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[Walpurgis]

France state of emergency protest draws thousands

Thousands gathered in Paris to condemn France's continued implementation of state of emergency laws, which they described as a government "coup". Saturday's protest in the French capital drew demonstrators as varied as anarchists and undocumented migrant workers, among others - all of whom shared concerns that the emergency measures unnecessarily empower security forces.

President Francois Hollande initially declared the state of emergency on November 13, following the killing of 130 people by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL - also known as ISIS) group in attacks in Paris. Backed by the new powers, authorities have carried out about 3,400 raids on mosques, homes, and businesses with more than 300 people placed under house arrest. The French government extended the state of emergency in February, saying the threat of "terrorist violence remained very high".

Al Jazeera spoke to a number of those attending the rally on Saturday who said the government was unfairly targeting Muslims and using the pretext of preventing new attacks to crackdown on dissent generally. Leading a line of activists at the front of the protest, the Left Party's Eric Coquerel condemned the state of emergency for having "no effect on terrorism" and posing a threat to civil liberties.

"The state of emergency cannot become permanent because it effectively means citizens giving up their rights," Coquerel told Al Jazeera, adding that government plans to strip nationality from dual-national terrorism suspects created a tiered citizenship system.

Government policies following the attacks have drawn strong condemnation from Muslim groups, who accuse it of treating the entire community as responsible for the actions of a few.

Activist Yasser Louati from the Collective Against Islamophobia told Al Jazeera the government was pushing forward with "counterproductive" strategies despite no proof that they worked.

"There have been only four enquiries [since November] directly linking people with terrorism, meaning this is a permanent state of emergency and a permanent coup," he said.

[...] Present at the rally were pro-Palestinian campaigners, many worried about the government's crackdown on anti-Israel activities, such as the BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) movement, which seeks grassroots divestment from Israel over its activities in the occupied Palestinian territories.

Since October last year, more than a dozen BDS activists have faced trial or have been convicted for promoting "discrimination, hatred, or violence" on the basis of ethnicity. BDS campaigner Mohamed Paz told Al Jazeera the situation had intensified since the state of emergency came into force.

"There has been a government clamp down on BDS with the intention of criminalising our movement... [Prime Minister] Manuel Valls is equating anti-Zionist criticism to anti-Semitism," Paz said.

"He puts [BDS] within the context of the fight against radicalisation and terrorism, while we have nothing to do with either."

Joining in the chants of "liberty" and "the state of emergency is a coup" were a group of undocumented migrant workers, who said they had been targeted by police under the expanded "stop and search" powers brought in under the emergency laws.

One man named Koet Lassana from West Africa told Al Jazeera he was frequently stopped under the new measures, and faced detention and deportation because he did not have the correct papers to stay in the country.

"We are sick of the situation... The police are everywhere, they harass us and stop and search us all the time asking for papers," Lassana said.

The French government also faces opposition to the extension of the state of emergency from within the judicial system. Among those marching with the activists and members of the public were magistrates associated with the second largest judicial trade union in the country, the "Union of Magistrates".

Al Jazeera spoke to the union's General Secretary Laurence Blisson who said the state of emergency was a threat to democracy and the rule of law.

"The [measures] go against the separation of powers and grant the minister of interior the power to put people under house arrest, to raid houses outside the framework of criminal investigation," Blisson said.

"There are means within the current legislation to deal with the issue of terrorism. We should not have fallen into the state of emergency."

In February, France's state of emergency was extended to May 26. A state of emergency allows authorities to keep carry out warrantless police raids and put people under house arrest without prior authorisation of a judge. The state of emergency can be renewed indefinitely, requiring parliamentary approval every four months.

With 3,400 raids and 300 people under house arrest, a yield of only four terrorism investigations shows that this is not an effective strategy.

There was another article from last month, based on research by the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, detailing the abuses by authorities.

In one house raid, HRW said, police broke four of a disabled man's teeth before they realised he was not the person they were looking for.

In another case, a single mother's children were transferred to foster care following a raid.

Amnesty cited a case in the country's southeastern region of Rhone-Alpes in which a woman who was subjected to a search subsequently lost her job.

"I was dismissed just because of my supposed connections. They don't have anything to complain about in my work and I have been working with them for 12 years. I've completely lost my bearings," said the woman, who was named only as D.

In another case recorded by Amnesty, police forced open the door of an elderly man with heart problems, causing him to faint. He was later taken to hospital in an ambulance, while his daughters - one of whom is disabled - were handcuffed and screamed at by officers.

"He was so terrified, he cried a lot when we visited him at the hospital the first days," said Nadia, one of the 80-year-old man's daughters.

Many of those interviewed said they were now scared of the police and have been shunned by their neighbours. Some said they were seeking to leave the country out of fear.

This is not how to fight terrorism, it's how to breed it. Shame on you, France.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

This is not how to fight terrorism, it's how to breed it. Shame on you, France.

I don't think people on NeoGaf truly understand just how para military like the French state is when it wants to be.

Their police force for instance is very,very aggressive.

 

[skybald]

I have always had qualms with the domestic reaction of the United States to terrorism, but France's reaction is worse on almost every level.

 

[Ashes]

In one house raid, HRW said, police broke four of a disabled man's teeth before they realised he was not the person they were looking for.

How utterly repugnant.
Muslims are treated pretty much as second class citizens.

 

[Morat]

Hollande's strongman act is neither convincing or useful.

 

[TheRagnCajun]

Wow I didn't realize France was still in a state of emergency.

 

[Mohonky]

Not surprised.

Expected the blow back against Muslims to be fierce in places like France. If they continue to get hit by terrorist attacks that have any affiliation with any Muslim links, if I were to be Muslim myself, think I would be getting out of there.

 

[Valinor]

while i can see that this reaction can be extreme. i dont see it as crossing a line. the only evidence that it has been counter productive is the opinion from the activist.

Personally i see the elimination of Salafist/extremist ideology as more important.

Whats wrong with raids to rule/and quash the minority that caused actual deaths?

 

[Valinor]

Hollande's strongman act is neither convincing or useful.

how do you know its not useful. are you privy to state secret information or evidence collected by these raids ?

 

[Ogodei]

Hollande's strongman act is neither convincing or useful.

Aye. If he's trying to pre-empt Le Pen, he's going about it all wrong.

 

[Onlinehero]

Personally i see the elimination of Salafist/extremist ideology as more important.

Whats wrong with raids to rule/and quash the minority that caused actual deaths?

If you breed them and prove their methods of terror efficient from a cost/benefit perspective, that probably won't give you a net win in the end.

 

[MegaMelon]

while i can see that this reaction can be extreme. i dont see it as crossing a line. the only evidence that it has been counter productive is the opinion from the activist.

Personally i see the elimination of Salafist/extremist ideology as more important.

Whats wrong with raids to rule/and quash the minority that caused actual deaths?

Are you deliberately ignoring the disabled person losing teeth from a police visit when he was innocent? The person losing custody of their children? The elderly man having to be taken to hospital after fainting from shock whilst young children were getting screamed at?

But no I'm totally sure this isn't gonna breed more extremism. Nope those people will just happily wave their experiences away as unfortunate side effects rather than developing resentment and hatred.

 

[Valinor]

If you breed them and prove their methods of terror efficient from a cost/benefit perspective, that probably won't give you a net win in the end.

there is no excuse for people to resort to salafist /islamist extremist ideology. isis , boko haram etc. if people are that malleable to that sort of change due to raids and checkups for legitimate grievences (the terrorist massacre). then they dont deserve the privelege to stay in whatever western country. good riddance.

 

[The Wall]

Wow I didn't realize France was still in a state of emergency.

They actually, illegally, took my French education background off of my education transcripts and changed it to English. Don't know what the hell they're doing right now, but I'm not exactly complaining. Not like I'll lose the language skills.

 

[Valinor]

Are you deliberately ignoring the disabled person losing teeth from a police visit when he was innocent? The person losing custody of their children? The elderly man having to be taken to hospital after fainting from shock whilst young children were getting screamed at?

But no I'm totally sure this isn't gonna breed more extremism. Nope those people will just happily wave their experiences away as unfortunate side effects rather than developing resentment and hatred.

yeah guess I still dont think that excuses any form of terrorism. especially the salafist , religious extreme kind.

also i want to see the other side of those stories as well

 

[bonesmccoy]

One man named Koet Lassana from West Africa told Al Jazeera he was frequently stopped under the new measures, and faced detention and deportation because he did not have the correct papers to stay in the country.

This one maybe should have been cut from the final article.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

ITT: People come very close to saying that terrorists are right because France is "asking for it".

 

[silvermember]

That is how the terrorist win. Breed more fear, fear turns into hate and eventually more people get recruited. The only way to properly fight terrorist is to get people to want to be part of your society not hate it. You do so by providing them with education and opportunity. A person emotionally invested in your country will try and protect it.

With that said, the French have done a great job breeding.

ITT: People come very close to say that terrorists are right because France is "asking for it".

Believe it or not the world is not as simple as you make it out to be. There is something called shared responsibility. Nobody deserves to get attacked but to pretend that like the french government doesn't have a hand in breeding terrorist is extremely naive and idiotic. Most terrorist tend to be people who are poor and do not feel connected to the society for a wide range of reasons.

As someone from Minnesota where some somalians have left to go join ISIS, a common theme is that most of them tend to be kids who feel out of place in society and Minnesota is pretty tolerant versus France that does a good job at stomping Muslims through laws.

My point there a lot of blame to go around and the FRENCH GOVERNMENT NOT French people have a hand in it. Providing opportunity does help reduce such behavior. A good example are Trump supporters those nutjobs are usually poor and under-educated.

 

[YoungFa]

After seeing the new butler flick, i have to agree with the goverments decision.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

while i can see that this reaction can be extreme. i dont see it as crossing a line. the only evidence that it has been counter productive is the opinion from the activist.

Personally i see the elimination of Salafist/extremist ideology as more important.

Whats wrong with raids to rule/and quash the minority that caused actual deaths?

What's wrong with raids to rule and/or quash a minority you say?

Gee I wonder who did the same in the past

Edit: the way the French are handling this is in very poor form

 

[MegaMelon]

yeah guess I still dont think that excuses any form of terrorism. especially the salafist , religious extreme kind.

also i want to see the other side of those stories as well

I'm not saying it's justified, you're completely right about that. But the fact of the matter is that this stuff will happen. Especially for youngsters who are particularly prone to radicalisation. Things like this only give more fuel to radicalise people.

For reference, I'm not completely against raids and investigations. They can be extremely beneficial and save lives but you have to take caution to ensure you carry them out in a proper manner which this does not seem to be.

 

[Valinor]

while i can see that this reaction can be extreme. i dont see it as crossing a line. the only evidence that it has been counter productive is the opinion from the activist.

Personally i see the elimination of Salafist/extremist ideology as more important.


What's wrong with raids to rule and/or quash a minority you say?

Gee I wonder who did the same in the past

by minority i was refering to the terrorist with thin the rest of moderate islam. i should have been clearer.

i don't doubt that facist and other terrible figures in history used this method along with people who are revered with positive images in history . but if its effective at reducing or giving the impression that any form is no longer tolerable in france in any form , book person or place why is it a bad thing? if it goads people malleable to terrorism/extreme ideology. And those people act on the choice and face consequences. like being deported leaving the country joining isis isn' that good. i see removing extremist ideology and creating an intolerable environment for it as more important than saving people that are good now but can have a possiblity of resorting to terrorism or even remotely malleable to it . (not sure i found the right wording here )

 

[Weckum]

After seeing the new butler flick, i have to agree with the goverments decision.

But that was Egypt and London

 

[Ovid]

They actually, illegally, took my French education background off of my education transcripts and changed it to English. Don't know what the hell they're doing right now, but I'm not exactly complaining. Not like I'll lose the language skills.

Wait, what are you talking about?

 

[Arnie7]

I said this would happen. State of emergency is just like Patriot Act for the French.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

by minority i was refering to the terrorist with thin the rest of moderate islam. it should have been clearer

Very well.

Although, in this context these raids are only doing more to push those further to radicalization

 

[Mrmartel]

Its a vicious cycle. A attack happens and the screws get tighter. Another attack is guaranteed in France within this year, and then the terrorism policies get even tighter. More muslims get attracted to extremism and so forth. The socialists are strongarming muslims in the hopes that it wards off the National Front from winning in 2017. In fact all it will do is make NF stronger while eroding their base voting, of which muslims contribute greatly towards.

There is no good outcomes, it will be a tit for tat situation until widespread violence occurs. There is already a massive Islamic population in France and they ain't going anywhere. Policies and pathways should of been make decades ago. It's too late now. I could predict a few end points and none of them are good for France's motto of Liberté, égalité and fraternité

 

[Valinor]

Very well.

Although, in this context these raids are only doing more to push those further to radicalization

yes i agree.my point is if you are malleable to adopt that sort of extremist ideology or even remotely extremist ideology then good riddance. certianly raids and paper checks in the light of recent events should be expected. didn't the paper just quote a person who is there illegally who didn't have papers. that means its actually working.

the extent of information from these raids and as to how effective they are in rooting out illegal immigrants is also unkown in this article. it is quite biased without any objective information or reference to the other side.

 

[spekkeh]

I naturally lament any unrightful action, but this wound has been festering for far too long and there's nothing wrong about France finally stepping up. A plethora of attacks have been circumvented. Attacks that were not borne out of this state, but were planned previously.

 

[Lead]

I said this would happen. State of emergency is just like Patriot Act for the French.

a lot worse, this is straight up tyranny.

it's absolutely ludicrous this went through parlament in the first place.

doing this to your own population basically means admitting defeat and letting the terrorists win...

doing thousands of raids without a warrant and only having a handful of suspects to show for it is an outrage and a crime against humanity.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

yes i agree.my point is if you are malleable to adopt that sort of extremist ideology or even remotely extremist ideology then good riddance. certianly raids and paper checks in the light of recent events should be expected. didn't the paper just quote a person who is there illegally who didn't have papers. that means its actually working.

the extent of information from these raids and as to how effective they are in rooting out illegal immigrants is also unkown in this article. it is quite biased without any objective information or reference to the other side.

I too would like to see how effective this is with numbers from the authorities

Furthermore, the fact that a state of
emergency needs to be declared in order to catch someone already illegally in the country is a major sign that the current migration laws need updating.

 

[Walpurgis]

while i can see that this reaction can be extreme. i dont see it as crossing a line. the only evidence that it has been counter productive is the opinion from the activist.

Personally i see the elimination of Salafist/extremist ideology as more important.

Whats wrong with raids to rule/and quash the minority that caused actual deaths?

This isn't eliminating any ideology and it is definitely crossing a line. 3,400 raids and 300 people under house arrest with only 4 terrorism investigations to show for it is not an effective strategy. If anything, it is counter productive because it is further alienating an already alienated minority. It also appears to be a waste of resources.

how do you know its not useful. are you privy to state secret information or evidence collected by these raids ?

3,400 raids + 300 people under house arrest = 4 terrorism investigations

I don't consider that to be a good use of resources.

there is no excuse for people to resort to salafist /islamist extremist ideology. isis , boko haram etc. if people are that malleable to that sort of change due to raids and checkups for legitimate grievences (the terrorist massacre). then they dont deserve the privelege to stay in whatever western country. good riddance.

There's an excuse and a reason for everything. You don't have to like massacres and terrorism to understand that there are reasons behind them. That reason is typically to do with alienation and hate towards society. There will always be people sitting on the edge and this might be what pushes them over it. Instead of being mad at them and saying, well, if they're on the edge than they deserve what they get, think about the people that they might kill. And think about the people that aren't on the edge but are having their lives ruined by these humiliating raids.

yeah guess I still dont think that excuses any form of terrorism. especially the salafist , religious extreme kind.

also i want to see the other side of those stories as well

What side of the story? The numbers have demonstrated that it is not effective. Are you disputing them or are you saying that the victims are creating stories?

After seeing the new butler flick, i have to agree with the goverments decision.

I hope that this is sarcasm.

 

[Valinor]

I too would like to see how effective this is with numbers from the authorities

Furthermore, the fact that a state of
emergency needs to be declared in order to catch someone already illegally in the country is a major sign that the current migration laws need updating.

i think its more that the attacks weren't perpetrated by a one or three members alone. i would bet that it probably receives cell like support from mosques and communities who espouse similar anti western salafist / extremist ideology . maybe other people whose role is to procure resources and information. the raids are probably to achieve intel. find others of similar thoughts to ensure that at the very least they are not out in the open to spread their message and ideologies through twitter, books etc.

didn't we just recover numerous documents on names of isis fighters. cant seem to find where that was. plus there is also the issue that you and i don't actually know what , how much or to what extent information was recovered with regards to the targets being as we are the public.

 

[M52B28]

I don't think people on NeoGaf truly understand just how para military like the French state is when it wants to be.

Their police force for instance is very,very aggressive.

This is what I had to say about this.

The state of emergency claims are completely unfair. It's just an excuse to carry out raids and profile brown colored people without much repercussion, but now it's being understood that it's unacceptable.

 

[Valinor]

.

are you privy to state secretes recovered during these raids. if you are then maybe you can assess whether the information was worth. all you have is newspaper information not actual primary source.

secondly if you are arguing that there are subjectively reasons for excuse for terrorism . then sure. i personally don't believe that there is no excuse to resort to extremist ideology that is shared by people actively engaging in sex slavery, forced conversions of 219 girls etc et and responsible for all that nonsense that is happening in the middle east. but hey thats just me .

my point is that if there are people staying in these countries that are willing to resort to adopting these extremist ideologies on account of raids and paper checking in the wake of massacres. then personally i say good riddance. get out of the country.this is clearly not the place no excuse for that kind of malleability. especially after the massacre that just happened.

what numbers are you referring to?. isn't them not arresting people not involved with extremist ideology a good thing. do you realize these raids are also about recovering intel?

the other side of the story. i am referring to whether there was resistance , maybe non accidental injuries present with the case of the children being whisked away by social services. etc.

alienation is not an excuse for adopting any form of extremist islamist ideology. if it does then thats the sort of people that france and i would venture many western nations want to have no part to do with in their countries.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Hollande and Valls are a disgrace to its party and to France in general. I now would've preferred Sarkozy to won in 2012.

 

[nilbog21]

ITT: People come very close to saying that terrorists are right because France is "asking for it".

Seriously, what the fuck am I reading in this thread?? But did you see an old man fainted during the raid?

France is creating terrorists trying to keep its citizens/tourists safe!! Give me a break

 

[KooopaKid]

Thousands? 1300 in Paris apparently.

 

[spekkeh]

This isn't eliminating any ideology and it is definitely crossing a line. 3,400 raids and 300 people under house arrest with only 4 terrorism investigations to show for it is not an effective strategy.

You think those 300 people were put under house arrest for shits and giggles?

I mean it's certainly a possibility. It's also a possibility French intelligence knows damn well who returned from Syria and is a radicalized salafist, but didn't have the means to keep them from spreading their ideology earlier.

 

[Nuu]

Once again, NeoGAF proves that while it is very liberal on almost all things, but once Muslims are mentioned many members turn into arch-conservatives or straight up fascist.

 

[Valinor]

Once again, NeoGAF proves that while it is very liberal on almost all things, but once Muslims are mentioned many members turn into arch-conservatives or straight up fascist.

whose denouncing muslims. we are talking about fighting extremist ideology or potential extremist ideology adopters

 

[Mass_Pincup]

You think those 300 people were put under house arrest for shits and giggles?

I mean it's certainly a possibility. It's also a possibility French intelligence knows damn well who returned from Syria and is a radicalized salafist, but didn't have the means to keep them from spreading their ideology earlier.

It's a fact that french intelligence didn't have enough ressources to keep tabs on them but there's several cases of abuse being reported since the state of emergency happened.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Once again, NeoGAF proves that while it is very liberal on almost all things, but once Muslims are mentioned many members turn into arch-conservatives or straight up fascist.

And once again fascism is reduced to 'thing I don't agree with' rather then an actual political system.

 

[SlimySnake]

I am muslim and I am ok with this. I'd rather some people get their teeth broken than hundreds die because the government sat by and did nothing.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

You think those 300 people were put under house arrest for shits and giggles?

I mean it's certainly a possibility. It's also a possibility French intelligence knows damn well who returned from Syria and is a radicalized salafist, but didn't have the means to keep them from spreading their ideology earlier.

No I'm sure they weren't but learning how they are making many errors in the process gives me reason to believe their methods of identifying threats are very poor

 

[nilbog21]

Once again, NeoGAF proves that while it is very liberal on almost all things, but once Muslims are mentioned many members turn into arch-conservatives or straight up fascist.

What does this thread have to do with Muslims?

 

[MegaMelon]

I am muslim and I am ok with this. I'd rather some people get their teeth broken than hundreds die because the government sat by and did nothing.

You are aware there is a middle ground between doing nothing and breaking disabled people's teeth right?

 

[Valinor]

You are aware there is a middle ground between doing nothing and breaking disabled people's teeth right?

So lets all adopt extremist ideology . the kind of radicalization that allows us to kidnap some females of the opposite sex, force them to convert , or maybe sell them into sexual slavery using forced contraception.

how about kidnapping some school children from school . converting and distributing them out like candy to our subordinates.

that makes perfect sense

middle ground missing everywhere huh?

 

[Walpurgis]

You think those 300 people were put under house arrest for shits and giggles?

I mean it's certainly a possibility. It's also a possibility French intelligence knows damn well who returned from Syria and is a radicalized salafist, but didn't have the means to keep them from spreading their ideology earlier.

Well, they only have 4 terrorism related investigations so that does raise some questions on why they have 300 people under house arrest. The barrier to arrest has been removed so it could be because they are related to a suspect or because their neighbour was a suspect or because officials felt like it. There's no accountability or oversight so we can only make assumptions. 4 terrorism investigations makes me assume that most of those house arrests are unjustified.

Once again, NeoGAF proves that while it is very liberal on almost all things, but once Muslims are mentioned many members turn into arch-conservatives or straight up fascist.

Basically.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

So lets all adopt extremist ideology . the kind of radicalization that allows us to kidnap some females of the opposite sex, force them to convert , or maybe sell them into sexual slavery using forced contraception.

how about kidnapping some school children from school . converting and distributing them out like candy to our subordinates.

that makes perfect sense

middle ground missing everywhere huh?

That's not what megamelon is saying. Stop with the hyperbole.

If you're going to break someone's teeth in make sure it's the right person, this fuck up is amplified by the fact that the wrong person is disabled as well