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Football Thread 2013/14 |OT4| Everybody Hates Wenger renewed for 17th season

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omgkitty

Member
A refresh would do us the world of good. We have enough cash and a strong enough "foundation squad" for a new manager to come in, add to the squad, implement a system and get us up and running in line with their new vision without too much hassle. All of the deadwood got cleared out this summer so a new manager would have a much easier job than if he was to have joined 12 months ago or so.

Honestly, I think this will be Wenger's last year. A lot of things are pointing towards it at the moment.

I really think someone like Klopp would fit in at Arsenal well. He plays attractive football and has a reliance on bringing in good, young players. He reminds of a young Arsene who isn't afraid to splash the cash, but he doesn't go crazy like other clubs. He looked at what Dortmund needed this summer and he spent what he needed. He also has the love of his players and is respected.

Don't think we would get him though, and not because he wouldn't come. Honestly think it would be because we wouldn't go after him. I could see Arsene moving up to a backroom position and picking someone like Stajkovic that he could mould and control. But yeah even though people have been calling for Wenger's head for years, when he leaves it will be Defcon 1 for at least a season or two.

On another note, every time we get shit for how much we bid on players, I think of this:

tumblr_lq55t6IXLl1qfjko2o1_r1_500.gif


Someone put Arsene's head on him.
 

Salvadora

Member
What about hiring a director of football and stripping Wenger of the power to buy players??
A director of football would be an ideal solution to the current player recruitment problems, but it isn't that simple to implement. You would be neutering Wenger. It isn't easy to direct the blame either.

Dick Law is obviously a Woodward-esque figure, and has been for many years. Ivan Gazidis is the Darth Vader to Kroenke's Emperor.
 

Showaddy

Member
Assou-Ekotto is definitely on his way out from Spurs. Not sure what sort of bust up he's had with AVB but he's been barred from even training apparently.
 

Mikro

Neo Member
A director of football would be an ideal solution to the current player recruitment problems, but it isn't that simple to implement. You would be neutering Wenger. It isn't easy to direct the blame either.

Dick Law is obviously a Woodward-esque figure, and has been for many years. Ivan Gazidis is the Darth Vader to Kroenke's Emperor.

See I think this Gazidis' criticism was exactly what he was fed up with and said those comment's early on in the summer to show who is in charge - he doesn't have the power to dictate transfers over Wenger. He said we can compete for star players with big fees and big wages but said 'what excites me and you does not necessarily excite Arsene'.

Also I think its been reported Dick Law works to a brief which comes directly from Wenger.

I think Kroenke has essentially delegated the club to Wenger running the football side and Gazidis the business side. But Wenger's valuation of players is starting to interfere.
 

Showaddy

Member
AVB probably got justifiably sick of his "LOL I DUN CARE ABOUT TINGS" act.

Yeah the fans love him but he's far to open with his 'couldn't give a fuck' attitude which is bound to wind up AVB. Probably why he's not even allowed to train with the kids either...

Danny Rose's comments about Redknapp never giving him a game despite a certain player repeatedly missing training and getting picked regardless are pretty telling as well.
 

Wilbur

Banned
I'm aware its 2 in the morning so hopefully people will see this and talk about it in the morning. Daily Mail article about English players. It's odd because I don't consider myself a patriot in the slightest and my interest in the national side dwindles every day, but it honestly gets to me that our quality isn't good enough and hardly any of our sides play English/British players any more. Apologies for the length so just skip if you're not interested.

I'd genuinely be up for something akin to the 6+5 rule that Turkey have brought in, but maybe squad wide. Maybe 6 of your 18 players, starting and subs, have to be British, homegrown, whatever. It's probably easier that I support a side that could feasibly put out a competitive British side, but as much progress as Spurs have made - and it is brilliant - , they're losing a fucking huge amount of British players and that isn't good for the Premier League. Can't be solved easily, there has to be a change at the top. But I hope we bring in a rule somewhere down the line and revolutionise things. I understand the criticisms about EPPP as well though.

for those interested, our homegrown side could be:

Amos; Smalling, Jones, Ferdinand, Evans; Zaha, Carrick, Cleverley, Young; Welbeck, Rooney

Still pretty competitive, and I understand that we'll get the pick of the English talent being a top side, but even with our first team we're likely to play four or five British players at any one time. Manchester City's strongest side has one Englishman. That just isn't great for one of the league's most visible clubs.

Nowhere has the summer squeeze on English footballers been more pronounced than at Tottenham. It has been an impressive reaction by Daniel Levy, Franco Baldini and Andre Villas-Boas to the prospect of losing Gareth Bale. With £86million at their disposal, they have identified targets swiftly and closed deals with far more aplomb than Arsenal, who are suddenly the North London club with a British core. This spree has transformed the complexion of Spurs, who were for many years a prime example of a big club investing in young British talent.

When the dust settles, they could have eight signings from eight countries and, when Tottenham reconvene after the international break, Villas-Boas could field a very good team without a Brit in sight: Lloris, Kaboul, Chichires, Vertonghen, Coentrao, Paulinho, Capoue, Lamela, Eriksen, Chadli and Soldado.

But where does this leave Jermain Defoe, Kyle Walker, Michael Dawson, Aaron Lennon, Danny Rose, Kyle Naughton and Hodgson’s winger of the month Andros Townsend? Some will undoubtedly feature as Villas-Boas has to include seven homegrown players in his 25-man squad. Others will be left to consider the next stage of their careers. Tottenham boast a crop of young players considered to be among the best in the country and yet Tom Carroll was the only one selected to start Thursday night’s Europa League play-off, with Spurs already five-up. Carroll, 21, is precisely the kind of technical footballer England must produce and yet he needs time to develop before he can expect to force his way past Paulinho, Capoue, Sandro, Mousa Dembele, Gylfi Sigurdsson, etc. He will probably go out on loan.

Fulham have been the Premier League Academy champions for the past two years and have a team jammed with foreign players. Manchester United, who supply more than a quarter of the England squad named this week, are one of the few who give extended opportunities to English youngsters. Southampton are another and yet no sooner is Rickie Lambert an England debut goal hero than he is contending with the arrival of Dani Osvaldo from Roma. Saints have also splurged £12.5m on Victor Wanyama and £12m on Gaston Ramirez.

New TV cash has armed clubs in the depths of the Premier League with funds to tempt them to buy abroad. Paolo Di Canio has signed 10 players, nine from overseas plus a teenager from Altrincham, as Sunderland copy neighbours Newcastle, who started against West Ham last Saturday without any England-qualified players. Michael Laudrup included more Spaniards in his Swansea team at Spurs on Sunday than half-a-dozen teams in La Liga. Leon Britton has been displaced in midfield by new signing Jose Canas.

England boss Hodgson doesn’t seem to know whether to make a racket about this or not. When his squad congregate at St George’s Park on Monday, you can bet he will purr that these shores are awash with talent. Most probably, he will refer to the 10 English players who started in the game between Manchester United and Chelsea on Monday and yet he knows his options are dwindling.

Gary Neville and Gareth Southgate have recently chipped in on the subject but the FA must provide stronger leadership on the issue. Surely it is something new chairman Greg Dyke will tackle? Warning signs have been there for more than a decade but England’s development teams still drift along under the non-confrontational leadership of Sir Trevor Brooking and Ray Clemence. Stuart Pearce was the scapegoat for a dismal summer, but what else has changed? The signs are not encouraging. England internationals such as Huddlestone, Caulker, Livermore, Parker, Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing have been forced out to find more playing time. Darren Bent has sought a fresh start at Fulham. Gareth Barry looks set to follow Scott Sinclair out of Manchester City, while chances for Jack Rodwell and James Milner will be hit by the signings of Fernandinho, Stevan Jovetic and Jesus Navas.

A few homegrown players have defied gravity. Gareth Bale cannot go much higher than Real Madrid but then you are looking at Dwight Gayle (Peterborough to Crystal Palace) and Nathan Redmond (Birmingham to Norwich). Gary Hooper has traded the Champions League football and another SPL cakewalk with Celtic for Norwich and the knock-on effect is that Grant Holt is squeezed from the Premier League to Wigan.

Being English can be a handicap. Everton released Leighton Baines as a teenager and are now reluctant for him to better himself at Manchester United, despite an offer which values him and Marouane Fellaini at £28m.

Turkey have just introduced a ‘6 plus 5’ rule to protect their players. In their Super League, teams must select six homegrown players. Such a rule is more difficult to enforce in the EU. The Premier League is proudly free-market and the seven homegrown players in each 25-man squad is about as restrictive as they are likely to get.

Much hope is pinned on Ged Roddy’s EPPP, a youth development plan hatched with great fanfare, based upon pairing the best young players and the best coaches and increasing time on the training ground. It has been criticised for its impact on smaller clubs, who rely upon youth development to survive, but Roddy is confident it will produce better technical footballers.

A large part of the problem is the gap from under-18s to the first team. This is where many young players hit a wall if they are not ready to make the leap to the Premier League and only the exceptional few are ready. Loaning out can work but there are risks. Townsend was out on loan at nine clubs before he made his full Premier League debut for Spurs on Sunday, at the age of 22. Now he is in the England squad. Was the loan system the best way to fulfil his potential? Young players learn the realities of winning and losing but over-exposure to low-grade football can stunt the technical qualities needed at an elite level.

The technical gulf opening up between the Premier League and the Championship is driving football into two codes: one more rugged and physical, based on traditional British qualities, and a refined Euro football, where the ball zips around and is never mis-controlled by the talented feet of many nations.

As for the Champions League, that is another step beyond and a competition where only one Englishman (Hooper) scored more than once last season.

English club culture will never advocate the inclusion of reserve teams in the lower leagues, as found in Europe, so the Under 21 league, launched last year with limited success, has to be more vibrant and testing.

Financial Fair Play should balance overseas spending with youth development but there has been no sign of this and Arsene Wenger is still tearing his hair out as he is implored to buy star players.

The first step most clubs have taken has been to find more creative ways of generating income, with exhibition games abroad and more sophisticated sponsorship schemes, including selling space on training kit. Prices for these deals are driven up by a cosmopolitan squad with commercial appeal in all corners of the world. English football is trapped in this vicious circle.

The free market does not appear close to finding its equilibrium but something has to be done to ensure this country produces its own footballers capable of breaking into a vibrant Premier League.

qII2Q5d.jpg
 

deGod

Member
I'm aware its 2 in the morning so hopefully people will see this and talk about it in the morning. Daily Mail article about English players.
qII2Q5d.jpg

I thought they had a rule that you need x amount of home grown players in your team even if they don't play?
 

Wilbur

Banned
I thought they had a rule that you need x amount of home grown players in your team even if they don't play?

7 out of the 25 you register in your squad have to be homegrown, excluding under-21 players which don't have to be registered. But then you can leave all 7 out of every match day squad if you want to, they just need to be registered (which also makes a mockery of stupid fines when managers rotate their side so they take the beating at United away and rest their players for easier games at home)
 

Salazar

Member
Spurs were putting it about that they rated Carroll a good chance of being a first teamer next season.

And they keep buying midfielders to get in his way.
 
I'd love to see more homegrown talent - yet there's something nice about seeing the league so recognised globally.

I think clubs should try and use more English/British players though.

Saying that, what is stopping homegrown players from moving abroad to gain experience at European clubs? There are so few playing abroad, and it really strikes me as a missed opportunity for young professionals to gain a foothold in more varied environments. Other nations do it? Surely our youth aren't that far behind that they can't either?

Ultimately though, I don't think it's really having a detriment on our national team - perhaps the problem lies further down at grassroots. If the talent was there, then I don't see why it wouldn't come through on home turf.
 

Wilbur

Banned
Spurs were putting it about that they rated Carroll a good chance of being a first teamer next season.

And they keep buying midfielders to get in his way.

He looked really good tonight. I'm not exactly sure what the plan is there, Eriksen coming in has surprised me because it implies Sigurdsson is going to struggle even further for game time.

Imperative someone like Carroll is getting played at the moment though, he looked very good tonight and its unlikely he'll even get into rotated sides the way the Spurs midfield is stacking up at the moment.
 

Darth Sonik

we need more FPS games
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Wenger's contract up at the end of the season. This is a huge error as far as I'm concerned.

How many players would join a club, where the manager is not signed up for the project they are supposed to take part in?

Does anyone know what will happen next summer? Is he moving on? Is he staying? Is he retiring?

This situation is certainly not helping their recruiting efforts.
 

Showaddy

Member
Spurs were putting it about that they rated Carroll a good chance of being a first teamer next season.

And they keep buying midfielders to get in his way.

Carroll's pretty unique for a young English player in that his game is based entirely around passing and is very similar to Modric. The problem is though he lacks Modric's agility but is still a small player so the Premier League is a difficult place for him.

Apparently Watford are interested in on loan this season but AVB may want to keep him for the Europa.
 

Wilbur

Banned
I'd love to see more homegrown talent - yet there's something nice about seeing the league being recognised so globally.

I think clubs should try and use English/British players more though.

Saying that, what is stopping homegrown players from moving abroad to gain experience at European clubs? There are so few playing abroad, that it really strikes me as a missed opportunity for young professionals to gain a foothold in more varied environments.

I suppose its a mix of a few things, one being the fact that our players seem so averse to leaving the country and another being that they're just not good enough. An average Spanish player is going to be technically better than an average English player. And then those that aren't pulling up trees here but loiter at clubs, someone like Barry, of course he's probably better than the alternative Sassuolo have in his position. But he'll consider himself above any team that could do with him, and his level is below teams he'd consider going to.

At least Bale's going abroad. Rooney showed no desire to when a transfer was mooted, and I understand he has a young family and a wife to think about as well, but when so many players are coming here - and I agree with you that its a fantastic advert for the sport and believe me I absolutely love the Premier League - its just a tad fucking caveman to think none of our players reciprocate.

Someone like McEachran isn't even getting bench time in a side that looks pretty weak midfield wise, and it doesn't look like he's going out on loan either. Has he particularly impressed while out on loan? No, not really. But then, being moved to different clubs every half year does have its disadvantages.

Hope we give Zaha and Smalling particularly some game time this year, not worried about Welbeck and Jones because they'll get it.
 
I suppose its a mix of a few things, one being the fact that our players seem so averse to leaving the country and another being that they're just not good enough. An average Spanish player is going to be technically better than an average English player. And then those that aren't pulling up trees here but loiter at clubs, someone like Barry, of course he's probably better than the alternative Sassuolo have in his position. But he'll consider himself above any team that could do with him, and his level is below teams he'd consider going to.

At least Bale's going abroad. Rooney showed no desire to when a transfer was mooted, and I understand he has a young family and a wife to think about as well, but when so many players are coming here - and I agree with you that its a fantastic advert for the sport and believe me I absolutely love the Premier League - its just a tad fucking caveman to think none of our players reciprocate.

Someone like McEachran isn't even getting bench time in a side that looks pretty weak midfield wise, and it doesn't look like he's going out on loan either. Has he particularly impressed while out on loan? No, not really. But then, being moved to different clubs every half year does have its disadvantages.

Hope we give Zaha and Smalling particularly some game time this year, not worried about Welbeck and Jones because they'll get it.

I think you answered your own question. The British players aren't good enough right now. You yourself make fun of City's British players being shit.

Once the talent becomes better, it will naturally solve itself.
 

Wilbur

Banned
I think you answered your own question. The British players aren't good enough right now. You yourself make fun of City's British players being shit.

Once the talent becomes better, it will naturally solve itself.

Talent isn't going to become better while we have no reason to make it better. The Premier League makes fucking oodles of money, if a rule came in that forced teams to have a minimum amount of British players, more money would be spent on those British players being good enough to fill the teams up.
 

Dibbz

Member
Talent isn't going to become better while we have no reason to make it better. The Premier League makes fucking oodles of money, if a rule came in that forced teams to have a minimum amount of British players, more money would be spent on those British players being good enough to fill the teams up.

I had a kinda big post lined up but you know what it could probably be condensed into the following.

If more teams strive to be more than a club, we might get somewhere.
 

Yen

Member
My solution to the English problem: split the Football League into North and South, allow B teams.

4 leagues of 20 teams: The English Supreme League North and South, and English Second League North and South
Playoffs to get into the PL.
Rodolfo leads the men to infinite titles.

No idea why I'm splitting them geographically, but who cares about the details.
 

Showaddy

Member
Just watch the ending of the Spurs game that I'd recorded, Defoe getting booked for diving in the 90th minute when Spurs were 8-0 up on aggregate is hilarious.
 

Dibbz

Member
My solution to the English problem: split the Football League into North and South, allow B teams.

4 leagues of 20 teams: The English Supreme League North and South, and English Second League North and South
Playoffs to get into the PL.
Rodolfo leads the men to infinite titles.

No idea why I'm splitting them geographically, but who cares about the details.

Should split it East and West, so Man City get to play in Wales.
 

subtles

Member
There are several reason England finds itself in this predicament today, many of which I am perhaps oblivious to as I am not an Englishmen. However I have had the opportunity of watching our academy grow from the shambles it once was to the strong one it is today. I know many of you here have read the document by the Bundesliga explaining how they revolutionized the academy system that in turn produced so many young talents in Germany today so I won't be getting into that. Now if you would bear with me;

For one, England lacks qualified coaches:

2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588. (2010)

These are staggering numbers. How many unqualified coaches are teaching the younger players? Why do they insist on recruiting the tall, strong lads rather than the technical ones?

Another issue is the limit placed on clubs with the number of hours they can coach and the geographical proximity they can recruit from. The hours a qualified coach can work with the youngsters can make a big difference. I leave you with this excerpt on Borrell, the biggest influence on our academy today.

During his first coaching spell at local side Cornella, where he oversaw the development of children aged six to nine, Rodolfo set his heart on coaching at Barcelona and one day he decided to do something that would set the ball rolling on ensuring he got his dream move to La Masia.

“I organised a meeting with the parents and explained to them that I was an ambitious coach that wanted to represent Barcelona,” Rodolfo told the Official LFC Weekly Magazine. “They looked at me like I was crazy. “I said to achieve that, this team needed to be magnificent. With the help of parents in terms of extra training, we could achieve anything. Rather than doing two days, we would do four days while also arranging extra activities like swimming.” Within months Rodolfo’s team was putting 10 goals a time past helpless opposition, and his youngsters had become the talk of the town.

In January 1994 Barcelona scouts came to see for themselves just what all the fuss was about. “When I saw the scouts, I realised this was everything I had been working for,” he said. “As always we were magnificent and by half-time we had a healthy lead. And at half-time a guy from Barcelona told me how impressed they were. “They told me they wanted my Cornella to play them in a trial match for everybody. So we went there a few days later and beat them 5-0. A little Cornella team beat Barcelona with Barcelona not really crossing the halfway line.” A display of power, poise and possession football ensured Rodolfo was offered the job at Barcelona and his talent shone through as he made a swift ascent through the youth coaching ranks.

However, one factor would prove a constant hindrance to his progress there. “I spent one season coaching at the Barcelona school, one season with the U11s, two years with the U12s, four seasons in the U14s and three seasons with the U-16s and two with the U-17s,” said Rodolfo. “But the truth is, unless you are a famous player, it is very difficult to progress as a coach beyond that level. “When I became the first person who wasn’t a famous former player to break the line of the 16s and become U17s coach — that was a big thing at the club.” During his time at Barcelona, Rodolfo coached some of the finest payers in world football. The backbone of his all-conquering U14 squad from 2000-01 comprised of Gerard Pique, Cesc Fabregas and Lionel Messi.

England have been fortunate enough that despite the hierarchical issues persistent in it's FA clubs continue to produce talents like Wilshere and Sturridge among others. As long as that continues and they manage to scrape by every major tournament they may be reluctant to change. How many feathers would have to be ruffled to truly bring about positive change in the FA?

The fact Hodgson symbolizes English football right now is the greatest indicator that the FA has no clear vision of the way they want the team to play. Germany has become synonymous with the 4-2-3-1 with any young player being able to play in the national team straight away. A clear, coherent strategy.

I leave you with this, in South America many players learn their trade off the streets. What happen to the English equivalent?
 
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