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Forza 3 vs Gran Turismo 5 Comparison Thread of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35

Apex

Apex

Member
saladine1 said:
That's the thing right there. Physics is a very subjective debate. I can go on about how myself and a few mates race in the V8 Brutes, Porsche Carrera Cup and various rally comps down here is Aus but I wont go into a credentials war.
We feel that games like RBR, iRacing etc.. are the benchmarks for physics in racing games and that console sims like GT and Forza, are good in their own right but are still short in many ways.
The fact of the matter is, people are always going to prefer one type of physics over another and it comes down to one major factor imo......perception.
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Perception and facts. You make it sound like would be not possible to determine what handling model is more realistic by a knowledgeable player.

There are a lot of factual details wich make the driving more realistic and believable in one sim rather than another.

For example C&D stated some factual handling behaviour that were correctly modeled in GT5 and completely wrong in FM3. Steering assists are a fact and have an unrealistic impact in the handling. Etc...

Game feeling is subjective, realistic physics not so much.
 
N

Niks

Member
Nice to see this thread (almost) returning to its former glory.



I you want some good laughs, I suggest taking a trip down memory lane by visiting some of the earlier posts in this thread.

I cant believe some people claimed Forza 3 looked on par with GT5.
:lol
 
R

Risk Breaker

Member
p3tran said:
your opinion, stated as fact.

a game that tears the fuck out when it gets busy cannot be hailed as graphics king. not in this life.
Click to expand...

LOL, that's like saying that Gears 3 is worse graphics wise than Gears 2 because it has more aliasing ;)
 
S

ShapeGSX

Member
nib95 said:
I do think, despite the long 6 year wait for the games release, GT is still leading the way in terms of technology and feature set in the sense that Forza is still playing catch up with respect to racing and handling physics, AI, graphics and lighting engine, vehicle diversity, weather, night racing etc. But Forza is leading the way in UI and community aspects, such as interface speed, game progression, livery editor, upgrade options etc.
Click to expand...

And stars in reasonably priced cars.
 
S

ShapeGSX

Member
Apex said:
Perception and facts. You make it sound like would be not possible to determine what handling model is more realistic by a knowledgeable player.

There are a lot of factual details wich make the driving more realistic and believable in one sim rather than another.

For example C&D stated some factual handling behaviour that were correctly modeled in GT5 and completely wrong in FM3. Steering assists are a fact and have an unrealistic impact in the handling. Etc...

Game feeling is subjective, realistic physics not so much.
Click to expand...

Without being able to feel the g-forces, it is really quite difficult to tell what is really going on with the physics. There is so much more feedback in a real car than in a simulation. That is why it is subjective, because the necessary feedback to allow you to come to an objective conclusion is completely missing.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
Apex said:
Perception and facts. You make it sound like would be not possible to determine what handling model is more realistic by a knowledgeable player.

There are a lot of factual details wich make the driving more realistic and believable in one sim rather than another.

For example C&D stated some factual handling behaviour that were correctly modeled in GT5 and completely wrong in FM3. Steering assists are a fact and have an unrealistic impact in the handling. Etc...

Game feeling is subjective, realistic physics not so much.
Click to expand...
Well, that's pretty much what I meant. The actual feel rather than the absolute physics itself.

Although, if the best physics could be determined by a knowledgeable player, we would have had a clear decision by now. It isn't the case and it never will be.
 
N

nib95

Banned
saladine1 said:
Well, that's pretty much what I meant. The actual feel rather than the absolute physics itself.

Although, if the best physics could be determined by a knowledgeable player, we would have had a clear decision by now. It isn't the case and it never will be.
Click to expand...

Is there a single Sim enthusiast racer/gamer that believe Forza's driving or physics model to more accurate or realistic than GT5's? I don't think there has been. I don't even think it's possible.

Are there people who prefer Forza's driving or racing model or prefer Forza as a game? Sure. But I don't think any sim enthusiast could argue that GT isn't the more realistic driving/racing game here.
 
GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
ShapeGSX said:
Without being able to feel the g-forces, it is really quite difficult to tell what is really going on with the physics. There is so much more feedback in a real car than in a simulation. That is why it is subjective, because the necessary feedback to allow you to come to an objective conclusion is completely missing.
Click to expand...

The wheel gives you everything you need, if the game can communicate well with the wheel then physics is not subjective. You might not feel the G-forces but the g-force is not the main feedback that is needed to determine which sim is better.
 
R

Red Blaster

Member
Takes some massive cognitive dissonance to defend an arcade racer that plays itself and has GT1 AI, gotta give props to the Forza fans for pulling through.
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
Unfortunately it's difficult to evaluate the physics in Forza 4 to the same degree as other games. The FFB isn't as good in FM4, even through I think it communicates much better how to be "faster", it also has a pretty stark FFB dead zone in the center (Yes I made sure to get rid of dead zone in the wheel settings). Add the counter steer ratio change and it's difficult to really gauge it.

It does do some things great though. The clutch is amazing in FM4, trail braking feels sublime. Throttle, clutch, and braking feel better in FM4. Low powered cars chirp second gear if you shift really aggressively/power shift just like in real life. Monster cars that really would break the rear wheels lose under 1000 hps of do so quite happily in FM4.

So for physics I've give steering to GT5 and throttle, clutch, and braking to FM4. They'd have to fix the interface and FFB issues to evaluate the steering better in FM4.

One thing I can say for the steering input in FM4. Go from large sidewalled tires to very low profile tires and there's a huge difference in how the cars react to steering input, as it should be.
 
N

nib95

Banned
Yoritomo said:
Unfortunately it's difficult to evaluate the physics in Forza 4 to the same degree as other games. The FFB isn't as good in FM4, even through I think it communicates much better how to be "faster", it also has a pretty stark FFB dead zone in the center (Yes I made sure to get rid of dead zone in the wheel settings). Add the counter steer ratio change and it's difficult to really gauge it.

It does do some things great though. The clutch is amazing in FM4, trail braking feels sublime. Throttle, clutch, and braking feel better in FM4. Low powered cars chirp second gear if you shift really aggressively/power shift just like in real life. Monster cars that really would break the rear wheels lose under 1000 hps of do so quite happily in FM4.

So for physics I've give steering to GT5 and throttle, clutch, and braking to FM4. They'd have to fix the interface and FFB issues to evaluate the steering better in FM4.

One thing I can say for the steering input in FM4. Go from large sidewalled tires to very low profile tires and there's a huge difference in how the cars react to steering input, as it should be.
Click to expand...

I personally think throttle, braking and the starkest difference, suspension and road feedback all go in favour of GT5. I haven't used the clutch with F4 yet (just using a Microsoft wheel till forced assists get sorted, then I'll upgrade to a Fanatec set up) but I do hear it's very good in F4. About the only thing I've heard anyone say is better compared to GT5 in terms of the actual driving accuracy. Not sure if the clutch has been improved in GT5 through Spec 2, just remember it being a touch fidgety and too sensitive in the initial release.

Anyway, the video above seems fitting.
 
S

saladine1

Junior Member
nib95 said:
Is there a single Sim enthusiast racer/gamer that believe Forza's driving or physics model to more accurate or realistic than GT5's? I don't think there has been. I don't even think it's possible.

Are there people who prefer Forza's driving or racing model or prefer Forza as a game? Sure. But I don't think any sim enthusiast could argue that GT isn't the more realistic driving/racing game here.
Click to expand...
No, GT is THE epitome of sim. Not a single sim enthusiast in the world prefers Forza's over GT's. It's a fact that I have access to. It's written in the good book...somewhere in the back section.
 
F

flyinpiranha

Member
It's funny when you read both respective OT's how respectful and helpful people are then this thread is people just being dicks to each other.

It was funny, I saw that video in the GT5 Spec II thread about how Kaz posted it on Twitter and thought "I wonder how long until it gets posted in the vs thread" ... 50 minutes, but posted by 2 people back to back. Not bad.
 
S

shinnn

Member
Red Blaster said:
Takes some massive cognitive dissonance to defend an arcade racer that plays itself and has GT1 AI, gotta give props to the Forza fans for pulling through.
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That's the difference between Forza and GT fans.

One argues that the game is unfinished, has tearing, unstable fps, standard cars.. Other argues the game is arcade, AI is GT1 level, collisions are broken, graphics are cartoon, etc, etc, etc.

That's why GT is in declining since GT3. lol
 
GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
shinnn said:
That's the difference between Forza and GT fans.

One argues that the game is unfinished, has tearing, unstable fps, standard cars.. Other argues the game is arcade, AI is GT1 level, collisions are broken, graphics are cartoon, etc, etc, etc.

That's why GT is in declining since GT3. lol
Click to expand...

Here we go.
 
Apex

Apex

Member
ShapeGSX said:
Without being able to feel the g-forces, it is really quite difficult to tell what is really going on with the physics. There is so much more feedback in a real car than in a simulation. That is why it is subjective, because the necessary feedback to allow you to come to an objective conclusion is completely missing.
Click to expand...
Really?

Which have the more realistic physics this or this?
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
nib95 said:
I personally think throttle, braking and the starkest difference, suspension and road feedback all go in favour of GT5. I haven't used the clutch with F4 yet (just using a Microsoft wheel till forced assists get sorted, then I'll upgrade to a Fanatec set up) but I do hear it's very good in F4. About the only thing I've heard anyone say is better compared to GT5 in terms of the actual driving accuracy. Not sure if the clutch has been improved in GT5 through Spec 2, just remember it being a touch fidgety and too sensitive in the initial release.

Anyway, the video above seems fitting.
Click to expand...

Road feedback through the FFB just plain doesn't exist in FM4 at all. There are visual and audio cues but none through FFB.

... And when it comes to vehicle handling model accuracy, I'd give the nod to FM4. Tires lose traction when they should. Brakes work when ABS is turned off. Power shifting works. I'm not a GT5 newbie. I have gold in every single event except anything above A-Spec 31 (well I only have 2 golds in the Sebastian Vettel Challenge.)

The thing that's fucked up about FM4 is the steering. Since we lose feedback due to G forces each game tries to communicate these lost senses in other ways. Forza's primary strength has always been by doing this via audio. GT5 does it very well via FFB and visual. Forza 4 has vastly improved this to include better visual feedback. The FFB is not accurate in FM4 but is very communicative regarding what is happening with the vehicle (at least at the limits of traction.)
 
S

ShapeGSX

Member
GTP_Daverytimes said:
The wheel gives you everything you need, if the game can communicate well with the wheel then physics is not subjective. You might not feel the G-forces but the g-force is not the main feedback that is needed to determine which sim is better.
Click to expand...

As an autocrosser, I disagree. The feel of the G-force is critical.
 
N

nib95

Banned
Yoritomo said:
Road feedback through the FFB just plain doesn't exist in FM4 at all. There are visual and audio cues but none through FFB.

... And when it comes to vehicle handling model accuracy, I'd give the nod to FM4. Tires lose traction when they should. Brakes work when ABS is turned off. Power shifting works. I'm not a GT5 newbie. I have gold in every single event except anything above A-Spec 31 (well I only have 2 golds in the Sebastian Vettel Challenge.)

The thing that's fucked up about FM4 is the steering. Since we lose feedback due to G forces each game tries to communicate these lost senses in other ways. Forza's primary strength has always been by doing this via audio. GT5 does it very well via FFB and visual. Forza 4 has vastly improved this to include better visual feedback. The FFB is not accurate in FM4 but is very communicative regarding what is happening with the vehicle (at least at the limits of traction.)
Click to expand...

Again, I have to disagree to some extents. I think F4 has made big strides in that respect, but I think it's balance with traction and braking is still a bit inconsistent ranging from either too timid or too obtuse. I don't think the forgivingness of it all is just through steering assists alone, I think it's because the traction feedback is overtly forgiving too. You go from either consistently too much balance or grip to a sometimes exaggerated loss of it. the middle ground is sometimes harder to register or get a feel for.

Add to that, whilst visual que's have been improved considerably, it's still well off GT's in terms of accuracy. Weight transfer, the way the car reacts to braking, steerings, bumps, elevation changes, high torque gear shifts etc, there's a lot more by way of visual que's in GT5 over F4. Just load up the same car and track in both now and give them a spin in cockpit view, turn the sound completely off for a better sample. You can tell what's going on just by visual que's more accurately in GT5, and that in turn is something I think the physics engine is responsible for. It just reacts to everything more accurately.
 
Apex

Apex

Member
Yoritomo said:
... And when it comes to vehicle handling model accuracy, I'd give the nod to FM4. Tires lose traction when they should. Brakes work when ABS is turned off. Power shifting works.
Click to expand...
Come on....

998061066_78637bf7c2.jpg


vs

cord18js.jpg
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
Apex said:
Come on....

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1146/998061066_78637bf7c2.jpg[img]

vs

[img]http://www.abload.de/img/cord18js.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

Post your gamertag and PSN info, lets see how much you've played both.
Click to expand...
 
R

Red Blaster

Member
shinnn said:
That's the difference between Forza and GT fans.

One argues that the game is unfinished, has tearing, unstable fps, standard cars.. Other argues the game is arcade, AI is GT1 level, collisions are broken, graphics are cartoon, etc, etc, etc.

That's why GT is in declining since GT3. lol
Click to expand...

Forza is pretty unfinished, at least the sim part is...you know, since the game plays itself and all.
 
W

Wazzim

Banned
Red Blaster said:
Forza is pretty unfinished, at least the sim part is...you know, since the game plays itself and all.
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You desperately want people to feed you, don't you?





I have no HDD in my 360 so can't upload replay's, does anyone with a HDD want to upload one on youtube? Forza 4 seems to be lacking some good GIFs.
 
K

kazinova

Member
Has anyone compared the clutches in the games, I've heard people say the Forza 4 clutch feel is pretty amazing, any unbiased opinions out there on this?

Actually, the thing I hate in Forza 4 is that the paddle shift cars still seem to have a clutch when they shouldn't. Am I mistaken or is this true. I never got into GT5 enough to play with a clutch so I don't have any point of reference.
 
R

RotBot

Member
Yoritomo said:
Power shifting works.
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What do you mean by "works" here? GT5 will slip to neutral when you shift with full throttle.

Edit: Oops, you're talking about FM4 here. Yeah, FM has a better clutch than GT5.
 
S

Shaneus

Member
Dead Man said:
Well this thread has certainly devolved today :/
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Mmhmm. I think it's because all the Forza fanboys are busy playing while the GT defenders have already finished working out what the patches did.

I know that this is the first I've been here in a while.
tusken77 said:
This is the music I imagine when in this thread...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAcnDevkTnc

The Magic Roundabout. It just goes round and round and round...
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This is better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
 
T

tusken77

Member
Wazzim said:
I have no HDD in my 360 so can't upload replay's, does anyone with a HDD want to upload one on youtube? Forza 4 seems to be lacking some good GIFs.
Click to expand...

I think there's a reason why people don't put Forza gifs in this thread.
 
K

kazinova

Member
RotBot said:
What do you mean by "works" here? GT5 will slip to neutral when you shift with full throttle.

Edit: Oops, you're talking about FM4 here. Yeah, FM has a better clutch than GT5.
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This answers my question as well. Isn't the clutch a really important part of "simulation"? For most cars I mean, DSGs are obviously not a part of that.
 
W

Wazzim

Banned
tusken77 said:
I think there's a reason why people don't put Forza gifs in this thread.
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Yeah like I said, there are almost none in existence. It isn't like the game can't look good lol, almost any game looks good in GIFs.
Another one, quite big in size but looks great:
forza2n9qa.gif
 
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NullPointer

Member
Wazzim said:
Yeah like I said, there are almost none in existence. It isn't like the game can't look good lol, almost any game looks good in GIFs.
Another one, quite big in size but looks great:
forza2n9qa.gif
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Forza 4 does look great, and its been improved over Forza 3 in a lot of subtle and not so subtle ways. Its not likely to get mistaken for reality as much as GT5, but the art style still works. Its not cartoony so much as colorful, although it can still fall prey to black and white crush.
 
Y

Yoritomo

Member
It falls prey to black and white crush because people aren't calibrating their monitors/TV sets.

Some older HDMI inputs expect 16-235 rather than full RGB 0-255. Forza puts a lot of material in the extremes of that range, which could definitely be seen as a problem/flaw. They're probably trying to mimic the overly contrasty highly vignetted cinematography of Top Gear.

I'm not sure it properly adjusts for the xboxes settings either. If you don't have it on in the xbox settings expanded then you'll see black and white crush. If you don't have an hdmi input that handles full RGB then you'll get black and white crush. I had crushed blacks until I had all the xboxes on expanded.
 
W

Wazzim

Banned
Yoritomo said:
It falls prey to black and white crush because people aren't calibrating their monitors/TV sets.

Some older HDMI inputs expect 16-235 rather than full RGB 0-255. Forza puts a lot of material in the extremes of that range, which could definitely be seen as a problem/flaw. They're probably trying to mimic the overly contrasty highly vignetted cinematography of Top Gear.
Click to expand...
I think they need a totally new engine, it's obvious that it's the only thing preventing them to look as GT5 looks at it's prime. An original XBOX engine can only do so much.

HollovVpo1nt said:
I thought the whole point of Sim racers was to try to simulate the feel of a car, not how close you can get to real-life times.
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What? lol
 
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