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[gutterboy44]

This whole eyeblink fps argument is a complete carnival of stupid.

Fixed that for you. The blink is mearly an argument for lost "simulation" data. Because that is how my contribution to this argument started. At no point was I saying it is undetectable to the human eye, just simply that other than the visual manifestation of it, it doesn't effect the racing simulation at all, unless you are fps obsessed (which has nothing to do with racing). People then just kept moving the goal posts.

 

[Risk Breaker]

wow

Different car models used for when only one car is on the track and when there are 12.

http://makeagif.com/media/10-19-2011/vpPbaq.gif[img]

[img]http://makeagif.com/media/10-19-2011/wjDodT.gif[img]

Bravo Turn 10.[/QUOTE]

Talk about cutting corners... :P

 

[paskowitz]

My Take:

Driving physics - Split
Handling realism - GT5 (This is the only thing I would change)
Overall Visuals - GT5 highs > Forza > GT5 lows
Framerate - Forza
Lighting - GT5
Track accuracy - GT5
Vehicle accuracy - GT5
AI - GT5 (I'd rather race robots than drunkards)
UI - Forza
Features - GT5 (Night/Weather/Rally/Snow/Course Creator, etc.)
Racing modes - Forza (To me this is the same as features and its a wash up)
Community options - Forza
Personalization - Forza
(This is a feature)
Career and Progression - Forza

My take.

As a sim GT5 is slightly better. As a "game" FM4 is considerably better.

 

[Metalmurphy]

What famous video? I'm talking about what I'm playing/played. GT AI did not give any challenge in my time with the career mode.

Every racing game does have AI that avoid crashes, do overtake, etc. It's the basic. lol. Maybe you should just pay attention to other games like you do with GT.

NO WAY? THEY DO? I thought they all drove in straight lines.

How about you read the whole post instead just the words you want? You seem to have missed stuff like "VERY well". It's not just about doing it, it's how it's done. GT5 AI races like real pilots, they overtake like real pilots, and they respect other cars like real pilots. Something you cannot say about Forza, "I'll just slam all over you", AI, for example.

And does Forza AI stop outside the track waiting for cars to pass before it goes back to the road?

GT5 AI is the most sterile ever. They just act like robots.

And you want to be taken seriously?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdXriG8P31E

Look at all those robots.

 

[Wazzim]

Funny Story:

I went into Gamestop to buy Forza on Sunday and walked out with GT5 it was cheaper and spec 2.0 had just come out, It has weather and Rally and Nascar! I got home installed 2 hours of updates and started the career mode, purchased a cheap car and started a race. I finished the race took GT5 out of my PS3 and returned it for Forza 4.

I pictured you doing everything in 1 big motion without talking or anything and lol'ed.

Talk about cutting corners...

Checked and it aren't different models, you can still see the inside from the sidewindows, it's very weird but it seems that only the front and back windows are really dark (almost pitch black).

 

[JetBlackPanda]

I pictured you doing everything in 1 big motion without talking or anything and lol'ed.

Sorry my grammar is known to lose some FPS in threads like these.

lol

 

[Dibbz]

What famous video? I'm talking about what I'm playing/played. GT AI did not give any challenge in my time with the career mode.

Every racing game does have AI that avoid crashes, do overtake, etc. It's the basic. lol. Maybe you should just pay attention to other games like you do with GT.

GT5 AI is the most sterile ever. They just act like robots.

Every time you come into this thread you get shot down instantly.

 

[Polyphony]

The AI in GT5 actually has some variety and personality. B-spec demonstrates the temperament of different drivers very well. Hot tempered drivers are more aggressive, try to overtake more and end up crashing sometimes. The more conservative drivers are consistent but have more difficulty to pass. The AI also attempts to out break you sometimes, it can yield and commit mistakes.

The problem is, in A-Spec mode, the AI difficulty is tuned down. This is probably done to satisfy a larger crowd of players. It's also a design choice since you always start last in races and make your way up in a limited number of laps. The slow AI makes it less difficult. If GT5 had qualifying sessions, maybe the situation would be different.

But in Arcade mode, you can now tune the AI difficulty (which I haven't tried yet and can't judge). I remember in GT5 Prologue that it actually had competent racecraft at 101 difficulty setting.

 

[NullPointer]

Look at all those robots.

GT5 AI has actually improved over time, while Forza 4 is actually worse then Forza 3.

Maybe Turn 10 will patch in some improvements but right now GT5 is a pretty clear winner in AI. Its actually pretty rare for me to finish a career race without suffering some damage from the other cars. I never would've thought it would be this way, but there you go.

As a sim GT5 is slightly better. As a "game" FM4 is considerably better.

I've said this very same thing before a few times and I would usually agree with it, but the Forza AI really does weaken some of those game aspects, at least in career mode.

 

[Metalmurphy]

The AI in GT5 actually has some variety and personality. B-spec demonstrates the temperament of different drivers very well. Hot tempered drivers are more aggressive, try to overtake more and end up crashing sometimes. The more conservative drivers are consistent but have more difficulty to pass. The AI also attempts to out break you sometimes, it can yield and commit mistakes.

The problem is, in A-Spec mode, the AI difficulty is tuned down. This is probably done to satisfy a larger crowd of players. It's also a design choice since you always start last in races and make your way up in a limited number of laps. The slow AI makes it less difficult. If GT5 had qualifying sessions, maybe the situation would be different.

But in Arcade mode, you can now tune the AI difficulty (which I haven't tried yet and can't judge). I remember in GT5 Prologue that it actually had competent racecraft at 101 difficulty setting.

I'm not convinced it's intentional. I think the AI really is lacking in skill while doing most corners. Funnily enough, they do others better then I do, specially with the FGT.

The new AI in Spec 2.0, in arcade, with everything set to max was alot better but I haven't even tested it that much. Need to do some more races that way, it was definitively more challenging.

GT5 AI has actually improved over time, while Forza 4 is actually worse then Forza 3.

Maybe Turn 10 will patch in some improvements but right now GT5 is a pretty clear winner in AI. Its actually pretty rare for me to finish a career race without suffering some damage from the other cars. I never would've thought it would be this way, but there you go.


I've said this very same thing before a few times and I would usually agree with it, but the Forza AI really does weaken some of those game aspects, at least in career mode.

Definitely, but GT5 AI was never what some people claimed it was. Which was static, didn't take into consideration other AI or the player, drove always in the same line, etc.

This was done back with Prologue:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=13132520#post13132520

 

[Wazzim]

GT5 AI has actually improved over time, while Forza 4 is actually worse then Forza 3.

Maybe Turn 10 will patch in some improvements but right now GT5 is a pretty clear winner in AI. Its actually pretty rare for me to finish a career race without suffering some damage from the other cars. I never would've thought it would be this way, but there you go.

Yup, they can be very annoying when you just want to race a clean lap. I bet the possible AI patch will be some special DLC for 400 spacebucks lol.

 

[plagiarize]

Fixed that for you. The blink is mearly an argument for lost "simulation" data. Because that is how my contribution to this argument started. At no point was I saying it is undetectable to the human eye, just simply that other than the visual manifestation of it, it doesn't effect the racing simulation at all, unless you are fps obsessed (which has nothing to do with racing). People then just kept moving the goal posts.

i know the simulation is unaffected. i think i'm not doing the best job of explaining this, but let me have another go.

the simulation decides where the cars are, etc, then the game starts rendering a frame based on that. rendering this frame takes time, the longer that time is, the less responsive the game is going to feel.

when you get a framedrop, it's generally because the frames are more complicated (more cars, more effects, whatever). you don't just get less frames, but each frame displayed is further behind the simulation than running at a locked 60 fps.

it isn't just lost visual information, what you are seeing is running that teeny tiny little bit further behind the simulation than when the game is running at 60 fps.

again, this may well be impercetable, but it's absolutely there. the more image lag you have, the less responsive the game is going to feel. unless your game is running at lower framerates because of how complicated the simulations are (which i do not believe to be the case with GT5) then lower framerates = higher image lag = less responsive feeling controls.

this may be imperceivable, but it's factually accurate of me to say it's there.

and once more, for anyone not paying attention, i am absolutely not saying Forza 4 > GT5 because of framerate. i don't know which the better game is. i'm just here as part of the framerate defence force

 

[panty]

Are there still hidden assists in Forza 4? Someone said they still exist even when you turn everything off. Also have T10 fixed the deadzone bug with wheels? Any support for G27/G25, if not, why?

Oh and LOL @ GT5 AI being like a robot. Obviously the poor troll hasn't even played GT5.

 

[NullPointer]

and once more, for anyone not paying attention, i am absolutely not saying Forza 4 > GT5 because of framerate. i don't know which the better game is. i'm just here as part of the framerate defence force

As a framerate whore I appreciate it

 

[Xanadu]

Every time you come into this thread you get shot down instantly.

he had some balls on him rofl

 

[gutterboy44]

i know the simulation is unaffected. i think i'm not doing the best job of explaining this, but let me have another go.

the simulation decides where the cars are, etc, then the game starts rendering a frame based on that. rendering this frame takes time, the longer that time is, the less responsive the game is going to feel.

when you get a framedrop, it's generally because the frames are more complicated (more cars, more effects, whatever). you don't just get less frames, but each frame displayed is further behind the simulation than running at a locked 60 fps.

it isn't just lost visual information, what you are seeing is running that teeny tiny little bit further behind the simulation than when the game is running at 60 fps.

again, this may well be impercetable, but it's absolutely there. the more image lag you have, the less responsive the game is going to feel. unless your game is running at lower framerates because of how complicated the simulations are (which i do not believe to be the case with GT5) then lower framerates = higher image lag = less responsive feeling controls.

this may be imperceivable, but it's factually accurate of me to say it's there.

and once more, for anyone not paying attention, i am absolutely not saying Forza 4 > GT5 because of framerate. i don't know which the better game is. i'm just here as part of the framerate defence force

Ok, your defense is a bit different the the original one proposed by Cpt. 60fps. My argument started with one person and transitioned to another (go internet!). A sustained lower framerate will be like playing a game in slow mo which could fuck up your driving. However, I'd say that is when you start hitting a sustained 40 fps or lower, which GT5 very rarely hits, if ever. The argument originated with the implication that even the slightest dip, a 3-5 fps somehow broke the simulation aspect not simply the visual fidelity (primarily tearing). Like missing your braking mark because of a 4fps dip (this is where the blink analogy came in).

 

[ShapeGSX]

A sustained lower framerate will be like playing a game in slow mo which could fuck up your driving.

No it isn't. The clock remains the same in the game.

 

[gutterboy44]

No it isn't. The clock remains the same in the game.

Jesus, make up your mind. If the clock is the same it is just visual fidelity being lost and not effecting the simulation and akin to the concept of a blink. If it is a sustained frame rate drop and the whole game slows down, then you are having your driving effected in addition to the fps. Which one is it?

 

[tusken77]

This blinking stuff is more tedious than shadows of mirrors, thumb positioning, and trees combined.

The thread needs more awesome GT5 gifs!

 

[ShapeGSX]

Jesus, make up your mind. If the clock is the same it is just visual fidelity being lost and not effecting the simulation and akin to the concept of a blink. If it is a sustained frame rate drop and the whole game slows down, then you are having your driving effected in addition to the fps. Which one is it?

It isn't akin to a blink. I explained that before.

And I'm not the one you are arguing with about the slow down. I was just pointing out that your statement was incorrect.

 

[shinnn]

Every time you come into this thread you get shot down instantly.

Lol.. That's why you need to record a video for youtube, make a gif. Because it's an excepcional case. I see those things every day when I play a racing game. I played a bit of of GT5 and if I saw 2 times something like that is much.

Also your gif invalidate the Metalmurphy argument that AI return carefully to the track (something that is not wrong for me though).

 

[gutterboy44]

Ah, leaving work. No more need to waste time in an argument thread. Have fun all. (this message was typed at 60fps)

 

[Pepto]

GT5 AI has actually improved over time, while Forza 4 is actually worse then Forza 3.

You unlock the proper AI in Forza 4 when you reach level 150.

 

[Xanadu]

This blinking stuff is more tedious than shadows of mirrors, thumb positioning, and trees combined.

The thread needs more awesome GT5 gifs!

sick of gifs tbh. seen them all a million times

 

[brotkasten]

You unlock the proper AI in Forza 4 when you reach level 150.

God, I LOVED that time back at the GT5 launch.

"Where damage?"
"You have to unlock it."
"Where's mechanical damage?"
"You have to unlock it"
Never gets to unlock it.

 

[tusken77]

sick of gifs tbh. seen them all a million times

There can never be enough GT5 gif goodness.

 

[NullPointer]

sick of gifs tbh. seen them all a million times

I could watch this one all day

 

[statham]

experiment: the car in the backwards forza/GT5 video, the forza guy turns on his brakes before the car hits him, but the GT5 car doesn't hit the breaks. would like to see gif both ways. maybe the forza car sees the car breaking and not backwards and maybe thats why they hit them, where the GT5 car doesn't break so they try to move around him.

 

[shinnn]

GT5 AI has actually improved over time, while Forza 4 is actually worse then Forza 3.

Maybe Turn 10 will patch in some improvements but right now GT5 is a pretty clear winner in AI. Its actually pretty rare for me to finish a career race without suffering some damage from the other cars. I never would've thought it would be this way, but there you go.


I've said this very same thing before a few times and I would usually agree with it, but the Forza AI really does weaken some of those game aspects, at least in career mode.

Maybe you need to avoid the AI. They are more challenging, more alive, so there's more fight for the position on the track. I'm in level 41 and the AI is much better than FM3. Sometimes it feels like an online racing. Yeah, they make some stupid things, but I think it's the price for a more challenge AI. If you can't finish a race without damage, maybe you are the agressive. Also forza have a historic of AI being more agressive according to your driving behavior. Even in FM3 I see people on internet complaining about over agressive AI, but I haven't seen that in my playtime.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Lol.. That's why you need to record a video for youtube, make a gif. Because it's an excepcional case. I see those things every day when I play a racing game. I played a bit of of GT5 and if I saw 2 times something like that is much.

Also your gif invalidate the Metalmurphy argument that AI return carefully to the track (something that is not wrong for me though).

In case you didn't notice he didn't even stop... I meant when theres a crash and cars go outside the track with very low speeds.

experiment: the car in the backwards forza/GT5 video, the forza guy turns on his brakes before the car hits him, but the GT5 car doesn't hit the breaks. would like to see gif both ways. maybe the forza car sees the car breaking and not backwards and maybe thats why they hit them, where the GT5 car doesn't break so they try to move around him.

They do avoid you even if you break in GT5.

 

[NullPointer]

Maybe you need to avoid the AI.

Believe me, if I could I would, but things tend to get crowded ;P

 

[statham]

In case you didn't notice he didn't even stop... I meant when theres a crash and cars go outside the track with very low speeds.


They do avoid you even if you break in GT5.

and watching in hired driver mode in forza, they defiantly avoid brake lights. and take calculated risks to past cars

 

[Snubbers]

experiment: the car in the backwards forza/GT5 video, the forza guy turns on his brakes before the car hits him, but the GT5 car doesn't hit the breaks. would like to see gif both ways. maybe the forza car sees the car breaking and not backwards and maybe thats why they swerve the GT5 cars, because he doesn't break. its a experiment, someone please try it.

I think that fact people use a quite extreme 'set piece' example as some qualification of the entire AI system tells me that asking anyone in this thread to actually appraise the entire AI is not going to happen..

Although, just to fan the flames, lets remember the Gamespot video from E3..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9fJGWZuUz1I#t=673s

Now, I'll quote Dan on tihs..

Most racing you games you play, if you park on the racing line, the AI smash into you

Cue, the LOLz at that with numerous quotations to said previous AI fail video..

You could of course watch the AI demonstration in the Gamespot and see what they are trying to achieve and marry that with the general AI behaviour when you play each game, and discuss how well each game tries to get the AI to be competitive and react intelligently whilst racing, but that wouldn't really suit most people's agenda's..


It would be nice to have a proper article exploring AI/Physics etc in depth, to show where each game gets things right/wrong..

 

[Dead Man]

Funny Story:

I went into Gamestop to buy Forza on Sunday and walked out with GT5 it was cheaper and spec 2.0 had just come out, It has weather and Rally and Nascar! I got home installed 2 hours of updates and started the career mode, purchased a cheap car and started a race. I finished the race took GT5 out of my PS3 and returned it for Forza 4.

GT5 looked like a reskinned PS2 game, obviously I didn't see the HIGH poly models.

I have been playing Forza for hours every night since then.

GT5 seems like it could be awesome but its just to much for me, Forza is a pick up and play kind of game.

edit: I am really not trying to choose sides, this is just my experience with the 2 games so far, I still want to get into GT5 sometime.

LOL

 

[test_account]

experiment: the car in the backwards forza/GT5 video, the forza guy turns on his brakes before the car hits him, but the GT5 car doesn't hit the breaks. would like to see gif both ways. maybe the forza car sees the car breaking and not backwards and maybe thats why they hit them, where the GT5 car doesn't break so they try to move around him.

I think that they have the break on in FM4 in an attempt to keep the car on the road, because they know that the AI will hit them.

 

[Angst]

Funny Story:

I went into Gamestop to buy Forza on Sunday and walked out with GT5 it was cheaper and spec 2.0 had just come out, It has weather and Rally and Nascar! I got home installed 2 hours of updates and started the career mode, purchased a cheap car and started a race. I finished the race took GT5 out of my PS3 and returned it for Forza 4.

GT5 looked like a reskinned PS2 game, obviously I didn't see the HIGH poly models.

I have been playing Forza for hours every night since then.

GT5 seems like it could be awesome but its just to much for me, Forza is a pick up and play kind of game.

edit: I am really not trying to choose sides, this is just my experience with the 2 games so far, I still want to get into GT5 sometime.

One race and you knew enough to return the game? Funny, but made up story would have been more appropriate.

 

[test_account]

Yeah, especially if he was interested in rally and NASCAR as he mentioned. Why not even try those things if those were some of the main reasons why he bought GT5 instead of FM4?

 

[Lothars]

Funny Story:

I went into Gamestop to buy Forza on Sunday and walked out with GT5 it was cheaper and spec 2.0 had just come out, It has weather and Rally and Nascar! I got home installed 2 hours of updates and started the career mode, purchased a cheap car and started a race. I finished the race took GT5 out of my PS3 and returned it for Forza 4.

GT5 looked like a reskinned PS2 game, obviously I didn't see the HIGH poly models.
I have been playing Forza for hours every night since then.

GT5 seems like it could be awesome but its just to much for me, Forza is a pick up and play kind of game.

edit: I am really not trying to choose sides, this is just my experience with the 2 games so far, I still want to get into GT5 sometime.

Wow, that boggles my mind, GT5 has great graphics, it looks way better than any PS2 game. I really can't take your post with anything but a grain of salt.

You played one race and that was enough to judge the game and return it?

I really like Forza 4 as well but GT5 is amazing.

 

[paskowitz]

LOL

Lol.

Oh wait... more lol...

He must have really missed those HIGH res models...

 

[Yoshichan]

Look at all those robots.

W...wow.

 

[Metalmurphy]

W...wow.

The best part is, the car with the hood cam is also an AI.

 

[ghibli99]

My Take:

Driving physics - Split
Handling realism - Split
Overall Visuals - GT5 highs > Forza > GT5 lows
Audio - Forza
Framerate - Forza
Lighting - GT5
Track accuracy - GT5
Vehicle accuracy - GT5
AI - GT5 (I'd rather race robots than drunkards)
UI - Forza
Features - GT5 (Night/Weather/Rally/Snow/Course Creator, etc.)
Community options - Forza
Racing modes - Forza
Personalization - Forza
Top Gear integration - Forza
Career and Progression - Forza

Agreed, especially after playing both about the same amount of time so far. I prefer the driving/handling in Forza more, even though on an objective level, GT5 might be more accurate. Forza just feels more 'right/fun' to me, in a subjective way.

Edit: And GT5 photos (and photomode) destroy FM4's all day long (and I'm a big Forza fan).

 

[statham]

One race and you knew enough to return the game? Funny, but made up story would have been more appropriate.

I have used gamestop return used game within 7 days many time . If I'm not feeling a game within a hour I return it. I recently returned bioshock 2 and enslaved because I wasn't feeling it. I want to rebuy enslaved tho. don't feel I gave it a fair shake.

 

[test_account]

I have used gamestop return used game within 7 days many time . If I'm not feeling a game within a hour I return it. I recently returned bioshock 2 and enslaved because I wasn't feeling it. I want to rebuy enslaved tho. don't feel I gave it a fair shake.

Doesnt make much sense to return the game after one race when he was interested in Rally and NASCAR though. Within 7 days, or even within the hour i could easily see, but after one race? That is probably 5-10 minute of gameplay and it represent less than 1% of what the game has to offer.

 

[Polyphony]

Lol, Jason is back. First time I've seen him post without a YouTube video.

 

[NullPointer]

Doesnt make much sense to return the game after one race when he was interested in Rally and NASCAR though. Within 7 days, or even within the hour i could easily see, but after one race? That is probably 5-10 minute of gameplay and it represent less than 1% of what the game has to offer.

That and I don't see how the first hour of Forza 4 is great in comparison. The first race in the Alps would have been nice if you could run it without assists though.

 

[commedieu]

Doesnt make much sense to return the game after one race when he was interested in Rally and NASCAR though. Within 7 days, or even within the hour i could easily see, but after one race? That is probably 5-10 minute of gameplay and it represent less than 1% of what the game has to offer.

The whole thing never happened...

m_knight_sham.png

 

[SuperÑ]

Hey guys.

Fun game = Forza 4
Boooooooooring game = GT5

 

[Yoshichan]

The best part is, the car with the hood cam is also an AI.

You're shitting me, right ._.?

 

[test_account]

That and I don't see how the first hour of Forza 4 is great in comparison. The first race in the Alps would have been nice if you could run it without assists though.

Indeed. He seem to give Forza 4 a much more fair chance than GT5.

The whole thing never happened...

m_knight_sham.png

Hehe


But if it is true that he really returned GT5 after just one race, then he probably missed out on much fun, especially seeing that he said that he played (and most likely enjoyed) Forza 4 for hours each day. If he enjoy Forza 4 this much, then i think he would have enjoyed GT5 as well if he gave it a more fair chance. Oh well, it is his choice though, i wont say that it is right or wrong for him. The most important thing is that he is satisfied with the games he is playing