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[Jack B]

By full-on I mean dynamic weather where not only are all the track and driving physics properly adjusted and accurate, but the weather, wind, water, temperature, humidity, etc behaves and changes as close to accurate as possible. Stuff we're not likely to see done right for a long while.

GTR2's weather mod has varying degrees of rain, wind and temperature that cause havok with the cars handling/grip levels.

My guess is the underlining physics behind the weather don't take much into account except grip levels and temp, but it does give you some setup and tire selection challenges especially because the weather changes so much during a 30 minute stint. Too much actually, but that's another story.

 

[theignoramus]

Director? Not sure what that is, but if he's a dev, then I apologize and retract that part of my comment. Maybe they did. Oh well. Shouldn't have been said, but it honestly doesn't bother me more than any other company that blathers on how awesome their game is. Reviews and my own feeling based on the demo's are what I use to guide me in purchases, certainly not company PR or "taglines" on boxes.

Anywhoo, I've said my part for the day. Work day is over, off to home. I hope I didn't offend anyone. It seems like I've finally made my point clear enough that I couldn't say any more on the matter anyhow.

I'm not using Dan Greenawalt's PR against FM3 (I already did that with Chespace and the "we dont do bullshots" scandal:lol :lol :lol ) I just like to mock his comments whenever possible.

 

[Jack B]

wtf? absolutely not. but i love this response, which is all too common on a forum nowadays as a way to belittle a response without actually saying shit. bravo good sir.

ad hominem

 

[Jack B]

Since he brought up iRacing (which is basically a modified NR03 engine)

iRacing's CEO is Dave Kaemmer who among the 20 sims he's written/produced in the last 20 years since 1989 with Indianapolis 500 for the PC wrote the two definitive sims Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003 of our hobby. It could be argued Gran Turismo is the 3rd, but it was big in different ways than setting high standards for physics at the time.

iRacing and Dave Kaemer bought the rights to NR 2003 to use the bits of code that didn't need much tweaking and re-write everything else or create it from scratch.

iRacing has been working on this for 5 years and spent approx $20m on the project. It doesn't take 5 years to create a mod. Your "it's basically a modified NR03 engine" comment is like saying to Space Shuttle is a modified Apollo Rocket, because it uses some of the same technology.

It's a common comment by people outside of iRacing though. Much like the comments PC fans make about console gaming and Gran Turismo and Forza in particular. It comes from not enough information, but now you know.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

So how do you feel about the title "Ghostbusters: The Video Game"?

Is it too arrogant? Should it have been "A Video Game"?

This argument is ridiculous...

Isn't that an invalid comparison as there's no corresponding adjective being used to compare against?

 

[Jack B]

No no no no.

Changing the properties of a car to make sure it has similar track times was the old fashioned way of making a sim when consoles were not powerful enough to factor in all the variables required. With consoles and PCs being much more powerful and their simulations taking much more into account there is no reason to do this anymore.

I have no idea what your point it with this statement... Was their a memo to the sim industry, that went out on this new fangled technique?

 

[Khalifa Jayy]

Depends on how you look at it, really...

The Real Driving Simulator [as in the only game that simulates real driving]

vs.

The Real Driving Simulator [as in a game that simulates real driving]

 

[ShapeGSX]

Same here. I read it as the "real driving" simulator, not "the real" driving simulator.

That would indicate that "real" is an adverb, wouldn't it? That doesn't sound right to me. When my wife calls me in the car, I don't say "I'm real driving right now."

I think it makes more sense as a noun. So does this dictionary (definition 14):
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/real

But you could be right for all I know, Japanese to English translation has never seemed to be perfect to me.

 

[Duelist]

What the hell are we even arguing about anymore? Aren't we supposed to be comparing games here?

 

[Tenden]

Isn't that an invalid comparison as there's no corresponding adjective being used to compare against?

I'm just responding to shpankey's post claiming that PD's slogan can only be read as The Real Driving Simulator because of the use of "the" instead of "a" or some other variation.

In both GT and Ghostbuster's case, the tag is referring to it's respective title, not it's competition.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Aren't we supposed to be comparing games here?

:lol

I'm just responding to shpankey's post claiming that PD's slogan can only be read as The Real Driving Simulator because of the use of "the" instead of "a" or some other variation.

In both GT and Ghostbuster's case, the tag is referring to it's respective title, not it's competition.

I believe in the GB case though, its not a tag line but actually part of the game's title proper.

 

[Iknos]

I have no idea what your point it with this statement... Was their a memo to the sim industry, that went out on this new fangled technique?

With previous GT games car and tire performance was tweaked so that it would get similar times to real life track times.

X variable + Y variable = RL track time
So you play around with X and Y to get the right track time. Sort of working backwards from the answer.

But nowadays the console sims have many more variables that it makes more sense to have a fully comprehensive physics engine than to tweak the thousands of variables to match that ideal track time.

They probably check track times to make sure they have the tracks modeled properly but in order to test their physics engines there are many other better ways to benchmark it.

 

[bishoptl]

If we're going by the rules in the OP, since he wasn't a junior he's only banned until New Years. I'm sure everyone will be waiting with breathless anticipation until then.

I'm gonna bring him - and only him - back early just to get things going again

 

[Liabe Brave]

That would indicate that "real" is an adverb, wouldn't it?

No, it would make it an adjective, describing the gerund (not verb) "driving".

When my wife calls me in the car, I don't say "I'm real driving right now."

Again, think gerund, not verb. It would make perfect sense for you to tell your wife, "I'm doing some real driving".

 

[Omar Ismail]

You know.

DG made some bold claims... and that's a big check for your ass to cash.
But it looks like they pulled it off.

Kudos T10.

As racing game fans we should be celebrating ANYBODY that moves the genre forward. Usually games move the genre forward in one, maybe two ways, but it looks like T10 have done so in many ways: accessibility, online, community, customization.

This raises the standard and forces all developers/competition to raise their game, resulting in better products for everyone.

So: if you're truly a Gran Turisimo fan and not just a T10/Xbox 360/Forza hater, then you'd actually want Forza 3 to do well to get PD cracking.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I'm gonna bring him - and only him - back early just to get things going again

You are an evil genius!

You know.

DG made some bold claims... and that's a big check for your ass to cash.
But it looks like they pulled it off.

Kudos T10.

As racing game fans we should be celebrating ANYBODY that moves the genre forward. Usually games move the genre forward in one, maybe two ways, but it looks like T10 have done so in many ways: accessibility, online, community, customization.

This raises the standard and forces all developers/competition to raise their game, resulting in better products for everyone.

So: if you're truly a Gran Turisimo fan and not just a T10/Xbox 360/Forza hater, then you'd actually want Forza 3 to do well to get PD cracking.

Indeed. It looks like T10 went above and beyond with their clutch modeling, something a very very small % of users will truly be able to appreciate given the pricing of the Fanatec wheels. I expect PD to do similar things in terms of going above and beyond. Come on PD, take advantage of the high-end wheel setups available out there...I want GT5 to automatically support the brake pedal vibration in my clubsport pedals without needing to manually tweak them!

 

[KHarvey16]

GT's tag line and the Forza "definitive" thing both have the exact same purpose. They are trying to set themselves apart from the competition. Getting upset over it(or letting those feelings spill over into your perception of the actual game itself) is pretty naive and childish.

 

[chubigans]

So how do you feel about the title "Ghostbusters: The Video Game"?

Is it too arrogant? Should it have been "A Video Game"?

This argument is ridiculous...

Bwahaha :lol

 

[theignoramus]

I'm gonna bring him - and only him - back early just to get things going again

OMGyes. Interfectum is straight jokes. (I dont mean that as insult either)

 

[shpankey]

iRacing's CEO is Dave Kaemmer who among the 20 sims he's written/produced in the last 20 years since 1989 with Indianapolis 500 for the PC wrote the two definitive sims Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003 of our hobby. It could be argued Gran Turismo is the 3rd, but it was big in different ways than setting high standards for physics at the time.

iRacing and Dave Kaemer bought the rights to NR 2003 to use the bits of code that didn't need much tweaking and re-write everything else or create it from scratch.

iRacing has been working on this for 5 years and spent approx $20m on the project. It doesn't take 5 years to create a mod. Your "it's basically a modified NR03 engine" comment is like saying to Space Shuttle is a modified Apollo Rocket, because it uses some of the same technology.

It's a common comment by people outside of iRacing though. Much like the comments PC fans make about console gaming and Gran Turismo and Forza in particular. It comes from not enough information, but now you know.

Sorry, I do apologize. As you said, I made the comment on the lack of information. I haven't followed iRacing too closely except back when they first started I was invited to the beta, where you actually had to have a copy of NR03 to even install it. I'm sure since then it's gone through major changes that I'm obviously unaware of. But believe me when I say, I absolutely meant no disrespect whatsoever. I've been tempted a few times to jump in, but the subscription model and my lack of time and family, work etc has always given me pause.

 

[RSTEIN]

I'm gonna bring him - and only him - back early just to get things going again

you can bring him back because he's a mod controlled joke character... right? Right?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

ITT a bunch of english nerds crap the computer nerds style with an argument about semantics.

Get a job.

 

[shpankey]

So how do you feel about the title "Ghostbusters: The Video Game"?

Is it too arrogant? Should it have been "A Video Game"?

This argument is ridiculous...

Not as ridiculous as the one you're making here.

Obviously, Ghostbusters: The Video Game is making the distinction between itself and say, the movie. There's nothing confusing about it. I'm surprised you even bring this up as an argument frankly.

"The Real Driving Simulator" is obviously going to be interpreted by most gamers one way. Again, I'm tired of repeating it, but this will be my last time to make the point, knowing what I just said, that PD or any logical person would (or could) understand it as such, knowingly put it on the box and allowed it to be. At the very least, one could say that they would AT LEAST know that some people would take it that way... so why not just be clear? Why not just say 'A real driving simulator' and not leave anything to be misunderstood? Somebody in the PR dept would surely understand this, therefore like I said, they put exactly what they wanted on the box.

I find it funny, that before in the thread and later, both times, when the subject was brought up, the posters either knowingly or unknowingly left the word "The" off entirely. Even putting it in quotes. And now, later even, people are saying I understood it as "Real Driving Simulator" and not as "The Real Driving Simulator" when in fact, the latter is exactly what is ON the box. If you can't find that the least bit funny, I don't know what is.

Anyhow, I've had enough. I give. If it needs arguing further, count me out. Neither GT4's tagline nor FM3's "definitive" ever bothered me that much in the first place. I was just trying to point out the irony of the whole "definitive" argument that so many GT fans were obsessing about.

Peace.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Not as ridiculous as the one you're making here.

Obviously, Ghostbusters: The Video Game is making the distinction between itself and say, the movie. There's nothing confusing about it. I'm surprised you even bring this up as an argument frankly.

Again, it's also not a tag line. It's part of the game's actual title, mainly as you say to differentiate itself from the movie.

 

[shpankey]

Again, it's also not a tag line. It's part of the actual game's title, mainly as you say to differentiate itself from the movie.

I only used the word "tag line" because if you look back a few pages when this was brought up, was the word used for it's defense... ie: It's just a tag line! Nothing more.


Edit: the post below makes it clearer now. I get how you guys are taking it, nevermind the below


You'd have to take the word real into the consideration as well. "The real" implies that there is something not real. Either competition or at the very least earlier versions of itself. I'm sitting here, and with all honestly, trying my hardest to understand it in another way, a way that is less direct than what it says and how I understand it now and can't. At some point, you have to leave one of the two words off to take it another way. Which is exactly what has been done in every post I've read about it where someone says they did. But alas, I'm obviously no grammar expert as one could surmise rather quickly from any of my posts. But I'm seriously not trying to be obtuse.

 

[user_nat]

Never even thought of GT's slogan as "The real driving simulator".

To me "The real" makes more sense though.

 

[Firewire]

Can't wait for the argument over box art. Should be crazy!

 

[shpankey]

Never even thought of GT's slogan as "The real driving simulator".

To me "The real" makes more sense though.

Yes I agree, and they had to know in the very least, some, if not even most gamers, would/could understand it the other way and could have easily made their real intent perfectly clear. "A real driving simulator" would absolutely convey that point perfectly clear with no misunderstanding. Which is why I say they put what they wanted on the box.

 

[Shurs]

Shpankey, the term The Real Driving Simulator has been Gran Turismo's slogan since the first Gran Tursimo on PSone, I don't see why you keep referring to it as GT4's slogan as it predated GT4 by three games.

 

[shpankey]

Shpankey, the term The Real Driving Simulator has been Gran Turismo's slogan since the first Gran Tursimo on PSone, I don't see why you keep referring to it as GT4's slogan as it predated GT4 by three games.

I wasn't aware of that. I only owned a PS1 for a short time and never played the earlier versions. I only brought up GT4 b/c I actually bought it and when I did, it was displayed on the box and caught my notice. And I don't mean to be referring to it as their slogan, I just keep repeating what I'm told it is. One time I was told it was just a tag line, another time it was said it was a slogan, then catch phrase and I don't even remember. I don't know what it's called to be honest.

I want to be careful in this, because a latecomer into the thread could think I took issue with that "tag line" or "slogan" or whatever it's being called now and re-point out that I didn't have a problem with it, only with people having a problem with the whole "definitive" debate that raged on while ignoring it on GT.

Again, I don't think either company should do it, but it doesn't bother me that much in all reality. I just have an issue with hypocrisy if and when it's being displayed. Whether it even was or not, as this point, I'm not even sure any more.

 

[Shurs]

I wasn't aware of that. I only owned a PS1 for a short time and never played the earlier versions. I only brought up GT4 b/c I actually bought it and when I did, it was displayed on the box and caught my notice.

It was meant to differentiate the game from the arcade style Ridge Racers and Need for Speeds of the time. Not to slight some non-existent driving simulator on the PSone. It was a way of letting customers know they'd have to drive realistically.

Now you know.

 

[shpankey]

Very well. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

Still would have been better to use "A" instead of "The" but your point is made nonetheless.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Can't wait for the argument over box art. Should be crazy!

It'll depend on the region obviously.

 

[shpankey]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict it will have a car on the cover.

Spoiler

Mazdaspeed 3 ftw!

 

[theignoramus]

I wasn't aware of that.

edit: beaten.

 

[Liabe Brave]

ITT a bunch of english nerds crap the computer nerds style with an argument about semantics.

Get a job.

I think you mean "cramp the computer nerds' style. . .".

And I'm posting from work, thanks.

 

[AndyD]

Very well. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.

Still would have been better to use "A" instead of "The" but your point is made nonetheless.

"A" could be one of many, "the" emphasizes it was the only one.

Never will you hear "a FPS set in WW2" or "a flight simulator" as a subtitle, because it makes it sound generic.

Glad your confusion was cleared up.

 

[Tenden]

Not as ridiculous as the one you're making here.

Obviously, Ghostbusters: The Video Game is making the distinction between itself and say, the movie. There's nothing confusing about it. I'm surprised you even bring this up as an argument frankly.

Gran Turismo The Real Driving Simulator is making a distinction between itself and arcade racers.

Anyway, I see that the discussion has come to a close so let's leave it at that...

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

We still arguing graphics in here anymore?

Because I got around to downloading the Forza demo, and seriously, I love the fact that it's 60 frames, but fuck ME it looks average as all fuck.

Why can't Turn 10 IMPROVE the looks of their games as opposed to just SAYING they've improved the look of their games?

I mean GT Prologue looks better. And supposedly GT5 is meant to look even better again (isn't it)

 

[Truespeed]

Anyone have any idea what's going on here? I probably missed the explanation.

 

[user_nat]

Anyone have any idea what's going on here? I probably missed the explanation.

Heavy wind.

Spoiler

Or an online race with lag maybe? More likely a glitch though

 

[FtsH]

Anyone have any idea what's going on here? I probably missed the explanation.

FM has no real damage calculation. It's simplified as this:

divide a car into zone ABCDE, (yes, only a small number of zones, that's why you see the whole front of that car gets damaged all together)

pre-render damage models 01234 for each zone to represent different damages,(that's why no partially scratch, it's gonna be either model 1 or 2 )

in game, for example, model C3(front bumper level 3 damage model, for your gif, probably) will be instantly loaded to replace the normal car model (C0) when zone C is detected to be crashed with a speed between xx and yy. During normal gaming you won't pay attention to the transition but if you slow it down to make that gif...:lol

 

[skulpt]

Bingo. Just play the demo for half an hour just crashing, and you'll see this simplified system. Hit a front end corner of the car, and both sides of the front of the car will have damage... Both headlights will be smashed out. That's why some of us went "wutttt?" when we heard the words "realtime deformation" uttered from PD lately. It would be taking damage to an actual sim like level. The damage model in current sims to this point (including Forza 3) has been poor mans arcade" at best.

FM has no real damage calculation. It's simplified as this:

divide a car into zone ABCDE, (yes, only a small number of zones, that's why you see the whole front of that car gets damaged all together)

pre-render damage models 01234 for each zone to represent different damages,(that's why no partially scratch, it's gonna be either model 1 or 2 )

in game, for example, model C3(front bumper level 3 damage model, for your gif, probably) will be instantly loaded to replace the normal car model (C0) when zone C is detected to be crashed with a speed between xx and yy. During normal gaming you won't pay attention to the transition but if you slow it down to make that gif...:lol

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Bingo. Just play the demo for half an hour just crashing, and you'll see this simplified system. Hit the driver side corner of the car, and both sides of the front of the car will have damage... Both headlights will be smashed out. That's why some of us went "wutttt?" when we heard the words "realtime deformation" uttered from PD lately. It would be taking damage to an actual sim like level. The damage model in current sims to this point (including Forza 3) has been poor mans arcade" at best.

Are we just talking about visual damage only here? Because the damage modeling in terms of how the cars perform can't be described as "arcade" at all. Hell, it sounds like you can totally trash your clutch, gearbox, transmission, etc just from improperly using the clutch while shifting if you do it enough according to the ISR Forza review, who also thought that while the damage model still seemed too soft it was good enough to be considered a benchmark and was even better than some PC sims like iRacing.

 

[theignoramus]

What is Burnout Paradise doing with damage...it looks so awesome.

 

[Jack B]

With previous GT games car and tire performance was tweaked so that it would get similar times to real life track times.

X variable + Y variable = RL track time
So you play around with X and Y to get the right track time. Sort of working backwards from the answer.

But nowadays the console sims have many more variables that it makes more sense to have a fully comprehensive physics engine than to tweak the thousands of variables to match that ideal track time.

They probably check track times to make sure they have the tracks modeled properly but in order to test their physics engines there are many other better ways to benchmark it.

Ok, thanks. I see what you're saying now. Still some of that though in all the sims. The grip isn't enough, so they limit the brakes or add in engine breaking or something else. Everything is dependent on everything else and getting everything perfect and the lap times accurate just isn't happening now. It gets better every few years, but it's going to be a while still. Eventually, though close gets good enough.

 

[user_nat]

What is Burnout Paradise doing with damage...it looks so awesome.

Same thing has Forza I believe. Pre scripted damage.

 

[ShapeGSX]

What is Burnout Paradise doing with damage...it looks so awesome.

Well, first of all, it stops everything and it runs the crash in super slow motion. I'm not sure that's an option in a 60fps simulator. I do seem to remember that rollovers can run at full speed, though. Those are probably not as demanding as the full on crushing that the front of the car can get in slow motion, though.

Besides this, though, licensed car manufacturers simply won't allow the kind of destruction that Burnout does to their cars in a game. If you were Ford, would you want a game showing your car crumpling like an accordion? Hell, Turn 10 only just convinced them to let cars roll over!

 

[Truespeed]

FM has no real damage calculation. It's simplified as this:

divide a car into zone ABCDE, (yes, only a small number of zones, that's why you see the whole front of that car gets damaged all together)

pre-render damage models 01234 for each zone to represent different damages,(that's why no partially scratch, it's gonna be either model 1 or 2 )

in game, for example, model C3(front bumper level 3 damage model, for your gif, probably) will be instantly loaded to replace the normal car model (C0) when zone C is detected to be crashed with a speed between xx and yy. During normal gaming you won't pay attention to the transition but if you slow it down to make that gif...:lol

Yes, there's no doubt some trickery is being performed by their smoke and mirrors engine - which just happens to be encapsulated in their 360hz physics engine. Bring on the Burnout damage. Anyone have any captures of how Burnout Paradise behaves?

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Yes, there's no doubt some trickery is being performed by their smoke and mirrors engine - which just happens to be encapsulated in their 360hz physics engine. Bring on the Burnout damage. Anyone have any captures of how Burnout Paradise behaves?

Doesn't Burnout stop everything going on in the game and let the damage sim take over? Hence the close-up and super slow playback.