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[watership]

The 4players comparison is finished. FM3 won.
http://www.4players.de/4players.php...48/70329/Gran_Turismo_5_vs_Forza_Motorsport_3

Anyone willing to translate? Site uses images instead of txt for their articles. That's just crazy.

 

[Painraze]

That's not necessarily a good thing though design-wise.

See: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/extra-credits/2487-The-Skinner-Box

Never saw that. Good video.

 

[LittleJohnny]

FM3 lost to Prolgue though, we've had our answer for months.

:lol

IMO, the environments in Forza 3 have the edge while GT5 has an edge with the cars, specifically reflections:

 

[beast786]

A rewind feature (which is optional and hurts your leaderboard standing) doesn't take away from any of that. If you want to "suffer" through the game, then have at it. Enjoy your accomplishments. But there is no reason why you should be concerned with how others are playing the game.

I'm sure one can learn to drive a racing sim on Forza 3 just as easily as GT5 and feel the same reward... in fact, a rewind feature is a very good tool to help newbie driving sim players get a handle on how to play the game without having to restart a race every 2 minutes.

And that is exactly why I said earlier that I would like to see it in a Practice mode.

It is not how I care about how others are playing the game. But, the way developer want to reward people who have spend extra time for it. . It is a decision made by developer to reward people for spending more time. Again, if you want to learn then try the rewind feature in practice ring.

Why not have a rewind feature in every game like PoP?

Again, I am not saying its right or wrong either way. All I am saying is that there is a good reason for not having it.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Both games are pretty close but I have no doubt that GT has an edge in accuracy because PD goes the extra mile with this kind of stuff. GT5 Nürburgring is so sick!

And didn't we have the same Laguna Seca graphics comparison already? :lol

I don't doubt that GT has better accuracy, I'm not questioning that, I'm questioning the validity of the actual test, it seems it's fundamentally flawed. There's too many variables to actually determine which is truly more accurate:

1.the accuracy of the course

2.the accuracy of the cars

3.the players experience with each games

4.the use of hardware (wheels are different)

Heck, even how the game calculates the start and finish could add milliseconds to times.

To me it just seems that all the results are too close to determine whether one is clearly more accurate.

 

[ShapeGSX]

IMO, the environments in Forza 3 have the edge while GT5 has an edge with the cars, specifically reflections:

I wear polarized sunglasses while racing, which eliminates reflections. :lol

 

[iam220]

Again, I am not saying it is a right or wrong decision. But I do believe that there is a good reason behind it. LIke it or not.

Well the reason seems to be design philosophy. I just don't agree with it. I think it can be done in a way that satisfies both the grinding whores and those who like to get all their content out of the box.

RE: Laguna Seca

Except that both GT5 and Forza 3 are way off the real times ....
Tsukaba is very close though ... but the entire comparison is kinda bs. The variance in time can be due to many things, inaccurate tracks, inaccurate physics model, driving skill. There's really no way to tell which of these factors are causing the discrepancies (or in what combination). Hypothetically, if we had the opportunity to compare a GT5 car vs F3 car on the same laser scanned track then that would probably be more telling as to who has the superior physics model.

 

[enzo_gt]

RE: Laguna Seca

Only thing that matters in the end.

Such minute differences in an average hardly mean much. Take another sample and Forza 3 might end up being "better." This never was a good comparison even way back when Top Gear and stuff did it, and it still is inaccurate now.

 

[antiloop]

IMO, the environments in Forza 3 have the edge while GT5 has an edge with the cars, specifically reflections:

Both environments look like shit there though. :lol

 

[Windom Earle]

No, it's very important, but not "the only thing" that matters.

I could build a $5 game where you pilot around a lifeless car on a lifeless track yet still record a lap time identical to GT5/Forza 3.

I'm not understating the importance of real life = game life but I disagree that it's the only thing that matters.

Physics go hand in hand, doh

 

[Chrange]

Except that both GT5 and Forza 3 are way off the real times ....

Even if absolutely everything was perfectly modeled in the games, the times gotten in the games should still be faster than the real life times. There's no fear of wrecking the car (or killing yourself) so drivers can be far more aggressive. Unless someone's driven the absolute perfect line in real life, games are always going to have that edge.

 

[iam220]

Even if absolutely everything was perfectly modeled in the games, the times gotten in the games should still be faster than the real life times. There's no fear of wrecking the car (or killing yourself) so drivers can be far more aggressive. Unless someone's driven the absolute perfect line in real life, games are always going to have that edge.

In theory, yes. Although, I'm convinced that the people who actually post world record times have no fear :lol They are in fact driving the best possible line.

 

[ShapeGSX]

Even if absolutely everything was perfectly modeled in the games, the times gotten in the games should still be faster than the real life times. There's no fear of wrecking the car (or killing yourself) so drivers can be far more aggressive. Unless someone's driven the absolute perfect line in real life, games are always going to have that edge.

Especially on Laguna Seca. It takes an iron will to brake late on the hill before the corkscrew.

 

[Painraze]

Again, if you want to learn then try the rewind feature in practice ring.

Game design wise, no one wants to put hours upon hours into practice sessions. Those are one step above tutorials. I guess you are against using the rewind feature to go through the single player campaign? The only complaint I can see is someone gets achievements for going through the campaign while using rewind but, to be honest, most racing sim fans probably are looking at clean lap times over single player achievements.

Why not have a rewind feature in every game like PoP?

Because not every game is setup like a racing game. Most of the time when you fail or die you are set back 20-30 seconds tops. In a racing sim, depending on the setup, you could be set back 5, 10, 15+ minutes.

 

[Shaneus]

And that is exactly why I said earlier that I would like to see it in a Practice mode.

It is not how I care about how others are playing the game. But, the way developer want to reward people who have spend extra time for it. . It is a decision made by developer to reward people for spending more time. Again, if you want to learn then try the rewind feature in practice ring.

Why not have a rewind feature in every game like PoP?

Again, I am not saying its right or wrong either way. All I am saying is that there is a good reason for not having it.

Ultimately, isn't the best reward being able to drive better? Everyone's making the assumption that once you use rewind, you'll always use it. I can assure you that even though I started off using it quite frequently, I barely use it at all now.


I still love all the paranoia and FUD about that feature despite the fact that Forza 3 has been out for over a year. Shit, I know better than to rag on a feature of any particular game without trying it first, yet many people don't seem to grasp how Turn 10 handled rewind.

If you don't know how rewind works, you've clearly never played Forza 3. And if you've never played it, what the fuck are you doing in this thread other than providing ill-informed arguments?

(only the first para is directed toward you, beast )

 

[Absinthe]

Thanks for the link, some good comparisons in there. This shot shows the difference in environments between GT5 and Forza 3, imo Forza 3 looks a lot more organic, the trees in GT5 don't look that good:

:lol
Maybe my problem is I have a passion for cars, not a passion for trees...

 

[travisbickle]

You're comparing Laguna Seca track detail? There's fuck all there, it's a barren desert!!!

 

[les papillons sexuels]

And that is exactly why I said earlier that I would like to see it in a Practice mode.

It is not how I care about how others are playing the game. But, the way developer want to reward people who have spend extra time for it. . It is a decision made by developer to reward people for spending more time. Again, if you want to learn then try the rewind feature in practice ring.

Why not have a rewind feature in every game like PoP?

Again, I am not saying its right or wrong either way. All I am saying is that there is a good reason for not having it.

If PoP stands for prince of persia then it does have a rewind function and I'm not sure what your argument is here.

If you're talking about platforming games in general, most games tend to place the player extremely close to the area he last fell, or depending on the level design, in such a way that it doesn't take long for the player to return to the last location, usually 30 seconds top.

Most racing games also have a 'reset' function that places the player back on the course, and the complaints are far and few between.

:lol
Maybe my problem is I have a passion for cars, not a passion for trees...

well some people have a passion for racing, in which case the track and environment play a heavy role...

 

[Apath]

Because not every game is setup like a racing game. Most of the time when you fail or die you are set back 20-30 seconds tops. In a racing sim, depending on the setup, you could be set back 5, 10, 15+ minutes.

And this is why I thought the rewind feature was ingenious. In Forza 1, races sometimes had you investing a lot of time into them, only to screw up one final turn. Rather than starting over, people get frustrated and turn the game off. Why should going through the single player campaign progression be a chore? Why should people have to play something they find tedious over, and over, and over, and over until gotten right to get to the part of the game they enjoy?

Multiplayer and time trials should not have a replay option, but the actual single player career mode absolutely should or at the very least give the player a one-time option to enable or disable it.

 

[Absinthe]

well some people have a passion for racing, in which case the track and environment play a heavy role...

So do physics, which from what most people have stated, gt5 is the best at on consoles.

I have both Forza and GT5, they're both good games, and there is no excuse for polyphony not remaking the tracks from gt4. But the whole tree comments are just ridiculous to me.

 

[ExtraKr1spy]

The Laguna lap comparisons look interesting.

Between fastest laps and average there about a 3 second difference with GT5 and 6 tenths in Forza 3.

It says 3 clean laps but is that 3 clean total laps or 3 clean laps back to back to back?

 

[sajj316]

So do physics, which from what most people have stated, gt5 is the best at on consoles.

I have both Forza and GT5, they're both good games, and there is no excuse for polyphony not remaking the tracks from gt4. But the whole tree comments are just ridiculous to me.

This is what makes the comparison silly. Are we really comparing an up-scaled GT4 track with the equivalent FM3 track? In the famous words of The Miz, "Really?, Really??"

 

[szaromir]

This is what makes the comparison silly. Are we really comparing an up-scaled GT4 track with the equivalent FM3 track? In the famous words of The Miz, "Really?, Really??"

Whose fault is it that PS2 assets found their way onto AAA PS3 game 5 years into the generation? FM3's?
Laguna Seca is among worse looking tracks in FM3, like all those imported from FM2.

 

[Kentpaul]

Forza = the great meal that even looks good to eat

GT = The great meal with a hair in it, sure it tastes good untill that hair is half down your throte.

 

[sajj316]

Whose fault is it that PS2 assets found their way onto AAA PS3 game 5 years into the generation? FM3's?
Laguna Seca is among worse looking tracks in FM3, like all those imported from FM2.

I don't deny that its silly for PD to just bring the tracks over w/o upgrades like with the "standard" cars. Its just furthers the silliness by doing the FM3 versus GT5 comparison of this barren track.

PD should have scrapped this "standard versus premium" crap and just have said from the beginning that we've put GT4 in GT5 as well

 

[hamchan]

As a racing newbie I used the Forza 3 rewind feature nearly every corner ><

I can't decide whether or not I like it more. I'm certainly trying harder in GT5 in fear of screwing up.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I don't deny that its silly for PD to just bring the tracks over w/o upgrades like with the "standard" cars. Its just furthers the silliness by doing the FM3 versus GT5 comparison of this barren track.

PD should have scrapped this "standard versus premium" crap and just have said from the beginning that we've put GT4 in GT5 as well

This is a comparision thread of GT5 and Forza 3. If it's in GT5 it's fair game to compare it.

 

[Shaneus]

I don't deny that its silly for PD to just bring the tracks over w/o upgrades like with the "standard" cars. Its just furthers the silliness by doing the FM3 versus GT5 comparison of this barren track.

No silliness... we're comparing one track from a released game to another track from a released game.

So, with all these imported cars/tracks from older games, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what PD actually *was* doing? I honestly can't see five years worth of work in this title. Not in the slightest.

 

[brain_stew]

It is a matter of opinion.

If there are short cuts then it takes away the satisfaction. Even though you did it the hard way.
.

If you're mentally broken, yes. For the rest of us, having the option available only enhances the experience, being forced to suffer through shit just to boost some other guys epeen and ego, is frankly, horrific game design.

None of the sense of achievement is diminished just because your friend didn't have to suffer through the same stupidity, the experience is wholly the same.

No silliness... we're comparing one track from a released game to another track from a released game.

So, with all these imported cars/tracks from older games, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what PD actually *was* doing? I honestly can't see five years worth of work in this title. Not in the slightest.

Obsessing of the shade of silver used on the safety belt buckles in some random car, which you'll never see once during gameplay, anyway. Who cares if you're going to see some hideous 2D trees and flat, low resolution ground textures for 90% of the time you're actually playing the game, if a tweak can improve the bullshit generator mode, then its top priority.

Gameplay graphics weren't the focus of Polyphony's work (worse, they were actively neglected), its as clear as day for anyone to see.

 

[CrunchinJelly]

FM3 lost to Prolgue though, we've had our answer for months.

:lol

The irony is that GT5 is actually technically inferior to Prologue. :lol

 

[iam220]

I honestly can't see five years worth of work in this title. Not in the slightest.

Well .. in PDs defence, the physics are quite good and all the cars have a unique feel to them. No small task considering how many cars there are.

I do agree that they've spend too much time modeling cars though. Especially since all the detail is not fully appreciated due to the ps3's lack of power.

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

I started out with 720p because the game looked too blurry to me in 1080p (didn't know about QAA back then). After hearing Quaz's coments I tried 1080p with sharpen and the image quality is very good. I would recommend it to people with 1080p sets any day.

I can't see the difference in sharpness, there looks to be more aliasing though.

Still has that QAA look about it.

 

[brain_stew]

The irony is that GT5 is actually technically inferior to Prologue. :lol

The sad reality. Adding all those half arsed effects has downgraded the overall experience, they should be no where near the game in their current state. If something doesn't work without severely downgrading the gameplay experience and producing horrific artefacts, then ditch it or rework it. The current solution isn't acceptable and its quite literally the worst option available.

 

[sajj316]

No silliness... we're comparing one track from a released game to another track from a released game.

So, with all these imported cars/tracks from older games, anyone want to hazard a guess as to what PD actually *was* doing? I honestly can't see five years worth of work in this title. Not in the slightest.

It had a $60 million budget so let your imaginations run wild!

ok, ok ... compare away. I'm going back to playing GT4+GT6rologue now ...

 

[brain_stew]

Well .. in PDs defence, the physics are quite good and all the cars have a unique feel to them. No small task considering how many cars there are.

I do agree that they've spend too much time modeling cars though. Especially since all the detail is not fully appreciated due to the ps3's lack of power.

On the brightside, GT5 on PS4 should be awesome!

Just tesellate off the few geometric edges still present in the photmode models and voila, you've got perfect PS4 assets.

 

[KaYotiX]

As a racing newbie I used the Forza 3 rewind feature nearly every corner ><

I can't decide whether or not I like it more. I'm certainly trying harder in GT5 in fear of screwing up.

rewind was a great feature for the simple fact that if i messed up on the last lap of a 40 lap race i can rewind and not have to do the ENTIRE thing over.

 

[H_Prestige]

FM3 lost to Prolgue though, we've had our answer for months.

:lol

GT5 also loses to Prologue, if those framerate and tearing numbers are correct.

 

[ExtraKr1spy]

rewind was a great feature for the simple fact that if i messed up on the last lap of a 40 lap race i can rewind and not have to do the ENTIRE thing over.

Helps to remember there's a rewind feature...

I've restarted a few endurance races in FM3 because I forgot about the rewind :/

 

[iam220]

On the brightside, GT5 on PS4 should be awesome!

I honestly think that was their plan all along. They wanted a head start come next gen.

 

[Blimblim]

Seeing these tearing numbers makes me want to go and buy GT5 just to check it myself, because it's rather unbelievable.
And before I'm accused of whatever, I don't like sim racers, especially when they put so much emphasis on the driving side instead of the actual race (and that goes for both GT and Forza, both games are a bore to me).

 

[sajj316]

I honestly think that was their plan all along. They wanted a head start come next gen.

Kaz said it himself. PS3 limited GT5. Not surprised. However, Kaz should have worked within the constraints.

 

[Arnie]

Some of the comments in this thread are beyond bitter. I've been playing GT5 for days and have actually been one of the only ones to post a legitimate, thoughtful comparison between the two, however it didn't surprise me that most glistened over it in favour of these petty screenshot wars and list comparisons.

People saying Prologue was a superior game to Forza 3 honestly have no foothold to stand on. Excluding the car models themselves, Forza 3 is superior to every aspect of Prologue, and this is coming from someone who bought the Prologue bundle with his PS3, a long time GT fan.

Quite simply however I have to retract certain aspects about my previous analysis, I actually now prefer Forza 3s car physics over GT5s. I commend PD for improving them immensely (they were the most disappointing aspect of Prologue for me) but slotting Forza 3 back in this weekend was a breath of fresh air. All assists off, Forza's cars just feel more alive, at times GTs just decide to randomly oversteer, and it's definitely a problem with the game, I've had a close friend comment on it too. With Forza I can manage to wrestle the car into staying where I want it.

That's not to say I think GT5 is a bad game, I'm loving it, but after the time it took to come out, I'm shocked and frankly disappointed that I can have a much better (in my opinion) driving experience playing Forza.

 

[Redbeard]

Some of the comments in this thread are beyond bitter. I've been playing GT5 for days and have actually been one of the only ones to post a legitimate, thoughtful comparison between the two, however it didn't surprise me that most glistened over it in favour of these petty screenshot wars and list comparisons.

People saying Prologue was a superior game to Forza 3 honestly have no foothold to stand on. Excluding the car models themselves, Forza 3 is superior to every aspect of Prologue, and this is coming from someone who bought the Prologue bundle with his PS3, a long time GT fan.

Quite simply however I have to retract certain aspects about my previous analysis, I actually now prefer Forza 3s car physics over GT5s. I commend PD for improving them immensely (they were the most disappointing aspect of Prologue for me) but slotting Forza 3 back in this weekend was a breath of fresh air. All assists off, Forza's cars just feel more alive, at times GTs just decide to randomly oversteer, and it's definitely a problem with the game, I've had a close friend comment on it too. With Forza I can manage to wrestle the car into staying where I want it.

That's not to say I think GT5 is a bad game, I'm loving it, but after the time it took to come out, I'm shocked and frankly disappointed that I can have a much better (in my opinion) driving experience playing Forza.

It's understandable that some would prefer Forza's innacurate physics model. It's more of an arcade game than a sim, so if you want a game where most of the driving is done for you, then play Forza.

If, however, you want an accurate sim that represents real driving physics that do not hold your hand, GT is the only way to go at the moment on consoles.

 

[hamchan]

rewind was a great feature for the simple fact that if i messed up on the last lap of a 40 lap race i can rewind and not have to do the ENTIRE thing over.

That's the thing though, if you screw up on the last lap of a race then you have failed the endurance test right? Feels more rewarding to know I legitimately beat a race, to me anyways.

 

[iam220]

Kaz said it himself. PS3 limited GT5. Not surprised. However, Kaz should have worked within the constraints.

It seems then, that he did what was best for the future of the series. Too bad GT5 had to suffer because of it.

 

[Arnie]

It's understandable that some would prefer Forza's innacurate physics model. It's more of an arcade game than a sim, so if you want a game where most of the driving is done for you, then play Forza.

If, however, you want an accurate sim that represents real driving physics that do not hold your hand, GT is the only way to go at the moment on consoles.

It's exactly these sort of comments I was referring to. Idiotic, ill-informed nonsense.

 

[Redbeard]

It's exactly these sort of comments I was referring to. Idiotic, ill-informed nonsense.

Except what I said is completely true. You do not prefer Gran Turismo's more accurate, less forgiving driving model.

That's fine, not everyone is looking for a game that handles in an accurate manner. Games like Burnout are very popular for this reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVkxSZoHbYY

 

[Stallion Free]

That's the thing though, if you screw up on the last lap of a race then you have failed the endurance test right? Feels more rewarding to know I legitimately beat a race, to me anyways.

You know, you can just not press the rewind button and remind yourself that you are a goddamn god.

The rest of us will play the game in a way that we enjoy it and doesn't raise our blood pressure.

 

[skyfinch]

That's the thing though, if you screw up on the last lap of a race then you have failed the endurance test right? Feels more rewarding to know I legitimately beat a race, to me anyways.

That's fine, and it is rewarding, but not everyone has the time to do a 40 lap race over.

What Turn 10 should have done is put the "rewind" option in the assists menu, for people who want to have it turned on in-game or not.

 

[Arnie]

Except what I said is completely true. You do not prefer Gran Turismo's more accurate, less forgiving driving model.

That's fine, not everyone is looking for a game that handles in an accurate manner. Games like Burnout are very popular for this reason.

Yes but your condescending use of exaggeration is inflammatory to say the least. You are acting as if nobody can have a legitimate opinion other than yourself, even if they back it up.

I've been playing the GT games all my life, I've owned every one, GT5 is not as good a sim as Forza, in my opinion. They both feel excellent to me, although little faults in 5s driving model annoy me, whereas I feel Forza 3 has it spot on. I've already expressed my full feelings on the game in both threads and by and large they were overwhelmingly positive, but pretending Forza is an arcade racer with no basis in simulation racing is just being a dick.

You come across as desperate when your posts make so little sense. Formulate a proper argument as to why GTs physics are superior to Forzas.