Metalmurphy
Member
Slayer-33 said:
Well ofcourse it is, 60fps is better then 50fps. That's simple math.
Doesn't mean that 55fps ruins the experience.
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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35
- Thread starter bishoptl
- Start date
Well ofcourse it is, 60fps is better then 50fps. That's simple math.
Doesn't mean that 55fps ruins the experience.
Slayer-33 said:
No no I got that part. But initially the frame rate thing was brought up as a knock to GT5, but what I'm trying to say is that frame rate is essentially a non issue now. Would that extra 1-2fps to max the average be handy, sure, but it certainly doesn't make a difference in the grand scheme of things or in real world gameplay. Unless we're talking weather tracks.
With frame rate out the way, what are the other main points of comparison?
Driving physics
Handling realism
Overall Visuals
Lighting
Track accuracy
Vehicle accuracy
AI
UI
Features
Community options
Racing modes
etc etc
Being a Sim Racer though, I'd say the top priority were in the driving physics and/or handling. I mean, realism in that department for any Sim is of course the ultimate goal.
gutterboy44
Member
Slayer-33 said:
What exactly is being simulated in those occasionally dropped 4 fps? Serisouly, I am curious. What is being modeled that you are losing that is so obssesively critical. I want to know what your brain can detect at precicesly the moment these are being dropped that hinders the simulation aspect of the game. Not the visual distinction of the frame rate, but the actual game physics, track accuracy, model accuracy, lighting, FFB respone, your TV's pixel response, etc, what ever it is that is being marred by the loss of 4 60ths of a second.
You do realize you "lose" frames every time you blink.
SolidSnakex
Member
Wazzim said:
The big thing next gen is that they'll probably be working with a system that won't buckle when doing certain effects.
commedieu said:Driving physics -GT5
Handling realism -GT5
Overall Visuals - GT5
Lighting - GT5
Track accuracy -GT5
Vehicle accuracy -GT5
AI - Tie
UI - Forza
Features - Forza
Community options - Forza
Racing modes - Forza
^Fair enough. I suppose I could agree with you on that. Though GT5 definitely takes the biscuit with AI now as well (ironic that the driving simulator now also becomes the racing simulator). But yea, UI, progression and community features is definitely where F4 excels. Oh and in sound effects too, though they are a little overcooked and exaggerated. I love the monetary deduction system in Forza for using assists, causing damage etc though. Little touches like this really add to the experience.
Xanadu said:AI tie?
I've never found A.I to be enjoyable in any console sim. So Tie, its the right and ONLY answer.
F4 is an amazing effort, compared to the laughable efforts of the previous titles. It would be a much better and focused game, if it actually knew what audience it was going for.
I'm pretty sure that experimentally i would prove that its more Your imagination that factual ability to differentiate 58 from 60, or even 50, to 60.dark10x said:
Seriously there are people that dont notice drops to 20 fps from 30, and thats 33% of frames, and You are telling me that You see 2 fps drops in 60hz game...
I can agree that when You really try to focus You could probably see the difference from 60 to 50, but not in gameplay, no way.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
nib95 said:
Everything in this topic seems to boil down to GT 5 gif vs Forza gif, GT pic vs Forza pic, hand picked model of an inaccurate car to be showcased against accurate model of same car in GT 5.
So the FPS gets touched and suddenly people are dismissive? Are people making an AI argument in favor of GT's just because of one video in a corner with a car just sitting there? How about during racing? Has it been disproved at least via reviews that FM 4 isn't the more complete game and the game that comes on top across all categories overall so far? But since that's the case journalists are totally wrong now and reviews don't matter right?
Universal acclaim based on 62 Critics
Critic score distribution:
Positive: 62 out of 62
Mixed: 0 out of 62
Negative: 0
Totally undeserving of FM 4? It's totally a fabrication to think that FM 4 did achieve anything against GT 5 right? Because judging from this topic GTDF would lead you to otherwise. -corrected*
All I know is that I'm having the most fun I have ever had with a console racing sim with FM 4. I do play with assists off. I haven't experienced the 900 deg wheel assists issue because I don't have one.
gutterboy44
Member
Driving physics - GT5*
Handling realism - GT5 for wheel, tie for feel with controller
Overall Visuals - GT5
Lighting - GT5*
Track accuracy - GT5*
Vehicle accuracy - GT5*
Sound Accuracy - Forza*
AI - GT5 now, but not at launch
UI - Forza
Features - Forza*
Community options - Forza*
Racing modes - Forza*
*denotes a noteable margin over the competition
Handling realism - GT5 for wheel, tie for feel with controller
Overall Visuals - GT5
Lighting - GT5*
Track accuracy - GT5*
Vehicle accuracy - GT5*
Sound Accuracy - Forza*
AI - GT5 now, but not at launch
UI - Forza
Features - Forza*
Community options - Forza*
Racing modes - Forza*
*denotes a noteable margin over the competition
commedieu said:
Did you not see the laughable Forza 4 AI earlier?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E
If this is an amazing effort and better than previous games then I can't imagine how bad they must've been.
Gafapastismo
Banned
Truespeed said:
It was a joke but thanks, i didn't know it
tusken77 said:
I remember that IA in Forza 3 is much better
Pretty sure the AI used to avoid you in earlier Forza's? Not to the intelligence shown in the GT5 example above, but still better than what's shown in F4. So no idea what happened there. Somewhere T10 messed up with AI programming.
But about features, on second thoughts I'm not sure which game takes it. F4 has more content, upgrade options, livery editor etc, but GT5 has weather, night racing, F1, Nascar, Go-karting, Rally, Snow etc, which certainly add diversity and imo fall under features. So I guess it's a toss up. Maybe even going to the latter, since they're more driving orientated.
.
But about features, on second thoughts I'm not sure which game takes it. F4 has more content, upgrade options, livery editor etc, but GT5 has weather, night racing, F1, Nascar, Go-karting, Rally, Snow etc, which certainly add diversity and imo fall under features. So I guess it's a toss up. Maybe even going to the latter, since they're more driving orientated.
.
Slayer-33 said:
Gifs are honestly more factual than any subjective review could ever be. We are arguing facts, and you want to bring up opinions of a reviewer.
All of GT5's reviews slammed it for taking so long. Try and lie to me and pretend its not true, it was also slammed for its standard cars. Again, go ahead and lie to me and pretend its not true. It was still claimed to be a better simulation than F3. Again...see above. And scored low due to those factors.
You will always respond to unrealistic car models, tracks, permanent steering assists, sad optimization to try to keep a solid fps, etc, with what IGN said. Unfortunately, it doesn't hold much weight, as this is what sim fans are looking for.
Forza is a great series, but when you get into its features, and sim vs sim. There is no contest between it and GT5 despite Turn10 trying so hard to associate itself with the franchise. No one has drank the kool-aid. Sim fans buy GT more than Forza because of this. No, its not Sales vs Sales, its sales of 1 specific niche genre, racing sims. That was targeted by Turn10 themselves as their direct competition.
No one denies Forza is good, but its clear as day that its shortcomings aren't factored in at review time, as GT5's were made the paramount issue.
PjotrStroganov
Member
Gafapastismo said:
Yes. I thought F4 would up the game again.
Windom Earle
Member
Slayer-33 said:
Too much stuff to play at the time and I have my phases were I play racing sims religiously and then lose interest. Spec 2.0 and especially Spa are a good reason to buy it again. Forza 4 will be bought when it's a bit cheaper.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
schennmu said:
Right now that's the case for me :|
commedieu said:
A good video displaying both
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOsolsLzZeE
Both games come off as a slightly different take of the genre, I guess people will stick to their sides no matter what in here. Personally I'm a GT convert to the FM series myself and I'm not looking back unless something changes. I got bored of the GT franchise a long time ago unfortunately but I enjoyed it before Forza came.
plagiarize
Banned
i'm not going to get into the debate here (was just skimming for comedy) since i don't own either game, but... no, you wouldn't prove experimentally that it's Dark's imagination.KKRT00 said:
i talk about 'people who can see' on neogaf pretty regularly, and by that i mean people that will notice the slightest performance drop, the smallest degree of tearing, etc.
Dark is one of those people. i keep track of them because those same issues bother me.
in the case of GT5, 59 fps is very apparent vs 60 because of tearing. anyone sensitive to inconsistant motion will notice even minor drops. doubt all you like, but some of us can't help but see it.
my mum can't tell the difference between store bought diet cola and Coca Cola. but so what. that doesn't mean i can't tell the difference between them (and between Mexican Coke and American Coke).
sometimes i wish i couldn't, and maybe we're a small minority, but draw up your tests and i'll put my money on the 10x. that guy can see.
gutterboy44
Member
Dibbz said:
plagiarize
Banned
which has nothing to do with ANYTHING... but sure, whatever.gutterboy44 said:
lol.. if you play like that, whats the point of AI. I can make a video of AI crashing in GT5 too.tusken77 said:
Drive like a normal person than come back.. Oh. I think you never played Forza, right?
If you get any challenge with AI in GT, lol. It's not surprise that 99% of races are rolling start in the mid-grid (or even in last position) when the challenge is just to catch the AI, not surpass them.
First sound, now GT5 has better AI too. LOL @ this thread.
gutterboy44
Member
plagiarize said:
According to some, it actually has everything to do with the simulation experience.
What I find funny is the AI in both games actually pretty atrocious. The PC sim mod community has been making their own AI since GTR2 (if not before). I don't say that from a glorious PC master race point of view, it is just that much better. I really do not understand why PD and T10 don't pick up some of these moders / mod groups.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
gutterboy44 said:GT5 has the potential for better racing modes, but they didn't deliver imo. The rally wasn't even touched, and the NASCAR was sad, be careful the heart is heavy
The main A-spec mode is stale and entirely too familiar to me at this point. I think it is a fair grade. I think GT5 lacks the most behind Forza 4 in sound and community features. The same way I think Forza 4 is still well behind GT5 in lighting, track accuracy and physics.
Edit: For the record, you drop 3-5 fps every time you blink.
Wtf that's crazy lol
Our gpu is failing.
Imagine if our brain couldn't process all the info and our FPS dropped to 10 fps in highly pop areas, that would be crazy.
plagiarize
Banned
real race car drivers blink too. i'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this blinking nonsense.gutterboy44 said:
everyone blinks. some of us are bothered by small frame drops and tearing too. that we blink doesn't mean that those things magically stop bothering us.
i wish i couldn't see framedrops like so many other people seem incapable of.
blinking and framedrops are not equivalent.
for the record, i haven't played either game, AND i'm not saying the additional stuff that GT5 does visually is outweighed by the smoother framerate of Forza 4 or vice versa. i'm here just responding to the skepticism towards Dark10x's ability to perceive a difference between locked 60fps and 60fps with occasional minor drops.
gutterboy44
Member
Slayer-33 said:
"When your eyes begin to blink, the closing phase can vary between 50 and 120 milliseconds. The opening stage of a blink is more varied and harder to gauge, but despite the variables, a blink's total duration stays under 750 milliseconds or three-quarters of a second"
Say ~550 milliseconds = 0.55 seconds
1 fps = .016 seconds
I obviously understand that you can see the tearing and sustained lower frame rate when it happens visually. My argument is that fps doesn't effect the actual simulation of the game. That you are some how losing lap time because of dropped fps or missing braking markers.
Edit: The same way your world doesn't come to a jittery halt because of the "smoothing" your brain does when you blink. This exact same thing happens when there is a slightly slower frame rate. You will notice you blink if you want to but if you ignore it you won't. Movies are at 24fps and we can predict the motion. A racing game doesn't loose its accuracy at the arbitrary number of 55fps. My argument isn't whether or not it bothers you, I don't give a toss, it is that it doesn't effect the racing simulation. Which some were arguing it does.
Metalmurphy
Member
LOL @ anyone who thinks GT5 AI is like that famous video done like 1 year ago, which is many.shinnn said:
And unless the career mode is any different from Quick Race then you don't get any challenge in Forza 4 either. And this is with me understeering all over the place and going off track alot due to no aids + controller.
I'm the first to admit that GT5s AI isn't very challenging mainly do to how slow they do most corners, but the AI in GT does alot of things other games don't. They avoid crashes VERY well, they do stuff like waiting for cars to pass before entering the road again if they go off, they overtake very well, etc.
plagiarize
Banned
framedrops may not effect the simulation of the game, but they effect the responsiveness of your controls. not saying any of us would notice, but it is true.gutterboy44 said:
This was me before spec 2.0Metalmurphy said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nqqzdBDIWE
GT5's AI is very good but PD have limited it to stop it from being frustrating for many players. Thankfully PD have added the AI slider in the new update. I really need to test it out some more though.
gutterboy44
Member
plagiarize said:
Responsiveness of controls based on what? With no assists, with assits? With wired or wireless controller? Logitech wheel or Fanatec wheel? LCD TV or Plasma TV? Where is this lag manifesting? The USB polling rate is set independently of the frame rate.
gutterboy44
Member
Ah, it just occured to me that I can prove a concept of control response being independent of frame rate. I have a HDMI capture card on my PC and I will often play my PS3 in a window on my PC so I can multi task. I play FIFA 12 like this all the time. However, the PS3 controller is still a direct wireless link to the PS3. It could careless where that HDMI cable is going.
Since my PC is rendering the windowed display, it will occasionally lower the frame rate, independent of the game. The control response is not effected at all when the frame rate drops. So my eyes, as well as the game are seeing the lower FPS but the control is unaltered. And it effects the game play in no way shape or form.
This would only prove untrue in the case of GT5 if GT5 somehow lowered the refresh/polling rate of their controllers when the FPS dropped. I don't know for sure, but I doubt this is the case.
Since my PC is rendering the windowed display, it will occasionally lower the frame rate, independent of the game. The control response is not effected at all when the frame rate drops. So my eyes, as well as the game are seeing the lower FPS but the control is unaltered. And it effects the game play in no way shape or form.
This would only prove untrue in the case of GT5 if GT5 somehow lowered the refresh/polling rate of their controllers when the FPS dropped. I don't know for sure, but I doubt this is the case.
plagiarize
Banned
when you have frame drops, you're receiving visual information *later* (as each frame is taking longer to render) giving you less time to respond, no matter how often the controller is being polled. right? i'm not saying anyone would notice this, and maybe control lag is the wrong thing to call it... but Forza sure felt less responsive to me than Forza 2, and both apparently polled the controller at 60 hz.gutterboy44 said:
also if you hit your breaks, it's going to take longer to display the frame that shows the cars break lights coming on.
again, i'm not suggesting you'll see any difference in performance or anything. just saying that framerate isn't irrelavent in terms of 'handling' from the controller/human side of things.
gutterboy44
Member
plagiarize said:
But I just thought we established that losing visual data alone, such as blinking or a 24fps movie is not an issue since the human eye and our brain always applies "smoothing" ? We can't have it both ways. Either the unbelievably minuscule amount of 4-10fps (less than a human blink) utterly breaks our perception of racing simulations, and therfore our very phyiscal reality or it pretty much is just a minor inconvenience and our brain handles that shit in stride. Why is it that the latter seems more probable?
NullPointer
Member
My Take:commedieu said:Driving physics -GT5
Handling realism -GT5
Overall Visuals - GT5
Lighting - GT5
Track accuracy -GT5
Vehicle accuracy -GT5
AI - Tie
UI - Forza
Features - Forza
Community options - Forza
Racing modes - Forza
Driving physics - Split
Handling realism - Split
Overall Visuals - GT5 highs > Forza > GT5 lows
Audio - Forza
Framerate - Forza
Lighting - GT5
Track accuracy - GT5
Vehicle accuracy - GT5
AI - GT5 (I'd rather race robots than drunkards)
UI - Forza
Features - GT5 (Night/Weather/Rally/Snow/Course Creator, etc.)
Community options - Forza
Racing modes - Forza
Personalization - Forza
Top Gear integration - Forza
Career and Progression - Forza
gutterboy44 said:
No, you are absolutely wrong here. When you blink, you don't see anything. It is black.
When the game drops a frame, you see a torn frame and the game stutters, there is no black frame.
In movie theaters, they insert black frames at 48 or 72Hz in order to help your eyes interpret the motion correctly. (look it up) Without the black frames, the film would appear to blur, just as LCDs do.
On TVs such as most LCDs, the TV doesn't insert black frames, and you end up with motion blur. Some TVs actually DO insert black frames or strobe the backlight, and it helps your eyes to perceive motion without blur.
I'm not saying that this is at all what happens when you blink vs a frame drop and tear, but there is absolutely no denying that they are fundamentally different things. Black frames actually help your brain to interpret motion from what are essentially static images put on a screen one after another.
Windom Earle
Member
This whole eyeblink argument is a complete carnival of stupid.
What famous video? I'm talking about what I'm playing/played. GT AI did not give any challenge in my time with the career mode.Metalmurphy said:
Every racing game does have AI that avoid crashes, do overtake, etc. It's the basic. lol. Maybe you should just pay attention to other games like you do with GT.
GT5 AI is the most sterile ever. They just act like robots.
JetBlackPanda
Member
Funny Story:
I went into Gamestop to buy Forza on Sunday and walked out with GT5 it was cheaper and spec 2.0 had just come out, It has weather and Rally and Nascar! I got home installed 2 hours of updates and started the career mode, purchased a cheap car and started a race. I finished the race took GT5 out of my PS3 and returned it for Forza 4.
GT5 looked like a reskinned PS2 game, obviously I didn't see the HIGH poly models.
I have been playing Forza for hours every night since then.
GT5 seems like it could be awesome but its just to much for me, Forza is a pick up and play kind of game.
edit: I am really not trying to choose sides, this is just my experience with the 2 games so far, I still want to get into GT5 sometime.
I went into Gamestop to buy Forza on Sunday and walked out with GT5 it was cheaper and spec 2.0 had just come out, It has weather and Rally and Nascar! I got home installed 2 hours of updates and started the career mode, purchased a cheap car and started a race. I finished the race took GT5 out of my PS3 and returned it for Forza 4.
GT5 looked like a reskinned PS2 game, obviously I didn't see the HIGH poly models.
I have been playing Forza for hours every night since then.
GT5 seems like it could be awesome but its just to much for me, Forza is a pick up and play kind of game.
edit: I am really not trying to choose sides, this is just my experience with the 2 games so far, I still want to get into GT5 sometime.