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[AlanzTalon]

so we get more SUVs but no wagons? what i wouldn't give to have wagons in F4.

boom, right here:

I'm curious to see how it handles! Nice addition.

Spoiler

yes, i know that is a shooting brake

 

[Iknos]

Wow, didn't notice till you said something. But now it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Its like this with all realtime car graphics.

not true and not true.
If anything fm4 still has too much direct sunlight and too little ambient light, and IBL can cover direct sunlight, depending on your hdr map

Ambient light never covers direct sunlight I'm told because direct sunlight is much brighter and masks ambient light.

BUUUT it depends on the surface too. A washed car almost acts like a mirror and so the reflections stick out so much it can mask the IBL and sunlight. A dirty car would lessen reflections and show more ambient light and direct sunlight.

sunlight by itself:

IBL by itself:

Sunlight with IBL should look similar to this:

FM4 is not doing enough direct sunlight which should mask the IBL and reflections.

So I think T10 really nailed the overcast look:

That looks a lot like the 458 in FM4 that we see in a similar environment. Nailed it.

Throw in direct sunlight like this:
http://dak.pca.org/images/Dscn9309.jpg

The color of the car should add up with the color of the sunlight and drown out a lot of the IBL stuff and tame the reflections. In the shadow that is where the IBL stuff and reflections should stick out.

Here you have direct sunlight hitting these Mustangs on RA:

Now the intensity of the sun is reduced maybe by cloud cover and notice how the IBL and reflections should stick out more:

Been asking my gfx guru friend this stuff but also checking out forums where people are modelling cars and lighting them with techniques like IBL. IBL seems to be only one part of the equation. The color of the sunlight has to add up with the color of the car to make things more seated. This effect bleaches the car and also has the effect of toning down the saturation and makes them look less cartoony and colorful. Same problem with the tracks too I think.

T10 is doing a good job and are heading in the right direction. Dont take this as a big gripe its just that IBL isn't the be all end all of getting your lighting right in a racing game.

 

[shinnn]

hummer? hmm... it will be interesting to see how the suspension will be modeled

autovista please

 

[Doodis]

oh yes i agree, but most people dont even know what TCS is and just leave it on by default then when it comes off, theyre screwed. like i had a lot of fun in forza 2 with assists, i used to create lobbies that force off all assists except ABS, would see almost every car spin on the first corner and leave the game lol

Well, at least you weren't just playing to prove your superiority over others. Oh, wait...

 

[Xanadu]

Well, at least you weren't just playing to prove your superiority over others. Oh, wait...

no because through this way i found and added a lot of people that were as serious about racing properly as me, i used to play online with a bunch of people who raced completely clean and didnt mind finishing below first. it was awesome

 

[Doodis]

no because through this way i found and added a lot of people that were as serious about racing properly as me, i used to play online with a bunch of people who raced completely clean and didnt mind finishing below first. it was awesome

I'm just giving you a hard time because I'm one of those guys that would have crashed.

 

[Iknos]

no because through this way i found and added a lot of people that were as serious about racing properly as me, i used to play online with a bunch of people who raced completely clean and didnt mind finishing below first. it was awesome

Why didn't you turn off ABS?

This is a growing debate among my friends. I think threshold braking is an important skill but ABS is too common nowadays. Just wanted to get your perspective.

 

[Xanadu]

Why didn't you turn off ABS?

This is a growing debate among my friends. I think threshold braking is an important skill but ABS is too common nowadays. Just wanted to get your perspective.

oh when i play with my friend jackus18 i turn ABS off always its just that mostly everyone hates ABS turned off, even the guys who raced clean with no traction control. i guess they just dont want to worry about it

 

[LeBoef]

no because through this way i found and added a lot of people that were as serious about racing properly as me, i used to play online with a bunch of people who raced completely clean and didnt mind finishing below first. it was awesome

Good old times. The only reason i dont like fm3 and i am goi g to love fm4.

About fm3 i thought: let it be fm2.5... All i want are cockpits
About fm4 i think: let it be fm3.5... All i want are public custom lobbies

Lol


I always looked out for non assist lobbies. Didnt care much about the classes or tracks. People were just amazing and thought about racing as i do. Thats all whatmatters for me

 

[sneaky77]

no because through this way i found and added a lot of people that were as serious about racing properly as me, i used to play online with a bunch of people who raced completely clean and didnt mind finishing below first. it was awesome

yeah my best experience was racing in Forza 1 and 2 with a group in another site, it was awesome, good clean racing

 

[Xanadu]

Good old times. The only reason i dont like fm3 and i am goi g to love fm4.

About fm3 i thought: let it be fm2.5... All i want are cockpits
About fm4 i think: let it be fm3.5... All i want are public custom lobbies

Lol


I always looked out for non assist lobbies. Didnt care much about the classes or tracks. People were just amazing and thought about racing as i do. Thats all whatmatters for me

agreed, xbox live has a really bad reputation for poty mouthed racist kids, and while there are a lot of them i found some great mature players on forza 2

 

[eso76]

Its like this with all realtime car graphics.

you could fix it with some cars. Side mirrors are always the same angle in regards to the door, so you could just double the mirrors at the correct angle. That is...for cars which doors are mostly flat. When they're curved (and they generally are) your only hope is raytracing, and frankly i don't think it will be worth the trouble for another 20 years.

Ambient light never covers direct sunlight I'm told because direct sunlight is much brighter and masks ambient light.

This is true, in theory, but it really depends on how the hdr image used for lighting is captured and how illumination is calculated. A proper HDRI should include the sun, and if it's accurate enough the sun would be several stops brighter than the rest and basically act as a spotlight.

BUT as a general rule (and fm4 is no exception) you'll want to use a spotlight kind of light source together with IBL.

As for reflections being more apparent in the shadow.

Yes, that's what should happen with hdr reflections.
Basically, only stuff brighter than a moderately reflective surface (like a car's) would be reflected on said surface, so a car in the sun will only reflect the sun itself, or the clouds directly lit by the sun.

Fm4 does that, anyway. Look at the 'alps' making of, for example. The part where the 458 is in the shadow, between those tall rock walls, just before the tunnel; the sky reflects on the car as it would on a mirror, not so much, when it is in direct sunlight.
You can see this in the latest hood cam Road America video too; you don't see reflections on the hood until the car is in the shadows cast by trees or bridges.

There's no problem with direct sunlight as far as i can tell. Of course HDR can be more or less accurate, but it's good enough here, everything considered.

The small issue i have with illumination here is that ambient light is still too scarce. In a bright sunny day the car should receive tons of light from everywhere, plus light from below, bouncing off the tarmac. I am not seeing enough of that in fm4 footage, where the side of the car not directly lit by the sun is still too dark.
Not pitch black as it was in fm3, maybe, but still.

T10 is doing a good job and are heading in the right direction. Dont take this as a big gripe its just that IBL isn't the be all end all of getting your lighting right in a racing game.

Of course not. IBL alone is not sufficient, but it is necessary in photorealism.
Well, actually you can fake it with wisely placed and colored light sources, which i think it's what fm4 does anyway, not true ibl.


EDIT: Ok, so, are we going to get the new behind the scenes video today ? I believe alps and hockenheim were both released on tuesdays ?

 

[Jube3]

Forza Garage Round 2: It may have a pickup bed, but the all-wheel drive, turbocharged 1991 GMC Truck Syclone is too fast to haul anything except tail. Also welcome back some other quick trucks, the 2006 Dodge Ram SRT-10 and 2008 Saleen S331 Supercab.

Forza Garage Round 2 is up

 

[Xanadu]

ahh the pieces of the puzzle are falling nicely into place

 

[enzo_gt]

Forza Garage Round 2: It may have a pickup bed, but the all-wheel drive, turbocharged 1991 GMC Truck Syclone is too fast to haul anything except tail. Also welcome back some other quick trucks, the 2006 Dodge Ram SRT-10 and 2008 Saleen S331 Supercab.

ahh the pieces of the puzzle are falling nicely into place

Forza 4 is actually PGR4 remake in disguise confirmed.

 

[shinnn]

Forza Garage Round 2 is up

yay.. 2 reveals in a day

 

[eso76]

meh. I was hoping the Ferrari FF would be there and i'm glad it is in the game.
But what am i supposed to do with this truck ?
(hurry up and reveal the honda hsv)

 

[Xanadu]

meh. I was hoping the Ferrari FF would be there and i'm glad it is.
But what am i supposed to do with this truck ?
(hurry up and reveal the honda hsv)

thats no ordinary truck!

 

[Ty4on]

I'd love to see the Syclone being useful, like driving slightly unusual cars and it certainly doesn't handle like a boat.

For those who don't know: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK7FmMrAN-U

 

[Mascot]

This rumour about open wheelers - any truth in it?

PS - Enzo: it was Iceburns :lol..!

 

[Iknos]

Fm4 does that, anyway. Look at the 'alps' making of, for example. The part where the 458 is in the shadow, between those tall rock walls, just before the tunnel; the sky reflects on the car as it would on a mirror, not so much, when it is in direct sunlight.
You can see this in the latest hood cam Road America video too; you don't see reflections on the hood until the car is in the shadows cast by trees or bridges.

Good points in general and good counterexample to my complaint. That is very true.

But look at the Hockenheim footage and the car is just too contrasted and dark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMQzXvKVd3c

pause at 5:12 to see what I'm talking about.

The small issue i have with illumination here is that ambient light is still too scarce. In a bright sunny day the car should receive tons of light from everywhere, plus light from below, bouncing off the tarmac. I am not seeing enough of that in fm4 footage, where the side of the car not directly lit by the sun is still too dark.
Not pitch black as it was in fm3, maybe, but still.

This could be it too. Looking at the Hockenheim footage it looks like a bright track and there should be some light reflecting off the road. 5:12 of the footage it looks too contrasted.

Hey I'm not really complaining just pointing out how close things are to looking spot on.

 

[Slayer-33]

oops wrong thread.

 

[Shortt Sirket]

Depends on what cars are ridiculous for you? For some cars like the Ferrari F40 or SSC Ultimate Aero are ridiculous while for others a Ford Ka or Dodge Omni. So the answer would be yes and no.

I know I am a bit late...but is that official confirmation of the Dodge Omni GLH-S?? I know it was expected since it was in the Forzalopnik voting, but this seems like the first actual confirmation.

 

[Seanspeed]

Will they include the NASCAR layout, too, for the stock cars?

GT does, so probably.

I personally hate the Cup layout. Takes out the best part of the track. But you'd expect it to be there.

 

[okenny]

Dude! Where can I get the latest issue of Tranny Low-Riders?

Wrong thread brah...

EDIT: nm... stealth edit.

Spoiler

;p

 

[Slayer-33]

Wrong thread brah...

EDIT: nm... stealth edit.

Spoiler

;p

That's a lie lol.

 

[eso76]

This could be it too. Looking at the Hockenheim footage it looks like a bright track and there should be some light reflecting off the road. 5:12 of the footage it looks too contrasted.

yes, this is exactly what i'm saying
fm uses too much black, and you won't find pure black in real life in a bright sunny day.
Well, unless you're seeing things shot with a camera with a limited dynamic range.
OtherGame5 went for a slightly more 'flat' look (with more diffuse light in fact) and the result is a little more natural looking, plus it would naturally result in less visible aliasing.

Edit: mind you, this is absolutely minor. The lighting on the car does match the environment (billboards facing the same direction as the left side of the car are just as dark). It's just that, since the tarmac is so bright it should illuminate the car and its reflection should be very bright and clearly visible on that side of the car.
Of course though, we can't expect the engine to accurately take 'indirect' luminosity into account. Maybe applying reflections through photoshop-like 'screen' or 'brighter' blending algorithm would do the trick, but that too would be too heavy.

AAAaaaanyway. I was expecting to wake up to a new 'making of' video : (
tomorrow it is, then, i guess.
Also, car section on fm.net is lagging behind ! Jube, do something !

 

[Mascot]

When creating a new fantasy track, I wonder what proportion of time and effort goes into developing the actual route, turns, changes in elevation, deciding on trackside detail etc, and how much goes into the actual 3D modelling and texture work?

If most of the work is in the former then it should be a relatively easy job to update old tracks from FM, shouldn't it? Most of the design work has already been done.

On a related subject, how much work goes into modelling novelty vehicles like the Hummer that will get very little actual use?

Surely Turn 10 realise that it's lack of track variety that is one of Forza's biggest criticisms? I would have thought updating old and much-loved (and much requested) circuits would have been a no-brainer for them?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

BADNED has updated the FC track list to include-- you guessed it-- Infineon Raceway (the full circuit and TBA layouts, probably including the dragstrip).

That makes it as official as official can be sans video or screenshots from Turn 10. Infineon is an excellent circuit with some nice elevation changes that's the closest thing I have to a local track, so I'm thrilled to see it in the game.

That has been in the list for a while now (Well a week or two since I remember seeing it!)..

Whoops. Shows how much attention I pay.

 

[Snubbers]

BADNED has updated the FC track list to include-- you guessed it-- Infineon Raceway (the full circuit and TBA layouts, probably including the dragstrip).

That makes it as official as official can be sans video or screenshots from Turn 10. Infineon is an excellent circuit with some nice elevation changes that's the closest thing I have to a local track, so I'm thrilled to see it in the game.

That has been in the list for a while now (Well a week or two since I remember seeing it!)..

And any additional circuit is welcome.!!!

I have to say, had they included SPA instead of Hockenheim, would more of us be OK to accept just 5 new environments?

I'm not overly upset as is, but if there was 1 killer addition like SPA, I'd be a little happier as I know that would get a lot of use..

 

[Mascot]

I have to say, had they included SPA instead of Hockenheim, would more of us be OK to accept just 5 new environments?

I'm not overly upset as is, but if there was 1 killer addition like SPA, I'd be a little happier as I know that would get a lot of use..

I have a big concern that Spa (and maybe Bathurst) will appear as DLC (which would generate a LOT of income), but will NOT be integrated into the career mode. If this transpires it will be a massive Fuck You to the Forza faithful, profits über alles. I'd rather pay an extra £10 for the game up front than be taxed later and getting a compromised product to boot.

And if Spa and Bathurst never appear at all, then Dan needs a hearing aid and some glasses.

 

[saladine1]

I have a big concern that Spa (and maybe Bathurst) will appear as DLC (which would generate a LOT of income), but will NOT be integrated into the career mode. If this transpires it will be a massive Fuck You to the Forza faithful, profits über alles. I'd rather pay an extra £10 for the game up front than be taxed later and getting a compromised product to boot.

And if Spa and Bathurst never appear at all, then Dan needs a hearing aid and some glasses.

Why would you want those tracks when we have The Bernese Alps?

 

[supersaw]

I don't understand why Brands Hatch is not in.

 

[eso76]

didn't know infineon was official, i kept thinking those frames from the trailer could have been from any part of sidewinder.
If those 5 tracks we've know of for a while really are everything there is, T10 better have plans for cheap DLC
EDIT: Which i am sure will be integrated in career mode somehow, at the very least with additional events. Plus i'm sure fm4 will come with a decent custom race mode.

In comparison fm3 had 10 new locations, including 3 huge tracks. That could also mean T10 has been working a lot on updating old tracks; maybe they opted for accuracy rather than quantity this time and fixed Nordschleife, for example.

Still, fm.net track page shows 32 boxes, so unless they're planning to leave some of them empty or reserved for dlc, assuming every track from fm3 is back and considering all possible locations (montserrat as 3 different locations, amalfi / positano, nordschleife / GP as 4 in total) that would still leave 2 unknown environments.

Where's the new/old track reveal T10 !! (btw, my money is on Nordschleife update)

 

[Xanadu]

lets hope the behemoth is in this time, and yea the nurburgring could be a little more accurate

 

[Xanadu]

was watching PGR4 vids and damn, i forgot how good it looks. in the rain it looks better than both forza 4 and GT5 imo (in cockpit at least)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RIsPjoIPxk&hd=1

 

[Mascot]

Why would you want those tracks when we have The Bernese Alps?

Lol, it looks like a good track but it ain't no SpaHurst.

I'm amazed T10 passed up the opportunity to send a dozen people to Rio for two weeks on Microsoft's dollar to photograph kerb textures. They missed a trick there.

 

[LeBoef]

i dont think saladines reply was serious

is pgr4 worth playing with a wheel?

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

PGR 4, for me at least, never felt right with a wheel.

The city tracks never did, Nordschleife in the snow or storm was terrifying in a good way, that at least deserves a go I reckon.

 

[antiquegamer]

i dont think saladines reply was serious

is pgr4 worth playing with a wheel?

No. It play great with pad, probably best racing game optimized for stick. Though I find it a lot of fun to play with wheel using bike and wonder why no one make handle bars controller.

 

[Fortinbras]

Gamescom is over but German gaming journalists seem to love Forza 4. The game is getting excellent media coverage.

Hands on articles / preview:

http://www.gamesaktuell.de/Forza-Mo...s-super-Grafik-aber-nuechterne-Menues-840125/
http://www.videogameszone.de/Forza-...erteste-Konkurrent-von-Gran-Turismo-5-840085/
http://www.4players.de/4players.php/spielinfonews/360/23123/2071252/Forza_Motorsport_4.html
http://www.gamepro.de/preview/spiel..._motorsport_4/1971227/forza_motorsport_4.html
http://xbox360.gaming-universe.de/vorschau/forza-motorsport-4--handson/65-1.html
http://www.gameswelt.de/articles/previews/145990-Forza_Motorsport_4/
http://www.gamona.de/games/forza-motorsport-4,vorschau-xbox-360:article,1975538.html
http://spiele.t-online.de/-forza-motorsport-4-auf-dem-weg-zur-pole-position/id_49096520/index?news
http://www.evo-x.de/news-Gamescom-2011-Forza-Motorsport-4-Preview-15148.html

 

[saladine1]

For some reason, I can never play an arcade game with a wheel. It's like it's not worth the effort or something. Just sit back with pad in hand,relax and have some fun is the way I play these type of games...

Edit: Anything new in those German previews?

When do we get detailed hands on impressions from these journos?

 

[Mascot]

i dont think saladines reply was serious

...and at no point did I think it was.

 

[eso76]

Gamescom is over but German gaming journalists seem to love Forza 4. The game is getting excellent media coverage.

Hands on articles / preview:

same with italian press.
One of the main videogames websites literally claims fm4 'kicks gt5's ass graphically, then stomps on its nuts and takes a remarkable dump on it from unimagineble heights'.
Yes, this is italian press for ya.

(i don't entirely agree either, from what i've seen)

 

[amar212]

i dont think saladines reply was serious

is pgr4 worth playing with a wheel?

Definately yes. It was not "grip" as PGR3 - which was much better wheel-wise - but it was very, very good. Some platinums were impossible I have to admit, but Golds were managable.

I used MSFFW.

 

[saladine1]

same with italian press.
One of the main videogames websites literally claims fm4 'kicks gt5's ass graphically, then stomps on its nuts and takes a remarkable dump on it from unimagineble heights'.
Yes, this is italian press for ya.

(i don't entirely agree either, from what i've seen)

Yeah, but what have you really seen?(serious question)

From all these previews from the past month, I gather that FM4 actually looks better than any other racer out there.

 

[fabricated backlash]

For some reason, I can never play an arcade game with a wheel. It's like it's not worth the effort or something. Just sit back with pad in hand,relax and have some fun is the way I play these type of games...

Edit: Anything new in those German previews?

When do we get detailed hands on impressions from these journos?

I'm not a journalist, but I did test the game both on the controller as well as the hydraulic simulator with the multi screen setup.

The thing I noticed with the controller is that the rumble feedback is much more nuanced than with FM3. Bumps in the road are much more noticeable. Apart from the driving, which is great even with the controller, the graphics itself are the biggest step up from FM3. The environments are vastly improved, mainly thanks to the new lightning system. The colours are very life like and aside from the flat grass textures the track detail is amazing. I raced both Hockenheim and the Bernese Alps tracks and both looked stunning.

The only thing that I missed was a more pronounced body roll.

The hydraulic simulator was fun, but the steering wheel betrayed the whole experience. You could allways feel that it was a motor that was simulating the force feedback. I turned off most assists aside from ABS and after waiting in line for 2 hours my legs were numb, so the first lap I made several mistakes and boy I was punished severly. Right at the first corner an opponent hit me in the rear, I tried to correct the drift but was hit by another car. After getting back on track I started my chase. The shifting gave a realistic feedback with the power of the car kicking back in after each shift. Going round the corners in the Subaru Imprezza was a blast. Allthough my laptimes were pretty bad, the experience itself was very convincing. The new cockpit view with the shifted camera perspective isn't as sterile and detached as it was in FM3.

Interestingly enough, the demo stations with the controller showed lots of jaggies, while the multiscreen setup with 3 48 inch TV sets did have none. Aside from some low res textures in the cockpit view, the materials look convincing and react very well to the different light situations.

Yeah, but what have you really seen?(serious question)

From all these previews from the past month, I gather that FM4 actually looks better than any other racer out there.

To me it does. It might have some problems here and there, but coming from the GT5 stand to the Forza 4 demo, it really looked better.

 

[saladine1]

Impressions

Thanks for the impressions.

So, you say that the shifting gave a 'kick back' after each shift. Is this true for all the cars you drove?
That's some great detail there Turn 10.

Another question. Did you at anytime experience any snap oversteer or any unsettling when braking?

 

[eso76]

Yeah, but what have you really seen?(serious question)

From all these previews from the past month, I gather that FM4 actually looks better than any other racer out there.

every second of footage, official and non official, direct feed or otherwise, available on the web
It looks good. Very.
Autovista and homespace do look better than..pretty much anything i've seen on consoles.
Ingame...well, cockpits aside i've always thought fm3 already generally looks better than GT5 while you actually play it.

GT5 replays still look better/more realistic to me, although not by a huge margin now.

In any case i wouldn't go as far as saying it destroys and humiliates gt5.
Dawn on Nurburgring left me speechless.


edit: i've read three or four diff. hands on claiming there's lots of snap oversteer to be experienced if you're not careful. That was almost completely absent from fm3.
Haven't seen proof of that in any video, but i guess almost everyone had steering assist on.

 

[Diablohead]

I heard that some screens for forza 4 are non-calibrated or have sharpness at 50% so that's most likely why some setups looked shitty.

You'd think someone there knew about tv's and wanted to show off the game in it's full glory, guess not.