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[theox2g6]

It just boggles my mind how NFS Shift doesn't get enough mention. At least with visuals, it is easily a worthy rival of the top contenders, especially the pc version. IMO, it isn't that too far from GT5 even in bullshots.

 

[Shaneus]

It just boggles my mind how NFS Shift doesn't get enough mention. At least with visuals, it is easily a worthy rival of the top contenders, especially the pc version. IMO, it isn't that too far from GT5 even in bullshots.

This is a thread about GT5 vs. Forza 3. And you wonder why a game other than those two doesn't mention?

 

[Melfice7]

Not to mention 30fps and its still quite far in quality imo

 

[theox2g6]

This is a thread about GT5 vs. Forza 3. And you wonder why a game other than those two doesn't mention?

I wasn't referring in particular to this thread. I'm just alluding to general circumstances in discussions of the best looking racing game.

 

[theox2g6]

Not to mention 30fps and its still quite far in quality imo

With regards to that, I wasn't referring to the inferior console versions. The pc version is beyond capable of running 60 fps and even higher and is very well optimized. I'm just speaking of Shift in general so framerate is irrelevant especially if the pc version runs 60 fps maxed out on an average gaming machine.

 

[AndyD]

It just boggles my mind how NFS Shift doesn't get enough mention. At least with visuals, it is easily a worthy rival of the top contenders, especially the pc version. IMO, it isn't that too far from GT5 even in bullshots.

Is that console or PC version?

I would say the PC comparison should stay out because its a whole another beast. A PC game should look vastly superior to GT5 and F3 because it can work at ungodly resolutions above 1080p, 16x aa and af and a high framerate on the correct rig.

I didnt think it looked as good as those shots in the PS3 demo though... not for me anyway.

And if it fails to utterly dominate those two on the PC at ungodly specs, then it does not deserve a mention.

 

[Goldrusher]

Good point.

 

[theox2g6]

Is that console or PC version?

I would say the PC comparison should stay out because its a whole another beast. A PC game should look vastly superior to GT5 and F3 because it can work at ungodly resolutions above 1080p, 16x aa and af and a high framerate on the correct rig.

I didnt think it looked as good as those shots in the PS3 demo though... not for me anyway.

No it shouldn't. Visuals aren't all about resolution and AA. No matter how much AA and resolution you add to a ps1 game, it still won't look as good as the worst current gen game in 480p.

Remember that we're talking about a multiplatform game here on multiple platforms. Considering that the pc version is a direct port of the 360 version, the only advantage it has is AA and resolution and framerate. So it's actually very impressive that it can rival the likes of exclusives like GT5 and FM3 that have much higher dedication, development time and budgets.


Also, the pc shots I posted are direct feeds from fraps. None of them are 1080p or even remotely close. I couldn't manage to run the game at such a high resolution with the level of AA I use and still break a stable 60 fps. Most of the shots were taken at 1280x720 and 1360x768, easily doable by consoles.

 

[Keikoku]

NFS Shift looks great indeed. But the driving feels odd, plus the game runs like shit with ATI cards. :/

 

[theox2g6]

And if it fails to utterly dominate those two on the PC at ungodly specs, then it does not deserve a mention.

It doesn't have to utterly dominate those two. It's a friggin multiplatform game. It's not a pc exclusive. The pc version is a port of the console versions. Besides AA and resolution, easily compensated by with photo modes of both GT and FM, I don't see how it isn't a fair comparison. It's not like I'm running in 1080p or 2560x1600 to take ginormous screens to compare.


My pc is far from ungodly. I built it 3 years ago. My GPU launched a few weeks before the ps3. Plus, my machine has to put up with the huge overhead of running an entire clunky OS in the background while the game is running unlike the consoles. So I really don't see your argument here.

 

[theox2g6]

NFS Shift looks great indeed. But the driving feels odd, plus the game runs like shit with ATI cards. :/

That I won't argue. I prefer the gameplay of the other two games. Especially with the wheel. I was just making a point about visuals.


Now when Shift on pc is modded to look better, that's another discussion altogether

 

[Liabe Brave]

It doesn't have to utterly dominate those two. It's a friggin multiplatform game. It's not a pc exclusive. The pc version is a port of the console versions.

That hurts your point, not helps it! Your PC can run Shift at 60fps with high AA and the consoles can't (or else they would), and that's with (you claim) no optimization for PC. Your hardware, therefore, must be better than the console hardware, regardless of when you bought it. I hope you can see why comparing a game on better hardware is kind of pointless.

 

[Naughtboy]

It just boggles my mind how NFS Shift doesn't get enough mention. At least with visuals, it is easily a worthy rival of the top contenders, especially the pc version. IMO, it isn't that too far from GT5 even in bullshots.

VS

Now i know why i'm so amazed with the way the tyres in Forza look, those NFS ones look fudgly.

 

[theox2g6]

That hurts your point, not helps it! Your PC can run Shift at 60fps with high AA and the consoles can't (or else they would), and that's with (you claim) no optimization for PC. Your hardware, therefore, must be better than the console hardware, regardless of when you bought it. I hope you can see why comparing a game on better hardware is kind of pointless.

Flawed logic, what's the proof that the consoles can't run Shift with AA at 60 fps? How do you know it couldn't have turned out better if it was built as an exclusive game that took advantage of one of the consoles? The fact that it's multiplatform should clue you in why it's not. Remember they had to release on tons of platforms as opposed being focused on one piece of hardware. They had to use a middleware engine as opposed to a dedicated engine like Polyphony and Turn 10. Let's not even forget the budget and development time comparison. Shift pales in comparison to the two. So yes it's impressive. Imagine if a multiplat mainstream game like COD came close to Killzone 2 in visuals, it would be impressive no matter you spin it.

 

[bj00rn_]

http://i33.tinypic.com/116t4j4.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

Nice off-topic resurrection of this thread.. :(

 

[AndyD]

Flawed logic, what's the proof that the consoles can't run Shift with AA at 60 fps? How do you know it couldn't have turned out better if it was built as an exclusive game that took advantage of one of the consoles? The fact that it's multiplatform should clue you in why it's not. Remember they had to release on tons of platforms as opposed being focused on one piece of hardware. They had to use a middleware engine as opposed to a dedicated engine like Polyphony and Turn 10. Let's not even forget the budget and development time comparison. Shift pales in comparison to the two. So yes it's impressive. Imagine if a multiplat mainstream game like COD came close to Killzone 2 in visuals, it would be impressive no matter you spin it.

Except the question was not whether it is impressive on its own, which it certainly is, but whether it compares well to the two namesakes of the thread, which it does not.

So yes, his underlying logic is correct. Compare console to console as that was the original premise and question. If the game can't do aa and 60fps and bells and whistles on a console, then it can't be compared directly and it isn't in general.

 

[zedge]

Was an official answer given on why there is no shifting animation in Forza 3? Can't find anything.

 

[Death Dealer]

Apparently it was too hard for them to implement. I remember hearing something about how they tried it but the glove clipped through the wheel. And the point was made there will always be lag in the shifting animation anyways, so it's not worth doing.

I think GT5's implementation looks great. It will add to the immersion for me. I've see videos in a behind the shoulder view, where you can tell the entire driver's body is modeled.

 

[zedge]

Apparently it was too hard for them to implement. I remember hearing something about how they tried it but the glove clipped through the wheel. And the point was made there will always be lag in the shifting animation anyways, so it's not worth doing.

I think GT5's implementation looks great. It will add to the immersion for me. I've see videos in a behind the shoulder view, where you can tell the entire driver's body is modeled.

Thats weird, most other games have no issue with this.. even Real Racing on the iPhone.

 

[Omar Ismail]

Now that F3 has come out and we have the reviews and everything. I have a question for gt fans. Do you think it will review better or worse than F3?

 

[BeeDog]

Most likely worse. But shouldn't really matter, both consoles will have their own awesome exclusive 60 fps "sim" racers.

 

[Diablohead]

Most likely worse. But shouldn't really matter, both consoles will have their own awesome exclusive 60 fps "sim" racers.

Give this poster a cookie, ding ding ding

 

[commedieu]

Now that F3 has come out and we have the reviews and everything. I have a question for gt fans. Do you think it will review better or worse than F3?

I think it will be in the realm of "good GT" scores, which are far above the 92% average of the highest forza title.

GT4 was bashed for no online, and lack of damage. Well seeing as how that is now included x ???, Its safe to say that unless Reviewers are going to concentrate on Forza's strengths(decal painting & community) rather than the type of game GT is, it should get quite a few perfect scores. We've seen why Forza 1 2 and 3 scored well, for having those same exact features, and enhanced. Yet, those features haven't been able to trump GT's better scoring titles.

I'm not sure how you can give it lower marks for its presentation/gameplay unless you specifically criticize it for not having a livery editor, auction house, and being easier to play for casuals. It would be like marking F3 down because it has 8 cars instead of 16, 720p instead of 60fps and so on. I didn't see that happening for Forza, so hopefully GT will be reviewed for what the game offers, and the type of game it is.

If it scores lower than F3, that means that all "sims" after F3 will also have to score lower for not having livery editors & auction houses. And that hasn't happened with f1&2. I don't think having a 92% average dictates that at all.

 

[bj00rn_]

Was an official answer given on why there is no shifting animation in Forza 3? Can't find anything.

Forza 3 does have shift animation. Seriously, it does.

 

[Doc Evils]

Now that F3 has come out and we have the reviews and everything. I have a question for gt fans. Do you think it will review better or worse than F3?

That's like asking if Modern Warfare 2 will review better than Resistance 2.

 

[KHarvey16]

If it scores lower than F3, that means that all "sims" after F3 will also have to score lower for not having livery editors & auction houses. And that hasn't happened with f1&2. I don't think having a 92% average dictates that at all.

Don't discount the quality of FM3's core driving mechanics. Assuming a better score for FM3 requires reviewers to focus on other features is ignoring the very large number of people who believe FM3 is the best console racing experience yet. If GT5's driving model is on par or better than FM3's it's gonna be a great 2010 for fans of the genre.

 

[commedieu]

Don't discount the quality of FM3's core driving mechanics. Assuming a better score for FM3 requires reviewers to focus on other features is ignoring the very large number of people who believe FM3 is the best console racing experience yet. If GT5's driving model is on par or better than FM3's it's gonna be a great 2010 for fans of the genre.

No one is discounting FM3's core driving mechanics. But the reviewers just give a pedestrian "well it feels different when you change cars" then go on to glow about the Online functionality, and descriptions about campaign & earning money. Read the detail about a Race Pro/Ferrari Challenge/GT physic review, theres actually more than a paragraph saying "well its fun". Should Simbin/Codemasters future titles be discounted due to no livery editor?

Physics is something that is subjective when it comes to someone like a Greg Miller from IGN, racing with a controller. Both games have praise from manufacturers/race car drivers etc saying "this feels like reality". Which is about as definitive of an answer any armchair racers can get. GT5p's driving model is already "on par" with forza all it needed was damage. Most sims out there are on par as well, which is why im saying that unless GT is reviewed for not having online auction houses and livery swapping, that there is no way to ignore all of its confirmed features and give it a lower score based on those reasons. Reviews aren't saying GT has competition because Forza simulates cars better, the reviews are isolating the Online functionality/Ease of driving aids/All cars unlocked/Rewind as defining features of a -racing/driving simulation-. If GT is graded by that standard, no GT game will ever be able to trump Forza unless it adds a livery editor,rewind,autobrake,unlock all vehicles, as well as all other sims after Forza.

So its going to be interesting to see what reviewers are going to state with their future reviews of GT. If its rated for what it is compared to other car sims including Forza, for Phsyics/Graphics/Sound/Re playability/Presentation or if its just compared to forza's feature list and deducted points for not being a carbon copy.

 

[rjcc]

720p instead of 60fps and so on. I

wat?

 

[Omar Ismail]

That's like asking if Modern Warfare 2 will review better than Resistance 2.

I don't even know what you're implying here. Is GT or Forza supposed to be the equivalent of MW2?

 

[FateBreaker]

That's like asking if Modern Warfare 2 will review better than Resistance 2.

What?

 

[RSTEIN]

My head hurts

 

[mujun]

After playing a couple of hours of Forza 3 I wonder how the hell people in this thread were trying to argue that it looks only slightly better than Forza 2.

 

[CrushDance]

I don't even know what you're implying here. Is GT or Forza supposed to be the equivalent of MW2?

Lets see.

NFS 100mil+
Mario Kart 46mil+
Gran Turismo 50mil+(3.9 million for the "demo")



















Forza

?
Forza is a good series but it's nowhere close to those three in terms of reception.

 

[Vast Inspiration]

Its so amusing to see the GT fans being so defensive. Its like theres no possible way for a newcomer racing game lol its already on its 3rd iteration) can't possibly take the crown away from the precious pioneer. I mean, these guys didn't acknowledge Forza because PS2 was so easily destroying the Xbox and GT fans could just ignore the better reviewing game and take about sales if need be.

Then Forza 2 comes out and they can make fun of the graphics and ignore it since theres no mainline GT equivalent on the PS3.

Now, Forza 3 has come out, its perfected everything Turn 10 has been doing for the past 5 years, and it widely being hailed as the best console racing sim. And now that the GT equivalent is going to come out in a few months they're getting more and more defensive again. Whats pathetic is that if all else fails, and even the graphics aren't enough to sway the scores, then they'll just point to sales. Okay sure, theres no doubt that GT5 will sell more, but how much will those fans die inside if it doesn't score as well as Forza 3?

Lets see.

NFS 100mil+
Mario Kart 46mil+
Gran Turismo 50mil+(3.9 million for the "demo")
Forza is a good series but it's nowhere close to those three in terms of reception.

In a discussion about quality and REVIEWS, what possibly made you think that mentioning MW2 was a refrence to sales?

Even the original guy who brought it up used it to troll Forza, but not with sales numbers, but because MW2 will definitely score higher than Resistance 2.

Too bad that GT4, GT HD, GT PSP, GT Prologue have all failed to score even remotely in the 90s. Keep hanging on GT fans, grasp those straws!

 

[CrushDance]

Its so amusing to see the GT fans being so defensive. Its like theres no possible way for a newcomer racing game lol its already on its 3rd iteration) can't possibly take the crown away from the precious pioneer. I mean, these guys didn't acknowledge Forza because PS2 was so easily destroying the Xbox and GT fans could just ignore the better reviewing game and take about sales if need be.

Then Forza 2 comes out and they can make fun of the graphics and ignore it since theres no mainline GT equivalent on the PS3.

Now, Forza 3 has come out, its perfected everything Turn 10 has been doing for the past 5 years, and it widely being hailed as the best console racing sim. And now that the GT equivalent is going to come out in a few months they're getting more and more defensive again. Whats pathetic is that if all else fails, and even the graphics aren't enough to sway the scores, then they'll just point to sales. Okay sure, theres no doubt that GT5 will sell more, but how much will those fans die inside if it doesn't score as well as Forza 3?

 

[CrushDance]

Its so amusing to see the GT fans being so defensive. Its like theres no possible way for a newcomer racing game lol its already on its 3rd iteration) can't possibly take the crown away from the precious pioneer. I mean, these guys didn't acknowledge Forza because PS2 was so easily destroying the Xbox and GT fans could just ignore the better reviewing game and take about sales if need be.

Then Forza 2 comes out and they can make fun of the graphics and ignore it since theres no mainline GT equivalent on the PS3.

Now, Forza 3 has come out, its perfected everything Turn 10 has been doing for the past 5 years, and it widely being hailed as the best console racing sim. And now that the GT equivalent is going to come out in a few months they're getting more and more defensive again. Whats pathetic is that if all else fails, and even the graphics aren't enough to sway the scores, then they'll just point to sales. Okay sure, theres no doubt that GT5 will sell more, but how much will those fans die inside if it doesn't score as well as Forza 3?



In a discussion about quality and REVIEWS, what possibly made you think that mentioning MW2 was a refrence to sales?

Even the original guy who brought it up used it to troll Forza, but not with sales numbers, but because MW2 will definitely score higher than Resistance 2.

Too bad that GT4, GT HD, GT PSP, GT Prologue have all failed to score even remotely in the 90s. Keep hanging on GT fans, grasp those straws!

So then. KZ2, U2, LBP, U1, etc all are bad games then? I mean they all scored great but didn't recieve high sales. What are you talking about? This is the exact same argument that's been used for all PS3 exclusives to date. That graphics don't matter and that they're wasting their money since the sales won't back them up.

So what then of Forza? Nobody trolled. You're the one who snapped off about some random stuff. I must be an even bigger NFS fan then by your logic. How is it trolling to point out the TRUTH? Maybe you don't like the facts, but that's how it is. I never spoke bad about Forza, what I said was that while it's a great series, it does not compare to those three as they're the biggest in racing games.

But you're right, KZ2 is shit for selling less than Halo.

 

[Vast Inspiration]

So then. KZ2, U2, LBP, U1, etc all are bad games then? I mean they all scored great but didn't recieve high sales. What are you talking about? This is the exact same argument that's been used for all PS3 exclusives to date. That graphics don't matter and that they're wasting their money since the sales won't back them up.

So what then of Forza? Nobody trolled. You're the one who snapped off about some random stuff. I must be an even bigger NFS fan then by your logic. How is it trolling to point out the TRUTH? Maybe you don't like the facts, but that's how it is. I never spoke bad about Forza, what I said was that while it's a great series, it does not compare to those three as they're the biggest in racing games.

But you're right, KZ2 is shit for selling less than Halo.

HOLY SHIT! Dude, what is wrong with you? Try and read your last post and my response a couple of times.

I AM THE ONE thats saying that you should stick to the discussion of quality and reviews. YOU are the one that brought up sales. My lord, and then you turn around and try to sound like I'm the one talking about judging games based on sales. I don't know if you're dense or if this is some deflected troll.

I'll explain this very clearly and easily for you...

Somebody brought up a comparison between MW2 and Resistance 2. This was NOT a sales based comparison, but a quality/review based one.

YOU then turned that comparison in to a sales based one and equated Gran Turismo to MW2 because of the high sales. Thats why I was mocking you.

Now that F3 has come out and we have the reviews and everything. I have a question for gt fans. Do you think it will review better or worse than F3?

That's like asking if Modern Warfare 2 will review better than Resistance 2.

I don't even know what you're implying here. Is GT or Forza supposed to be the equivalent of MW2?

Lets see.

NFS 100mil+
Mario Kart 46mil+
Gran Turismo 50mil+(3.9 million for the "demo")
Forza is a good series but it's nowhere close to those three in terms of reception.

Notice how in that back and forth, YOU are the only one to bring up sales. Doc Evils was trying to troll Forza 3 by equating it to Resistance 2 and equating MW2 to GT5. The flaw in that argument is that if anything, the last few installments of Forza (COD) have been reviewed better than GT (Resistane), making the comparison stupid. Thats why it made sense that Omar Ismail was questioning which game MW2 was being equated with.

But again, YOU came and brought up sales and thats why I laughed at you. At no point in my post did I even remotely hint about equating sales to quality. You talk about facts and bringing up "the truth" is laughable since that only you brought up sales when they were completely off topic to what you were responding to. You're the one trying to make some sort of comment about Forza by bringing up sales of other racing titles. Your rambling about my post are so off base, and they make you sound insane.

 

[Shurs]

Now that F3 has come out and we have the reviews and everything. I have a question for gt fans. Do you think it will review better or worse than F3?

Comparing games straight up by their review scores is kind of foolish. It's not like the same people are always reviewing both games.

 

[Vast Inspiration]

Comparing games straight up by their review scores is kind of foolish. It's not like the same people are always reviewing both games.

Not always, but when it comes to a hardcore genre like "sim racing" theres usually only a handful of people in any organization that review those kinds of titles. Much of the reviews of both games will be don by the same people.

And at the end of the day, its not like theres some sort of conspiracy against on game, so an aggregate score should be comparable between 2 very similar games.

 

[CrushDance]

HOLY SHIT! Dude, what is wrong with you? Try and read your last post and my response a couple of times.

I AM THE ONE thats saying that you should stick to the discussion of quality and reviews. YOU are the one that brought up sales. My lord, and then you turn around and try to sound like I'm the one talking about judging games based on sales. I don't know if you're dense or if this is some deflected troll.

I'll explain this very clearly and easily for you...

Somebody brought up a comparison between MW2 and Resistance 2. This was NOT a sales based comparison, but a quality/review based one.

YOU then turned that comparison in to a sales based one and equated Gran Turismo to MW2 because of the high sales. Thats why I was mocking you.


Notice how in that back and forth, YOU are the only one to bring up sales. Doc Evils was trying to troll Forza 3 by equating it to Resistance 2 and equating MW2 to GT5. The flaw in that argument is that if anything, the last few installments of Forza (COD) have been reviewed better than GT (Resistane), making the comparison stupid. Thats why it made sense that Omar Ismail was questioning which game MW2 was being equated with.

But again, YOU came and brought up sales and thats why I laughed at you. At no point in my post did I even remotely hint about equating sales to quality. You talk about facts and bringing up "the truth" is laughable since that only you brought up sales when they were completely off topic to what you were responding to. You're the one trying to make some sort of comment about Forza by bringing up sales of other racing titles. Your rambling about my post are so off base, and they make you sound insane.

Omar Ismail asked what he could mean by that. I gave an answer, you then jumped to "GT fanboys relying on sales" as a barometer of a good game, while you spoke of only reviews. Which I then pointed out that many PS3 exclusives have gotten good reviews and still yielded low overall sales. Read it again. You're ignoring the sales argument that has been brought up many times for other games.

 

[D'ultimate]

An aggregate score should be comparable but I find it very hard to believe that GT5 will not score as well as if not better than F3. GT5 is the PS3's flagship title. Kaz has been working years on this title and the media has a love affair with him.

Also, while F3 is a great title, it is not without flaws. Some graphically. That is where GT excels. I somehow doubt that GTs' already great driving model coupled with its overabundance of cars, damage, online play and 16 cars on track are somehow gonna be rated inferior to F3.

 

[Shurs]

Not always, but when it comes to a hardcore genre like "sim racing" theres usually only a handful of people in any organization that review those kinds of titles. Much of the reviews of both games will be don by the same people.

And at the end of the day, its not like theres some sort of conspiracy against on game, so an aggregate score should be comparable between 2 very similar games.

Comparing a handheld game (GTPSP) a free downloadable game (GTHD) and Gran Turismo 5 Prologue to the Forza series shows that you're not interested in an apples to apples comparison.

 

[ElNino]

Also, while F3 is a great title, it is not without flaws. Some graphically. That is where GT excels. I somehow doubt that GTs' already great driving model coupled with its overabundance of cars, damage, online play and 16 cars on track are somehow gonna be rated inferior to F3.

See, that's the point (I think). GT will undoubtedly be a terrific looking game graphically, it always has been and it appears that their philosophy is to always keep it that way. So, the assumption is that if it has better graphics than Forza, has more cars (in the game and on the track) and has damage that it has to score better than Forza.

The problem with this assumption is that most of those things (number of cars, damage, etc) don't typically reflect in review scores, but they are more marketing bullet points (which could have an affect on sales). A review score (especially in a racing game) is typically more a product of how it plays, feels and controls... and the experience as a whole. This is where in some people's minds, Forza simply feels better... not by a lot, but still better. So even if GT has more cars, better graphics, more tracks (I believe they are about the same in this), etc. it could still review lower because someone didn't like playing it as much.

In the end, I figure both games will be scored very similarly, probably within a couple of % at most. So really, if you have either system (or both) you are essentially guaranteed to have a terrific racing game to keep you occupied in the near future (or currently).

 

[Vast Inspiration]

Omar Ismail asked what he could mean by that. I gave an answer, you then jumped to "GT fanboys relying on sales" as a barometer of a good game, while you spoke of only reviews. Which I then pointed out that many PS3 exclusives have gotten good reviews and still yielded low overall sales. Read it again. You're ignoring the sales argument that has been brought up many times for other games.

So you admit that I only spoke of reviews and you brought up sales...so then why the hell were you trying to frame it as if I am equating sales to quality? So you so full of shit.
You specificalyl accussed me of implying that sales = quality by bringing up the whole Killzone/Uncharted/LBP argument. So save your breath, you can't wiggle out of your bullshit.

And at least you admit that you brough up sales as your answer, confirming my original hypothesis that GT fans only have sales to fall back on.

Comparing a handheld game (GTPSP) a free downloadable game (GTHD) and Gran Turismo 5 Prologue to the Forza series shows that you're not interested in an apples to apples comparison.

:lol
If ANYONE in this thread was interested in an apples to apples comparison, they wouldn't be comparing a game thats been in development for 2 years to a game thats been in development for 5 with a hugely inflated budget simply because its the one series Sony has that is a guaranteed sales hit.
And you'd think that since Polyphony made all of those titles I mentioned, that they would at least be in the same ballpark in terms of quality. And if you make the argument that only a small number of people are handling those side projects, then that only reinforces my point that GT5 has been in development for far too long with an icnredibly amount of resources put into it.

A review score (especially in a racing game) is typically more a product of how it plays, feels and controls... and the experience as a whole. This is where in some people's minds, Forza simply feels better... not by a lot, but still better. So even if GT has more cars, better graphics, more tracks (I believe they are about the same in this), etc. it could still review lower because someone didn't like playing it as much.

Exacty. What good are more cars (10 variations of the same type) and better graphics, when you're not having fun? The single player structure definitely needs to improve in GT. It was crazy that they actually thought they could get away with removing the career in the PSP version. PD has demonstrated some really poor design philosophies in their past few games. On top of that, the online racing and customization of races will be an important factor. And to top it off, a sim racer needs to have a great reward structure and the ability to really personalize your cars, something that Forza excels in again.

So, I have no doubt that GT will have lots of bullet points, but the jury is still out on whether they can deliver a solid career structure with lots of online options, and car customization that can beat Forza. And this isn't even taking into account the actual driving model.

 

[CrushDance]

So you admit that I only spoke of reviews and you brought up sales...so then why the hell were you trying to frame it as if I am equating sales to quality? So you so full of shit.
You specificalyl accussed me of implying that sales = quality by bringing up the whole Killzone/Uncharted/LBP argument. So save your breath, you can't wiggle out of your bullshit.

And at least you admit that you brough up sales as your answer, confirming my original hypothesis that GT fans only have sales to fall back on.

:lol
If ANYONE in this thread was interested in an apples to apples comparison, they wouldn't be comparing a game thats been in development for 2 years to a game thats been in development for 5 with a hugely inflated budget simply because its the one series Sony has that is a guaranteed sales hit.
And you'd think that since Polyphony made all of those titles I mentioned, that they would at least be in the same ballpark in terms of quality. And if you make the argument that only a small number of people are handling those side projects, then that only reinforces my point that GT5 has been in development for far too long with an icnredibly amount of resources put into it.

You are really insane to keep missing the point.

So you admit that I only spoke of reviews and you brought up sales...so then why the hell were you trying to frame it as if I am equating sales to quality? So you so full of shit.
You specificalyl accussed me of implying that sales = quality by bringing up the whole Killzone/Uncharted/LBP argument. So save your breath, you can't wiggle out of your bullshit.

And at least you admit that you brough up sales as your answer, confirming my original hypothesis that GT fans only have sales to fall back on.

:lol
If ANYONE in this thread was interested in an apples to apples comparison, they wouldn't be comparing a game thats been in development for 2 years to a game thats been in development for 5 with a hugely inflated budget simply because its the one series Sony has that is a guaranteed sales hit.
And you'd think that since Polyphony made all of those titles I mentioned, that they would at least be in the same ballpark in terms of quality. And if you make the argument that only a small number of people are handling those side projects, then that only reinforces my point that GT5 has been in development for far too long with an icnredibly amount of resources put into it.

Exacty. What good are more cars (10 variations of the same type) and better graphics, when you're not having fun? The single player structure definitely needs to improve in GT. It was crazy that they actually thought they could get away with removing the career in the PSP version. PD has demonstrated some really poor design philosophies in their past few games. On top of that, the online racing and customization of races will be an important factor. And to top it off, a sim racer needs to have a great reward structure and the ability to really personalize your cars, something that Forza excels in again.

So, I have no doubt that GT will have lots of bullet points, but the jury is still out on whether they can deliver a solid career structure with lots of online options, and car customization that can beat Forza. And this isn't even taking into account the actual driving model.

Case in point.

 

[Vast Inspiration]

You are really insane.

Oh please, after the bullshit troll, the accusatory rambling, and subsequent back peddling you displayed on this very page, you really shouldn't be talking.

Let me demolish you once again.

So then. KZ2, U2, LBP, U1, etc all are bad games then? I mean they all scored great but didn't recieve high sales. What are you talking about?

But you're right, KZ2 is shit for selling less than Halo.

You clearly accuse me of equating sales to quality.

Omar Ismail asked what he could mean by that. I gave an answer, while you spoke of only reviews. Which I then pointed out that many PS3 exclusives have gotten good reviews and still yielded low overall sales. Read it again.

And then you back peddle and outright LIE and say that you were only trying to say that quality does not lead to sales. You are so full of shit. You got called out for it. Now give it a rest.

And this isn't even taking into account your terrible troll of trying to demean Forza by saying its not comparable to the "big three" because of sales. You're laughable.

 

[CrushDance]

Oh please, after the bullshit troll, the accusatory rambling, and subsequent back peddling you displayed on this very page, you really shouldn't be talking.

Let me demolish you once again.


You clearly accuse me of equating sales to quality.

And then you back peddle and outright LIE and say that you were only trying to say that quality does not lead to sales. You are so full of shit. You got called out for it. Now give it a rest.

And this isn't even taking into account your terrible troll of trying to demean Forza by saying its not comparable to the "big three" because of sales. You're laughable.

When I'm done with U2, I'll come back and explain this to you. Again.

 

[TheFatOne]

When I'm done with U2, I'll come back and explain this to you. Again.

The classic I'm playing another game so I'm to busy to reply excuse. I'm on to you CrushDance

 

[Vast Inspiration]

When I'm done with U2, I'll come back and explain this to you. Again.

No need. I could not make your outright lies and hypocrisy any clearer, even to a 5 year old.
You already tried to back peddle, nothing more will help.

 

[D'ultimate]

The problem with this assumption is that most of those things (number of cars, damage, etc) don't typically reflect in review scores, but they are more marketing bullet points (which could have an affect on sales). A review score (especially in a racing game) is typically more a product of how it plays, feels and controls... and the experience as a whole. This is where in some people's minds, Forza simply feels better... not by a lot, but still better. So even if GT has more cars, better graphics, more tracks (I believe they are about the same in this), etc. it could still review lower because someone didn't like playing it as much.

You're giving reviewers too much credit. We shall see.