isolation work on smaller muscles, you can do way less warm-up sets. It is also recommended to increase the rep range for these exercises. Let's assume you can do the exercise with 10 kg and 10 reps. Worker set example:
8 kg x 10-15 reps
rest
6 kg x 15-25 reps
Hypertrophy training is not about moving as much weight as possible from point A to point B. It is about contracting your target muscle in the most effective way possible. Think of the weight as a tool to achieve this perfect contraction. It is imperative to keep perfect form throughout every single rep on both your warm-up and worker sets. If you don't keep perfect form, you wasted a rep and added fatigue to your central nervous system without getting the benefit of muscle growth. Leave your ego at the gym door. If the guy next to you does chest press with 80 kg and you can only do it clean with 50 kg, don't make the mistake to add more weight for sake of looking strong. Hypertrophy training is not about getting strong. If you want to get strong, hypertrophy training is not for you.
The mechanism when you body gets bigger muscles is called muscle protein synthesis (MPS). What many people don't know is that there are two types of MPS: myofibrillar MPS (good) and sarcoplasmic MPS (not benefitial for beginners). The latter is what people often refer to as "pump". With sarcoplasmic MPS, your muscle gets bigger because it sucks in water, blood and nutrients like a sponge. Looks great on Instagram, but here's the downside: once you stop training for a week or two, your muscle will shrink to its real size. That's when bodybuilders would say "you look flat".
Myofibrillar MPS is what you need to achieve. This type of MPS adds real muscle tissue. Your body creates more flesh. With myofibrillar MPS you can stop training for several month and you will not look like you've never been to the gym. Competitive bodybuilders will use both types for their advantage. But everyone else should focus on myofibrillar MPS.
You achieve myofibrillar MPS through perfect form. During the concentric movement (e.g. lifting the dumbell up during a curl), you don't want to "explode" the weight because this will only lead to less workload after the initial movement since your arm is not fast enough to keep up with the speed of the weight. What you do instead is a constant acceleration of the weight. Think of it like a starting train. At the peak of the concentric movement, squeeze you target muscle. Get the best contraction possible for about a second. Then, and this is key for myofibrillar MPS, lower the weight slowly and steadily and create as much workload on your muscle as possible. Lower the weight only so much that you not lose this workload. At the bottom of the eccentric movement, keep the weight steady for a second and then start the train again without any momentum whatsoever.
People who never did real hypertrophy training are usually shocked about two things when they try this out: 1. how little weight they can move with perfect form and 2. how quickly their muscles grow this way.
Since your worker sets go to maximum muscle failure, it is recommended to stay away from bench presses, squats and deadlifts. If you train at home you obviously have to do them. If you love these types of movements, fine, do them. But for everyone else: You will make better progress with good machines and cables.
It's not even 100% correctly explained. For example the stuff with the glycogen stores and the insulin. Of course, insulin will release only if glycogen concentration in your blood reaches a certain threshold and not just because your glycogen stores are full. I wanted to change it, but somehow the edit button was gone. I'm not a native speak, so please pardon me if some things are not worded perfectly.
To answer your question: Stop listening to athletes and listen to coaches instead. Jordan Peters, Chris Aceto, Dr. Scott Stevenson, Dante Trudel, and so on. These guys have the knowledge everyone seeks.
Krappadizzle
Member
That is some great information! I really haven't been vigilant about warm-up sets and I probably should. I'm gonna give your suggestions a try, I've noticed that my weight lift totals have more or less stagnated a bit, but I've seen what looks like pretty effective muscle growth. I've also been doing my best to focus on my form and deep stretch and contraction of the muscles.
I do bench press, but I don't squat or dead-lift, I'll just lift as heavy as I can on the leg-presses and calf-raises. But I'll also do incline dumbbell bench and really do the full stretch of the exercise, which really works you harder than people probably realized if they don't cheat the exercises.
I've noticed that I used to be able to kinda cheat my way into about 3 or 4 poor form pull-ups, but after watching this lady at my gym do full, all the way lowered, scapular pull-ups, I've switched to that style, which is much harder to do, but I noticed my strength and form improve so much after a few months.
Last edited:
Aces High
Gold Member
It's completely normal that your lifts stagnate during a fat-loss diet. Just keep reducing your bodyfat and use the time to learn proper form for each exercise. This will put you in a perfect position to grow muscle once you switch to a caloric surplus.
Always keep in mind that strength is based on biomechanics. How strong you are in an exercise is defined by things like bone length, joint thickness, muscle length, and so on. There's a huge amount of people who can't do pull-ups or chin-ups on reps, simply because their biomechanics requires them to activate insane amounts of torque to lift their bodyweight up.
Don't waste your time on exercises that you suck at. No exercise is mandatory. Every exercise has multiple alternatives that can be much more effective for your individual biomechanics.
Training your latissimus is incredibly hard. It requires lots of experience. Most people never hit their lats even if their using lat pulldown machines. If you don't point your elbows forward at all times during the movement, you will not hit your lat but your teres major and your biceps instead. Doing pull-ups instead of a lat pulldown machine will make things much harder for you than necessary.
Don't stick to a single exercises forever. Always keep rotating them if possible.
Always keep in mind that strength is based on biomechanics. How strong you are in an exercise is defined by things like bone length, joint thickness, muscle length, and so on. There's a huge amount of people who can't do pull-ups or chin-ups on reps, simply because their biomechanics requires them to activate insane amounts of torque to lift their bodyweight up.
Don't waste your time on exercises that you suck at. No exercise is mandatory. Every exercise has multiple alternatives that can be much more effective for your individual biomechanics.
Training your latissimus is incredibly hard. It requires lots of experience. Most people never hit their lats even if their using lat pulldown machines. If you don't point your elbows forward at all times during the movement, you will not hit your lat but your teres major and your biceps instead. Doing pull-ups instead of a lat pulldown machine will make things much harder for you than necessary.
Don't stick to a single exercises forever. Always keep rotating them if possible.
Raven117
Member
Amen.
Aces High has some great advice here, but IMO is a bit too advanced.
I agree that a cut first is the right way to go (unless you really are just skinny fat). Its psychological...You want to look like you are doing something. You have already cut. I don't know your BF% is (and neither do you unless you got tested), but if you are already slimmed down (which you said you have), you probably are ready to try bulking.
You can go the high rep route like Aces suggested. It can burn calories (if that is still the direction you want to go), keep some of the muscles from not deteriorating. You will move some weight. May even get some growth (you wont get much if you are running a deficit).
But, i think you should consider going effing heavy on the big compound lifts. My advice to you Krap is that you probably want to get strong. Run your novice linear progression...eat over maintenance...nail your technique for Squats, Deadlift, Bench, Press, Rows.. This will last for about 6-9 months. Then, cut off the weight and go on with cutting back on the big lifts (say squat from 3x a week to 1-2...and then mix in your high volume work like sets 8-10) You will not look AS good at first. But EVERYTHING becomes easier if you are stronger in the fitness world. Including pure hypertrophy. You will be strong and jacked.
I had it put it to me like this once. You have to pray to the iron gods of Valhalla before you pray to the gods of Olympus.
But...check this video out
Last edited:
Aces High
Gold Member
I'm really not happy with your answer, Raven. Getting strong first with barbell movements is an outdated bro science concept. Barbell movements are by far the worst exercises for muscle growth for the majority of people.
Go to any gym in the world and you'll see guys that look like a T-Rex (skinny arms, big legs and ass) do barbell compound movements with low rep ranges while the guys with big muscles use machines and do isolation exercises with high rep ranges. Ronnie Coleman once said that there's no muscle growth below 8 reps.
If you want to get strong, do powerlifting. If you want to have big muscles, do hypertrophy training. If you try to do both at the same time, you will achieve neither unless you have unicorn genetics like Arnold or Ronnie.
You'll eventually get strong with hypertrophy training, too. But it's only a byproduct of progressive overload and not a primary training goal. You will not achieve your maximum genetically possible strength with hypertrophy training.
I can't watch your video right now, but I know this guy's channel and he usually talks first class bullshit. Or at least that's what he did some years ago. Don't know about the quality of his content today. I will check it out later.
My recommendation for everyone who is interested in growing muscles is to watch the following video. Listen very closely to what Jordan says. There's only a handful of people on this planet who have this much knowledge on the topic.
Go to any gym in the world and you'll see guys that look like a T-Rex (skinny arms, big legs and ass) do barbell compound movements with low rep ranges while the guys with big muscles use machines and do isolation exercises with high rep ranges. Ronnie Coleman once said that there's no muscle growth below 8 reps.
If you want to get strong, do powerlifting. If you want to have big muscles, do hypertrophy training. If you try to do both at the same time, you will achieve neither unless you have unicorn genetics like Arnold or Ronnie.
You'll eventually get strong with hypertrophy training, too. But it's only a byproduct of progressive overload and not a primary training goal. You will not achieve your maximum genetically possible strength with hypertrophy training.
I can't watch your video right now, but I know this guy's channel and he usually talks first class bullshit. Or at least that's what he did some years ago. Don't know about the quality of his content today. I will check it out later.
My recommendation for everyone who is interested in growing muscles is to watch the following video. Listen very closely to what Jordan says. There's only a handful of people on this planet who have this much knowledge on the topic.
Raven117
Member
In my experience, I've found that there is not a once size fits all for anyone. I did all that hypertrophy training for years. Had some success, but it was grindingly slow and I still wasn't moving alot of weight. I switched over to more straight up barbell training and the gains both size and strength were significant. I'm just suggesting that Krap really look at what he wants and how to get there. (Also, this is specific to me. I was 6'5", 164 pounds after an embarrassingly long cut to "get abs." I was primed for a straight up old school bulk lifting heavy. Everyone's circumstances are different.
It may be bro but it absolutely worked for me. But, I was also prepared to get a bit fluffy for awhile...but I was also prepared to switch over once I had a achieved a base level of strength. Im the biggest and strongest I've ever been and still haven't gained back the fat that I had when I started all this.
There is alot of bs out there about what to do in the gym. And to your point, there are really two paths to go...strength vs. hypertrophy (we know that is not completely true, but one emphasizes over another). For someone that is moderately untrained (like Krap), I think it makes sense from a health perspective and work capacity perspective to get stronger first. I'm not talking t-rex type powerlifters that grind for a year to add 10lbs to their deadlift. I'm talking 6-9 months dedicated strength. You will be a little fluffy at the end of it, but then when you switch over to "pure hypertrophy" you are going to be in a much better position to realize gains more quickly.
Do check it out. He was a powerlifter but now recognizes the benefit of bodybuilding and some higher rep ranges. I posted it as a counter point to what I was saying.
To me the "perfect" program is going to be a mix of the compound lifts for low reps high weight, with some isolation work mixed in at the end, but after you have already learned to move some weight around.
Last edited:
K2D
Banned
Thinking of going on a calorie deficit diet as of today. Been on my mind for a good while. Give me your worst!
Currently weighing ~115 kg (250 lbs), looking at a goal of losing ~20 kg (45lbs). Have set period time frame of 2-3 months depending on how it goes come October.
Not planning on counting caleries, at least for the first weeks, but rather going for an approximation. I'm looking at plans containing 800 calories per day ( I'm 180cm (5'11"?), bmi of ~36)
A big part of the dieting will mean sticking to one serving, drinking more water (or green tea), removing snacks and sweets from my day. Maybe chew on some vegetables or nori paper (lol).
Currently suffering from runners knee(?) and impinchment/rotary cuff injury, so I don't know how dieting will affect the healing process yet.
Currently weighing ~115 kg (250 lbs), looking at a goal of losing ~20 kg (45lbs). Have set period time frame of 2-3 months depending on how it goes come October.
Not planning on counting caleries, at least for the first weeks, but rather going for an approximation. I'm looking at plans containing 800 calories per day ( I'm 180cm (5'11"?), bmi of ~36)
A big part of the dieting will mean sticking to one serving, drinking more water (or green tea), removing snacks and sweets from my day. Maybe chew on some vegetables or nori paper (lol).
Currently suffering from runners knee(?) and impinchment/rotary cuff injury, so I don't know how dieting will affect the healing process yet.
Raven117
Member
Thats pretty agressive, but you have the weight to lose it seems. But I agree, cut out the easy stuff first and see what happens.Thinking of going on a calorie deficit diet as of today. Been on my mind for a good while. Give me your worst!
Currently weighing ~115 kg (250 lbs), looking at a goal of losing ~20 kg (45lbs). Have set period time frame of 2-3 months depending on how it goes come October.
Not planning on counting caleries, at least for the first weeks, but rather going for an approximation. I'm looking at plans containing 800 calories per day ( I'm 180cm (5'11"?), bmi of ~36)
A big part of the dieting will mean sticking to one serving, drinking more water (or green tea), removing snacks and sweets from my day. Maybe chew on some vegetables or nori paper (lol).
Currently suffering from runners knee(?) and impinchment/rotary cuff injury, so I don't know how dieting will affect the healing process yet.
Don't forget to incorporate some resistance training...try and keep as much muscle as possible.
Aces High
Gold Member
Yet you recommend a training philosophy that limits people to a fixed rep range and a small set of old school exercises.
The idea to train with different rep ranges isn't new. It's the training principle of Dr. Fred Hatfield aka "Dr. Squat". Hatfield was a sports scientist and powerlifting champion. He also set a squat world record in 1987. Hatfield discovered that different rep ranges have different effects on the body.
A rep range of 1-5 enhances intramuscular coordination. Your central nervous system (CNS) will become better at activating muscle fibres. It learns to activate more fibres at once and it will activate them quicker.
This is key knowledge. It is important to understand that you can get stronger without building muscle. Your muscles might happen to get bigger through training with 1-5 reps, but this is only a byproduct of your training.
Vice versa, your strength will increase through training in higher rep ranges. But then again, this is only a byproduct of your muscles growing.
For a powerlifter, strength is the goal and muscle is just one of many tools. For the bodybuilder, muscle is the goal and strength is just one of many tools.
*insert Arnie voice* You have to have a clear goal in mind in order to reach it. You have to visualize it. Focus on it with all your power. And so on...
Doing barbell compound movements with low rep ranges before doing real hypertrophy work is an outdated approach. We know this for decades. If you want big muscles, get those fucking big muscles with real bodybuilding training and don't waste your time with things that decrease your focus.
Raven117
Member
I suggested another path. One that he may want to consider as “old school” as it is. If you get strong, in the low rep ranges (like 6 months on a linear progression), then switch over to 3x8-10 (or whatever) you are going to be able to move considerably more weight than if you just tried 3x8-10 right off the bat.
We clearly both understand how this works. I don’t disagree with much, if anything, you said. I absolutely know that what you are saying is the modern view on it.
But disregarding straight up strength training will slow your progress down long term. Some guys cycle, 3 months hypertrophy, 3 months strength… this is a pretty good approach.
I think, barring anything unique is (1) slim down if chunky, (2) train for strength for 6-9 months, (3) either do a small cut, or switch to hypertophy. You will be strong and jacked.
Last edited:
The guys with big muscles use steroids. Isolation exercises are great for steroid users obsessed with aesthetic proportions since they can fine tune each muscle.
Compound barbell movements are good for natural lifters since you get the highest CNS adaptation and hormonal response from heavy compound movements. You get strong, you look good, and you don't need to spend your life in the gym.
Aces High
Gold Member
People tend overestimate the effect of steroids and underestimate the effect of genetics. A person with great genetics for bodybuilding will always get bigger muscles natural than a person with unfavorable genetics will get with steroids. A young Arnold Schwarzenegger could take all the EPO in this world and he would never win the Tour de France nor would he become a halfway decent cyclist.
Natural bodybuilders and steroid-using bodybuilders train and eat with adherence to the exact same principles. The only difference is the training volume.
Compound barbell movements with low rep-range are great to make your body stronger. Can you build muscle with barbell compounds ? Yes. It is an effective way to build muscle? No. With compound movements, your strongest muscle groups will get stronger. Your weakest muscle groups will fall behind even further. If you have dominant triceps for example, you will get a big triceps with bench presses but your chest will suck. If you have a wide collarbone, your chest will also suck because you are gonna be shoulder dominant. The longer you train this way, the more imbalanced your physique will become. Isolateral isolation movements will not only add to your phyisque. They are functional and will reduce the risk of injury.
Uh-huh. Everyone in the fitness industry is on PEDs, especially "natural bodybuilders."
Aces High
Gold Member
There's an incredibly huge amount of people in the fitness industry that claim to be natural while they are not, yes. I also get the feeling that being natural often means different things in different regions. In the USA for example, TRT almost officially counts as natural which it obviously isn't.
People often forget that a single steroid cycle makes you "enhanced" for the rest of your life. You cannot be natural after you did a single cycle. The reason is that while a natural bodybuilder can only increase the size of his muscle cells, a guy running a steroid cycle will increase the number of muscle cells. This is otherwise only possible during male puberty. These additional muscle cells will stay forever even if you stop juicing and they will give you an advantage in anything related to lifting weights for the rest of your life.
No matter where you look in life, there will always be cheaters and liars. That doesn't change the fact that what I said above is true, though.
In bodybuilding forums, the steroid sections are usually not visible to the public because there's a chance that kids are reading. Let me make this clear for all other users here that have no deeper knowledge on this topic: Steroids will eventually kill you. They will deal immense amount of damage to your body. This damage is in most cases irreparable and will impact quality of life in a long lasting way. When asked if they would take steroids again if they could turn back time, the vast majority of professional bodybuilders says "no". And these guys made a living with it.
I don't like it when people say "Every guy with great physique is on roids". Statements like these will only lead to more kids jumping on the AAS train. I can assure you that everyone, no matter the age, race or gender, can achieve an amazing physique naturally. The results won't be Arnold-level, but they will be much better than people usually dare to imagine. All it takes is a clear vision, dedication and patience.
Aces High
Gold Member
Here's a pro tip from Chris Aceto that works really great:
Stop eating any carbs at all and slowly increase your activity level. Go for a short walk three times a day and slowly keep increasing the distance.
Once you have lowered your bodyweight to 99 kg, start lifting weights and switch to a balanced diet with lean protein, healthy fats and slow carbs.
Raven117
Member
This. Both on the steroids use and on the compound barbell movements.
Also true. Genetics are absolutely huge in the high levels. You are also right that working say in the 5 rep range will emphasize strength rather than size. That said, you will get bigger in this rep range though, especially if you are eating enough. Someone who can bench 3x5 of 225 is going to be bigger than someone doing 3x10 of 185 (on average, sure there are some genetic freaks). At no point did I advocate that someone train for strength forever or be a powerlifter. Yes, there are imbalances that can occur, but that can be evened out once you get your numbers up.
You have yet to address my suggestion that if someone who takes their squat up from 155 to 315 in six-nine months doing 3x5, 5x5 (or some variation thereof), then switches to higher rep ranges where they can now do 295 3x8, why that wont create more muscle than someone who went from 155 to 250 doing 3x8. (And that is being GENEROUS on that kind of strength gain...as most "hypertrophy" programs will not have someone squatting enough to get those numbers up that high).
Man, I tell ya. I just didn't' realize how prevalent all of this is now. Hell, I saw a dude take a syringe in the ass in a LA Fitness locker room. There are even signs talking about PEDs in the locker room.
Krap is going to come back in this thread and wonder what the heck happened?!
But all of this is good stuff for this thread.
Last edited:
k1m1d4n
Member
This is exactly what has been crossing my mind the last few days.
So much information from two "different" points of view. It's exactly what a forum is supposed to be. Knowledge, debate, information
This helped me realize what I need to do in order to continue on the road I am now in the best way possible.
I thank you all for your inputs on these last weeks
You are the best
So much information from two "different" points of view. It's exactly what a forum is supposed to be. Knowledge, debate, information
This helped me realize what I need to do in order to continue on the road I am now in the best way possible.
I thank you all for your inputs on these last weeks
You are the best
Raven117
Member
Ha. Good deal. What did you decide on? (There are no wrong answers...well...there are...but those wrong answers haven't been discussed in these last few pages). In the end. Working out hard and challenging yourself with the right exercises. Eating right. Is going to get most people down the road to where they want to be.This is exactly what has been crossing my mind the last few days.
So much information from two "different" points of view. It's exactly what a forum is supposed to be. Knowledge, debate, information
This helped me realize what I need to do in order to continue on the road I am now in the best way possible.
I thank you all for your inputs on these last weeks
You are the best
k1m1d4n
Member
I've always considered myself a "jack of all trades master of none" type of person.
Lately I've been focusing too much on how I'm supposed to look instead of focusing on what I've achieved so far.
I'll keep doing my 12 weeks tactical barbell routine intercalated with 4-6 weeks hypertrophy on the same exercises.
All that while not forgetting why I started doing exercise in the first place. Freedom
I can do parkour, bouldering, play ninja warrior with the kids, straddle planche on the parallel bars, a press handstand, a very clean muscle up on the rings, I teach young guys how to achieve a front lever in a street workout park I helped build in my city, I'm a taekwondo black belt and I also teach taekwondo to kids, and I recently discovered something called rope flow that I'll start doing...
I run, I jump, I swim, I climb... I'm free I can do whatever I want and that is why I train.
Unfortunately I was starting to forget why I started it all.
So that is my road... The road in the middle where I can be anything
Last edited:
Raven117
Member
Holy smokes man! This is badass stuff right here!
Aces High
Gold Member
Bing strong gives you an edge in professional bodybuilding. If you can lift heavy and with great form, your muscles will get a different structure. You can't win Mister Olympia (open) if you're not strong.
If you have two guys with the same genetics (bone structure, muscle fibre distribution, hormones, etc), the one who trained like a bodybuilder will be bigger independent from the weight he can move. The one who trained like a powerlifter will be stronger independent from the muscles he has.
Here you'll get the same information I am trying to explain from two of the best bodybuilders of all time:
Raven117
Member
Of course. No argument there from a strict sense.
But if you are just an average dude. Wants to get healthy… wants to look good and is patient… why not get strong for 6-9 months then switch to hypertrophy? Wouldn’t this approach get you both strong and big? And get you there faster? (In the end…. So what for both? someone wants to bodybuild… then they will stick with it…if they want to powerlift, then will stick with that…. It’s whatever one will stick to).
All this focus on professional lifters (both bodybuilding and powerfifting) misses the point for most people.
jufonuk
not tag worthy
Been on holiday at my mums with my kids.
So far every day except one (where we walked up for a long time) I have done some kettlebell work
youtube.com
Adding in side swings after kettlebell swings
It seems simple but over the rounds it kicks your ass. Anyway I found it good because you want to develop the habit of waking up early and exercising
Yeah am not fit w light to do the five but I’ve done the three
So far every day except one (where we walked up for a long time) I have done some kettlebell work
Is This The Best Workout For Weight Loss?
Get our FREE 15-min Kettlebell workout, at: https://youtu.be/VUGZaHkJy3E🔥 Our Weight Loss Program: http://bit.ly/ff30x-yt———————————————————————————————————...
youtube.com
Adding in side swings after kettlebell swings
It seems simple but over the rounds it kicks your ass. Anyway I found it good because you want to develop the habit of waking up early and exercising
Yeah am not fit w light to do the five but I’ve done the three
Aces High
Gold Member
If someone is completely new to this stuff, I'd recommend him to take a look inside and be 100% clear about his true motivations. As humans, we all have subconscious desires and chase after that image of what we want to be for ourselves and others.
Be true to yourself: What do you hope to achieve by hitting the gym?
Some people aim to become better at their primary sports activity by doing weight lifting as a complementary activity. These people will benefit greatly from functional strength training with different compound movements and isolation exercises. Even in this case, limiting yourself to only barbell exercises is not a good idea at all. A soccer player will benefit from doing leg extensions, which is a machine-based isolation movement. A cyclist will benefit from doing isolation exercises for his calves. Boxers do lots of compound pushing movements at the gym, but they also do isolation exercises for their shoulders and arms. If a boxer needs to up his weight, he will go through a true hypertrophy phase that follows the same training principles of what bodybuilders do.
Then you have people who go to the gym to stay fit and healthy. Limiting these people to barbell movements will eventually lead to injury since barbell movements create muscular imbalances within your body. In many cases, people who had a disc prolapse can't do any barbell compounds at all because the axial stress on the spine is too high when they use weights that create a training effect on their muscles. At a certain age it would be absolutely reckless to train with low rep ranges, anyway. The risk of injury is way too high.
Most people I know go to the gym because they just want to look good. For these people, a strength based barbell routine is not helpful at all because how you look at the end of this strength phase is pure luck as it's based on genetics. As I said earlier, if you do 9 months of bench pressing with a barbell, you can be lucky an have a balanced physique, you can get super big triceps with small chest, super big front delts with small triceps and chest, and so on. Barbell strength training will magnify your body's original strengths and weaknesses. A lot of people do barbell training and get the T-Rex look because they're not creating enough stimulus on their arm muscles. For someone who went to the gym for looks only, this can be very frustrating. There are guys on YouTube who have a great physique and claim to be only doing barbell movements. But in most cases these guys are on roids or a straight out lying because they want to populate a niche that connects with people who have a soft spot for old-school pumping iron style of training as portrayed in countless Hollywood movies. And I can assure you: the actor who does the bench press with fake weights in cinema used machines and isolation movements to get his physique.
People usually misunderstand the concept of "functional strength". They think only because they do strength training in the gym will make them a stronger individual. But this isn't the case. Strength is always movement-based. No exception. What are you gonna do if some big guy threatens you? Deadlift him until he's knocked out? If you train deadlift's, you'll become better at deadlift-like movements. That's it. If you do bench presses, you'll become stronger at bench-press-like movements. Do a movement that you didn't train in the gym and you'll be just as strong as your individual biomechanics allow you to be. And if you switch from a barbell-based strength routine to a hypertrophy routine, you will have to relearn every movement from ground up anyway. Powerlifters "cheat" as much as possible during their movements in order to lift as much weight as possible. Bodybuilders do the exact opposite. Doing strength training first and then switch to a bodybuilding routine is like doing sprint training before training for a marathon. Both has to do with running, but the principles are diametrically opposed.
Doing strength training will make you a better powerlifter and powerlifting is awesome. It's a fascinating sport opposed to bodybuilding which is - let's be honest - not a sport, but a beauty contest. But the benefits of a barbell-based strength training routine with low rep ranges are vastly overstated. And this is coming from a guy who's favorite exercise are deadlifts.
K2D
Banned
Thinking of going on a calorie deficit diet as of today. Been on my mind for a good while. Give me your worst!
Currently weighing ~115 kg (250 lbs), looking at a goal of losing ~20 kg (45lbs). Have set period time frame of 2-3 months depending on how it goes come October.
Not planning on counting caleries, at least for the first weeks, but rather going for an approximation. I'm looking at plans containing 800 calories per day ( I'm 180cm (5'11"?), bmi of ~36)
A big part of the dieting will mean sticking to one serving, drinking more water (or green tea), removing snacks and sweets from my day. Maybe chew on some vegetables or nori paper (lol).
Currently suffering from runners knee(?) and impinchment/rotary cuff injury, so I don't know how dieting will affect the healing process yet.
After reading up a bit, I think 800 kcal is a bit hazardous.. dangerous actually. I think I'll up it to 1200.
I'll try that, thank you! Might even add some weight in a backpack. Weight training was the plan, as fast as my shoulder allows it.
Raven117
Member
First, I've really enjoyed our conversation. I think its good to have two different points of view for folks to take a look at and figure out the best way to achieve their goals.
Couldn't agree more. I do think the general population would benefit from straight up strength training (especially as they get older...myself included) rather than bodybuilding TO START (again, I'm not talking about pros here. I'm talking about normal joes) more than bodybuilding right off the bat as the big compound movements do enforce more natural movement patters. Standing up (squat), picking heavy stuff off the floor (deadlift), etc. etc. But, these benefits can also be seen with some bodybuilding. And if strength training is not something someone likes, they wont stick to it likely (I'm stubborn and honestly it took me years to even get to a place where I didn't mind going to the gym....Im a tall, lanky, endurance athlete rather run than do anything).
This, I don't really agree with. ISO exercises for specific sports is not good training as sports rely on a many interconnected systems. For example, leg extension for a soccer player is not good training. What about that movement pattern is strong for a soccer player? Thats not how the leg moves during the sport. Moreover, if you loaded it heavy enough to challenge you, it puts your knees in a weak position and that exercise particularly is prone to injury. For a soccer player (or cyclist) squats, deadlift, heavy lunges, maybe bulgarian split squat, are where they are going to want to be. (But working in some different rep rangers. 1-5 for squat and deadlift, lunges and split squats 8-12...depending on their training cycle). Working out calves specifically is not a great use of time for any athlete. As for boxers and weight, more difficult of a question...but as a general rule...they want to be stronger per lb than bigger. Under very few circumstances do they want to go up in weight and not be considerably stronger.
Most people do go the gym to stay fit and healthy. Totally agree. But I disagree on "at a certain age, it would be absolutely reckless to train with low reps." Yes, training must change as people age, but holding onto strength as we get older is paramount! Lifting as much as can be tolerated safely is a better way to train. If its twice a week for 5 sets of 3 doing the most that can be tolerated with good form in very basic movement patters (again, squats, deadlift, press), is going to keep them healthier and stronger longer than having them do iso leg exercises or a pec deck. Again, I'm not talking about a huge amount of weight here, I'm talking about enough to keep some moderate pressure on the system. Hell, some old people are strong as hell, I saw a video of a 70 year old squat 405 and a 90 year old deadlift 405 (huge exceptions, I know). Imbalances are a concern, you are right, but again, I've never said barbell only and forever. I said get strong, then do what you want (ie, take a run at your novice linear progression for a good while...get strong, then start tweaking).
Ah, now we are getting to it. This really is where the debate lies. Do you want to simply look good or actually be strong. (Again, normal people here, pros are different animals). Its hard to know how people will respond to different stimulus. For me, I got considerably bigger and eff more stronger on 3x5 squats, press, bench than I did on 3x8/3x12. To say, you wont get bigger and look good working in the lower rep ranges is bullshit. I'm not a trainer, but anecdotally, ive seen this transformation happen in people working in this rep range (again, normal folks) get both bigger and stronger. (I've seen it in the 3x8-12 range as well, but they usually aren't AS strong as the 3x5ers aren't AS big...but the different is not all that much in this beginning phase). And lets be honest here, most youtubers building great physiques are all on the juice bodybuilding or powerlifting.
In the end, this is where I come out and a suggestion that I think will work for most people if they are patient and willing to work at it. (1) if chunky lose weight first this can be done in a variety of ways, but I do think the 3x8-12 range with cardio is a good way to do this) If not chunky, go to step 2. (2) Strength phase. for 6-9 months, go for it. See how strong you can get eating over maintenance and lifting heavy on the big compounds running your novice linear progression...bail before everything gets crazy heavy (3) Switch back to the 3x8-12 range and start tinkering with a cut, imbalances and the rest of the vanity. This is a long time, so it may not be as accessible to many people who are unsure if they want to commit for that long. If they just want to lose a few kilos just stay in phase one. Look, I understand that many people, especially without a good coach, don't want to heavy squat or deadlift. Understood, thats mentally taxing and spooky if you aren't sure what you are doing. That's why I put it in phase 2.
Well, yeah, you can't deadlift a big guy (but the thought made me laugh). But the rest of this is effing bullshit at least as it applies to me (and willing to bet many others). The specific example I'm thinking of is OHP. When I started to incorporate OHP barbell into my training, heavy. 3x5...I did that for 4 months. When I tried some Dumbell presses, seated, I doubled the amount of weight I used to do in the higher rep range. Same with DB bench press. 33% more on my lunges at the higher rep range. Sure, we can think of a few exercises that will have to be trained from the ground up...but ISO work and machines are easy to learn and much less mentally taxing.
As for the sprint/marathon, thats interesting. I guess this is where we differ and it really does depend on who is the person making the decision, their resources, and what they want. Jumping into Squats and Deadlifts can be alot for someone who just signed up at globo-gym. Its much easier to tinker around with the dumbells and the machines as its easier as a beginner. You can't load up as much weight, its not so dramatic of movement. (And come on, the beginners are not thinking of the mind-muscle connection here). But if they aren't chunky (because we both agree...gaining weight on strenght or hypertrophy while already chunky will lead to just getting discouraged as a lifter...you want to see some results), getting stronger quicker will then lead to better hypertrophy in the long run because they move more weight. Someone who can bench 3x5 of 225 bench press will be able to use Dumbells at say 80 or 90 for 8-12. This is going to lead to much better hypertrophy than someone who went from 30lbs to 60lbs doing 3x8-12.
I don't think its overstated at all. Getting stronger is going to be more beneficial to a normal person in the long run than being able to iso bicep curl to chase the pump. (And don't get me wrong, I freakin love the pump).
To me, its the mix of the two. I think getting a stronger base before you go hypertrophy is the better path for most people if they want long term success, but if someone just wants 3-4 months of hitting the gym and losing some weight, work in the 3x8-12 range. Or, do something like Jeff Nippards (ex powerlifter turned bodybuilder) Fundamentals of Hypertrophy. I enjoyed this program for a few months before I leaned into strenght straight up. He has Squats 3x6, Deadlift 3x5, Bench 3x8 (on different days), then works up into the higher rep ranges and iso movements as the workout goes on.
This is a really good way to go about things....get a feel for what you like and what direction you want to go. And go for it.
I like deadlifts too! Squats are my nemesis. Im 6'5"...its alot to fold down there.
Last edited:
Raven117
Member
You probably want a bit more than 1200, thats still pretty aggressive, but try it for a bit and see how you feel. If you are shooting for 1200 but then getting about 1600 to 1800 then thats going to be a bit better in terms of holding on to your muscle. Just monitor it. If you feel like shit (Im talking shit...not just hungry), recalibrate.
Aces High
Gold Member
Never go below basal metabolic rate (BMR) which is around 1800 kcal for a healthy male. Eating below BMR will burn your lean body mass in no time and crash your metabolism. This means you'll 100% get a nasty yoyo effect and end up even fatter than before.
Instead, just slowly up your activity level und reduce carbs. Or, as I recommended earlier, just stop eating carbs altogether until you've made it from obese to overweight. Then switch to a balanced diet and instead of lowering calories, start weightlifting.
It doesn't matter if you're trying to lose fat or build muscle: transforming your body takes time. Be patient. Crash dieting or crash bulking has never helped anyone. In fact, it's highly unhealthy. Your body stores environmental toxins in fat cells. Burning fat will release these toxins into your bloodstream. Crash dieting will not only kill your metabolism (which is a pain to fix), it will also put immense stress on your liver. And now guess which organ is responsible for fat metabolism...
Instead, just slowly up your activity level und reduce carbs. Or, as I recommended earlier, just stop eating carbs altogether until you've made it from obese to overweight. Then switch to a balanced diet and instead of lowering calories, start weightlifting.
It doesn't matter if you're trying to lose fat or build muscle: transforming your body takes time. Be patient. Crash dieting or crash bulking has never helped anyone. In fact, it's highly unhealthy. Your body stores environmental toxins in fat cells. Burning fat will release these toxins into your bloodstream. Crash dieting will not only kill your metabolism (which is a pain to fix), it will also put immense stress on your liver. And now guess which organ is responsible for fat metabolism...
Raven117
Member
Raven117
Member
Ive been straight up trying to gain weight for the last 9 months. Eating in surplus. I’m gaining weight but it still seems like I’m gaining weight and not eating up to even maintenance (via online calculators). Don’t know if my metabolism is still screwed up, or what.
But thanks for the advice!
Aces High
Gold Member
Gaining weight can mean a lot of things. Could be muscle mass. Could be fat. Could be just water which is often confused with both muscle or fat.
Also keep in mind that your weight will jump up and down over the course of the week. This is completely normal. It's best to weigh yourself under the same conditions over the course of 4-6 weeks before you adjust your diet.
Example: Let's say your weight is 190 lbs. You step on the scale with boxershorts every Saturday morning after peeing. You do this for 6 weeks. Let's say your weight after 6 weeks is 194 lbs. Then you just do the math 4 lbs / 6 weeks = 0,66 lbs mass gain per week. Which is perfect if your goal was to increase mass. Watch your macros and you'll be fine. A moderate caloric surplus with high carb intake will bring your metabolism back on track.
How much calories you need is individual. A male pro bodybuilder will still eat over 4000 kcal if he wants to lose body fat. The harder you train and the higher your activity level, the more calories you will need.
Raven117
Member
I know there is both some muscle and fat going on with the weight gain. (Thats a good thing for me. I got too low a body fat % without enough muscle built up to go along with it. I looked like I had health issues, but I had abs!)
With my weight gain, certainly there is some water retention going on as well. I usually weigh on training days....so three times a week, in the morning, after I pee.
Also, I've started taking creatine, this has made my weight jump up like 6-9 pounds. This normal?
Im trying to aim for about 1 pound a week of mass. Unless my macro counting is WAY off (which it isn't), my caloric needs just aren't as high as the online calculators suggest. Like, pretty far off. I should take your advice and eat more carbs (I eat carbs, and protein about 1 gram per lb of body weight...a bit less), to try and get my metabolism back running hotter. Its been 9 months since I decided to gain weight rather than grinding on a cut, and it still seems my metabolism is off.
To put it all in perspective, Im 6'5", and on November 20th 2022 (or so), I was 164.8 pounds. I cut from about 220 (skinny fat), in January 2021 to that. Now, I'm scale weight of 210. (This includes the recent creatine weight gain) and have been lifting heavy...a mix of hypertrophy and strength.
Thank you for your advice on this.
Last edited:
Aces High
Gold Member
It's important to understand that your metabolism is linked to your lean body mass. The bigger your muscles, the more calories you need. When you crash diet, your metabolism will slow down because you lose lean body mass.
Why is this a pain to fix? Because your body will burn through muscles much faster than through body fat. A pound of body fat can serve your body with about 3,500 kcal. A pound of muscle tissue will yield only 600 kcal.
Your body has to burn through 6 pounds of muscle to get the same amount of energy that it can get from one pound of fat. If you understand this and think back how hard it was to put on the muscle in the first place, you will never ever crash diet again.
The best way to diet is by staying away from your basal metabolic rate as far as possible. For the average adult male I would always aim to eat around 3,000 kcal on training with high carbs and low fats, and 2,500 kcal on rest days with medium to low carbs and medium fats. Protein has to be at 250-300 g every day to protect your muscle. Eat clean and the highest quality foods.
With this baseline, try to increase your activity level until you lose up to one pound of body weight every week. Increase training intensity to the max. Don't add unnecessary volume. Do 10k steps minimum every day. Add 30 min cardio if necessary. If you stop losing weight, reduce the amount of carbs very slightly. Proteins and fats should always stay the same. Once your bodyfat becomes closer to the percentage you want it to be, stop doing any cardio at all. Just do 10k steps per day.
Why is this a pain to fix? Because your body will burn through muscles much faster than through body fat. A pound of body fat can serve your body with about 3,500 kcal. A pound of muscle tissue will yield only 600 kcal.
Your body has to burn through 6 pounds of muscle to get the same amount of energy that it can get from one pound of fat. If you understand this and think back how hard it was to put on the muscle in the first place, you will never ever crash diet again.
The best way to diet is by staying away from your basal metabolic rate as far as possible. For the average adult male I would always aim to eat around 3,000 kcal on training with high carbs and low fats, and 2,500 kcal on rest days with medium to low carbs and medium fats. Protein has to be at 250-300 g every day to protect your muscle. Eat clean and the highest quality foods.
With this baseline, try to increase your activity level until you lose up to one pound of body weight every week. Increase training intensity to the max. Don't add unnecessary volume. Do 10k steps minimum every day. Add 30 min cardio if necessary. If you stop losing weight, reduce the amount of carbs very slightly. Proteins and fats should always stay the same. Once your bodyfat becomes closer to the percentage you want it to be, stop doing any cardio at all. Just do 10k steps per day.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
It was much easier in my twenties lol. I've put on some muscle in the last few months but I've maintained the same fat percentage I think.
Raven117
Member
Man, that kal from fat v muscle is incredible. When I finally go on a cut, (which won’t be for awhile… I still don’t think my resting metabolic rate is where it should be…. So I want to keep the fires stoked) I’ll be following this advice exactly. Building muscle is way harder to do than losing fat.
Aces High
Gold Member
It's a matter of genetics first and foremost, but also depends on how advanced you are.
If two average guys go to the gym, the one with better biomechanics will built more muscles. Better biomechanics in this case means that the guy will train with correct form for hypertrophy by default. For these guys, building muscle comes naturally. People with "bad" genetics on the other side will have to learn how to move their body in order to achieve a hypertrophy stimulus at all. This can take a lot of time, but it always pays off.
That's pretty much the biggest genetic factor until you're advanced enough to enter natural amateur bodybuilding competitions. People are freaking out about their hormones and whatnot and think they can never grow big without steroids. Sure, a 20 year old will in theory grow faster than a 40 year old due to better hormone levels, but with correct form, the 40 year old can still grow much bigger when the 20 year old trains like 99% of gym goers.
Once you reach this level, there are many other genetic factors that come into play if you aim to advance further. The digestive system is one of the most important. If your guts can't handle high amounts of food, you will struggle a lot. Sleep and regeneration is another important factor. You can't advance to pro-level splits like Push Pull Legs if you can't regenerate the volume.
If you go to the gym for more than two years and you don't look like a natural bodybuilder, you have to fix your training. Reduce volume. Increase intensity. Learn correct form. The worse your biomechanics are, the tougher it is to learn correct form.
Nutrition is the easy part. You can fix problems with your nutrition immediately and it's not hard to do right at all.
Raven117
Member
Meh, for the vast majority of average folks, they will have to work at building muscle (ie, go workout). A function of training and nutrition (gotta eat).
Losing fat is merely a matter of nutrition (how you lose it is another matter, ie protein intake/resistance training at the same time to minimize muscle loss).
This is not taking into account the mental aspect of this. For some people, cutting calories is very difficult. For others, its easy.
The bolded is essentially my point.
(Everything you say in your post is in fact accurate).
Last edited:
Putonahappyface
Gold Member
Aces High
have you ever tried stronglifts 5x5? I did strong lifts for over a decade and put on crazy size and strength mostly using free weights and some plate loading and cable machines. No way could I have got my gains without free weights. I appreciate your wealth of knowledge dwarves mine, I'm just going by my own personal experience.I've had a few lower back injuries over the years so I've stuck to pyramid training 4x12 for the last 13 years and my strength and size are similar but no way near to when I did stronglifts.
To be fair my biggest lifts were in my early twenties and I'm 40 now. Without Creatine I don't think I could plow through my workouts.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- x2