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[Valinor]

Mind replying to these posts?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=198325051&postcount=83
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=198325833&postcount=94

i thought i did . but this is my general thing i have been repeating over and over again so

in summation

Raids could cause moderates to radicalize.

moderates who radicalize and adopt extremist ideology have no need to be a part of france or any secular western nation

extremist ideology removal and inshopitablity /intolerance to its ideology >>>>>than saving moderates who are malleable to radicalizations.

does this answer the question . we are pretty much going in circles . for the past two pages

 

[Valinor]

The only thing you've explained is that you're perfectly happy with terrorism as long as it's government mandated and makes you feel safer.

change that to removing extremist ideology and not government

and this to .extreme methods

and we have an very basic understanding

 

[The Wall]

their alienation is not more important than routing out extremist ideology . i actually see this as a step towards bringing down extremist in any community and better integration of the moderates into normal society.

Or... OR... stay with me here.. you're just making it worse and giving them more legitimate reasons to organize against all these unnecessary and unforgivable abuses. When the government starts becoming the more extremist and harmful ideology, they done fucked up, aren't admitting to it, and therefore are further unable to rectify it because of that very fact.

Edit: This is about human rights, not government fuck up and cover up systems. I firmly consider myself to be of the middle ground, having seen shit on both sides and... I'm stunned by how much more often the government's way of doing things (and fucking them up) makes everything worse as opposed to other parties.

 

[MegaMelon]

i thought i did . but this is my general thing i have been repeating over and over again so

in summation

Raids could cause moderates to radicalize.

moderates who radicalize and adopt extremist ideology have no need to be a part of france or any secular western nation

extremist ideology removal and inshopitablity /intolerance to its ideology >>>>>than saving moderates who are malleable to radicalizations.

does this answer the question . we are pretty much going in circles . for the past two pages

No mate I mean specifically reply to the points I've made to the specific points in your posts.

The reason we're running in circles is because you are failing to listen to anyone. Stop parroting this 'but they're justified because we're eliminating extremist ideologies' idea since it's been well pointed put that this is;

-a waste of resources
-counter-productive
-infringing on human rights
-hurting innocent people

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

The problem is that Valinor - for reasons of ignorance, bigotry, or both - is incapable of understanding that actions like this do the opposite of rooting out extremism.

Unless he does understand it, but he's OK with increasing the threat of terroristm as long as brown people with funny sounding names are being locked up and having their heads kicked in.

 

[Valinor]

Or... OR... stay with me here.. you're just making it worse and giving them more legitimate reasons to organize against all these unnecessary and unforgivable abuses.

you see it as a legitimate reason . i clearly don't . i wonder how much people see it as a legitimate reason and who doesn't

 

[The Adder]

change that to removing extremist ideology and not government

and this to .extreme methods

and we have an very basic understanding

Muslims break into a house, attack and terrorize a family because they don't have the right religion, hospitalize one of them. Interrogate the rest. You'd be screaming from the high heavens about how terrible this is.

Government does it and it's fine.

Yeah, I know exactly what kind of person you are. Best pray your in-group never "fits the description" one day.

 

[MegaMelon]

Valinor are you a Trump supporter by any chance? I think he respects brown people/muslims as much as you do.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

In the grand scheme of things, the number of deaths from terrorist attacks is absolutely minuscule. Terrorism is just not as big an issue as people make it out to be.

The issue is more social/political than moral.
The Charlie Hebdo shootings "only" ended in 16 deaths, right?
But the problem is that, in a country of free speech like France, artists were murdered for daring to say what they think. Worse, they were murdered for ideological reasons, not in some isolated incident by psychopaths or something. Terrorist attacks are mostly an attack on the targeted group's ideals and standards, the amount of dead people in itself is nothing compared to, say, basic warfare
This is taking a very, very cynical point of view though...

French people are targeted, in France, for not subscribing to one particular branch of radical Islam or really just for being French. And the threat posed by the Islamic State is still a major scourge right now. Don't tell me the state of alert is unjustified...

 

[JC Sera]

This whole thing sounds like a tony abbott wet dream. Under his reign we had raids on the muslim communities and putting thru laws to strip suspected terrorists of their passports and nationalities. My heart goes out to france & the brave protesters.

 

[The Wall]

you see it as a legitimate reason . i clearly don't . i wonder how much people see it as a legitimate reason and who doesn't

I would make a small bet if you had some things done to you that these innocent people have, your tune would change.

The problem is that Valinor - for reasons of ignorance, bigotry, or both - is incapable of understanding that actions like this do the opposite of rooting out extremism.

That sounds about right. He hasn't had his brain correctively broken in some places yet.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

the important thing is to create an inhospitable environment and intolerance for any form of that kind of thought. not to save those people

Sure sounds a lot like Thoughtcrime. I'm not saying I in any way support that ideology of radicalism, but you can't police peoples thoughts, you can only act if unless you have poof they are actual going to act on it, thats the tenants of freedom. The approach has to be civil and in accordance with the law, if not you have government surveillance like with the patriot act in the US. Some people have anti-western ideas, but are not radicalized, however events like this provoke them act against what they see as injustice.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

I can understand the fear and I empathise with it. I can't imagine living in Paris today, I would be afraid to leave my house, tbh. I also get why they are doing this but I think it is wrong.

More importantly than this being wrong, it is also ineffective and actually counterproductive. 4 terrorism investigations is not realistic to me. With millions of people living in France, there should be more than that (at least I would think). They would have been better off with NSA style surveillance, imo. If they're going to infringe on people's human rights, at least make it so that they don't notice.

French Muslims were already alienated before all of this but this has kicked the alienation into overdrive. If the French government doesn't care about their feelings, maybe they will care about the possibility of pushing people to radicalisation. They need a more lowkey method. Right now, they are making people hate France.

I completely agree with the fact it's not very efficient - the results are relatively minor compared to the amount of efforts given so far, and everyone who knows what's going on will agree. But what else can be done? France still has a big red target on its forehead and we don't even know when it might end.
Muslims are in a seriously unlucky position right now (doesn't help that bias against Arabs and Muslims already had a room in French society) but how else can things be at this moment?

 

[Valinor]

Valinor are you a Trump supporter by any chance? I think he respects brown people/muslims as much as you do.

i have no qualms with moderate muslims. i do see the need for extreme action to route out extremist ideology . and in light of recent events a more firm approach to creating an active inhospitable /intolerable environment for that sort of thought. i am against the thought of any excuse for radicalization.

i actually think this sort of modern drag can lead to better integration in the future. but its important to maintain secularism (charlie hebdo ) than to not act in the fear of creating radicals.

not an american . not a trump supporter.
if i was thought does it change anything with regards to this and why?

 

[The Wall]

i have no qualms with moderate muslims. i do see the need for extreme action to route out extremist ideology .

*ahem*

IT MAKES IT WORSE. IT MAKES THE EXTREMISTS BETTER AT WHAT THEY DO.

Yuuuuppppp.

 

[Valinor]

No mate I mean specifically reply to the points I've made to the specific points in your posts.

The reason we're running in circles is because you are failing to listen to anyone. Stop parroting this 'but they're justified because we're eliminating extremist ideologies' idea since it's been well pointed put that this is;

-a waste of resources
-counter-productive
-infringing on human rights
-hurting innocent people

again we have gone over this. you are just not willing to accept that people don't care all this has happened and are willing to do this to rule out extremist ideology.

 

[The Adder]

I completely agree with the fact it's not very efficient - the results are relatively minor compared to the amount of efforts given so far, and everyone who knows what's going on will agree. But what else can be done? France still has a big red target on its forehead and we don't even know when it might end.
Muslims are in a seriously unlucky position right now (doesn't help that bias against Arabs and Muslims already had a room in French society) but how else can things be at this moment?

Let me alter a Ben Franklin quote to express my feelings on this matter.

Those who would sacrifice the liberty of others for their own security should have neither.

 

[The Wall]

again we have gone over this. you are just not willing to accept that people don't care all this has happened and are willing to do this to rule out extremist ideology.

Actually, some very scary, quiet people do care.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

i thought i did . but this is my general thing i have been repeating over and over again so

in summation

Raids could cause moderates to radicalize.

what
moderates in france already know that the entire population is in danger, not just non-muslims - many muslims died in the terror attacks too
any moderate who becomes radicalized because french police is paranoid about terror attacks that pertain to their faith was never really a moderate to begin with
you don't go from "peace and love" to "kill the infidels" because your country's police is paranoid because of constant terrorist threat and is rougher than usual with people who share your faith
yes - rougher than usual is the term I'm using, because no one so far has gotten accidentally killed or driven out of the country with weak accusations
i'm not saying france is all sun & happiness right now but you're seriously underestimating how serious the situation is if you think that the french government and police doing shady shit is enough to make some people radicalized (especially when them becoming radicalized would turn them from a potential target into definitely a target)

Let me alter a Ben Franklin quote to express my feelings on this matter.

Those who would sacrifice the liberty of others for their own security should have neither.

This blows up the current situation of muslims in france to ridiculous proportions

you do know that the liberty of everyone in france is compromised, right? they've passed a law that allows police officers to syphoon people's data from phones, computers... without their knowledge
what do you think should happen under serious terrorist threat? you're acting as if muslims are being stripped of their rights or beaten up on sight or something, when all that's happening is that police officers are much rougher and more suspicious about them than with other groups, which makes perfect sense considering how every attack so far has been done for a radical islamic cause, by muslims
i do not support it at all but there is nothing wrong about the police being more suspicious of one group than of another if the last two major terrorist attacks were carried on by people of said group

what this report tells us isn't that muslims are being oppressed in france and stripped of their humanity
what this report tells us is that police officers are tired, scared, the situation is deteriorating as many innocent civilians get undeserved pressure put on them because of the police, and the situation can and will only get more difficult to control as the state of alert remains high

 

[Valinor]

I would make a small bet if you had some things done to you that these innocent people have, your tune would change.



That sounds about right. He hasn't had his brain correctively broken in some places yet.

yea i am out. nothing i said is bigotted. people with different onions and tolerance to extremist ideology aren't bigots but you can continue your thread. i have already said my peace , we have literally gone in circles for the past two pages. dont worry though you are definetley convincing people to join the portest and your cause by lumping me with trump rubio etc. . nothing more than bickering at this point with regards to my convo

 

[Brian Griffin]

This is how you let the terrorists win.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

again we have gone over this. you are just not willing to accept that people don't care all this has happened and are willing to do this to rule out extremist ideology.

Who are you talking about? Keep in mind that the state of emergency wasn't voted by the population but first by the President and then by the Parliament. You may argue that they've been elected by the population but that doesn't mean that they're doing what the majority wants.

 

[The Wall]

yea i am out. nothing i said is bigotted. people with different onions and tolerance to extremist ideology aren't bigots but you can continue your thread. i have already said my peace , we have literally gone in circles for the past two pages. dont worry though you are definetley convincing people to join the portest and your cause by lumping me with trump rubio etc. . nothing more than bickering at this point with regards to my convo

What I have said to you is without presumptions on where your "allegiance" lay. Just commenting on or trying to point out where your opinions and understanding on some matters may be 'flawed', or come from a place of imperfect information/scope on a situation. Not once have I "lumped" you into any side. You're thinking of the others.

 

[BocoDragon]

This is how you let the terrorists win.

Another way to let the terrorists win is to actually let the terrorists win by doing nothing.

 

[Toxi]

change that to removing extremist ideology and not government

and this to .extreme methods

and we have an very basic understanding

At what point do you consider the ends to not justify the means? From what I can tell, this crackdown hasn't actually removed much "extremist ideology", and at the same time it has caused suffering and injury for many innocent people.

Another way to let the terrorists win is to actually let the terrorists win by doing nothing.

Frankly, as a US citizen, we probably should have done "nothing" following 9/11. Instead politicians preying on people's fears played wrecking ball with Afghanistan and Iraq and increased government surveillance to unprecedented levels.

 

[The Adder]

you don't go from "peace and love" to "kill the infidels" because your country's police is paranoid because of constant terrorist threat and is rougher than usual with people who share your faith

It's pretty easy to go from "peace and love" to "we haven't done anything wrong, but my friends and family keep getting terrorized, beaten, and ostracized no matter what we do, so maybe those people who said that this is what these people are like were right." when a government and its people have decided that your people don't deserve basic rights.

 

[MegaMelon]

yea i am out. nothing i said is bigotted. people with different onions and tolerance to extremist ideology aren't bigots but you can continue your thread. i have already said my peace , we have literally gone in circles for the past two pages. dont worry though you are definetley convincing people to join the portest and your cause by lumping me with trump rubio etc. . nothing more than bickering at this point with regards to my convo

Damn straight I'm going to make a snide comment after it's become very clear that you just do not care at this point. Whether it's a man/woman or child, healthy or disabled, muslim or not muslim, even if they're innocent violence is justified in your eyes in a pathetically vain attempt at combating extremism. There isn't anything further I can say to you that'll change your mind. It's disgusting that people have these types of beliefs, so blinded by fear they'll resort to knee-jerk reactions and abandon all reasoning and sense of justice.

You're a bigot and part of the problem. I can only hope one day you'll realise just what exactly you're saying.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

It's pretty easy to go from "peace and love" to "we haven't done anything wrong, but my friends and family keep getting terrorized, beaten, and ostracized no matter what we do, so maybe those people who said that this is what these people are like were right." when a government and its people have decided that your people don't deserve basic rights.

you're saying this as if 1) every muslim in france felt threatened by the police and 2) muslims are being stripped of their basic rights at all

radical muslims carry terrorist attacks on france, twice on the same year
french police becomes paranoid as all hell
french muslims get screwed over
it's not pretty but people are acting as if muslims are being rounded up and shot or something

edit: may i ask, are you a muslim?

 

[The Adder]

Another way to let the terrorists win is to actually let the terrorists win by doing nothing.

I'd rather take it on the chin and keep it pushing than allow state sponsored terrorism to be conducted on my fellow Americans. I think MY OWN country went too far, but France? Fuck this shit.

~ Man who had close friends in the Pentagon on 9/11

edit: may i ask, are you a muslim?

Christian born and raised. What's it to you?

 

[MegaMelon]

2) muslims are being stripped of their basic rights at all

Someone losing their job, their children, being verbally and physically assaulted to the point a disabled person has had their teeth broken isn't a violation of human rights at all?

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Someone losing their job, their children, being verbally and physically assaulted to the point a disabled person has had their teeth broken isn't a violation of human rights at all?

How common is this? I'm not saying there aren't muslims in France right now who aren't getting seriously fucked over for simply not being an ethnically white non-muslim french. There's even a guy ITT whose education background was changed ilegally.
But the majority of muslims in France are not being beaten, insulted, harassed, etc.

 

[tfur]

Actually, some very scary, quiet people do care.

What is this supposed to mean? Typical internet bravado? Are you easily scared?

 

[BocoDragon]

Damn straight I'm going to make a snide comment after it's become very clear that you just do not care at this point. Whether it's a man/woman or child, healthy or disabled, muslim or not muslim, even if they're innocent violence is justified in your eyes in a pathetically vain attempt at combating extremism. There isn't anything further I can say to you that'll change your mind. It's disgusting that people have these types of beliefs, so blinded by fear they'll resort to knee-jerk reactions and abandon all reasoning and sense of justice.

You're a bigot and part of the problem. I can only hope one day you'll realise just what exactly you're saying.

Ridiculous.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Christian born and raised. What's it to you?

Recent Christian convert, but ethnically Berber with 99% Muslim family as well as a couple Muslim friends
Just wanted to know - I understand very well that some Muslims in France would feel very concerned by the treatment of Muslims by French authorities

 

[Walpurgis]

A government terrorizing and harming its citizens, both physically and mentally, due to associations they may or may not have based on their religious affiliation is pretty fucking fascist.

That reminds me of the illegal west African guy in the article. He mentioned that he is constantly being stopped and searched. I wonder what keeps giving him away...

i have nothing against moderate muslims integreating into society. but i think its important to actively create an inhospitable environment/intolerant environment to weed it out. if people choose to espouse to these values knowing the level of tolerance the west has extremist ideology . its their choice to make, the minute they have made their choice they decide to put their extremist ideology over living in a western secular country. their alienation is not more important than routing out extremist ideology . i actually see this as a step towards bringing down extremist in any community and better integration of the moderates into normal society.

Let me tell you a story.

A few months ago, I went to the city's central mosque and listened to the Imam's talk. It was election season in Canada so the Imam was telling us about the importance of voting and to pay attention to politics. While the Imam was speaking, a Sudanese man abruptly started shouting something at him from the back with an immigrant accent. The entire mosque fell silent in shock – this has never happened before.

With this tense silence, I could hear him more clearly, "Shirk! Shirk! Shirk!" [Shirk is the worship of anyone other than God - the worst accusation]. "Democracy is shirk! It is against sharia!" that man yelled. Everyone was paralyzed in fear as he repeated himself. His rant was interrupted by a West African woman who started yelling at him from the women's side of the mosque. It was hard to hear her rant but I was able to make out "This is Canada!" and something about her old country. I could definitely hear her crying.

The Imam tried to talk the crazy guy down but he wasn’t shutting up. Several men dragged him out of the mosque and I saw a few women taking the crying West African woman to the washroom to comfort her. We did our prayer and an older Imam took the microphone to dispel the crazy guy’s claims. He mentioned that up until then, he had never seen someone interrupt the Friday talk in his entire life (old man), as it was a huge sin.

After that was done, that event was all everyone could talk about outside the mosque. As I walked back to my car, I heard gatherings of old Somali men on the sidewalk making fun of him and shunning him. I tried to locate the guy through my dad since I thought he was Somali but the only info that I got was that he was known to be mentally ill by his peers.

The point of this story is that this is what happens in a real environment that is inhospitable to extremist ideologies; they are shunned by the community. This environment exists because Muslims are happy in Canada. There is no discontent or resentment because there is no reason for there to be any.

If such a thing took place in France today, I have a feeling that it would go a bit differently.

 

[ugaboga232]

France: failing integrating other ethnicities 101 (america is stuck on 102). Maybe if you don't create a lower class with institutional discrimination, they won't be so pissed.


Also a lot of people that fail to empathize/understand what drives their fellow humans in this thread.

 

[MegaMelon]

How common is this? I'm not saying there aren't muslims in France right now who aren't getting seriously fucked over for simply not being an ethnically white non-muslim french. There's even a guy ITT whose education background was changed ilegally.
But the majority of muslims in France are not being beaten, insulted, harassed, etc.

You said:

you're saying this as if 1) every muslim in france felt threatened by the police and 2) muslims are being stripped of their basic rights at all
?

Which I interpreted as;

you're saying this as if

1) every muslim in france felt threatened by the police and

2) muslims are being stripped of their basic rights at all

Look at 2) on it's own. If you meant all muslims not having their human rights taken away then you worded your post in a strange way.

But regardless, it's happening and it's a problem. If people are losing their human rights no matter how few it's a problem.

Ridiculous.

Elaborate.

 

[The Adder]

How common is this? I'm not saying there aren't muslims in France right now who aren't getting seriously fucked over for simply not being an ethnically white non-muslim french. There's even a guy ITT whose education background was changed ilegally.
But the majority of muslims in France are not being beaten, insulted, harassed, etc.

"An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

 

[Mr Waluigi]

You said:



Which I interpreted as;



Look at 2) on it's own. If you meant all muslims not having their human rights taken away then you worded your post in a strange way.

But regardless, it's happening and it's a problem. If people are losing their human rights no matter how few it's a problem.



Elaborate.

Oh right, I worded that in a really strange way. Today was a long day.

I meant that 1) the amount of Muslims concerned by police brutality in France is still not a majority right now, and 2) among those who are not the subject of police brutality, they are not being seen as "less French" or "more dangerous" than any other French civilian, or being unfairly searched (as far as I know - I don't know a lot so feel free to prove me wrong), etc. I did see many people giving Muslims a very bad eye back in November but I don't see that anymore.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a problem. But rather that it's justified, police isn't targeting Muslims out of hate or something. Fear does play a major role but after two terrorist attacks it's not nonsense, is it?
I really wish tension would be lower but I don't see how we can lower the alert level without becoming more vulnerable either.

 

[Deserted Maniac Island]

The point of this story is that this is what happens in a real environment that is inhospitable to extremist ideologies; they are shunned by the community. This environment exists because Muslims are happy in Canada. There is no discontent or resentment because there is no reason for there to be any.

If such a thing took place in France today, I have a feeling that it would go a bit differently.

I completely agree with this. In Canada you don't have the animosity between Muslims and other religions. Plus it helps that Canada's policies are more egalitarian, and more fair. You can't condemn something from the outside, it has to come from within.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

That reminds me of the illegal west African guy in the article. He mentioned that he is constantly being stopped and searched. I wonder what keeps giving him away...


Let me tell you a story.

A few months ago, I went to the city's central mosque and listened to the Imam's talk. It was election season in Canada so the Imam was telling us about the importance of voting and to pay attention to politics. While the Imam was speaking, a Sudanese man abruptly started shouting something at him from the back with an immigrant accent. The entire mosque fell silent in shock – this has never happened before.

With this tense silence, I could hear him more clearly, "Shirk! Shirk! Shirk!" [Shirk is the worship of anyone other than God - the worst accusation]. "Democracy is shirk! It is against sharia!" that man yelled. Everyone was paralyzed in fear as he repeated himself. His rant was interrupted by a West African woman who started yelling at him from the women's side of the mosque. It was hard to hear her rant but I was able to make out "This is Canada!" and something about her old country. I could definitely hear her crying.

The Imam tried to talk the crazy guy down but he wasn’t shutting up. Several men dragged him out of the mosque and I saw a few women taking the crying West African woman to the washroom to comfort her. We did our prayer and an older Imam took the microphone to dispel the crazy guy’s claims. He mentioned that up until then, he had never seen someone interrupt the Friday talk in his entire life (old man), as it was a huge sin.

After that was done, that event was all everyone could talk about outside the mosque. As I walked back to my car, I heard gatherings of old Somali men on the sidewalk making fun of him and shunning him. I tried to locate the guy through my dad since I thought he was Somali but the only info that I got was that he was known to be mentally ill by his peers.

The point of this story is that this is what happens in a real environment that is inhospitable to extremist ideologies; they are shunned by the community. This environment exists because Muslims are happy in Canada. There is no discontent or resentment because there is no reason for there to be any.

If such a thing took place in France today, I have a feeling that it would go a bit differently.

I don't think so, most muslim in France always have and always will differentiate themselves and shame extremist whether publicly or in their community. I won't say that everyone of them will because I personally know people who cheered at what happened to Charlie Hebdo and who screamed for conspiracy for both terrorists attacks. This is coming from what we can call "french ghetto" youth but they're a vocal minority in the french muslim community as far as I know.

And also Canada lacks the historical tension between the muslim community (which most of comes from former colonies) and France, there's often resentment coming from that which can lead people to say stupid things.

How do you want authorities to prevent a third round of terrorist attacks in France while remaining perfectly calm and in complete control of themselves, after the threat hasn't gotten any lower after months of being on high alert?

They just could've gave the anti terrorist task force more ressources as they've asked for a lot of time, there's been report coming for them that a big attack was going to happen in Paris last year coming from people they interrogated, but with the lack of funds they couldn't prevent it.

 

[Mr Waluigi]

"An injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"

How do you want authorities to prevent a third round of terrorist attacks in France while remaining perfectly calm and in complete control of themselves, after the threat hasn't gotten any lower after months of being on high alert?

 

[MegaMelon]

Oh right, I worded that in a really strange way. Today was a long day.

No worries then dude.

I meant that 1) the amount of Muslims concerned by police brutality in France is still not a majority right now.

No arguments here that appears to be correct although I can only go off of what we've read in these articles.

2) among those who are not the subject of police brutality, they are not being seen as "less French" or "more dangerous" than any other French civilian, or being unfairly searched (as far as I know - I don't know a lot so feel free to prove me wrong), etc. I did see many people giving Muslims a very bad eye back in November but I don't see that anymore.

My point of contention is with how regardless of their religion, age, etc completely innocent people are being abused both physically and mentally. Plus with problems arising in word and even custody of children, that's reason enough to believe there's some form of racial discrimination going on here. The fact that an innocent disabled man got physically abused to the point of breaking his teeth leads me to believe that there is unfair searching going on, especially with what, 4 or 5 potentially terrorist related cases arising from all these raids and operations.

How do you want authorities to prevent a third round of terrorist attacks in France while remaining perfectly calm and in complete control of themselves, after the threat hasn't gotten any lower after months of being on high alert?

No-one is saying not to take action but rather to be more organised and fair in how you operate. See the innocent people being abused, etc. Besides, this isn't going to help avoid the problem if it continues.

 

[The Wall]

What is this supposed to mean? Typical internet bravado? Are you easily scared?

Let's call it cosmic karma and leave it at that.

At what point do you consider the ends to not justify the means? From what I can tell, this crackdown hasn't actually removed much "extremist ideology", and at the same time it has caused suffering and injury for many innocent people.

Yup, and only strengthened the very groups that are actually a real problem/threat.

 

[The Adder]

How do you want authorities to prevent a third round of terrorist attacks in France while remaining perfectly calm and in complete control of themselves, after the threat hasn't gotten any lower after months of being on high alert?

I don't have all the answers. But what I do know is that what they're doing isn't preventing anything. They've caught four people. And I can guarantee you it's been used to create at least four more that'll end up just like them. You're not safer.

What I do know is that tormenting a people not because anything they've done, but because of what they may be doing based on what they look like and who they worship is wrong.

What I do know is that if France had a sudden burst of Christian terrorist attacks, this is not how the country would act.

What I know is what's right, and what's wrong. This is wrong and no less terrorism than the acts it's supposedly meant to prevent.

 

[Walpurgis]

what this report tells us isn't that muslims are being oppressed in france and stripped of their humanity
what this report tells us is that police officers are tired, scared, the situation is deteriorating as many innocent civilians get undeserved pressure put on them because of the police, and the situation can and will only get more difficult to control as the state of alert remains high

It does. There are several cases of people having their human rights violated in the OP. You don't have to down play it.

Another way to let the terrorists win is to actually let the terrorists win by doing nothing.

There is a middle ground. No one has suggested to do nothing.

you're saying this as if 1) every muslim in france felt threatened by the police and 2) muslims are being stripped of their basic rights at all

1) and 2) seem pretty accurate to me.

I meant that 1) the amount of Muslims concerned by police brutality in France is still not a majority right now, and 2) among those who are not the subject of police brutality, they are not being seen as "less French" or "more dangerous" than any other French civilian, or being unfairly searched (as far as I know - I don't know a lot so feel free to prove me wrong), etc. I did see many people giving Muslims a very bad eye back in November but I don't see that anymore.

Yeah, I'm not saying it's not a problem. But rather that it's justified, police isn't targeting Muslims out of hate or something. Fear does play a major role but after two terrorist attacks it's not nonsense, is it?
I really wish tension would be lower but I don't see how we can lower the alert level without becoming more vulnerable either.

1) so we are to wait until more than 50% of Muslims in France experience police brutality before calling them out?
2) Even before all this, French Muslims were viewed as "less French". The recent attacks certainly haven't helped.

And we know that they are being unfairly searched because there is no judge involved as well as the pathetic success rate.

It doesn't matter if the police are scared. They have no right to use a minority as a punching bag to make themselves feel better.

I don't think so, most muslim in France always have and always will differentiate themselves and shame extremist whether publicly or in their community. I won't say that everyone of them will because I personally know people who cheered at what happened to Charlie Hebdo and who screamed for conspiracy for both terrorists attacks. This is coming from what we can call "french ghetto" youth but they're a vocal minority in the french muslim community as far as I know.

And also Canada lacks the historical tension between the muslim community (which most of comes from former colonies) and France, there's often resentment coming from that which can lead people to say stupid things.

I'm sure a French Imam would condemn it. I meant that I don't believe the response within the mosque would be as negative and more people might be convinced by the crazy ramblings.

And you raise an interesting point with France's colonialism. That definitely makes it even worse.

 

[Lamel]

raids could cause moderates to radicalize. moderates who radicalize and adopt extremist ideology have no need to be a part of france.

extremist ideology removal and inshopitablity /intolerance to its ideology >than saving moderates who are malleable to radicalizations.

Grade A logic, nailed it man...

 

[Mr Waluigi]

No worries then dude.



No arguments here that appears to be correct although I can only go off of what we've read in these articles.

lol, I meant "minority".
The article doesn't say the amount of affected Muslims isn't a minority, it states numbers and gives the opinions of people protesting against this in the first place

My point of contention is with how regardless of their religion, age, etc completely innocent people are being abused both physically and mentally. Plus with problems arising in word and even custody of children, that's reason enough to believe there's some form of racial discrimination going on here. The fact that an innocent disabled man got physically abused to the point of breaking his teeth leads me to believe that there is unfair searching going on, especially with what, 4 or 5 potentially terrorist related cases arising from all these raids and operations.

Police has a lot of information with unknown value, does everything it can to catch terrorists, most of it is obviously erroneous though
I really, really don't think there's racial discrimination going on. Not saying racism against Arabs isnt a thing in France (on the contrary, my mother could barely find any jobs in her entire life because of her clearly not French features or name) but I don't see what indicates these police "goofs" (to say the least) are racially motivated when, again, the emotions prevailing right now among authorities are the fear of a third wave of attacks, and the tiredness of having been on constant alert for months, which obviously affects morale and self-control during operations

The police needs to be less paranoid and pay more attention to information that could be plausible (I'm no policeman so I'm not saying that's not what they do, but considering how they raided a handicapped person's place and attacked them physically before realizing they messed up...)

 

[capitalCORN]

Punching the nose to spite the face. Clear and simple.

 

[The Wall]

What I do know is that if France had a sudden burst of Christian terrorist attacks, this is not how the country would act.

Another very good point that I wish more people would use to help perspective.