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Here it can be seen clearly.

http://www.abload.de/img/forzamotorsport4_careeh7bj.gif

Thanks. I see it there indeed.

 

[cajunator]

Are people seriously arguing over reflection maps? Just play the fucking games. They are basically the same.

 

[Xun]

I don't think a large majority of people in this thread like games anymore.

Arguing about reflections is the "game", not the actual game itself.

 

[Kolgar]

If a racing game strives for realism as hard as, say, GT5 does, then I appreciate when that game shows me real-time reflections of the road and other cars on the sides of these beautiful shiny monsters.

If continual graphical advancements weren't desired or necessary, we'd all still be playing games in monochrome with pixels as big as our heads.

 

[cajunator]

And yet GT5 cut corners by using last gen models for some cars. Neither game is perfect or even close to it. At this point it's just preferences.

 

[Loudninja]

Are people seriously arguing over reflection maps? Just play the fucking games. They are basically the same.

This is what the topic is for.

Not sure why you are complaining.

 

[Metalmurphy]

And yet GT5 cut corners by using last gen models for some cars. Neither game is perfect or even close to it. At this point it's just preferences.

That's not cutting corners, that's choosing not to cut an entire museum of legacy cars...w

 

[Dibbz]

So basically it goes:

"Forza doesn't have real time reflections on cars other than the players"
"No it does have real time reflections on everything"
Prove that only reflections work on players car
"Why are you complaining about reflections? Just play the game!"

lol you guys crack me up.

 

[NullPointer]

I think the only real answer here is to play PGR2 and Shift 2. ;P

 

[brotkasten]

So basically it goes:

"Forza doesn't have real time reflections on cars other than the players"
"No it does have real time reflections on everything"
Prove that only reflections work on players car
"Why are you complaining about reflections? Just play the game!"

lol you guys crack me up.

Hey, you're unbanned! Good to have you back.

 

[paskowitz]

So basically it goes:

"Forza doesn't have real time reflections on cars other than the players"
"No it does have real time reflections on everything"
Prove that only reflections work on players car
"Why are you complaining about reflections? Just play the game!"

lol you guys crack me up.

And he is back.

 

[TUROK]

If T10 use that effects in the player car and not in the rest it has nothing to do with reflection tricks but degrading the graphic quality to keep a fixed famerate.

Considering reflection tricks would help keep a framerate steady, it definitely has everything to do with it.

So basically it goes:

"Forza doesn't have real time reflections on cars other than the players"
"No it does have real time reflections on everything"
Prove that only reflections work on players car
"Why are you complaining about reflections? Just play the game!"

lol you guys crack me up.

Apparently you have a reputation, but I'll bite anyways. All the cars have reflections. The AI cars just use simpler ones to keep the framerate steady. Got it? Shouldn't be too hard to understand. Let me know if you're still confused, that way I can space out every line to make it easier on you.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Considering reflection tricks would help keep a framerate steady, it definitely has everything to do with it.

Apparently you have a reputation, but I'll bite anyways. All the cars have reflections. The AI cars just use simpler ones to keep the framerate steady. Got it? Shouldn't be too hard to understand. Let me know if you're still confused, that way I can space out every line to make it easier on you.

He knows that already, hence the "real time".

 

[Dibbz]

Considering reflection tricks would help keep a framerate steady, it definitely has everything to do with it.

Apparently you have a reputation, but I'll bite anyways. All the cars have reflections. The AI cars just use simpler ones to keep the framerate steady. Got it? Shouldn't be too hard to understand. Let me know if you're still confused, that way I can space out every line to make it easier on you.

Was I asking a question?

 

[nib95]

The biggest win for GT5 against F4 (and 3) is that it does actually have a pure simulation mode and tries its ut-most to stay true to the term. With all of Forza's emphasis on realism and simulation, it actually isn't one due to the numerous forced assists that exist ironically in 'simulation' settings. That coupled with the lack of 900 degree steering compatibility really detract from its sim aspects.

Truth is, for those who want the closest thing to simulation racing or driving on consoles, along with full steering wheel support, control and accuracy, you pretty much (at present anyway) have no choice but to go with GT5.

Here's hoping they patch this stuff in F4, though based on F3, I'm not sure they'll patch out forced assists, though 900 degree steering I'm hopeful for.

Just glad I held out before putting down my hard earned on the GT2 and Club Sport Pedals.

 

[eso76]

To me that seems a simpler environment texture not a simplified real-time cube map.

it is a generic environment map, i pointed that out in the forza thread long ago.

You can see that in photomode for example, only when focusing on AI cars the generic reflections are swapped with a real cube map of the environment.

GT5 uses a different trick, though. There's only one cube env map, which is generated according to your car's position and used on every car, so when you pass under a bridge, the same bridge is shown, at the same time, on all other cars, regardless of where they are.

Of course, since you can only see the cars near you, reflections look more or less accurate anyway; if you're in a tunnel, for example, chances are cars you can see are also in the tunnel, so it works.

In the end it's the same, both games only generate one cube map.
Forza trick allows T10 to use the framebuffer trick for hood view though.

 

[adelante]

Forza trick allows T10 to use the framebuffer trick for hood view though.

Yeah surprised GT5 didn't adopt this, what with so many racing games using that same trick. Blew my mind seeing other cars being reflected on the hood for the first time in PGR4

 

[flyinpiranha]

That's not cutting corners, that's choosing not to cut an entire museum of legacy cars...w

So cutting corners is keeping a constistent framerate with nonplayer car reflections taking a hit but including last generation cars in your game that look terrible compared to others is NOT cutting corners and "preserving a legacy"?

GT5 uses a different trick, though. There's only one cube env map, which is generated according to your car's position and used on every car, so when you pass under a bridge, the same bridge is shown, at the same time, on all other cars, regardless of where they are.

That's not cutting corners, that's just preserving the legacy of bridges.

Just glad I held out before putting down my hard earned on the GT2 and Club Sport Pedals.

Those would make your precious GT5 more enjoyable too. But I know you really have no interest in F4, in fact you only posted in the thread once Iknos with a total of 2 races on a freezing 360 started bitching about assists.

 

[Majanew]

So basically it goes:

"Forza doesn't have real time reflections on cars other than the players"
"No it does have real time reflections on everything"
Prove that only reflections work on players car
"Why are you complaining about reflections? Just play the game!"

lol you guys crack me up.

You'd have something if all that was from one person.

 

[Angst]

So cutting corners is keeping a constistent framerate with nonplayer car reflections taking a hit but including last generation cars in your game that look terrible compared to others is NOT cutting corners and "preserving a legacy"?



That's not cutting corners, that's just preserving the legacy of bridges.



Those would make your precious GT5 more enjoyable too. But I know you really have no interest in F4, in fact you only posted in the thread once Iknos with a total of 2 races on a freezing 360 started bitching about assists.

nib95 =! iknos

I sense much bitterness in your post.

And the standard cars aren't there for performance purposes. We frequently race with 16 premium cars on track and it does no difference for the frame rate. If you talk about dev time, that's another thing.

 

[SmokyDave]

I sense much bitterness in your post.

Was it the 'your precious GT5' bit that gave it away?

 

[Angst]

Was it the 'your precious GT5' bit that gave it away?

I don't know how familiar you are with internet sarcasm (I for one am an expert)...

 

[Metalmurphy]

So cutting corners is keeping a constistent framerate with nonplayer car reflections taking a hit but including last generation cars in your game that look terrible compared to others is NOT cutting corners and "preserving a legacy"?

That's not cutting corners, that's just preserving the legacy of bridges.

Did I mention Forza in my post? No, I did not. Stop seeing every fucking post as an attack to your sweet sweet Forza. Jesus...

Spoiler

And yes, that's a joke about your "precious GT5" comment.

 

[Gafapastismo]

Wow, seems Forza is the real pre baked simulator

• Lighting

• Shadows

• Reflections

• Damage

Spoiler

It's a joke

 

[Dibbz]

So cutting corners is keeping a constistent framerate with nonplayer car reflections taking a hit but including last generation cars in your game that look terrible compared to others is NOT cutting corners and "preserving a legacy"?

90% of the standard cars look great. I'm not surprised Forza fans keep going back to mentioning standards. Apart from customization in Forza there is nothing of value to sim racers that would make them choose it over GT.

 

[Angst]

Wow, seems Forza is the real pre baked simulator

• Lighting

• Shadows

• Reflections

• Damage

Don't forget:

• Handling

• Race result

• Metascore (thanks to Pepto)

Spoiler

And if anyone takes this seriously you need to get a sense of humour

90% of the standard cars look great. I'm not surprised Forza fans keep going back to mentioning standards. Apart from customization in Forza there is nothing of value to sim racers that would make them choose it over GT.

Well... I'd like the rivals system from F4 in GT, it sounds like a really good feature. And lots of the cars in F4 I'd like to see in GT too.

 

[kazinova]

God, I love this thread.

It's like the Mos Eisley of threads.

 

[Pepto]

Don't forget:

• Handling

• Race result

Also:

• Metascore

 

[flyinpiranha]

Actually me and nib go back a ways for nerdy internet arguments over superfluous things, so that "precious" was just a friendly jab.

As for this:

Did I mention Forza in my post? No, I did not. Stop seeing every fucking post as an attack to your sweet sweet Forza. Jesus...

Spoiler

And yes, that's a joke about your "precious GT5" comment.

"Sweet, Sweet Forza Jesus." I like that.

 

[Angst]

"Sweet, Sweet Forza Jesus." I like that.

 

[Shaneus]

"Sweet, Sweet Forza Jesus." I like that.

aka Dan?

 

[nib95]

What? I've posted numerous times in the F4 threads and nearly all have been extremely enthusiastic. My only main concern was forced assists (the reason I lost interest in F3 very quickly and prefered F2, which seemed to have more realistic handling, though not without flaws). There was mention of it being a glitch that would be patched, shame it hasn't been yet. Honestly though the attacks are comical.

Do you know how many PM's I've exchanged with people to buy a second hand GT2 and pedals? Why would anyone invest so much money on kit for a game they weren't interested in, especially when I already have a G25 and Microsoft wheel? Pure and simply it was because of F4, but not with forced assists. Just not worth it then.

If Drugstore_cowboy had responded to my PM I might have had the GT2 and F4 today, instead of just a demo to test it with. But till the assists thing gets sorted, I think the Microsoft Wheel will have to suffice.

 

[Snubbers]

Do you know how many PM's I've exchanged with people to buy a second hand GT2 and pedals? Why would anyone invest so much money on kit for a game they weren't interested in, especially when I already have a G25 and Microsoft wheel? Pure and simply it was because of F4, but not with forced assists. Just not worth it then.

Playing FM on a Fanatec wheel is glorious..

That's all I can say..

If you genuinely are that kind of person that mentally over-reacts and obsesses over what is such a minor thing, that is vastly swamped out by all the rest of the gloriousness, then I feel sorry for you..

Mind you, when I tell you that anything other then the most hardcore PC Sims have lots of 'assists' hidden in the physics engines that allow us mere mortals to become driving gods (to differing degrees), how do you deal with that?

Spoiler

Yes, of course that's a bit tongue in cheek, I can't make my mind up if this guy is one of those that would buy a game they don't like just to try and make their negativity apparently more valid

 

[The Stealth Fox]

The lack of steering assist is a steering assist!

Or something.

 

[nib95]

I will still eventually buy F4 (after a slew of other games I'm now more interested in), but I don't think it justifies such an expensive steering wheel set up personally (unless you play a lot of PC sim racers too or don't already have a G25/G27). You're not getting close to full use for it, and it's not like my G25 is lacking for everything else non 360 related.

And yes, it does annoy me greatly that there are noticeable forced assists in play. It's not even about making driving easier or harder. I just want the game to do exactly what I tell it to do dammit. Having a Fantec wheel with forced assists imo is the equivalent of having a Logitech G9 mouse and G19 keyboard with auto aim.

Bear in mind, the Fanatec set up can set you back anywhere from 250 to 500 Euro's (depending on whether you get the club sport package). And for that kind of money, you ought to be expecting full accurate control. Especially when Fanatec have their own top of the line Forza 4 branded line. Smh.


And yes, I am bitter about it. I want to have full steering control with F4 so I have a proper excuse to go out and buy a Fanatec wheel/pedals. Just like I want the iPhone 4S to have a bigger screen or the Nexus Galaxy to not have such a crappy GPU, again, so I can buy one or the other instead of having to wait longer for a new worthy phone. Le sigh...

.

 

[Snubbers]

I will still eventually buy F4 (after a slew of other games I'm now more interested in), but I don't think it justifies such an expensive steering wheel set up personally (unless you play a lot of PC sim racers too or don't already have a G25/G27). You're not getting close to full use for it, and it's not like my G25 is lacking for everything else non 360 related.

And yes, it does annoy me greatly that there are noticeable forced assists in play. It's not even about making driving easier or harder. I just want the game to do exactly what I tell it to do dammit. Having a Fantec wheel with forced assists imo is the equivalent of having a Logitech G9 mouse and G19 keyboard with auto aim.

Bear in mind, the Fanatec set up can set you back anywhere from 250 to 500 Euro's (depending on whether you get the club sport package). And for that kind of money, you ought to be expecting full accurate control. Especially when Fanatec have their own top of the line Forza 4 branded line. Smh.


And yes, I am bitter about it. I want to have full steering control with F4 so I have a proper excuse to go out and buy a Fanatec wheel/pedals. Just like I want the iPhone 4S to have a bigger screen or the Nexus Galaxy to not have such a crappy GPU, again, so I can buy one or the other instead of having to wait longer for a new worthy phone. Le sigh...

.

It's all misplaced bitterness.. Just look at the overwhelming amount of fanatec owners that actually play the game.. even those that observe any issues are generally not overly fussed, other then hoping it'll get fixed soon..

As I said, all these games have softness(read: assists) that make the cars easier to drive then real life, so even when you have 1:1 perfect notional input, you are still 'screwed' on the physics front which is just an approximation with some artistic licence applied.. The steering input probably accounts for less then 10% of the experience.. The FFB, the tyre physics in general, the other physics, etc are very praise worthy (but not perfect of course)

The main issue is the 900 degree one, it's not a show stopper, it's unwelcome on a technical level, but damn it man, take it from a mass of very happy fanatec/FM owners, the overall experience is gloriously entertaining/challenging and rewarding.. Any minor foibles at 270 degrees are really just minor errata and should be treated as such..

It's the same for GT5.. it has it's many foibles, and to get hung up on them and not experience what is still a first class game with some incredible highs is just ludicrous IMO..


[edit]
WTF.. you really posted this

A very interesting comparison. Also proves to me at least that Spec 2 definitely has a better or more consistent frame rate than on initial launch. pretty much always 60fps now except in close up jams or collisions, even then the drops are momentary.

Also, whilst GT5 looks more realistic overall, with a more muted colour palette and more accurate grading/lighting, I do think F4 takes it on track textures (most of the time). They seem to be a bit more detailed than GT5, though GT5 takes it on vehicle detailing and accuracy.

One thing I do disagree with DF on is the comment on handling. Imo handling and driving physics are still notably more realistic in GT5, namely because of the more advanced traction, suspension and road feedback.

So everything that isn't too good in GT5 like framerate/tearing is apparantly OK, because it only happens occasionally? But a steering foible that is largely hidden and only occurs in a specific situation when driving lairily is a show stopper?

Your logic sucks dude (Meant in jest, I do agree with you in a very small way, that any assist is unwelcome on a technical level)..

By your logic, we should hold off buying that nice new 60Hz TV, because GT5 occasionally drops to 50Hz, making it worthless?? (Crap analogy, but what the hell, the thread was getting boring.. )

 

[KKRT00]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

 

[belvedere]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

Wow

lol

 

[tusken77]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

lol Oh dear.

Also, surprised how bad Forza looks visually there compared to GT5.

 

[LabouredSubterfuge]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

:lol

Definitive.

 

[Xanadu]

forza 4s AI is pretty shit yea

 

[Conceited]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

lol

 

[gogogow]

The players car in F4 is already rammed to the side and yet the AI cars keeps slamming it, weird. I thought T10 had a good foundation to work on. I wonder what happened.

 

[darkwing]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

it looks like you don't even exist

 

[Xanadu]

Actually me and nib go back a ways for nerdy internet arguments over superfluous things, so that "precious" was just a friendly jab.

As for this:


"Sweet, Sweet Forza Jesus." I like that.

looking over this thread you are the biggest forza fanboy ever lol

 

[nib95]

So everything that isn't too good in GT5 like framerate/tearing is apparantly OK, because it only happens occasionally? But a steering foible that is largely hidden and only occurs in a specific situation when driving lairily is a show stopper?

Your logic sucks dude (Meant in jest, I do agree with you in a very small way, that any assist is unwelcome on a technical level)..

By your logic, we should hold off buying that nice new 60Hz TV, because GT5 occasionally drops to 50Hz, making it worthless?? (Crap analogy, but what the hell, the thread was getting boring.. )

Just to clarify. You think a rare drop of 5-10fps on limited and quick occasion is as bad as a lack of 900 degree steering, weaker FFB and numerous forced steering assists that exist throughout racing? (Along with all the other visual omissions F4 has over GT5.) Lol.

I promise you the actual handling/driving mechanics are infinitely more important than random 5-10fps drops which you likely won't even notice. Based on the latest videos of Spec 2's frame rate analysis, we're talking about an average frame rate of like 59fps now. The frame rate of GT5 (at least on a like for like basis) is almost a pointless area of debate since the update (not sure about tearing though I hear it's also been greatly reduced).

http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/forza-4-vs-gran-turismo-5

 

[flyinpiranha]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

Yeah, the AI in Forza 4 is laughable to be honest. I don't see how they could take such a huge step back from 3.

I wonder why they hit the brakes in the F4 video and didn't touch anything in the GT5 video. I wonder if the AI reacts differently if they think the car is "doing something". Just seems weird, if you're going to do an off camera test to make it the same, every time Forza comes up he either pushes on the brake or in the 3rd take he's applying it already.

But yeah, AI in Forza 4 sucks, there's no way around it. It's like they gun for your car.

Also, surprised how bad GT5 looks visually there compared to Forza 4.

 

[Xanadu]

Also, surprised how bad GT5 looks visually there compared to Forza 4.

did you see a different vid? oh wait its just your fanboy eyes

 

[The Stealth Fox]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

AHUAHUAHUA

 

[SmokyDave]

Really fair AI comparison between GT 5 Spec II and Forza 4.
Same car, same corner, same car position and three tests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

Tough call really. I mean, at first glance it seems that the Forza AI is blind but perhaps the other cars were all jealous of the F40 driver and his beautiful car? Perhaps the AI is really, really good and factors in envy.