Jamesfrom818
Banned
Looks like Bieber cancelled French tour dates or something.
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France to run out of fuel in days as strikes escalate
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Hari Seldon
Member
Save your money and retire when you want FFS. You are not a fucking serf.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Funky Papa said:
France has that base covered too! :lol
SolidusDave
Member
I want to agree with these hot, young french chicks, so let me introduce the Hurling Day as the only alternative:
fortified_concept
Banned
ToxicAdam said:
It's not conspiracy theory, most of what I wrote in my post are either facts or very informed assumptions and deductions. Take what happened to Greece for example. Everything that happened was perfectly orchestrated by Goldman Sachs with the cooperation of the EU who knew everything about the corruption, the economic games Greek governments were playing with the suggestion of GS but let it happen because that's what they were planning for us. The corporations need cheap EU slaves and the banks more money to lend (and then get rid off the toxic debt to the EU central bank which is exactly what French and German banks are doing right now since sooner of later Greece's economy is either gonna collapse or they're gonna renegotiate the debt).
These are the facts. As for the informed assumptions it's no secret that governments all over Europe the last few months are using Greece as the ultimate tool of fearmongering to sell state property to corporations, reduce salaries, lay ruin on social services and increase pension age limits which makes me assume this too is a plan. It's the march of corporatism and it's happening so fast that even I'm losing track of it, and it's exactly how Klein was describing it for Chile, Bolivia, Argentina and other countries that went through it. This is an attack against all Europeans and we better wake up before it's too late.
http://videos.tf1.fr/jt-we/les-lyceens-de-montpellier-mobilises-6102495.html
Lycéens fucking shit up in my home town on national news Friday night. Some fools went and torched garbage bins in front of the high school most of my friends went to (and would have gone to had I not moved to Paris), resulting in the evacuation of the high school (were classes were maintained as it is a private high school). They interviewed one of the students (who IMO is hotter than any of the stupid fools in the OP), and she just bashed all the "manifestants", glorious :lol
The fools have no idea what they're doing in the streets, they're just glad to skip class. I was for increasing it up to 65, so complaining about it going up to only 62 is pure bullshit to me.
<- 19y-o, currently in France.
Lycéens fucking shit up in my home town on national news Friday night. Some fools went and torched garbage bins in front of the high school most of my friends went to (and would have gone to had I not moved to Paris), resulting in the evacuation of the high school (were classes were maintained as it is a private high school). They interviewed one of the students (who IMO is hotter than any of the stupid fools in the OP), and she just bashed all the "manifestants", glorious :lol
The fools have no idea what they're doing in the streets, they're just glad to skip class. I was for increasing it up to 65, so complaining about it going up to only 62 is pure bullshit to me.
<- 19y-o, currently in France.
empty vessel
Member
MagniHarvald said:
This is like walking into your boss's office and demanding a pay cut for yourself.
CharlieDigital
Banned
empty vessel said:
I can see why some people would do it, though. In your analogy, one might do it if it would save the job of coworker.
fortified_concept
Banned
nyong said:
It would be irony if I was talking out of my ass basing my argument on lies. Go ask any european if his country is taking the measures I just described or not. I didn't say Europe will become Chile but the tactics being used are extremely similar to the Shock Doctrine.
empty vessel said:
Explain please? I don't plan on living and working in France anyways, but since I'm, normally, going to live a longer life, and hence have a longer retirement, than the previous generations, I'm going to cost more money. Seems perfectly logic to me to work longer. Unless you prefer the other alternative, losing a bigger cut of my salary over the same period as previously?
empty vessel
Member
CharlieDigital said:
That's true. But, as the analogy shows, that's a last resort, not something to blithely do or suggest doing. And you better be pretty damn sure it's necessary before voluntarily acting to your personal detriment.
MagniHarvald said:
You will always have the option to work as long as you like. The question is when you can expect to see benefits. The position you are taking is adverse to your own interests. You are saying that you do not want retirement benefits to be available to you until a later age. If you have no intention on living and working in France, however, then I'm not sure your opinion about what France should do about its retirement age should garner any weight.
fortified_concept
Banned
CharlieDigital said:
...after he heard that his company is in trouble because his boss spent all the money on hookers and he's still in change, making profit from the company and still spending it on hookers...
CharlieDigital
Banned
MagniHarvald said:
Page 1: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23913661&postcount=84
Summary: a healthy dose of skepticism and due diligence is what any responsible voting public should respond with to calls for cuts in benefits.
Hari Seldon
Member
empty vessel said:
It is in his interest to want a higher retirement age if he plans on saving and investing on his own rather than rely on government programs. A lower retirement age brings on higher taxes, it isn't "free".
Raising the retirement age will make it harder for young people to get jobs, who will then cost the state money. And as others have pointed out in the thread, retired people can contribute to society as well and in that way make up for the cost they create by retiring. It's not a simple choice of raised taxes or a reformed retirement system.MagniHarvald said:
There are plenty of factors at play here that people on both sides aren't aware of or ignoring in the process of arguing for raised or maintained retirement ages.
fortified_concept
Banned
SmokyDave said:
On the top of my head: UK, Sweden, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Ireland, Portugal are countries taking these measures where the governments are using Greece to scare their citizens. Or did you mean the facts about Greece? I'll dig up the links if you want me to even though all you got to do to find out the basics is google Goldman Sachs + Greece.
fortified_concept said:
fortified_concept said:
Go ask any European? Why exactly does Europe need a "wake-up" if everyone is already in agreement with you? Then you draw an explicit parallel between what happened in Chile and what Europe is currently going through?
I'm not saying that you're completely wrong on every point, but the few slim pieces of evidence you provide are so far buried under hyperbole and arrogant self-assuredness that it's impossible for meaningful discussion to take place. Which is the point, I assume, when you couch the opposition's arguments in terms that suggest corporate brainwashing.
EDIT: Note that I am specifically referring to the "measures" as you described them...i.e. through obvious lies and fearmongering.
Personally, I think that Greece and France should be a warning for what's to come--the governments of Europe would be stupid and irresponsible to write off what has happened as somehow unique. France is at a virtual standstill because the government wants to raise the retirement age by 2 years...it's peaceful now, but what would happen if it were something (like Greece) that actually impacted their day-to-day life? Social programs can be useful for keeping the underclass content, but it can backfire spectacularly if you try to take them away.
How is it arrogant? They are uniformed. They are essentially destroying their own country. Going on like this simply isn't sustainable. The amount of working people compared to the non working is vastly decreasing(less child birth and babyboom generation going into retirement and longer living people). Are they fucking expecting the French government to create money out of thin air?Neo C. said:
I'd rather not have a job for 2 or 3 years then paying so much tax that I won't even have money left do anything. Or make government keep lending money to make up for the deficit, but the lending will go on forever and the debt also till government can't even pay the debts anymore. So they need go bankrupt(when this happens to a country it's not a pretty sight). USA gets away with the defecit since they are an economic superpower and the world pretty much trades in dollars.CharlieDigital said:
CharlieDigital
Banned
2San said:
lol
This is an abject failure in math and/or basic home-ec level economics.
I did mean Goldman Sachs & Greece predominantly but I'm googling it as we speak. I'll read around. You're certainly correct about the fearmongering but I can't help but feel you're doing a little of your own.fortified_concept said:
I'm not necessarily suggesting that you're wrong, just that you're coming across a little 'heavy'. Things like "The free market is not free and is being manipulated to execute the plans plans of a few" make it sound like you've seen one too many 'loose change' style documentaries.
CharlieDigital said:
The thing here is that this reform is just bringing back France to normal levels. It should have never been lowered to 60 in the first place.
Retirement in Europe:
Special regimes are also a huge problem. The private sector in France is fucked. The SNCF and RATP aren't even concerned by the ongoing reform, yet they still strike and fuck us up "by solidarity", bunch of lazy fucks!
fortified_concept
Banned
nyong said:
Oh stop with the strawmen again ffs, it's getting annoying. I already admitted that these are assumptions but considering how similar the tactics of european governments are the last few months and how fast they're trying to push all these measures they seem awfully similar to what Klein describes as the Shock Doctrine.
empty vessel
Member
Hari Seldon said:
I'm not sure how it works in France, but at least in the US his entitlement to retirement benefits won't depend on his personal retirement savings. The benefit is his, and the question is whether he has the opportunity to begin receiving it at a younger or older age. Maintaining the retirement age at the status quo does not have to translate to higher or more taxes for him. This, too, is subject to negotiation, and it goes back to the question of what an equitable distribution of the society's resources and wealth should look like, i.e., what segments/classes within the society lose and which gain or stay the same. I see no reason to voluntarily offer to be the class that loses unless it can be determined that everybody must lose.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
GaimeGuy said:
No we are going to ignore your comments because it is much more reassuring for us to imagine that the kids in France are too dumb to know what they are protesting. It makes us feel like we are a bunch of uneducated idiots!
Down with smart young girls! Especially if they're hot! I mean what are we, dumb AND ugly?? No, they are dumb!
/goes back to play WoW and jerkoff
victreeb3l
Member
mmm angry french girls
fortified_concept
Banned
SmokyDave said:
Fearmongering is being used predominantly to manipulate people into doing something they don't want through scare tactics. What I'm doing is called pessimism or realism or whatever you want to call it and it's my honest opinion since a) I doubt I'll manage to start a pan-european revolution from a videogame forum so I'm definitely not trying to manipulate people b) I don't have any hope that humanity will ever wake the fuck up and stop being used, at least not in my lifetime. Also, the free market is certainly not free and is being manipulated either from the central banks or the governments or the banking institutions all. the. time.
CharlieDigital
Banned
2San said:
I'm not and I haven't once suggested it in this thread. Even empty vessel, champion of Liberal values, hasn't said that that is the case.
The point is that before the people accept cuts, they better make damn sure that there aren't alternatives and that they're really necessary.
I like to think that in negotiations, all parties have to start from the furthest extremes with full intent of heading towards a middle ground compromise. This is a public negotiation and all sides need to start from extremes if they are expected to make concessions down the line. When I buy a car, I start from a low price that I know that the salesman won't sell me the car at. He starts from a high price that he knows that I won't buy it at. We work our way towards some compromise.
The fun part is 62 isn't sustainable either. The government pussied out already by only raising it by 2 years and people are still complaining.CharlieDigital said:
edit: actually I'm not sure, the french system is pretty different from what I initially assumed. Are are there actual calculations out that addresses this problem? Still the whole concept that pension age that doesn't increase with the average life span of people is bs to begin with.
maniac-kun
Member
In germany when the government decides something that we dont like we react like this:
The French get so much shit, but they are a fucking model for how to stand up and tell your government to eat a dick. They get right down to business by protesting and rioting over there and Americans need to take note: that's how you get shit done, not by complaining all the time but never taking the time to do anything about it.
Edit: Also...
WOULD to like...everyone in that picture except the dudes.
Edit: Also...
WOULD to like...everyone in that picture except the dudes.
Horsebite said:
Historically, the French have been very quick to revolt, and to revolt violently. The likely reason that these young protesters are all smiles is because the issue is raising the retirement age by 2 years. There is very little at immediate stake here. The reason Greece went up in flames is because they faced serious pay cuts, an immediate and substantial decrease to their quality of life. Hardly comparable.
And yes, shutting down the country does "get shit done" but I suspect some of you wouldn't be quite as gung-ho about people using this tactic if it were, say, the Tea Party.
fortified_concept
Banned
nyong said:
That's because the Tea Party is consisted of a bunch of ignorant hicks being used by corporations as their personal puppets. We already have enough puppets in our governments, the use of puppets demonstrating and rioting to protect corporate interests would only cause saturation.
fortified_concept said:
Everyone against the health care bill is an ignorant hick and a corporate puppet? Didn't we determine fairly conclusively that the health care bill favors the industry?
Or do you mean that corporations also incidentally tend to favor lower taxes, which is as obvious and inane a point as one could make?
*cue lengthy appeal to emotion*
gutter_trash
Banned
for the advocates who say ''cut spending, cut spending''; how much of the spending do you actually know where it goes?
2nd of all, before cutting essential programs, why not cut frivolous spending instead?
is Sarko ready to give up his limousine and palace?
seriously Right Wingers; why not cut in some unimportant areas before banging the ''cut social programs'' drums
to the people protesting; the government is holding the people's social security hostage; you know something that you pay into when you work during your pre-retirement life
2nd of all, before cutting essential programs, why not cut frivolous spending instead?
is Sarko ready to give up his limousine and palace?
seriously Right Wingers; why not cut in some unimportant areas before banging the ''cut social programs'' drums
nyong said:
to the people protesting; the government is holding the people's social security hostage; you know something that you pay into when you work during your pre-retirement life
UnluckyKate
Member
I was stuck in the train strike today. I took me 4 hours to make a 30 min round trip. Never again I'm taking the train in Paris. I'm geeking all week at my place. I don't need fuel, my place have electric heaters.
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