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Formula 1 2016 Season |OT2| BUT GRO PER
- Thread starter Ark
- Start date
You know what, I was thinking the same but then again, should he be allowed to drive recklessly just because he got in that situation to no fault of his own?
Damn forgot about that but yeah noticed it the first time and was like how can he get away with this. Yet people focused on Hamilton not getting a penalty while it was Ros that actually kept his position doing this.
BlastProcessing
Member
I am a new fan, but couldn't they just paint lines on the grass and say if you touch this at all it is an automatic 5 second penalty?
They've started using virtual signs in F1 now? Urghhh, it's bad enough in V8 Supercars.
The point isnt to penalize everyone who cuts the track but only those who used it to their advantageon a battle. Imo they should some obstacles / bumpers like in Monza I think or was it Canada. So even if you cut the track you lose time.
None of the penalties handed out yesterday were wrong. Vettel was all for implementing a rule on not moving under braking and he did, so now he gets the penalty that comes with it. Of course they needed to look at it after the race, since they were looking at the the VES incident during the race and probably wanted to look at the data from the teams. Ultimately the right decision, the rule is what it is.
The only problem is not giving Lewis a penalty, the fact that his advantage was erased later should not make any difference, Lewis should have backed up himself and given back the 2 or 3 seconds he gained, if not a position. But for the WDC this is better.
The only problem is not giving Lewis a penalty, the fact that his advantage was erased later should not make any difference, Lewis should have backed up himself and given back the 2 or 3 seconds he gained, if not a position. But for the WDC this is better.
Yeah I agree.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I can't think of a single instance when a driver leaving the circuit who gains time (but gains no places) has had to give back that time.
Max didn't gain a position... he retained a position...
You could say that if Lewis would have had to follow the circuit he had lost a few positions otherwise...
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
There was a direct attempt at an overtake he was defending when Verstappen left the track. Hamilton's advantage was pure time. With the former you can clearly see he would have lost the position, with the latter it's not clear.
But in addition, look at how often cars go straight across the first couple of corners in a GP without being penalised. It happened in T2 in Russia this year and last, for example. Generally the start is a unique circumstance when attempting to come back to the busy track can be quite dangerous.
I think the FIA will rightly instruct the operators of the Mexican GP to modify that corner so it is punishing for it to happen, but I don't believe the lack of punishment at the start is inconsistent.
Terbinator
Member
Charlie sends his regards.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Indeed it does.
Being the person most vocal about manoeuvres in the braking zone, and giving the verbal finger to Charlie Whiting puts this penalty in very clear context.
He didn't have to move for Verstappen, look at it again, there were 3 car lengths between Verstappen and Vettel: https://streamable.com/no07
As for your second point, it doesn't matter how much room you leave. The rule is you don't move under braking. You don't move. He not only moved, he moved off of the racing line and completely pushed RIC straight onto the apex, making sure he would never be able to make the corner decently.
Context matters, he moved under braking, the rule says you get a (10s) penalty for that and he did.
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
I can imagine that their logic there may have been that Rosberg was physically crowded off the track by another car. If Rosberg had ended up losing the position or incurring damage through that, then the other car would probably have been penalised, so Rosberg effectively set things right on his own.
Perhaps.
VES literally drove ROS off the track and you're worried about ROS getting a penalty? (Had he not driven into ROS he might have been better placed to take the position)
I'm just agreeing with you and think there is a larger problem than just with this season.
Gen.Grievous
Member
Of course Hamilton gained an advantage, he missed the corner and would have lost at least two spots if he would have gone back to the track instead of taking an absolutely massive shortcut.
ReadingRambo
Member
None of those shenanigans would've occurred had they just made VES give the place.
If HAM was penalised should VES have been penalised at the start as well? Should ROS perhaps have been penalised for going off track in avoiding VES? Let's take the "had there been a wall there" perspective - in which case HAM, ROS and VES would likely all have been out of the race. F1 has been lenient on starts (for better or worse) for as long as I can remember so there's a clear precedent already.
So Vettel got a penalty for this?:
https://streamable.com/ciz8
What a fucking joke? How is it even remotely comparable to what VES was doing in Belgium or Japan? This is total bullshit.
Also people wanting penalty for ROS, yeah, ROS got pushed off the track by VES and you want to penalise ROS? Madness.
https://streamable.com/ciz8
What a fucking joke? How is it even remotely comparable to what VES was doing in Belgium or Japan? This is total bullshit.
Also people wanting penalty for ROS, yeah, ROS got pushed off the track by VES and you want to penalise ROS? Madness.
Funny how Brundle praises both of them in that footage. "Brilliant driving from both of them."
Yeah, I agree, I am also kinda surprised. Vettel committed early to the right side and left Ricciardo more than a car width of space, despite angling his car towards the corner. It's not like he moved across the track right in front of Ricciardo.
In general I think all this shit is mostly tracks fault. Lots of asphalt run off areas.
With tracks like that you can cut anywhere you want, you can push off other drivers, you can drive recklessly, and all you worry about is maybe a bit of time loss (or gain) or 5 secs penalty.
Bring back gravel traps FFS.
With tracks like that you can cut anywhere you want, you can push off other drivers, you can drive recklessly, and all you worry about is maybe a bit of time loss (or gain) or 5 secs penalty.
Bring back gravel traps FFS.
They'll never bring back gravel traps because they make cars flip over and send shit flying. Asking for them back is like asking for a return of V12 20,000 RPM engines, refueling, and quali being a single 60 minute window with everyone getting 12 laps. It's not happening.
Tbh if the vsc hadn't been triggered and he'd been 4 seconds down the road as a result of cutting that corner he might have had his collar felt, might. Similarly if anyone had been near him going into the corner something might have happened. But stewards are always more lenient on first laps for obvious reasons. Brakes are cold, tyres are cold and you're trying to squeeze a cow through a catflap at turn 1.
As it was, nobody was challenging him for the position and the vsc nullified his advantage. Similarly if VES had nullified his own advantage and given Vet the place, he wouldn't have got a penalty.
Tbh if the vsc hadn't been triggered and he'd been 4 seconds down the road as a result of cutting that corner he might have had his collar felt, might. Similarly if anyone had been near him going into the corner something might have happened. But stewards are always more lenient on first laps for obvious reasons. Brakes are cold, tyres are cold and you're trying to squeeze a cow through a catflap at turn 1.
As it was, nobody was challenging him for the position and the vsc nullified his advantage. Similarly if VES had nullified his own advantage and given Vet the place, he wouldn't have got a penalty.
Terbinator
Member
Exactly, it isn't. Coming to the end of the Eau Rouge Straight or 130R are nothing like the Driving Miss Daisy corner Vettel follows Vestappen through.
The only way they can fix this corner (and many other like it) is only solvable by redesigning the circuit. It's too risky to have a gravel trap there in much the same way there isn't one at Spa's first corner.
Doesn't matter to me. VES maneuvers were completely different.
VET's defense was pretty normal and straightforward, he pointed the car a bit toward the apex and that's it. He left the room for RIC through the whole braking, he left him a lot of room at the corner. It looked good and clean, no crazy changes of directions or unexpected moves. Good attack by RIC and good defence by VET. Crazy to hand a penalty for that.
They apparently have the telemetry that says he did what he was penalized for.
Here's another view:https://streamable.com/56qg
Where Brundle says: "That was a big old move in the braking zone"
You can clearly see Vettel move to the line behind Verstappen, then you can hear the downshifting and braking of the cars which shows they are in the zone, then Vettel moves across towards Ricciardo.
It looks more dramatic from that angle, I can agree there.
brotkasten
Member
Can you guys imagine the shitstorm, if the championship gets decided like that?
Thing is, it doesn't matter if it looks dramatic. The drivers, Vettel at the forefront, made a big deal about getting this rule implemented and it's clear as can be, when you hit the brakes, you can not move from your line. Even if the situation was completely different and everyone made the corner and no lock-ups or anything happened, he should have still gotten the penalty.
It would have been fine, probably, two races ago, but since last race that is the rule and they apply to everyone, not just Max.
I just love the irony of Vettel being the first to get caught out with it though, but I imagine he won't be the last as it's quite an adjustment for everyone to fight the instinct of blocking an overtaking attempt.
Speaking of, this result has secured 3rd place in the WDC for RIC.
CaseyTappy
Member
http://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsp...o/news-story/7f2776146aff7ba91dab9a3173555205
Interesting read and the whole radio transcript if you scroll down .
Max was told to hold position and after that that the investigation would be after the race so he was good to go .
Ferrari otoh told Seb wrongly that Max was told to let him pass so he got really angry with Max expecting him to give way .
Of course RB wouldn't just give up position without a message from the stewards .
Interesting read and the whole radio transcript if you scroll down .
Max was told to hold position and after that that the investigation would be after the race so he was good to go .
Ferrari otoh told Seb wrongly that Max was told to let him pass so he got really angry with Max expecting him to give way .
Of course RB wouldn't just give up position without a message from the stewards .
nature boy
Member
FTR, I was being sarcastic with "this is fine". Rosberg had nowhere to go
CaseyTappy
Member
Moving under braking was not strictly forbidden before , Seb was one of the drivers that pushed a penalty for it before Austin .
You reap what you sow !
The below footage shows it quite clearly.
You can see him brake and then start to move left.
WorriedCitizen
Member
This new rule needs further clarification imo. Seb didn't drive erraticaly. It was normal defensive driving. Albeit tight he left enough space for Ricciardo on the inside. My understanding after the Suzuka incident was that the rule applies to wild last moment moves.
Jezbollah
Member
Adam Scott Aukerman
Member
From the FIA decision letter, the three criteria seem pretty clear to me. In this instance, regardless of the space that was left between Ricciardo and the edge of the track, he had to take avoiding action to avoid a collision with Vettel - while under braking.
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