Radical_3d
Member
i had a PCIe SSD on PC before many of you and I didn't had 2 seconds loading screens. Don't try to gaslight a forum like this about how the PS5 SSD is the same.
Former PlayStation exec: Sony can’t keep boosting graphics power in new consoles after tech plateau, but PS5 has already improved nearly every game.
- Thread starter Lunatic_Gamer
- Start date
- Opinion News Hardware
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
RafterXL
Member
This is pure cope. Consoles games are still well behind PC games in both IQ and framerate, and to catch up will require graphics power. If there is a "tech plateau" Sony sure as hell hasn't hit it yet. Frankly, I think all of this stuff with power saving and handhelds and now comments like this are just easing people into the fact that the PS6 is going to be massive letdown for people looking for high performance, high IQ gaming.
RetroGamingUK
Member
He's right
If PS6 is capable of running Gran Turismo 8 with path tracing making it basically photorealistic (F1 on PC is already there), how do they sell PS7 with Gran Turismo 10?
If Naughty Dog or Koijima Productions produce an adventure game that looks photorealistic thanks to path tracing, again how do they sell PS7 to the masses.
TV sizes and resolutions can't keep growing, most people don't care about frame rates above 60fps.
Do we end up with tech progress no longer offering benefits to consumers? Do Sony just stick with PS6 for decades?
If PS6 is capable of running Gran Turismo 8 with path tracing making it basically photorealistic (F1 on PC is already there), how do they sell PS7 with Gran Turismo 10?
If Naughty Dog or Koijima Productions produce an adventure game that looks photorealistic thanks to path tracing, again how do they sell PS7 to the masses.
TV sizes and resolutions can't keep growing, most people don't care about frame rates above 60fps.
Do we end up with tech progress no longer offering benefits to consumers? Do Sony just stick with PS6 for decades?
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Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
PS6 will no doubt be taking the good aspects of PS5, improving them marginally, but the focus seems to be on efficiency, probably making devices for the masses to ensure they are the default F2P box with easy access to their store and media apps without having to wait 2 hours for driver updates, app updates etc. before being able to play.
Felessan
Member
Next gen only consoles centric games (Stellar Blade, Doom) loads in seconds. PC centric games (Wukong) - 20-30secs. Past gen - same as PC.
It's past gen and PC engines support what holding SSD to truly shine as both consoles have advanced IO tech compared to "SSD (SATA) is recommended" means HDD is still supported by game.
SplunkyMunkey
Member
Of course u need a beefy gpu at some point. Can't have a console constantly with a weak ass gpu. Expecially if u wanna do path tracing or RT and if you wanna do lots a physics that normally requires a good gpu to do it for the calculations otherwise sony might as well do a nintendo
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
It's an interesting statement and easy to say but I've always said about this generation and potentially even a little bit of next, it will be a generation of immediacy and things coming around quicker. And it's been proven to be true when PS5 loads games near instantly and is a staffy premier experience. The software is a different subject but in terms of the hardware and where we're at with advancements, I think we are about to hit a bigger and better boost next generation on top of those efficiencies continuing.
I think people lose focus on what is happening and visuals are already pretty good alongside image quality and those things can always continue to be improved especially technologies like AI upscaling. But the immediacy of games, especially with PS5 has shown, has been probably one of the best achievements of the generation. Not even PC could really touch that yet and is really being optimized the way PlayStation 5 has been.
If you really think about it, we are usually the ones finding over and puffing our chest out on the PC side. And we still do have the performance advantage, but we have to spend quite a bit of money to achieve that. When you have some technology or feature that even the PC is an executing as well, that is a pretty square feat.
I think people lose focus on what is happening and visuals are already pretty good alongside image quality and those things can always continue to be improved especially technologies like AI upscaling. But the immediacy of games, especially with PS5 has shown, has been probably one of the best achievements of the generation. Not even PC could really touch that yet and is really being optimized the way PlayStation 5 has been.
If you really think about it, we are usually the ones finding over and puffing our chest out on the PC side. And we still do have the performance advantage, but we have to spend quite a bit of money to achieve that. When you have some technology or feature that even the PC is an executing as well, that is a pretty square feat.
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Kerotan
Member
In terms of actual graphics the improvements can come in the form of image quality. Higher resolution and frames. Render in details at a greater deaw distance. Increase the amount of NPC's, effects etc going on screen at once.
Asset's are already built to such a high quality and look so realistic they are close to the limit already. This happened during the PS4 gen with games like TLOUP2, GOW etc. Now it's time to guarantee with can see these assets in a smooth experience. That's what I want from my next gen console and that's what the PS5 provided.
I will admit though the SSD was a huge improvement.
Asset's are already built to such a high quality and look so realistic they are close to the limit already. This happened during the PS4 gen with games like TLOUP2, GOW etc. Now it's time to guarantee with can see these assets in a smooth experience. That's what I want from my next gen console and that's what the PS5 provided.
I will admit though the SSD was a huge improvement.
Agreed that it will take a sunglasses type device before it goes mainstream, but I think that will come with a direction change to make them pure internet streaming devices rather than a mini-console/PC.
midnightAI
Member
not until we have full path tracing with an almost unlimited number of polygons (Nanite is getting there and we may remove polygons completely at some point) at 4K (minimum) all at a minimum of 60fps (120fps or even higher if we are talking VR), then, no, we aren't there yet, not by a long shot but I do get his point to a degree, although we havent really seen much in the way of raytracing on the PS5 really so thats why he cant tell that easily, but PS6 could be a different beast.
Games for the most part still look like games, the ultimate end goal is to have something that you cannot separate game from film or even real life (dangerous, I know) but we are a very long way from that and thats just talking about graphics, we have a VERY long way to go when we are talking about realistic physics in games or extremely realistic NPC's (AI will help a lot with those)
Games for the most part still look like games, the ultimate end goal is to have something that you cannot separate game from film or even real life (dangerous, I know) but we are a very long way from that and thats just talking about graphics, we have a VERY long way to go when we are talking about realistic physics in games or extremely realistic NPC's (AI will help a lot with those)
All we need is 1080p with AI upscaling, games scaled back so they can get released faster, whatever needed to keep passionate devs in jobs, clear out the wasters who want to do DEI shite and post TikTok videos of a day in the life while holding a handbag and a coffee.
Support hard working teams and give them whatever they need.
We don't need sixty hour games with months spent on an animation that happens once n a game.
Make games fun again.
Support hard working teams and give them whatever they need.
We don't need sixty hour games with months spent on an animation that happens once n a game.
Make games fun again.
RetroGamingUK
Member
Not sure I follow, can you give examples of this?
vaibhavpisal
Member
Damage control for that portable is beginning.
They don't want PR to be similar to Series S, even if actual situation is worse.
They don't want PR to be similar to Series S, even if actual situation is worse.
E-Cat
Member
That movie had tactile/force-feedback and traversing solved, but in the real world we don't even see a path to that currently. Without that, VR remains a glorified View-Master -- which has its uses to be sure, but ehh.
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LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
Immediacy? Getting into games quicker and assets loading. It's not some exclusive thing but PS5 is one of the few examples of some of those things being implemented. It's not exclusive to them but they put the HW behind the words they said.
I haven't experienced that consistently on PC.
PurePlatinum
Member
Shu is right.
The real limiting factor isn't really the tech, but the # of developers who can afford to take full advantage of said tech, which shrinks exponentially every generation. GTAVI looks leaps and bounds better than anything else out there, but R* is the only developer with enough money to be able to do that.
IMO shooting for more interesting art-styles and then utilizing things like SSD or 3D audio to truly improve the experience is the right way forward...one of the games this generation that I felt really utilized the new tech best was something like Returnal, or Sifu. Not graphically powerhouse games, but used all the new-tech in harmony that was additive.
The real limiting factor isn't really the tech, but the # of developers who can afford to take full advantage of said tech, which shrinks exponentially every generation. GTAVI looks leaps and bounds better than anything else out there, but R* is the only developer with enough money to be able to do that.
IMO shooting for more interesting art-styles and then utilizing things like SSD or 3D audio to truly improve the experience is the right way forward...one of the games this generation that I felt really utilized the new tech best was something like Returnal, or Sifu. Not graphically powerhouse games, but used all the new-tech in harmony that was additive.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Not that long ago consoles were at 30fps and barely stable. Sometimes going down to like 26 or less (TLOU original release, i'm looking at you)...now most games release with 60fps modes and with VRR we can reach way above that as well. PS4 managed to get at least stable framerates and this gen 60fps is the norm.
Yes consoles are behind and will always be in some ways, but since tech isn't nearly evolving as fast as it used to, consoles and PCs have never been this "close". At least consoles are catching up in some ways and we should all be happy about it.
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unlurkified
Member
These 50/60-something execs are a bit out of touch though I'd say. We have a long ways to go before RT features are optimized on console and when it happens it'll be a huge jump.
midnightAI
Member
Well, no, if they are 800-900 then sales will tumble and people will just stick with the current gen. They may get away with something like 600-650 but any more than that and its dead in the water (ideally it will need to be in the 500-600 range for it to sell like PS4/PS5)
You know how that old song goes – you say 120fps, I say 60fps / you say ray tracing, I say I'm so bored, I just fell asleep / let's call the whole thing off! Something like that. That's what it might as well be now that multiple industry leaders, including former PlayStation Indies head Shuhei Yoshida, agree that gaming technology has hit a big brick wall.
"Graphics [have] almost hit the level that even I cannot tell the difference between some of the [graphical capabilities] like ray traced or not ray traced, unless it's side by side, or higher frame rate," Yoshida says during a recent episode of Skill Up's Friends Per Second podcast.
Not long ago, former Sony CEO Shawn Layden expressed a similar sentiment, wondering, "How many of us can really tell the difference between 90 frames per second and 120 frames per second?" Even PlayStation design consultant Mark Cerny – who's worked with Sony through multiple console cycles and helped create the PS4 and PS5 – feels like "the current approach" to ray tracing and lighting "has reached its limit."
Continuing this point, Yoshida says about PlayStation that, "clearly they just cannot do the same thing they have been doing, [which] is increasing the graphics power and providing high-end experiences."
With the superheroic power of the PS5, though, that may not be the worst thing ever. Yoshida explains: "I think PS5 is amazing system in terms of quality of experience. I think the adoption of SSD was like an almost miracle."
"I think PS5 and SSD has made almost every game a better game," he concludes.
Source:
Ex PlayStation exec says Sony can't keep "increasing the graphics power" with new consoles after tech plateau, but PS5 has already "made almost every game a better game"
Shuhei Yoshida says he "cannot tell the difference" between new techwww.gamesradar.com
midnightAI
Member
We are a LONG LONG way from photorealistic, until then it will be improvements to ray/path tracing, improvements in AI hardware and optimisations and your usual spec bumps across the board. PS6 certainly wont be that big an improvement, I guess by PS10 we may be getting there in regards to proper photorealism unless there is a huge breakthrough in the meantime (which may happen with AI advancements).
RetroGamingUK
Member
Lorianus
Member
Raindrops on the car not moving while driving give the whole illusion away, it's the little things, also it's always rainy footage that looks the best, do the same in a overcast weather without smearing the whole picture in reflections and it suddenly looks a whole console generation older.
midnightAI
Member
For certain types of game even Xbox and PS5 looks close enough (but still not photo real, at all), but what about open world games? for us to be at the very peak of graphics that has to be across the board no matter the genre. You need to be able to push near infinite polys, path traced and extremely high framerates.
Take Ready Player One for example, we are nowhere close to anything like that in a game and even that is far from realistic looking (deliberate for the most part, but even pre-rendered CGI has its flaws and improvements to be made)
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RetroGamingUK
Member
Is there enough market demand for that to warrant that though?
CentralScrutinizer
Member
I will say that gamers prove time and time again that games that look "good enough" can be massive successes. Roblox, minecraft, fortnite, indie darlings, Nintendo games, etc etc,.
The trends are clear. Chasing power and upping dev budgets in conjunction with that power race is counterproductive to the types of games companies should be making to have massive breakout successes.
The trends are clear. Chasing power and upping dev budgets in conjunction with that power race is counterproductive to the types of games companies should be making to have massive breakout successes.
TheRedRiders
Member
Agreed, the narrative surrounding consoles will always be "but it doesn't have X,Y,X feature like PC's do", but as you've said the gap between the two has been the closest it ever has, and it's it's only going to get smaller with next-gen, especially now that the PS6 is likely targeting path tracing based on Cerny and Jack's comments in the recent video.
midnightAI
Member
Why wouldnt there be?
Graphics have always pushed realism and will continue to do so, but our idea of realism changes over time, what we see as realistic now will be nothing like it in 20-30 years time (although diminishing returns is a thing). I remember playing Heavy Rain and thinking how unbelievably realistic everything looked..... until I played it again recently, and, well, it's just not that good anymore. One of the most impressive things I have seen realtime is The Dark Sorcerer from Quantic Dream in 2013, but that was a VERY enclosed demo with very specific camera angles and lighting to get the very best out of it and there are games today that are as good as if not better than that in game....
(the tech from The Dark Sorcerer made it into Detroit)
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Rivdoric
Member
I didn't know IRL clarity was upscaled and my eyes created 3 fake frames for every frame it processed.
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Felessan
Member
Your eyes (eye-brain link) basically works like mpeg compression - there is a lot both dlss and framegen happening in this link
Optical nerve bandwidth is about 1mbit/s (very low) and nature compensate it cleverly
(some of ML stuff was actually copied from real neural networks)
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Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Those raindrops don't look impressive in any way and it kind of distracted me of everything else actually. Even Driveclub...a PS4 exclusive game had better rain effects on your screen ovr a decade ago.
PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
So you are waiting for great VR porn...pervert
RafterXL
Member
And yet consoles still have plenty of room to catch up. The idea that they have plateaued is ridiculous and the fact they are pushing this less power usage, less graphical/performance enhancement for next gen isn't something to be excited about. It honestly feels like they are trying to ease people into the fact that the PS6 will be a marginal upgrade at best and they want people to manage their expectations.
IllegalLemon
Member
They invested a long time in R&D for the PS5 and its bigger brother the Pro and advertised these two with a focus on 3 distinct features
•IO
•3D Audio
•AI(on Pro)
Take those hardware features and what you've learned while programming for them and make them better and more refined. Surely they can take that IO block and further improve on it or that 300 TOPS ML block and 3D Audio and stack more customisations to them, can't they? That alone would be an improvement on top of what that RDNA 5 reference design can offer them, plus some of their own customisations on top of the silicon. Sony's main focus is various types of physical hardware after all and they've learned a lot designing both the regular and pro ps5's.
•IO
•3D Audio
•AI(on Pro)
Take those hardware features and what you've learned while programming for them and make them better and more refined. Surely they can take that IO block and further improve on it or that 300 TOPS ML block and 3D Audio and stack more customisations to them, can't they? That alone would be an improvement on top of what that RDNA 5 reference design can offer them, plus some of their own customisations on top of the silicon. Sony's main focus is various types of physical hardware after all and they've learned a lot designing both the regular and pro ps5's.
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Fbh
Member
On the one hand I agree that endlessly chasing better graphics and production values doesn't make sense anymore. Cutting edge graphics are no longer as big of a sales tool than before and, more importantly, I think devs can't afford to endlessly increase game budgets if sales don't increase accordingly.
Personally I also think last gen graphics with good IQ at high framerates looks better than "next gen" graphics with poor IQ at 30fps.
But on the other hand, you just have to play almost any UE5 game on Ps5 to see the limitations of the hardware. Can some of the poor performance be blamed on the engine? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that tons of games will be using it in the future and we need hardware that can at least brute force decent performance and IQ out of these games.
Personally I also think last gen graphics with good IQ at high framerates looks better than "next gen" graphics with poor IQ at 30fps.
But on the other hand, you just have to play almost any UE5 game on Ps5 to see the limitations of the hardware. Can some of the poor performance be blamed on the engine? Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that tons of games will be using it in the future and we need hardware that can at least brute force decent performance and IQ out of these games.
kaizenkko
Member
This is one of the problems with game development these days. The PS5 isn't the problem — developers should use tools that are compatible with the system, not the other way around.
We'll always rely on newer hardware if developers don't learn to build their games with the standard hardware in mind. And the market is pretty clear now: most people aren't going to buy a new system every 7 or 8 years. Developers and publishers need to adapt to that.
midnightAI
Member
Well we kind of have an idea about what PS6 will concentrate on due to that recent Cerny/AMD talk with a much greater emphasis on ray/path tracing and some quite clever implementations of that along with a much greater emphasis on AI/ML also. I have no doubt they will improve IO further, 3D audio may get some love also but that is already extremely good.
What I am actually curious about outside of graphics is if they have even more innovations on the controller or, if I suspect, they may keep that extremely similar to what they have now but possibly improve on battery tech instead of innovation (silicon carbon or some derivative maybe).
Fbh
Member
I agree.
But that's my point, we can all agree devs should target current hardware and ensure their games run well on it, but I just don't think most of them will. So regardless of what we think they should be doing, the choice will still come down to upgrading or playing even more games at 30fps and/or with shitty IQ.
I've mostly tried to vote with my wallet. The stance I've taken is that if your game seems designed to run well on next gen hardware rather than current gen one, then I'll just skip it until I have access to said next gen hardware, at which point I'll pick up your game from the bargain bin. But to see a true change in the industry that's something most people should do, and I don't think they will (just look at Monster Hunter sales despite the awful performance).
March Climber
Member
Sure you can insult them, but it's not just GAF. The general public have positioned VR gaming into a gimmick-level 'show it off and play it once, then put it away' type of experience and not the next-big-thing with gaming.
Apple wheeled out a premium VR device with the full red carpet rollout, and now they're almost pretending like they never did that at all.
Miyamoto was proven right about VR. Maybe in the far future once they figure out how to make it a more social experience with less bulky headsets, we will finally see it in the forefront instead of as an optional device.
Aside from that I agree about the concept of a controller itself being outdated, especially for first person experiences compared to VR.
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GymWolf
Member
It's gonna be extremely fun watching the sdf being ok with the ps6 portable after the series s trolling, the 180° are gonna be hilarious and they started already...
viveks86
Member
Freeze me and wake me up when:
The headset becomes less bulkyThe headset becomes wirelessI can wear them like glassesI can wear them like contact lensesI can be plugged in Matrix-style- It gets wirelessly transmitted straight to a PSVR2000 nano-chip in my brain, installed with a free shot you can order from Sony megacorp where every 2 minutes of play is interrupted by personalized ads, unless you subscribe to PS Ultra Premium+