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[Revelations]

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to Che for the demo.
Because before the demo was released I had the collector's edition pre-ordered on the basis of your reports and pictures.
Thanks Che you have saved me £40 and my patience on waiting for your game.
Pre-order now cancelled.
Sorry Che but I found the demo a total disappointment and nothing like what you and your team advertised.
Your obvious bullshots might be good enough for magazine covers but please, please, please at least admit that you guys pulled a fast one.
Hopefully the next xbox and forza 3 will be the massive jump your crave.

LOL, juniors. :lol

 

[Hypno Funk]

A rough diamond is more valuable than a polished turd!

As long as the gameplay holds up I'm looking forward to Forza 3.
GT5 may look better, but i've always prefered the way the cars in Forza handle, which in turn makes for a better experience for myself.

 

[Interfectum]

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to Che for the demo.
Because before the demo was released I had the collector's edition pre-ordered on the basis of your reports and pictures.
Thanks Che you have saved me £40 and my patience on waiting for your game.
Pre-order now cancelled.
Sorry Che but I found the demo a total disappointment and nothing like what you and your team advertised.
Your obvious bullshots might be good enough for magazine covers but please, please, please at least admit that you guys pulled a fast one.
Hopefully the next xbox and forza 3 will be the massive jump your crave.

You're not alone actually I know a lot of friends have cancelled their pre order on the evidence of the demo (though they don't who Che is).

To 1% of people trees are the most important visual aspect of a racer.

To the other 99%, it's the cars you're racing against.

 

[Maastricht]

The bitching about che is completely off-topic folks. This thread is only for being a bitch about GT5 vs Forza 3

When it comes to that, the most important differences I can see are in the lighting and reflections. Under bright circumstances where the car has real-time reflections calculated in, Forza 3's cars look quite good. Under these circumstances, the main difference with Gran Turismo 5 seems to be that the color depth in GT looks to be 16bit HDR, where Forza seems to use the 360's 10bit HDR mode. Also, the HDR in GT is much more dynamic - if you look around from your car you'll notice that the HDR uses dynamic contrast; the effect you get when you drive out of a tunnel is actually there and omnipresent and helps to improve the global illumination simulation also I think. In this respect, the lighting in Gran Turismo is really still quite a bit more advanced.

As soon as they have an angle where there are no reflections however, or when the cars drive in the shadow, the Forza 3 cars really don't look great. I came home with my son yesterday and looked at my car and noticed how the reflections and lighting are really quite similar to when the car is in the sun - you still see a tonne of reflections and so on. But in Forza 3, the reflections on cars seem to basically disappear in the shadows. This ruins the illusion - the car's material no longer resembles its real-life counterpart, and it starts to look like some kind of matte plastic. It's strange, because I get the impression that this could be something that is relatively easy to fix - just make sure that there are always reflections visible. I wonder if maybe there's not enough resolution in the shading model for this in the graphics engine, or whether this is just a plain oversight?

Anyway, especially this latter issue is my biggest complaint about Forza 3. I don't mind that it isn't quite up to GT5 Prologue's standard - at least it's making significant steps forward. However, in terms of the internal consistency of the graphics, this is the biggest standout issue (cockpit view lighting is also a bit weak, but I'm grateful for the cockpit view nonetheless and it's less important).

Otherwise I feel that in the demo there's been a good balance between cars and environment and the overall impression of the graphics is pretty decent. To quote my lovely wife who has absolutely no clue about graphics, "the lighting isn't as good [as Gran Turismo], but the vegetation looks better" :lol

 

[Chinner]

You're not alone actually I know a lot of friends have cancelled their pre order on the evidence of the demo (though they don't who Che is).

To 1% of people trees are the most important visual aspect of a racer.

To the other 99%, it's the cars you're racing against.

i actually knew about 100 + people who were really hyped for forza 3 but when they played the demo they were like "graphics no gud" and when i asked them about the gameplay they didn't really know what i was talking about. anyway to make a long story short i told them to get mario kart and now they're playing the DEFINITIVE non-capitalist racing game.

 

[AnnSwag]

Gran Turismo is the champ and the originator, I think Forza looks great, I'll prob. Get it but Poliphony's team are perfectionist and really nurture there product to the fullest. I'm going to make a bold claim and say that once GT5 hits along with PS3 Slim, It will remain champ and save PS3 which will in turn begin to truly pull ahead of Xbox 360 in the consoles sold world wide.

 

[Dra-Q]

The bitching about che is completely off-topic folks. This thread is only for being a bitch about GT5 vs Forza 3

Maybe Che shouldn't have bitched about GT5 in the first place and what about his viral marketing lies on GAF? Dennis Dyack was banned, cause he talked trash, Che should be banned too.

 

[theignoramus]

I've been following Forza fairly closely (say, enough to get a B in the class) but I'm pretty sure this isn't the case. I don't recall him ever saying the garage or menu models were the ones used on the track.

The thing he DID say, and what isn't happening in the demo for one reason or another, is that the photo mode models are the same ones used during a race...that photo mode did not swap in a higher poly/more detailed model. He has also stated that various videos we've seen were replay or gameplay with custom cameras.

Now, since we only have a demo, and that demo doesn't have photo mode, we don't know if this is true or not. However, from what we do have, it looks as if Che posted misinformation. If so, this could be due to one of a few reasons:
1. Che wasn't aware of the swap. It's possible, as he'd have no reason to A/B gameplay captures with photo mode shots if he thought that no swap happened in the first place...the difference is very noticeable in screenshots, yes, but in motion, it may be possible to overlook it.
2. Che was flat-out lying. Possible, but very, very odd...and something that would jeapordize his job. Since there's no history of outright lies, by Che or by Turn 10, this would probably be the most shocking explanation.
3. The demo is a rather early build. This really wouldn't be unheard of, though to show suh an inferior demo would be a strange decision by Turn 10 and Microsoft. It would, however, provide the most explanation for the reasons why there's such a huge difference between the demo and all the media we've seen to date.


Most Sony fanboys (and most 'hurt' Xbox fanboys) will race to say that option 2 is right. For myself, calling an individual or a company a liar with no history of such is a huge leap. The other detail that strikes me as odd is that if the game does swap in a higher detail model for photo mode, why wouldn't it do the same for all vehicles present? We've already seen that, in photo mode, distance defines LOD, and that even AI cars close to the lense are higher LOD. This is a very strong indicator that no swap is happening.

Of course, that doesn't answer why the demo is the way it is. As far as I know, there's been no statement made, and the final build of the game has yet to be seen.

Now that I've read Che's "explanations", I assume it was simply a misstep in a massive PR campaign meant to support and promote Greenawalt's boasting.
He did brag that his game was the best looking racing sim on consoles.

“We’ve got the best physics. We’ve got the best graphics. We’ve got the most cars. We’ve got the most tracks. We’ve got an online community that is unparalleled not just in racing but in gaming in general. Nobody does things with user-generated content the way we do.”

“I’ll stand behind this and say there is no racing game that’ll look better on any console.”

 

[Fess]

To 1% of people trees are the most important visual aspect of a racer.

To the other 99%, it's the cars you're racing against.

Uhm... what about the gameplay? AI of the other cars? multiplayer options? car physics? tuning options? No? Not important?

 

[LordPhoque]

You're not alone actually I know a lot of friends have cancelled their pre order on the evidence of the demo (though they don't who Che is).

To 1% of people trees are the most important visual aspect of a racer.

To the other 99%, it's the cars you're racing against.

It's funny because posts like that are making the game looking bad. Stop the hypocrisy, the game looks great. Who cares about some PR Che made in the past. Unbiased and decently made comparisons on this thread proved that it's pretty much on par with GT5, if not better when it comes to the environnments. It's more than enough, knowing the gameplay and physics qualities.

And yeah, everybody cancelled pre-order because of the demo. :lol Did you read the demo impressions thread ? Most of the people are just amazed by the demo, and it seems that u mad.

 

[Dabanton]

I just want to say a big THANK YOU to Che for the demo.
Because before the demo was released I had the collector's edition pre-ordered on the basis of your reports and pictures.
Thanks Che you have saved me £40 and my patience on waiting for your game.
Pre-order now cancelled.
Sorry Che but I found the demo a total disappointment and nothing like what you and your team advertised.
Your obvious bullshots might be good enough for magazine covers but please, please, please at least admit that you guys pulled a fast one.
Hopefully the next xbox and forza 3 will be the massive jump your crave.

Barso. Why are you buying games for a system you don't own anymore?

 

[senahorse]

Barso. Why are you buying games for a system you don't own anymore?

I sold my 360 because I was fed up with the hardware problems and live not being worth it, what's wrong with that?

:lol

 

[LordPhoque]

:lol

:lol

 

[TheSeks]

Barso. Why are you buying games for a system you don't own anymore?

Oh wow. :lol

Uhm... what about the gameplay? AI of the other cars? multiplayer options? car physics? tuning options? No? Not important?

*ThisisNeoGAFdude.gif*

You could have the most realistic driving simulator out there on the market, but if it looks like an NES game GAF would bitch.

GAF is supported by shiny/pretty things. It's why Killzone 2 got some hype around here.

Spoiler

Yes, I went there.

 

[avaya]

the minority always shout the loudest.

 

[Interfectum]

Unbiased and decently made comparisons on this thread proved that it's pretty much on par with GT5

:lol

It's not even on par with GT5P let alone GT5 which has had a further 2 years of development

 

[AndyD]

I'm 99% sure it's the same models, they're just uptesselated in photo mode/menu (automatically generate more triangles to smooth out curves). So technically, he wasn't lying

Maybe, maybe not.

A lot of the small detail that is modeled in 3d in menus, like those little tow hook covers become a flat spot on the livery in game. Not just fewer triangles, but complete lack of 3d parts. Look at the original comparison with the Porsche and Ferrari. Also, tail lights and headlights lose modeled parts. And the windows go tinted to presumably save them from modeling interiors and drivers fully.

The biggest thing I think is the significant and noticeable change in the livery quality and the tinting of the windows. Its the two most immediately noticeable things. The tinting goes away if you switch to in car camera, which makes no sense and is inconsistent.

The good thing I guess is that the high res models exist, so maybe they will use them for the next game.

 

[Raist]

Barso. Why are you buying games for a system you don't own anymore?

ouch

 

[Barso]

Because it has just been sold.
I only kept it for the exclusives but with exclusives like ODST and now F3 being total disappointments the sale of my 360 and games is now going towards a GTX300.
But thanks for asking and I hope my post history keeps you amused.

 

[LordPhoque]

:lol

It's not even on par with GT5P let alone GT5 which has had a further 2 years of development

That must be why you have hundred of posts in this thread :lol

 

[Xun]

Because it has just been sold.
I only kept it for the exclusives but with exclusives like ODST and now F3 being total disappointments the sale of my 360 and games is now going towards a GTX300.
But thanks for asking and I hope my post history keeps you amused.

You'll fit in well here junior.

:lol

 

[Interfectum]

It's not just the graphics Forza fans are complaining about either

http://www.vgarabia.com/2009/09/26/forza-iii-damage-system-looks-too-old/

After I played FORZAIII demo more than 10 times, something weird caught my attention in the damage system, and I will not hide that I felt a certain dissatisfaction with the size of development and improvement happened since FORZAII which was characterized by the unique damage system it had at that time, but that was in 2007 and what was “unique” before is simply “Not enough” right now specially after we experienced games like GRID and DIRT 2 and they both offer a much deeper damage system than the one in FORZAIII demo, it’s obvious that FORZAIII improved so much in so many aspects, but I think they didn’t pay enough attentions to the damage system.

You can simply try to test the demo yourself, and I think you will probably notice the following:


- You crash head on into another car and all what you will see is paint scratches!
- You hit the rear right light in the car in front of you then the other one simply broke even you didn’t touch it.
- Any accident no matter how awful it is, can’t affect the length of the chassis.
- Lights sometimes survive a huge direct hit, while they may be broke in a silly indirect collision.

Well, don’t call me a GT5 fan, I think you better call me a disappointed FORZAIII fan who is affected by every minor fail in the game -not to mention that I didn’t notice any gear shifting animation- maybe it’s my fault because I thought the game will be just PERFECT, but simply it isn’t, and I can say that GT5 “Destructio Derby” footage are not that bad after all!

FORZAII Demo Damage footage back in 2007, I don’t think that FORZAIII improved alot!

What have they been doing for 2 years - obviously not learning the meaning of the word 'definitive'

 

[Xun]

It's not just the graphics Forza fans are complaining about either

http://www.vgarabia.com/2009/09/26/forza-iii-damage-system-looks-too-old/



What have they been doing for 2 years - obviously not learning the meaning of the word 'definitive'

You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.

 

[Dabanton]

Interfectum your complete and utter hatred of Forza is breathtaking.

I don't think i've ever seen someone hate a game with such vitriol before, It's astounding.

I bet at this moment you are trawling the net slowly and methodically looking for more bad Forza news to bring to us here.

 

[Interfectum]

Ad hominem attacks - you guys take this stuff way too personally :lol

It's just a game and this thread is about both games so try focusing on those instead of the people posting

Of course if you don't like the content of dicussion in this thread then don't click on it - there are official threads that cater to your sensibilities

 

[SuperÑ]

It is hard to believe what i am reading in this thread. I want to punch somebody in the face.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Because it has just been sold.
I only kept it for the exclusives but with exclusives like ODST and now F3 being total disappointments the sale of my 360 and games is now going towards a GTX300.
But thanks for asking and I hope my post history keeps you amused.

:lol

This thread really shows some of the bottled up emotions. I know there are plenty of fanboys on both sides but this thread is something else.

 

[[Nintex]]

It is hard to believe what i am reading in this thread. I want to punch somebody in the face.

It's getting worse by the day and I love this train car wreck.

Because it has just been sold.
I only kept it for the exclusives but with exclusives like ODST and now F3 being total disappointments the sale of my 360 and games is now going towards a GTX300.
But thanks for asking and I hope my post history keeps you amused.

That GTX300 is coming out right around the time that GT5 launches while I'm already rocking with both my HD5850 and Forza 3 for months!

Gran Turismo is the champ and the originator, I think Forza looks great, I'll prob. Get it but Poliphony's team are perfectionist and really nurture there product to the fullest. I'm going to make a bold claim and say that once GT5 hits along with PS3 Slim, It will remain champ and save PS3 which will in turn begin to truly pull ahead of Xbox 360 in the consoles sold world wide.

A little bird with a time machine told me that's not going to happen.

See,

So awesome

 

[theignoramus]

I'm not sure what the fuck some of you people were expecting. Did you expect the smell of roses and fair play to come out of a Gaf comparison thread involving two major system exclusives? The "OMG tis thread is a dizaster zone" posts are starting to get melodramatic.
At least in here, everyone's bias is out in the open, we don't have to deal with the subtle jabs and stealth trolls of other threads. Or do you prefer a stealthier troll to a shameless and blunt troll?

 

[StriKeVillain]

This thread is fucking crazy.

 

[Interfectum]

I'm not sure what the fuck some of you people were expecting. Did you expect the smell of roses and fair play to come out of a Gaf comparison thread involving two major system exclusives? The "OMG tis thread is a dizaster zone" posts are starting to get melodramatic.
At least in here, everyone's bias is out in the open, we don't have to deal with the subtle jabs and stealth trolls of other threads. Or do you prefer a stealthier troll to a shameless and blunt troll?

Agreed

We need an official thread for the whiners and cry babies derailing this one

 

[theignoramus]

Yes. Confirmed on B3D.

GT5 ferrari vid = pre rendered using the engine
FM3 ferrari vid = replay mode

Is this still true?
Now that we have new "insights"...

 

[Tom Penny]

People think GT5 graphics will be able to compete with this? That's crazy talk...

 

[Fess]

*ThisisNeoGAFdude.gif*

You could have the most realistic driving simulator out there on the market, but if it looks like an NES game GAF would bitch.

GAF is supported by shiny/pretty things. It's why Killzone 2 got some hype around here.

Spoiler

Yes, I went there.

Yes I know, but neither GT5 or Forza 3 looks like a nes game. And that's what I'm getting at. I will probably never understand how, when, and why graphics got this important over here. I got flamed for talking about the framerate way back at the beginning of this generation, everything ran at 30fps and I hated that, and complained about it, in almost every thread. Fare enough, I was annoying. But to me it's faaaar worse to complain about the graphics in games that look like the games below...

(Note: I know, these are probably the kind of replay bull shots that started this thread. But you should still get my point. If the graphics is the only thing worth complaining about in these games then they should both get 10/10 in every single review)

 

[CurlySaysX]

Why does the road surface in Forza look like its come straight out of motorstorm?
I wouldn't drive my car on such poor road surface let alone race on it at 200mp/h. Or are there rally tracks in the game? Although, even for a rally track the cracks on the road are excessive.

 

[equap]

what about the engine sound?

 

[theignoramus]

Screenshots released so far have been photomode shots so yes that's what you'll see in exported replays and photomode. I should actually release some exported replay WMVs since they look really good and will give you an idea what you'll be able to do once the game comes out.

What does "exported replay" mean? The Ferrari 458 video was said to be realtime replay footage, but the vehicles in it appear to be of a higher quality than the cars in the in-game replays from the demo. The cars in the 458 video look like the higher LOD models used at the very beginning of each race.

 

[user_nat]

Why does the road surface in Forza look like its come straight out of motorstorm?
I wouldn't drive my car on such poor road surface let alone race on it at 200mp/h. Or are there rally tracks in the game? Although, even for a rally track the cracks on the road are excessive.

Track looks pretty smooth to me..

 

[fastford58]

Most of you are not car enthusiasts, let alone racing game fans. That is all.

 

[theignoramus]

Are we likely to get any real in game shots for GT5 in the next couple of days or so? Sure, these cgi/in game engine high resolution bullshot renders look nice and all but they are not going to be representative of the actual driving experience.
From what i've seen. The some of the FM3 look to be more in game realistic.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[kitch9]

So what do we do if they're both good games in their own right?

 

[iamcool388]

So what do we do if they're both good games in their own right?

 

[Totobeni]

the minority always shout the loudest.

F1 fans ?

 

[m0dus]

Aaaaand now would be the moment for bish to carpetbomb this thread. Holy. Freaking. Shit. :lol

 

[h3ro]

So what do we do if they're both good games in their own right?

There you go with that logic again...

 

[Cat in the Hat]

Aaaaand now would be the moment for bish to carpetbomb this thread. Holy. Freaking. Shit. :lol

You know M0dus I find your non bias well formed opinions disgusting. Good day sir!

 

[Doc Evils]

Damn at the new scandal. We need it in the thread title.:lol

 

[longdi]

I guess che is too good for GAF to post a response here, but he was talking over at the F3 forum. This is what he had to say. It seems he is now taking the humble approach.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/5/2975508/ShowThread.aspx#2975508







This quote sucks. He is basically saying exported photos and replays look much better than the actual game. So during in game replays the game doesn't even look as good as an exported replay. So to really see how good F3 can look we have to export everything to a PC or stare at the menu screens.


Turn 10 this is not cool. Why did you model all these amazingly detailed cars just to be looked at and not actually used in game? So disappointed. As someone who played the hell out of F2, the screen of F3 had me believing the game was going to feature a nice graphical bump. But in game it really doesn't look to much better than F2. Don't get me wrong, the game doesn't look bad, but to me it just looks like more of the same with added polish.

oh my.....by arrogantly shrugging off neogaf community questions as being "too busy to be dealt with" while still active at other forums, this is an even worse blow for his credibility. Che PR days with neogaf are numbered imho. :lol

 

[WHOAguitarninja]

Why does the road surface in Forza look like its come straight out of motorstorm?
I wouldn't drive my car on such poor road surface let alone race on it at 200mp/h. Or are there rally tracks in the game? Although, even for a rally track the cracks on the road are excessive.

Clearly you've never seen Sebring.

 

[theignoramus]

OH GOD WHAT IS THIS I'M NOT VERY GOOD WITH THESE THREADS!

I'm of the opinion that Forza blew the fucking DOORS off GT since Forza 1 back on the Original X-box. For me, GT has a whole lot of catching up to do.

GT has:
Pretty cars
Simulation Mode with a map
Rallies
Online
Intergration with PS Home (most likely)
Cockpit view that was introduced in Prologue, therefore jumping Forza into doing it.

Forza has:

Online mode for career (earn online credits for auction house buying, or buying from dealer)
NO FUCKING LICENSE MODE!
Forza 1... for me... still has the best driving physics in any game with cars I've played.
Forza 1 has... REAL TIME CAR DAMAGE, something it took GT 5 games to do.
Forza has a user customizable deep layer photoshop style car customization look system. GT5 (AFAIK) will not have this system and you only have dealer colors/no bells and whistles to truly "OWN" your car.
Point to Point (Rally, whatever you want to call them, Sprint? I'll go with Sprint since NFS:Underground 2 called them that) races, which was fucking dropped from Forza 2 much to my shame.

They're about even in terms of cars and shit, but for me Forza edges out in terms of physics, dropping bullshit license tests, and simluation driving phsyics/car damage effecting the driving of that car.

I'm waiting for GT5 to try to impress me with driving physics/car damage, but the only reason I'm interested in GT5 over Forza is the Top Gear Test Track for my own "Star in a Resonable Priced Car" laps. (Something Forza fans were BEGGING Turn 10 to get, but apparently the BBC inked a deal with Polyphony?)

And that's my only post in this thread. Frankly, they're both ho-hum for me in things because they both don't have point-to-point and want us to race circuits. If I wanted to do that, I'd buy a damn Nascar game. :|

(Forza 1 had sprints that made the game feel like I was just joyriding a car, which was nice, it's too bad there wasn't a whole lot of them and Forza 2 dropped them. )

Forza 1 was a 30 fps game. How can you be serious?
:lol :lol