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[rififi]

I just had a cheat meal (or a normal meal for the average american), and I feel like utter shit.
I can't understand how people eat like that everyday, it's disgusting.

 

[Petrie]

I just had a cheat meal (or a normal meal for the average american), and I feel like utter shit.
I can't understand how people eat like that everyday, it's disgusting.

Their bodies are so used to it, they feel like shit if they don't eat that way.

 

[abuC]

I just had a cheat meal (or a normal meal for the average american), and I feel like utter shit.
I can't understand how people eat like that everyday, it's disgusting.

I've eaten twice since Monday due to a stomach virus - one yogurt yesterday and chicken noodle soup / roll today.

For most of today I've thought about what I will eat tomorrow, and I can't wait...CAN'T WAIT.

 

[Ashhong]

Woo good workout! Reducing my sets to 3 from 5 for Stronglifts really helped I think. Either that or I just had a good day, we'll see in the future. I feel tired but not overly tired. Was able to do a lot of accessory work too without being too exhausted. I think it's just those big lifts that kill me.

 

[Hanzou]

I just had a cheat meal (or a normal meal for the average american), and I feel like utter shit.
I can't understand how people eat like that everyday, it's disgusting.

Meh. I eat pretty healthy but I can eat a giant fat and carb loaded meal an still feel great physically.

 

[FallingEdge]

Meh. I eat pretty healthy but I can eat a giant fat and carb loaded meal an still feel great physically.

I tend to go crazy when I go to Taco Bell. I know it is bad but it is so good.

 

[HarryHengst]

Sometimes a big, disgusting cheat meal is awesome. Especially when you are drunk. :lol


Still feel like shit the day after though, especially once you got to hit the toilet.

 

[Ashhong]

So let me get this straight, since I'm relatively skinny and need to bulk up, I should be eating anything and everything right? Including the meals that you all consider cheat meals? This will help me to gain more muscle then when I device, I cut to lose the fat and expose the muscle?

 

[bananaman1234]

I wouldn't just eat everything with no regards to the amount of calories you are consuming. Your body can only build so much muscle in a given amount of time so you'll just end up unnecessarily fat.

 

[HarryHengst]

So let me get this straight, since I'm relatively skinny and need to bulk up, I should be eating anything and everything right? Including the meals that you all consider cheat meals? This will help me to gain more muscle then when I device, I cut to lose the fat and expose the muscle?

If you are skinny you wont have much muscles to show to begin with, even on a low bodyfat %. And you might get some muscles simply from beginner gains even when eating at a deficit, but its not really efficient. So yes, you'll have to eat a lot (probably 3000+ calories a day) to build muscles. After you made some good gains you can start a cutting phase to get rid of the added fat.

 

[Ashhong]

Yea I feel like I have passed beginner gains, based on wat I'm lifting compared to my weight, and it's my diet that's holding me back. Going to try alot harder to eat more, I eat very little currently

 

[Veezy]

Yea I feel like I have passed beginner gains, based on wat I'm lifting compared to my weight, and it's my diet that's holding me back. Going to try alot harder to eat more, I eat very little currently

You need to find what works best for you, in terms of getting enough calories in. For some people, multiple small meals work. For others, three large meals are best. Don't worry about the timing of the meals right now. Also, some "not so good" for you foods (pizza, burgers, etc.) are okay. Just don't go overboard and make sure their quality crap (i.e. avoid candy and soda. No sense eating 200 calories worth of sugar).

If you'd like some more explicit numbers to aim for, I'd try to get 1g per pound of body weight in fat and protein and around 18-20 calories per lb of body weight. If you're training heavy this won't make you fat, you'll make gains, won't be hungry all the time, and can have pie. Pie is good.

 

[Talka]

So when lifting is giving me lower back pain, but only on my right side.

Squats seem the likely suspect. I keep reading and watching videos and trying to learn and adjust and do it right (I'm not doing heavy weights at the moment, just trying to get the movement right). I'm guessing I'm rounding my lower back, but I don't notice it. And nothing I've read addresses why my pain would be localized on one side. I take the bar in the middle and go straight down. I don't get it. Any advice?

 

[Singher25]

I just have a question regarding starting strength and when to move up to a intermediate program.

I've been doing starting strength for roughly around 2 years and in the past 4 months i have made no strength gains. It's becoming really frustrating failing or having to deload. I think i'm at the point where i need to switch programs. Any suggestions for intermediate program? I was thinking of doing texas method.

Here are what my lifts are at right now

Squats- 305x5
Deadlifts- 260x5 (injured back)
Bench 205x5
shoulder press 140x5
Chin ups 70lbs added x5
Pull ups 55lbs added x 5
Weight 160 lbs
Age:20

Are those numbers good enough to go to an intermediate program? I don't have know when you are supposed to move up or what numbers you are supposed to have.

 

[Singher25]

So when lifting is giving me lower back pain, but only on my right side.

Squats seem the likely suspect. I keep reading and watching videos and trying to learn and adjust and do it right (I'm not doing heavy weights at the moment, just trying to get the movement right). I'm guessing I'm rounding my lower back, but I don't notice it. And nothing I've read addresses why my pain would be localized on one side. I take the bar in the middle and go straight down. I don't get it. Any advice?

I had the same problem except it was on my left side. Is the pain located around the SI joint (kinda right above the butt)? For me it was that I had an anterior pelvic tilt, which seems to be a pretty common problem for back pain. It could be that you aren't activating your glutes and your hamstrings enough and relying primarily on your quads in squats. For me i stretched everyday and strengthened my glutes and the pain completely went away

hope that helps

 

[Ashhong]

You need to find what works best for you, in terms of getting enough calories in. For some people, multiple small meals work. For others, three large meals are best. Don't worry about the timing of the meals right now. Also, some "not so good" for you foods (pizza, burgers, etc.) are okay. Just don't go overboard and make sure their quality crap (i.e. avoid candy and soda. No sense eating 200 calories worth of sugar).


If you'd like some more explicit numbers to aim for, I'd try to get 1g per pound of body weight in fat and protein and around 18-20 calories per lb of body weight. If you're training heavy this won't make you fat, you'll make gains, won't be hungry all the time, and can have pie. Pie is good.

Cool thanks. Will try to focus more on this now.

So when lifting is giving me lower back pain, but only on my right side.

Squats seem the likely suspect. I keep reading and watching videos and trying to learn and adjust and do it right (I'm not doing heavy weights at the moment, just trying to get the movement right). I'm guessing I'm rounding my lower back, but I don't notice it. And nothing I've read addresses why my pain would be localized on one side. I take the bar in the middle and go straight down. I don't get it. Any advice?

You say you're going straight down. Are you sticking your ass out and making that arc in your back first?

 

[J Tourettes]

I just have a question regarding starting strength and when to move up to a intermediate program.

I've been doing starting strength for roughly around 2 years and in the past 4 months i have made no strength gains. It's becoming really frustrating failing or having to deload. I think i'm at the point where i need to switch programs. Any suggestions for intermediate program? I was thinking of doing texas method.

Here are what my lifts are at right now

Squats- 305x5
Deadlifts- 260x5 (injured back)
Bench 205x5
shoulder press 140x5
Chin ups 70lbs added x5
Pull ups 55lbs added x 5
Weight 160 lbs
Age:20

Are those numbers good enough to go to an intermediate program? I don't have know when you are supposed to move up or what numbers you are supposed to have.

I thought when you stalled three times it was time to move on? Those numbers look like they're all firmly in the intermediate section of the strength standard charts so it probably is time to move on.

 

[Mr_eX]

Ive been thinking about finding a place for a weekly of bi-weekly massage, but that seems like a lot of money I could put elsewhere.

I was at the mall the other day and I noticed a place that gives 10 minute, 30 minute, 1 hour and 2 hour massages(they talked me into getting one, it was my first Chinese massage and it was pretty great). If you could find a similar place, 2 10 minute massages a week shouldn't cost you too much(I think it was around $10 for 10 minutes at this place).

 

[HarryHengst]

I just have a question regarding starting strength and when to move up to a intermediate program.

I've been doing starting strength for roughly around 2 years and in the past 4 months i have made no strength gains. It's becoming really frustrating failing or having to deload. I think i'm at the point where i need to switch programs. Any suggestions for intermediate program? I was thinking of doing texas method.

Here are what my lifts are at right now

Squats- 305x5
Deadlifts- 260x5 (injured back)
Bench 205x5
shoulder press 140x5
Chin ups 70lbs added x5
Pull ups 55lbs added x 5
Weight 160 lbs
Age:20

Are those numbers good enough to go to an intermediate program? I don't have know when you are supposed to move up or what numbers you are supposed to have.

Two years should be more than enough to move to another program.

 

[diamondstar]

So long as you're recovering pretty safely from deadlifting twice a week, it looks good. I'd swap the bent over rows for one arm dumbbell rows (easier on the back, easier to keep proper form with, helps with individual arm weakness) and alternate the pull ups with neutral grip and chin ups.

As for your question about the bench, yes you'll just do flat bench. Since you're doing OHPs, you're going to get better shoulder development than you would with an incline press. Eventually, you'll probably reach a point where you'll cut back to squatting twice a week and deadlifting once a week. When that happens, should your wish, you can add some assistance exercises to the mix to kinda fill in the gaps (something like GSLP).

On your endurance day, make sure you're doing short and intense sessions. Like a brutal ten minutes session. Long slow distance running doesn't assist in muscle gains while a barbell complex will assist in strength, endurance, and hypertrophy while making you exhausted.

Thanks for the info.. Another question. I really don't mind my current workout and think I am doing pretty good. Should I even consider trying this new routine? I mean I have been lifting since high school off and on, never this serious though. So am I really a beginner?

I know I will have to make my own decisions based on the information here and EVERYWHERE. That is one of the hardest things about actually training seriously.. There is so much information out there about what is right and what is wrong that it is easy to get overwhelmed.

And with the endurance. I am doing some long distance because I plan to do a mini-marathon in May so that is the only type of running I have been doing. So I switch to short and intense sessions even though I need distance.. Again... damn this shit is overwhelming.

 

[diamondstar]

If you are skinny you wont have much muscles to show to begin with, even on a low bodyfat %. And you might get some muscles simply from beginner gains even when eating at a deficit, but its not really efficient. So yes, you'll have to eat a lot (probably 3000+ calories a day) to build muscles. After you made some good gains you can start a cutting phase to get rid of the added fat.

I think I am doing it backwards. I definitely want to get pretty big but my first goal is to get a flat ab showing stomach. I have lost weight with dieting it seems. I just eat really light meals..mostly anything chicken breast and vegetable related.

Should I be okay if I stay on my current path of dieting to lose body fat and then bulk up muscle wise?

 

[J-A-G]

Has anyone here tried Leangains and/or any other type of intermittent fasting? I've been doing for about the last twenty days, and I have to say I'm pleased with the results so far. Strength has gone up, and weight has come down. I was about 225 when I started on 03/25, and now I'm down to 217 or so when I weighed myself yesterday (I'm 6"2, btw). While it was initially water weight that I've lost, I've definitely felt leaner and have felt less fat around my body, so I think I must be cutting into some of that fat right now.

Also, yesterday I couldn't have a full meal until around dinner, so the only thing I ate from about 7 AM to 6 PM was one fruit parfait and a cup of coffee (and this was on a workout day). I came back to my apartment, and I cooked about a pound of ground beef, a six egg omoleat, a baked potato, a bowl of oatmeal, and two glasses of milk. Funny thing is, I didn't really have an urge to go to the bathroom until later in the evening, and even then, for the amount of food I ate, I didn't nearly as much crap as I thought I would.

Overall, though, I find IFing to be easy to stick with. Its so damn nice to have fulfilling meals like the monster of a dinner I had above, and STILL be under my daily calorie intake.

 

[HarryHengst]

I think I am doing it backwards. I definitely want to get pretty big but my first goal is to get a flat ab showing stomach. I have lost weight with dieting it seems. I just eat really light meals..mostly anything chicken breast and vegetable related.

Should I be okay if I stay on my current path of dieting to lose body fat and then bulk up muscle wise?

To be honest, this sounds a bit pointless to me. If you want to get big, you have to eat above maintenance, and thats something you cant really combine with having a sixpack. Bulking means you'll get a higher % of bodyfat, besides muscles, and as a dude you can be pretty sure it goes to your stomach and thus hides your abs.

Then again, i never had visible abs, so maybe one of the guys here who do have them can tell what they do/did.

 

[kylej]

I think I am doing it backwards. I definitely want to get pretty big but my first goal is to get a flat ab showing stomach. I have lost weight with dieting it seems. I just eat really light meals..mostly anything chicken breast and vegetable related.

Should I be okay if I stay on my current path of dieting to lose body fat and then bulk up muscle wise?

Erm, you do realize bulking almost always requires adding fat to your body? Why lean down then bulk up? Bulk up first then cut.

There was a guy on the Bodybuilding forums who did an extreme version of this not long ago and it was mindblowing. He got up to around 380 while lifting hard, looked like a tub of shit, then cut for about a year iirc down to 250 and had the body of a Greek god. It was absolutely unbelievable. I'll find pictures and the thread when I get home from work.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Went absolute BEAST today, I don't know what I'm more proud of, my new PR, or doing the 60% BBB assistance with it.

Sit-Up:
15 reps (+7 pts)
15 reps (+7 pts)
15 reps (+7 pts)
15 reps (+7 pts)

Barbell Deadlift:
135 lb x 5 reps (+57 pts) - 1RM: 152 lb
225 lb x 5 reps (+106 pts) - 1RM: 253 lb
275 lb x 3 reps (+119 pts) - 1RM: 291 lb
310 lb x 5 reps (+187 pts) - 1RM: 349 lb
355 lb x 5 reps (+254 pts) - 1RM: 399 lb
405 lb x 8 reps (+400 pts) - 1RM: 503 lb
285 lb x 10 reps (+186 pts) - 1RM: 380 lb
285 lb x 10 reps (+186 pts) - 1RM: 380 lb
285 lb x 10 reps (+186 pts) - 1RM: 380 lb
285 lb x 10 reps (+186 pts) - 1RM: 380 lb
285 lb x 10 reps (+186 pts) - 1RM: 380 lb

Edit: I just saw the best ad I've ever seen on youtube. (it's long), but worth watching if you haven't seen it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7I7iasuIdw&feature=pyv

 

[diamondstar]

Erm, you do realize bulking almost always requires adding fat to your body? Why lean down then bulk up? Bulk up first then cut.

There was a guy on the Bodybuilding forums who did an extreme version of this not long ago and it was mindblowing. He got up to around 380 while lifting hard, looked like a tub of shit, then cut for about a year iirc down to 250 and had the body of a Greek god. It was absolutely unbelievable. I'll find pictures and the thread when I get home from work.

Yea obviously I don't know shit and that is why I am asking. I was just under the impression I would lose the body fat first and then head for the muscles. But again I don't know shit that was just an assumption.

And when I say big I don't mean bodybuilding big. I'm 6'2 and weigh around 190-195. I always wanted a body like Eric Moulds or Terrell Owens. So maybe your idea of big is different than mine.

 

[demon]

It's the ability to do more work and have it not adversely effect your body.

It's something you have to work up to, otherwise you risk overworking your body. It's also something you have to consider as you train if you want to progress. As you get "bigger/stronger" etc, you're going to increase work load.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Regarding one of the points in the article, is it a good idea to sort of repeat your workout the next day but with much lighter weight to help the recovery process? Is that something that's always a good idea or only in certain circumstances?

 

[parrotbeak]

It's the ability to do more work and have it not adversely effect your body.

It's something you have to work up to, otherwise you risk overworking your body. It's also something you have to consider as you train if you want to progress. As you get "bigger/stronger" etc, you're going to increase work load.

Going back to what Tate said on twitter the other day, I think it is in the So You Think You Can Bench videos that he suggested doing a lot of warmup reps with the bar up to 50% and said anything under 50% doesn't really count towards total volume.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Anybody remember my posts before about how I bought Jack3d and I was going try it the next day?

Well I just had my workout and HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!! That shit has an effect on me big time! Im still buzzing now and I finished my workout half hour ago.

My muscles are aching like hell, but I still kept going. I feel like im on drugs.(Well I guess I am lol)

My back is killing me after them deadlifts, but in such a gooooood way!!

 

[Petrie]

Yea obviously I don't know shit and that is why I am asking. I was just under the impression I would lose the body fat first and then head for the muscles. But again I don't know shit that was just an assumption.

And when I say big I don't mean bodybuilding big. I'm 6'2 and weigh around 190-195. I always wanted a body like Eric Moulds or Terrell Owens. So maybe your idea of big is different than mine.

Not really. Regardless of how big you want to be, if youre trying to gain mass, you should do so first, then cut to lose the fat. Otherwise you are just giving yourself more work and being horribly inefficient.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Going back to what Tate said on twitter the other day, I think it is in the So You Think You Can Bench videos that he suggested doing a lot of warmup reps with the bar up to 50% and said anything under 50% doesn't really count towards total volume.

Yeah, there's that too! Did you quote the wrong post btw? This seems like it's in reference to my light weight accessory movement post.

Thanks, that makes sense.

Regarding one of the points in the article, is it a good idea to sort of repeat your workout the next day but with much lighter weight to help the recovery process? Is that something that's always a good idea or only in certain circumstances?

He's mentioning that as a form of recovery. It gets blood into that area and speeds up the healing.

If you watch videos of those guys, they don't get into their "main sets" until way later. They do a lot of other shit before they even begin their main work.

As you grow as a lifter, you're inevitably going to spend more time in the gym and probably doing a lot more shit other than your "main lift" of the day.

His point in that article is knowing the necessity to work up and do more to improve, but knowing not to overdo it too quick. Also, the understanding of increasing work load to aid in recovery. Personally I sometimes split some of my other work and do it later in the day already, and I'm far from advanced.

 

[themadhatter444]

I've been doing mostly functional movement work for the past six months. In fact, I haven't been to my real gym in 4+ months because I'm doing plenty of damage with kettlebells, bosu balls, jump ropes, pull up bars, and dumbbells. I implore folks doing heavy strength work to take a week or two and do functional movement stuff to break it up a bit.

I like:
-Bear/Reptilian crawls
-Kettlebell swings/snatches/press/etc
-Goblet squats
-Sumo deadlifts
-Sprints
-Pushups on bosu ball
-Myotatic crunches
-Lunges***
-Sandbag carries

Paul Chek, while radical, has some phenomenal stuff. This is probably my favorite functional cardio circuit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNLRMVUNqbE

I've never been a fan of training first thing in the morning due to inherently high cortisol levels, but I'm going to bed early to make up for it. I went to the park this morning and did a very solid round of max effort sprints with some kettlebell work thrown in. I do 90% of my morning sessions with an empty stomach (which is debatable on its own).

Just sharing what works for me. Woot.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

I've been doing mostly functional movement work for the past six months. In fact, I haven't been to my real gym in 4+ months because I'm doing plenty of damage with kettlebells, bosu balls, jump ropes, pull up bars, and dumbbells. I implore folks doing heavy strength work to take a week or two and do functional movement stuff to break it up a bit.

No thanks.

Ya it was in reference to that, although without having read the article you just posted, it sounded to me at least tangentially related. Also too lazy to go back and find the original conversation.

Ah, gotcha. Yeah, I'm sure those two things do go hand in hand. I just wanted to be sure the conversation we were having, and I wasn't completely tracking.

 

[parrotbeak]

Yeah, there's that too! Did you quote the wrong post btw? This seems like it's in reference to my light weight accessory movement post.

Ya it was in reference to that, although without having read the article you just posted, it sounded to me at least tangentially related. Also too lazy to go back and find the original conversation.

 

[Mr.City]

Thanks for the info.. Another question. I really don't mind my current workout and think I am doing pretty good. Should I even consider trying this new routine? I mean I have been lifting since high school off and on, never this serious though. So am I really a beginner?

I know I will have to make my own decisions based on the information here and EVERYWHERE. That is one of the hardest things about actually training seriously.. There is so much information out there about what is right and what is wrong that it is easy to get overwhelmed.

And with the endurance. I am doing some long distance because I plan to do a mini-marathon in May so that is the only type of running I have been doing. So I switch to short and intense sessions even though I need distance.. Again... damn this shit is overwhelming.

If you haven't trained seriously, you'll most likely be a beginner, but I agree there is a lot of information out there. Generally, I find sources that come from most magazine and fitness websites to be bunkum. Sites like bodyrecompostion.com, 70s big, Mwod, startingstrength.com are good starting points.

Another problem is that no one reads books anymore. A lot of information out there has been piecemeal-ed together from various website and articles.

I've been doing mostly functional movement work for the past six months. In fact, I haven't been to my real gym in 4+ months because I'm doing plenty of damage with kettlebells, bosu balls, jump ropes, pull up bars, and dumbbells. I implore folks doing heavy strength work to take a week or two and do functional movement stuff to break it up a bit.

What's exactly is functional about these movements? Or rather, how do you define that term?

 

[Petrie]

Squats and deadlifts seem far more functional than most of that stuff.

 

[Chinner]

what do you guys think of scooby?

 

[Drealmcc0y]

what do you guys think of scooby?

A legend and my biggest motivation. Im going to be bodybuilding my whole life because of that guy.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

Anybody remember my posts before about how I bought Jack3d and I was going try it the next day?

Well I just had my workout and HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!! That shit has an effect on me big time! Im still buzzing now and I finished my workout half hour ago.

My muscles are aching like hell, but I still kept going. I feel like im on drugs.(Well I guess I am lol)

My back is killing me after them deadlifts, but in such a gooooood way!!

Im starting to calm down now. Good job because I gotta go to bed in 45 minutes.

 

[Ashhong]

Im starting to calm down now. Good job because I gotta go to bed in 45 minutes.

You might want to try Craze next time. Jack3d is known to give you more of that buzz/jittery feeling, even after a workout. Unless you want that feeling of course. Craze just gives you what Jack3d does, without the effects after the workout.

 

[Drealmcc0y]

You might want to try Craze next time. Jack3d is known to give you more of that buzz/jittery feeling, even after a workout. Unless you want that feeling of course. Craze just gives you what Jack3d does, without the effects after the workout.

Dude i want this feeling every fucking day. Its a shame it will make your heart explode if I do that.

Im trying to be more socially active you know, and mannnn I felt so fucking talkative during the gym and the half hour afterwards it was awesome.

 

[FallingEdge]

To be honest, this sounds a bit pointless to me. If you want to get big, you have to eat above maintenance, and thats something you cant really combine with having a sixpack. Bulking means you'll get a higher % of bodyfat, besides muscles, and as a dude you can be pretty sure it goes to your stomach and thus hides your abs.

Then again, i never had visible abs, so maybe one of the guys here who do have them can tell what they do/did.

To be fair, I have heard it both ways. But it really depends on your current physique. If you are 6'2 and weight 145, it doesn't make sense to lean out because what muscle do you have to show off? On the other end, if you are 6'2 and weight 300, what is the point of bulking? Once you have reached a good base to work off of, then you can decide what you want to do from there.

 

[Ashhong]

Dude i want this feeling every fucking day. Its a shame it will make your heart explode if I do that.

Im trying to be more socially active you know, and mannnn I felt so fucking talkative during the gym and the half hour afterwards it was awesome.

Lol, that works too.

 

[diamondstar]

Not really. Regardless of how big you want to be, if youre trying to gain mass, you should do so first, then cut to lose the fat. Otherwise you are just giving yourself more work and being horribly inefficient.

Okay man good advice, thanks!

Looks like I will have to turn this training on its head and start over.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

Someone posted a dip/pull up belt a while ago, I think it rolled up nicely and I think it was blue.

Anyone got a link or a name?

 

[Mully]

After an off day I normally switch up the time I go to the gym for the following three days to see when I get my best lifts. According to my log, I have much more energy in the morning than I do late at night. Anyone else see similar results?

 

[grumble]

There are options for gaining weight very slowly which will minimize fat gain, but it's a painful process. You have to be anal about your diet, you will constantly have brutal workouts due to the slim caloric surplus and it STILL might not work very well.

 

[Bearded Dudebro]

So would this be why I may be close to plateu'ing, just not eating enough to support what I'm doing?

There are options for gaining weight very slowly which will minimize fat gain, but it's a painful process. You have to be anal about your diet, you will constantly have brutal workouts due to the slim caloric surplus and it STILL might not work very well.

 

[demon]

Is there an ideal time to add creatine to your regimen? I was thinking about adding it at some point but I wanted to wait a while after starting my SL program to better gauge what effect it has on me.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Just saw this on facebook.

That's a fucking smith machine, right? It looks a little odd.