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[xenorevlis]

Got your work cut out for you :lol.

Well, maybe not "try my best" but then again, "absurdly wrong" means mostly smaller technical details I'm aware of :lol

 

[Scottlarock]

Thats GT5, you haven't played it, so don't claim it doesn't look like that. Oh and Destructoid, those trees/trunks look embarrassing? Looks fine to me.

you've played it tell me more, please.

 

[AMUSIX]

anyone can make car models. Literally, anyone who knows how to model can make a fucking car model.

Half the fucktards I go to school with couldn't come up with an interesting concept to save their life, but if you looked at their portfolio 9/10 will have their favorite fucking sports car on there for you to ooh and ahhh over. Give me a fucking break.

It takes no fucking talent or creativity to copy the design of another human being into your vidja game, it just takes technical know-how and quite a time sink.


This is where GT5 and FMS3 differ TREMENDOUSLY. Forza looks like it was made by the same unimaginative fucktards that I go to school with. It's tepid, bland, and unintersting. It's a sim like any other sim.

Somehow, GT5 rises above that despite being even more dedicated to realism and having the exact same subject matter. It has style, grace, sophistication, and gushes with sheer love for driving that no other racing game could hope to match. Every single detail down to the fucking lugnuts is crafted with the utmost care a lover of automobiles could muster.

It's the reason GT takes half a decade to make and Forza comes around every fucking fiscal year.

I've got to ask...did anyone read the bolded part and expect the rest of the post to go the opposite direction than it did?

 

[longdi]

That's not the part that was being disputed - the model / texture swapping (which has been proven to occur) is what was "lied" about. Che was probably just misinformed as he is not a software engineer, nor something with much technical background based on his posting.

Most racing games do this for LOD, including Shift (which is ugly when details pop in at the start). However, in order to handle the increased fidelity of Forza 3 the model swapping happens more rigorously, plus I've personally watched cars "disappear" and pop back into existance while passing behind other vehicles. Not sure why, but it was during replay mode and I have not caught the same during gameplay.

That is a poor excuse imho. If we see below, no need a software engineer to tell gameplay graphics are different from menu and photomode, certainly proven after the just released public demo led to cries of lies from the community. Che being asked repeatedly still say gameplay graphics retain the same quality as menu, not very nice gesture of someone given the role to communicate with fans.

 

[Lion Heart]

you've played it tell me more, please.

ya, I should wait to see if those trees will be downscaled...

 

[Andronicus]

I love this thread, makes me feel better about myself.

 

[xenorevlis]

That is a poor excuse imho. If we see below, no need a software engineer to tell gameplay graphics are different from menu and photomode, certainly proven after the just released public demo led to cries of lies from the community. Che being asked repeatedly still say gameplay graphics retain the same quality as menu, not very nice gesture of someone given the role to communicate with fans.

Hey, I'm not trying to make any excuses up for him. That is simply the most obvious reason he'd be wrong, aside from outright relaying false information. Most often things of this nature are incorrect between PR and developers due to simple communication errors.

Either way, he was wrong and it obviously swaps models but it still looks beautiful in motion. To make some car porn the enhanced models are used and I'm fine with that!

 

[AMUSIX]

That is a poor excuse imho. If we see below, no need a software engineer to tell gameplay graphics are different from menu and photomode, certainly proven after the just released public demo led to cries of lies from the community. Che being asked repeatedly still say gameplay graphics retain the same quality as menu, not very nice gesture of someone given the role to communicate with fans.

I've been following Forza fairly closely (say, enough to get a B in the class) but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. I don't recall him ever saying the garage or menu models were the ones used on the track.

The thing he DID say, and what isn't happening in the demo for one reason or another, is that the photo mode models are the same ones used during a race...that photo mode did not swap in a higher poly/more detailed model. He has also stated that various videos we've seen were replay or gameplay with custom cameras.

Now, since we only have a demo, and that demo doesn't have photo mode, we don't know if this is true or not. However, from what we do have, it looks as if Che posted misinformation. If so, this could be due to one of a few reasons:
1. Che wasn't aware of the swap. It's possible, as he'd have no reason to A/B gameplay captures with photo mode shots if he thought that no swap happened in the first place...the difference is very noticeable in screenshots, yes, but in motion, it may be possible to overlook it.
2. Che was flat-out lying. Possible, but very, very odd...and something that would jeapordize his job. Since there's no history of outright lies, by Che or by Turn 10, this would probably be the most shocking explanation.
3. The demo is a rather early build. This really wouldn't be unheard of, though to show suh an inferior demo would be a strange decision by Turn 10 and Microsoft. It would, however, provide the most explanation for the reasons why there's such a huge difference between the demo and all the media we've seen to date.


Most Sony fanboys (and most 'hurt' Xbox fanboys) will race to say that option 2 is right. For myself, calling an individual or a company a liar with no history of such is a huge leap. The other detail that strikes me as odd is that if the game does swap in a higher detail model for photo mode, why wouldn't it do the same for all vehicles present? We've already seen that, in photo mode, distance defines LOD, and that even AI cars close to the lense are higher LOD. This is a very strong indicator that no swap is happening.

Of course, that doesn't answer why the demo is the way it is. As far as I know, there's been no statement made, and the final build of the game has yet to be seen.

 

[akachan ningen]

2. Che was flat-out lying. Possible, but very, very odd...and something that would jeopardize his job.

Unless they told him to lie.

 

[KHarvey16]

Unless they told him to lie.

Because distrust of their community manager is a good business decision.

 

[AMUSIX]

Unless they told him to lie.

As I said, there's no history of it from the person or from the company. And him being told to lie would be even more incredible, especially in an industry where having little to no communication is the norm.

I honestly think we're not going to get a proper explanation of what is happening before Monday.

 

[kever0nicas]

Threads like this is why I love visiting gaf.

Subscribed.

 

[akachan ningen]

I honestly think we're not going to get a proper explanation of what is happening before Monday.

I'm guessing never. They won't even address it unless one of the blogs picks up the story and posts some comparisons.

 

[longdi]

Hey, I'm not trying to make any excuses up for him. That is simply the most obvious reason he'd be wrong, aside from outright relaying false information. Most often things of this nature are incorrect between PR and developers due to simple communication errors.

Either way, he was wrong and it obviously swaps models but it still looks beautiful in motion. To make some car porn the enhanced models are used and I'm fine with that!

Then i can only say it is not very professional of him to just rely on his developers information. Based on the replies, anyone who played the game can spot the drop in models, so even if he repeat what his developers tell him, he should question them back after he played the game and hearing the fans' requests, unless he is stationed at a different and hard to communicate site from Turn10 and never actually play the game enough.

What i think is he is just skirting with the english language just as any PR mole will do, when we hear his delayed reply to this backlash, it is probably like 'there is gameplay models which is the same as photomode and then there is racing gameplay which our engine use dynamic LOD to balance performance blahblahblah'. Now if he had made that clear earlier when the fans were eager to find out more about Forza3 improvements, this backlash would not happen.

Whatever the excuse is, this has left a black mark in the credibility of community managers and also Turn 10 words. Anyone still remember MS E3 and that Turn 10 guy? I found him annoying and as i said earlier, desperate for attention.

 

[KHarvey16]

Then i can only say it is not very professional of him to just rely on his developers information. Based on the replies, anyone who played the game can spot the drop in models, so even if he repeat what his developers tell him, he should question them back after he played the game and hearing the fans' requests, unless he is stationed at a different and hard to communicate site from Turn10 and never actually play the game enough.

What i think is he is just skirting with the english language just as any PR mole will do, when we hear his delayed reply to this backlash, it is probably like 'there is gameplay models which is the same as photomode and then there is racing gameplay which our engine use dynamic LOD to balance performance blahblahblah'. Now if he had made that clear earlier when the fans were eager to find out more about Forza3 improvements, this backlash would not happen.

Whatever the excuse is, this has left a black mark in the credibility of community managers and also Turn 10 words. Anyone still remember MS E3 and that Turn 10 guy? I found him annoying and as i said earlier, desperate for attention.

AMUSIX just made a post that summarizes the situation nicely. I think we need to wait until we either hear a response from Che addressing this or a reasonable amount of time has passed to make it clear there is no plan to respond(say...over a week from the end of TGS). If it so happens there is a problem I'm sure it's in Turn10's best interest to look into it before making any comments. Additionally if it's just ignored I'm sure Che will have a hard time being affective at his job here on GAF.

 

[eso76]

small pics don't show how bad it is.

But i blame the meltdown on the stupid closeup cameras; game looks totally fine from regular replay and gameplay perspectives and absolutely the same game we saw in trailers (which however were a bit misleading, mixing gameplay models seen from a distance and closeups of extra high lod models). Had t10 not included those people wouldn't be raging at the way the game was advertised.

It's not like we had unrealistic expectations either, since If gt5 can get 16 cars on track with similar geometry as seen in fm3 menus (through some clever lod menagement, of course, but still) then fm3 could surely deal with 8, during 30fps replays at least.
Damn, even only using a high lod model for the car you're currently focusing onto.
As it is, T10 lost some credibility. While the game still plays a lot better than its rivals to me, it's hard to get over the way we were lied to in all these months.

 

[Insertia]

Lol. Wow Che, you fucked up the rep for your product.

Being a community manager must suck at points like these. :lol

^^
The ingame MINI looks horrendous BTW.

 

[imtehman]

Have you played Prologue in 1080p?

1280x1080P indeEEd!

 

[ector]

Looks like the same models to me - but with different tesselation settings. This game probably uses the hardware tesselation (generate more triangles to smooth curves) feature of the Xbox 360 to get the extreme polycounts, and it's set to max for menus but is not allowed to exceed some value in gameplay to keep the framerates up.

So, it's the same source geometry, but it's uptesselated in the menus.

 

[longdi]

AMUSIX just made a post that summarizes the situation nicely. I think we need to wait until we either hear a response from Che addressing this or a reasonable amount of time has passed to make it clear there is no plan to respond(say...over a week from the end of TGS). If it so happens there is a problem I'm sure it's in Turn10's best interest to look into it before making any comments. Additionally if it's just ignored I'm sure Che will have a hard time being affective at his job here on GAF.

Imo the only satisfactory explanation is an older build demo and the final game lives up to the promises. That would shut all haters up and some of us may go back to hating Yamuachi jetsetting ways. :lol

Any other explanations will sound like damage control and skirting PR language, does nothing for Che credibility. Sorry Che, not hating on you as i dont know you as a person but it is all gaming talk and when i talk games on GAF it is serious business!!!

 

[sinnergy]

Looks like the same models to me - but with different tesselation settings. This game probably uses the hardware tesselation (generate more triangles to smooth curves) feature of the Xbox 360 to get the extreme polycounts, and it's set to max for menus but is not allowed to exceed some value in gameplay to keep the framerates up.

So, it's the same source geometry, but it's uptesselated in the menus.

Maybe.. but let's say you do time trail with only your car on the track.. you could set tesselation to maximum.. which is not the case. I just tested this in the replay.

 

[akachan ningen]

Imo the only satisfactory explanation is an older build demo and the final game lives up to the promises. That would shut all haters up and some of us may go back to hating Yamuachi jetsetting ways. :lol

Any other explanations will sound like damage control and skirting PR language, does nothing for Che credibility. Sorry Che, not hating on you as i dont know you as a person but it is all gaming talk and when i talk games on GAF it is serious business!!!

The worst thing is that I know he's watching this thread like a hawk and won't answer. A few pages back, bish asks a question out of the blue and che pops up out of nowhere to answer it and claims that he hasn't been reading the thread and just happened to be there as bish was asking that question. After the questions from everyone else start pouring in, he disappears again.

 

[AMUSIX]

Then i can only say it is not very professional of him to just rely on his developers information. Based on the replies, anyone who played the game can spot the drop in models, so even if he repeat what his developers tell him, he should question them back after he played the game and hearing the fans' requests, unless he is stationed at a different and hard to communicate site from Turn10 and never actually play the game enough.

Really not true.

At E3, Gamescom, and a number of other showings, F3 was played by the game media and rabid fanboys alike. Quite a few of whom were the type to scrutinize heavily for their work, their blog, or just for message boards. This issue had not been raised at any of those showings, so either it's minimal enough for everyone, critics and fanboys, to have overlooked it, or the demo is in some way different than the code they were taking to public showings.

There could easily be some odd issue with the demo that is not present in the final release, or something arose late in development that forced the final release to have such a drastic change.

 

[ector]

Maybe.. but let's say you do time trail with only your car on the track.. you could set tesselation to maximum.. which is not the case. I just tested this in the replay.

Yeah, you could. Don't know why they don't do this. It would be possible to fix in a patch though.

 

[eso76]

this is what i mean when i say the game still doesn't look half bad through regular replay cameras

so, yeah, i'd say people wouldn't be complaining too much if they didn't have the chance to scrutinize models up close with those stupid custom cameras.

sorry for the quality, i'm using my cellphone camera

 

[imtehman]

The worst thing is that I know he's watching this thread like a hawk and won't answer. A few pages back, bish asks a question out of the blue and che pops up out of nowhere to answer it and claims that he hasn't been reading the thread and just happened to be there as bish was asking that question. After the questions from everyone else start pouring in, he disappears again.

i'm guessing you know how he would act from personal experience? :lol

 

[sportzhead]

I guess che is too good for GAF to post a response here, but he was talking over at the F3 forum. This is what he had to say. It seems he is now taking the humble approach.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/5/2975508/ShowThread.aspx#2975508

Just like any game in existence, LOD models are unavoidable, but I believe all the videos we've released so far have been in-game and real-time (not the obviously CG rendered videos from E3).

At any rate, a lot of folks are happy with the demo and the graphics, etc. while others are disappointed. Like they say, you can't please everyone but thanks for trying the game.

The demo is visually representative of the full-game so racing in-game won't look much different.

I don't see that many jaggies on my multiple TVs at home and at work, but everyone's setups can be varied.

I guess that's the thing. Overall, when I'm racing around the track, my eyes are not bleeding. I am a fairly big graphics ***. I love taking photos in photomode. Games with bad graphics distract me from my experience. That said, when I play FM3, I do not think about how awful the graphics are or low in-game car models, etc. simply because the overall effect is that the game looks good.Can it look better? Yes, totally and I agree it is not perfect. But does it justify the vitriol of some of the threads I've scanned this morning? I'm not sure that it does. Everyone has their own opinion on the matter and that's fine and there's not much I can say except I hope you'll give the final game a chance and have fun with it.

Screenshots released so far have been photomode shots so yes that's what you'll see in exported replays and photomode. I should actually release some exported replay WMVs since they look really good and will give you an idea what you'll be able to do once the game comes out.

This quote sucks. He is basically saying exported photos and replays look much better than the actual game. So during in game replays the game doesn't even look as good as an exported replay. So to really see how good F3 can look we have to export everything to a PC or stare at the menu screens.


Turn 10 this is not cool. Why did you model all these amazingly detailed cars just to be looked at and not actually used in game? So disappointed. As someone who played the hell out of F2, the screen of F3 had me believing the game was going to feature a nice graphical bump. But in game it really doesn't look to much better than F2. Don't get me wrong, the game doesn't look bad, but to me it just looks like more of the same with added polish.

 

[mrklaw]

RalliSport Challenge 2 has better lighting than both of these games, IMO.

I don't think it does, but I think it has some of the best collision/rollover stuff I've ever seen. It depicts the energy you'd expect to see in a high speed rollover like nothing else - perhaps burnout but thats a bit fake.

 

[mrklaw]

Lol. That proves nothing. You've been trolling Forza/forza fans in this entire thread, but never said anything about GT fans. How surprising. Stop telling lessons about hypocrisy when you're an hypocrite yourself.

He's an equal opportunity hater. Personally it grates after a while, but I only hope its through love and a desire to experience greatness that he shits on everything from a great height.

 

[m0dus]

Now people are screaming about active LOD? Seriously? The cars look clean during the race, they look great during replays, and the high-fidelity models are used in the photo mode. Why exactly anyone would any sort of issue over it isn't quite clear--well, save for those just looking for an issue to harp on.

and really, anyone saying this looks like F2, truly, you need to pop that game in (assuming you've actually played it) and the differences between the two are truly stark.

Lamentations over the downward spiral this thread has locked into aside, not since Fight Night have I spent so much time with a freaking demo. The full game is going to be sublime. The March delay works well for anyone actually interested in these games, because it will afford us ample time to savor them both.

 

[mrklaw]

thank you for the repost. gtp = best car lighting. forza 3 = best environments. i'll enjoy both for their respective strengths.

Spoiler

oh, and their gameplay as well

Ignoring graphics (shock horror) - what are people's expectations on gameplay? Handling, AI and - fun? I know we only have the demo for Forza 3, and GT5P + extrapolating from rumours/dev comments for GT5, but I can't help feeling GT is a little 'sterile' sometimes.

I don't have a 360 and would prefer to not rebuy one just for Forza (and maybe a bit of halo), but I would if it is more involving than GT, more 'fun'.

I guess I'll just wait for the full Forza game to come out and hear fuller impressions

 

[Raist]

I guess you don't get it either. My schedule this week has not allowed me to be 'obsessive-compulsive' with my posting habits. I have some time this morning to look in on some of the chatter and I saw Bish's question so I answered it.

I have not looked through this entire thread, and judging by responses like yours, I probably won't want to either. Seems like flamebaiting is the norm here so I should probably just refrain. :lol

Also, if people think the game looks bad, okay. And...?

The irony in this single little sentence is out of this world.

Anyway. I think that FM3's models look great, not on a GT5 level, but T10 doesn't have the experience (and probably nowhere near thes same amount of modelers) of PD either.
The main problem of Forza's graphics for me is the lighting. Can't put my finger on it, but it looks somewhat off and ruins the realistic look of the game.

 

[bishoptl]

Lamentations over the downward spiral this thread has locked into aside, not since Fight Night have I spent so much time with a freaking demo.

Hey, hey! I started this thread at the bottom! And we've been digging frantically ever since!

 

[Xun]

Hey, hey! I started this thread at the bottom! And we've been digging frantically ever since!

I thank you so much for starting it.

It has been beautiful.

 

[Diablohead]

I guess che is too good for GAF to post a response here, but he was talking over at the F3 forum. This is what he had to say. It seems he is now taking the humble approach.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/5/2975508/ShowThread.aspx#2975508







This quote sucks. He is basically saying exported photos and replays look much better than the actual game. So during in game replays the game doesn't even look as good as an exported replay. So to really see how good F3 can look we have to export everything to a PC or stare at the menu screens.


Turn 10 this is not cool. Why did you model all these amazingly detailed cars just to be looked at and not actually used in game? So disappointed. As someone who played the hell out of F2, the screen of F3 had me believing the game was going to feature a nice graphical bump. But in game it really doesn't look to much better than F2. Don't get me wrong, the game doesn't look bad, but to me it just looks like more of the same with added polish.

Hm so photo mode and video exporting does bump up the visuals, I guess that awnsers my questions about the game and replay mode.

It's a shame only now we are told about it, I feel that the player's car in a replay could look so much better (at 30fps as it is right now) :/

 

[Raist]

Hey, hey! I started this thread at the bottom! And we've been digging frantically ever since!

If we dig enough we'll end up in Australia. I don't want to, do something

 

[senahorse]

If we dig enough we'll end up in Australia. I don't want to, do something

Don't worry, we don't want you guys here either, it's crazy up in this thread. :lol

 

[BeeDog]

I thank you so much for starting it.

It has been beautiful.

 

[Atrophis]

Now people are screaming about active LOD? Seriously? The cars look clean during the race, they look great during replays, and the high-fidelity models are used in the photo mode. Why exactly anyone would any sort of issue over it isn't quite clear--well, save for those just looking for an issue to harp on.

Its an issue because Che led us to believe the photo mode car model is whats used during gameplay. This isnt true.

If Che had just stated that the models are different, then we wouldnt have half the fuss there is.

Its not an issue with LOD. Everyone knows and expects there will be active LOD in the game. But when the highest LOD model is lower then the photo mode model, stated to be what you drive, then theres bound to be disappointment.

Question: what does the replay mode add to justify its drop to 30fps if it doesnt bump up the car models?

 

[Fess]

is it fun to play?

 

[Corky]

is it fun to play?

silence fool! Fun has nothing to do with games... havent you learned anything from this thread. You've failed Bish )

 

[TheSeks]

The ingame MINI looks horrendous BTW.

Because it has a "fucked up" headlight?

Yeah, no. It looks fine. It may not be "LOL OMG THE HIGH LEVEL OF DETAIL" that Turn 10/whoever threw out the screenshots/promo images have, but in motion the game is fine from the demo.

Note: That doesn't mean that the graphics are "ZOMG GOOD," they're passable and better than Forza Motorsport 2 by a jump. But they aren't "OMG BAD" like people make them out to be. Yeah, some of the AI cars look low poly in motion, but you should be more focused on getting that car around the track than seeing the pretty graphics until the replay.

 

[Chinner]

Hey, hey! I started this thread at the bottom! And we've been digging frantically ever since!

if i dig upwards will i get to your heart?

 

[Barso]

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to Che for the demo.
Because before the demo was released I had the collector's edition pre-ordered on the basis of your reports and pictures.
Thanks Che you have saved me £40 and my patience on waiting for your game.
Pre-order now cancelled.
Sorry Che but I found the demo a total disappointment and nothing like what you and your team advertised.
Your obvious bullshots might be good enough for magazine covers but please, please, please at least admit that you guys pulled a fast one.
Hopefully the next xbox and forza 3 will be the massive jump your crave.

 

[senahorse]

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to Che for the demo.
Because before the demo was released I had the collector's edition pre-ordered on the basis of your reports and pictures.
Thanks Che you have saved me £40 and my patience on waiting for your game.
Pre-order now cancelled.
Sorry Che but I found the demo a total disappointment and nothing like what you and your team advertised.
Hopefully the next xbox and forza 3 will be the massive jump your crave.

Shit just got serious.

 

[ector]

Its an issue because Che led us to believe the photo mode car model is whats used during gameplay. This isnt true.

I'm 99% sure it's the same models, they're just uptesselated in photo mode/menu (automatically generate more triangles to smooth out curves). So technically, he wasn't lying

 

[Diablohead]

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to Che for the demo.
Because before the demo was released I had the collector's edition pre-ordered on the basis of your reports and pictures.
Thanks Che you have saved me £40 and my patience on waiting for your game.
Pre-order now cancelled.
Sorry Che but I found the demo a total disappointment and nothing like what you and your team advertised.
Your obvious bullshots might be good enough for magazine covers but please, please, please at least admit that you guys pulled a fast one.
Hopefully the next xbox and forza 3 will be the massive jump your crave.

I honestly feel the same way but only enough to drop from a LE to a regular version.

 

[Thomaticus~]

I don't think there should be any versus, until the final products hit the shelves. For now it should be Forza 3 vs GT5P.

I do wonder if FM3 will be in true HD, or will it reach that 60FPS by being put in 640p, or 520p... you know.. the usual tricks..

 

[saunderez]

I'm 99% sure it's the same models, they're just uptesselated in photo mode/menu (automatically generate more triangles to smooth out curves). So technically, he wasn't lying

I agree. It's ridiculous to even think that they have deliberately gone and made 2 models of the 400+ cars in the game just so they can have a higher detail car in the menus.

 

[Interfectum]

anyone can make car models. Literally, anyone who knows how to model can make a fucking car model.

Half the fucktards I go to school with couldn't come up with an interesting concept to save their life, but if you looked at their portfolio 9/10 will have their favorite fucking sports car on there for you to ooh and ahhh over. Give me a fucking break.

It takes no fucking talent or creativity to copy the design of another human being into your vidja game, it just takes technical know-how and quite a time sink.


This is where GT5 and FMS3 differ TREMENDOUSLY. Forza looks like it was made by the same unimaginative fucktards that I go to school with. It's tepid, bland, and unintersting. It's a sim like any other sim.

Somehow, GT5 rises above that despite being even more dedicated to realism and having the exact same subject matter. It has style, grace, sophistication, and gushes with sheer love for driving that no other racing game could hope to match. Every single detail down to the fucking lugnuts is crafted with the utmost care a lover of automobiles could muster.

It's the reason GT takes half a decade to make and Forza comes around every fucking fiscal year.

Nailed it

Forza's great if all you own is a 360 but let's not pretend it's something it isn't