From Software responds to Dark Souls II graphics downgrade concerns

I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8

il0C8Xs.png
Click to expand...
 
CountAntonius said:
I hope this doesn't make them regret developing on PC's first. To me that was the real issue. That they started with great hardware and had to keep cutting and cutting and cutting till the game was playable on current hardware. If all this backlash means they will avoid the drama and start porting porting to PC again...*shakes fist*
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Of course that's not how I want this to end up either. I don't want FROM to regret developing on PC first.
But the big question is: Do they really, honestly used the PC version as lead platform? Is the PC version really that better/superior to the console version? I would love FROM to make use of the extra power on PC and then simply port everything down to consoles.

The problem here was the misleading marketing and the lack of communication. We don't know if the pre-release footage was from the soon-to-be PC version or completely seperate builds just for demonstating the game. I seriously believed the retail console version was going to look like the pre-release demos.
If they were more open about it then we wouldn't have this problem.
 
HyperBitHero said:
I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8
Click to expand...

*sigh* The differences in that corridor... It's depressing. And I'm not even talking about the dragons.
Thank you very much for making this video.

Edit for below: Grief.exe, you already posted those exact same screenshots a few pages back... At least put them into a quote, those are big pictures you know.
 
Part of the problem is that when they preview gameplay to the media and the media tells the public, 'big graphical improvement over the first game' then expectations are created.

Where the developer goes wrong is that they are showing the media one specific section of the game that runs well and looks good. They aren't conveying to them that large chunks of the game only run at 1-5 frames per second, in its current state, and graphics are an area that will get optimized (downgraded) in order to deliver a playable framerate. (One of the FuturePress guide writers said that the framerate was horrible, sometimes taking seconds before frames, he also said that though the graphics took a hit, he was impressed with how well the game runs and that it still looks close to the early builds they played)

There simply needs to be a disclaimer stating early build featuring target renders, all footage subject to change before final retail. The media needs to be given this disclaimer when they preview a game, and they need to make a point of telling this to the public. So yeah, transparency is needed across many different channels, and it's all relatively easy to accomplish.
 
Krusenstern said:
Of course that's not how I want this to end up either. I don't want FROM to regret developing on PC first.
But the big question is: Do they really, honestly used the PC version as lead platform? Is the PC version really that better/superior to the console version? I would love FROM to make use of the extra power on PC and then simply port everything down to consoles.

The problem here was the misleading marketing and the lack of communication. We don't know if the pre-release footage was from the soon-to-be PC version or completely seperate builds just for demonstating the game. I seriously believed the retail console version was going to look like the pre-release demos.
If they were more open about it then we wouldn't have this problem.
Click to expand...

At the Namco press site where I'm sure most websites get their screens and videos it's all the same for the three versions. Just one big pile of videos and screenshots from random builds. I really don't think it was purposely meant to mislead. I think the press always uses old builds for marketing but this time the difference was more noticeable because of the lighting in certain areas being gone.

HyperBitHero said:
I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8
Click to expand...

Reveal footage hasn't been used since. This is a nice glimpse of what the game could of been if it was PC and next gen only though perhaps.
 
Alebelly said:
The FuturePress guy said the rumors surrounding the PC build were that it will scale with however powerful your PC is.
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You know what, even if all that means is unlocked framerate and support to whatever custom resolution you have, that's already quite cool.
 
Alebelly said:
The FuturePress guy said the rumors surrounding the PC build were that it will scale with however powerful your PC is.
Click to expand...

I remain optimistic that PC and Next Gen versions will be MUCH closer to the original vision as I am sure they intended

Shame how much lower the console versions had to drop down to be playable though. But the footage does showcase what is possible from them on a more powerful platform assuming the PC version delivers as promised
 
HyperBitHero said:
I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8
Click to expand...

This is depressing.

The original reveal had such an amazing atmosphere. Is not about shinny graphics, is superior in every regard, even in the artistic one.

Gbraga said:
You know what, even if all that means is unlocked framerate and support to whatever custom resolution you have, that's already quite cool.
Click to expand...

Isn't that....the minimal regarding PC ports?
 
CountAntonius said:
I hope this doesn't make them regret developing on PC's first. To me that was the real issue. That they started with great hardware and had to keep cutting and cutting and cutting till the game was playable on current hardware. If all this backlash means they will avoid the drama and start porting porting to PC again...*shakes fist*
Click to expand...

The backlash is about a communication strategy that could be described as 'flawed' at best and deceptive at worst. If FROM had just flat out said 'our demos are on PC, we're not demoing 360/PS3 at this time' then all would be cool. Instead they brought build after unrepresentative build to journalists, trade events and via their own video and stills output, that's the problem.
 
Grief.exe said:
Is it crazy to try to get answers on a PC version that has been kept in the dark? A version that is currently on sale at every outlet that sells PC games?

The majority of these threads are less about whining, as performance concerns are a reality of this industry, and more about getting information.

Other than that, there are some legitimate arguments towards false advertising. There are many sections from the initial reveal used in promotional material that do not exist in any way, shape, or form in the console release.
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I'm with you on getting answers for the PC version completely.

I agree that this industry has issues communicating performance and technical information. But it is a problem that can't be solved in a simple way, and that's just the nature of software development. It's almost impossible to nail down technical specs before deadline. That's where it becomes the responsible consumer's job to wait until after release and after more information is available. Predordering and needing to have it the day of release are a bad trend that consumers need to begin to avoid as we see things like this happen more often.

My issues lie with the cries of false advertising. I don't think FROM intentionally went out of its way to deceive us, and I don't think it was in an effort to be deceptive. Just an unfortunate problem with marketing departments not being in sync with development. Which FROM obviously needs to work on. But this certainly is nowhere near the level that Aliens: CM was on.
 
Well that about made up my mind for me. I can't respect a response like this from FROM. Unless I see wind that the PC version is by some miracle (and lack of all common development sense) is still the same product I was being shown up until a week or two before launch of the console version, I won't pay more than a tenner for it.
 
CheesecakeRecipe said:
Well that about made up my mind for me. I can't respect a response like this from FROM. Unless I see wind that the PC version is by some miracle (and lack of all common development sense) is still the same product I was being shown up until a week or two before launch of the console version, I won't pay more than a tenner for it.
Click to expand...

I'm getting the PC version for my birthday

kid-birthday-hat-gif.gif
 
Lalalandia said:
The backlash is about a communication strategy that could be described as 'flawed' at best and deceptive at worst. If FROM had just flat out said 'our demos are on PC, we're not demoing 360/PS3 at this time' then all would be cool. Instead they brought build after unrepresentative build to journalists, trade events and via their own video and stills output, that's the problem.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think these thread have revealed how much they botched the marketing when it comes to distinguishing between versions

They should have taken cues from other Devs with Cross Gen games and been up front about what version is what.

Instead they seems to have blended and sent various PC/Console builds all over the spectrum. Pretty sure all review copies that went out on January were Retail though.

Not sure how the Playstation access shit got the build they did... Or were they just making a commentary video on prrecorded TGS playthroughs?

Who the fuck knows
 
DrROBschiz said:
Bets looks identical to me

Gonna need to see some comparisons
Click to expand...

Hard to find full beta playthroughs, but alright. I distinctly remember the intro, when you first go into a cave and it's pitch black. Bloodstains were all around the floor and helped guide you in a weird way, or you used a torch.

Yxiso9s.png


So here's a shot of that. Retail? No light needed, can see the edges clearly.

neqaxWs.png


Other main spot was when you climb the stairs and get attacked from the left right through the doorway, with an archer across a gap pestering you. There are boarded up windows that could be broken to help see as it was, again, pitch black.

Btt0ODH.png


Retail...the same mechanic is in play. But this is with unbroken windows.

yWgS7kw.png
 
Lalalandia said:
The backlash is about a communication strategy that could be described as 'flawed' at best and deceptive at worst. If FROM had just flat out said 'our demos are on PC, we're not demoing 360/PS3 at this time' then all would be cool. Instead they brought build after unrepresentative build to journalists, trade events and via their own video and stills output, that's the problem.
Click to expand...

Is this usually done though? Does marketing highlight drastic changes in games graphics and have separate screenshots, trailers etc for different version? I'm asking because on the press site there is no distinction between the 3. So if I was to make a preview for the console version and I went there for screens and footage I would be using the wrong footage and falsely advertising without even knowing. I think it absolutely should be handled different but is it something most companies do when they advertise or is it a common practice we only noticed because of this games obvious graphical changes?
 
Papercuts said:
Hard to find full beta playthroughs, but alright. I distinctly remember the intro, when you first go into a cave and it's pitch black. Bloodstains were all around the floor and helped guide you in a weird way, or you used a torch.

Yxiso9s.png


So here's a shot of that. Retail? No light needed, can see the edges clearly.

neqaxWs.png


Other main spot was when you climb the stairs and get attacked from the left right through the doorway, with an archer across a gap pestering you. There are boarded up windows that could be broken to help see as it was, again, pitch black.

Btt0ODH.png


Retail...the same mechanic is in play. But this is with unbroken windows.

yWgS7kw.png
Click to expand...

How does the comparison change when you swing the brightness slider?
 
zma1013 said:
Wait umm, where is the dragon head and arm at in the retail? It appears to not be there at all as he's walking down, and then magically appears later?
Click to expand...

When you walk into the area, it leaps out and attacks you, so when I get up to the stairs where the demo starts, it's already gone, so I spiced in the animation when it happens in the demo for comparison purposes. I put an annotation, but you might not have seen it.
 
HyperBitHero said:
When you walk into the area, it leaps out and attacks you, so when I get up to the stairs where the demo starts, it's already gone, so I spiced in the animation when it happens in the demo for comparison purposes. I put an annotation, but you might not have seen it.
Click to expand...

That's exactly what happens, yes.
 
HyperBitHero said:
I went ahead and made a video comparison of the areas in the second half of the April 2013 demo. Side by side sort of thing again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFQoLN89_j8
Click to expand...

Good job with these. You're just crushing my hope more and more each time :P

It kills me that I'll never get to play the game on the top-left. I'm expecting the PC version to be slightly better than what's on the bottom-right =(

Also, Grief, must you post those screenshots on every page of every thread related to this? =P
 
Papercuts said:
Hard to find full beta playthroughs, but alright. I distinctly remember the intro, when you first go into a cave and it's pitch black. Bloodstains were all around the floor and helped guide you in a weird way, or you used a torch.

Yxiso9s.png


So here's a shot of that. Retail? No light needed, can see the edges clearly.

neqaxWs.png


Other main spot was when you climb the stairs and get attacked from the left right through the doorway, with an archer across a gap pestering you. There are boarded up windows that could be broken to help see as it was, again, pitch black.

Btt0ODH.png


Retail...the same mechanic is in play. But this is with unbroken windows.

yWgS7kw.png
Click to expand...

I thought they said they were going to remove the lighting the player emits. Not sure why they put it in.
 
neoenigma said:
Good job with these. You're just crushing my hope more and more each time :P

It kills me that I'll never get to play the game on the top-left. I'm expecting the PC version to be slightly better than what's on the bottom-right =(

Also, Grief, must you post those screenshots on every page of every thread related to this? =P
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that the April reveal was likely a vertical slice that has never been seen in any subsequent footage.

And, yes, I have to keep posting that image because its just so damn gorgeous. I apologize if you are browsing on mobile.
 
CountAntonius said:
Who would ultimately be to blame for advertising with old footage? From or Namco?
Click to expand...

Depends whether new footage was sent or not. If From supplied footage that wasn't used, it's Namco at fault. If they didn't supply footage full stop, it's From at fault.

My *gut* - and I stress it's just the gut - would suggest that it's Namco at fault, simply by virtue of the fact that when I was developing, our PR folks would periodically ask for the very latest footage for any given reel; I find it very hard to believe that a request for fresh footage wasn't made. Now, that said, it could still be From's fault; they may have assured Namco that the old footage was perfectly adequate, or (and this one rings *very* true), had too much to do on the game that they didn't have time to devote a couple of guys to putting together a fresh reel.

That's assuming we're working with video footage made at From. There's also the possibilty that Namco handled the video capture, and if that's the case, I don't think I can find fault with From; Namco absolutely would have access to the very latest version of the game, because at the very least they'd have done a spell of testing on it, that wouldn't have been entirely tested in-house.

There is a third (albeit minor) possibility: That at the time the footage was delivered, that *was* a representative look of the game. These things still have some lead time.
 
As many have mentioned before, it's not just lighting that's been gutted, it's map and environmental redesign, assets being taken out, color pallete changes, things looking completely different. The footage shown last year looks like a remake of Dark Souls II from a generation higher.

For the PC version I'd seriously be surprised if anything shown last year is intact, hell I'd be surprised if it looks like it did a month ago. If it does, then they truly did develop this for the PC first, and then just fucked over the console owners by giving them a different game.There's downgrading, and then there's just completely changing the look and details of the layout of the game, and this happened within less than a year.

I'm not trying to bag on FROM, and I actually think Dark Souls 2 looks great 90% of the time. But I've never seen such a quick and ferocious change of a game in such a short amount of time with a game of this size, meaning they worked their asses off to make changes this drastic to get the games running on consoles.
 
CountAntonius said:
Is this usually done though? Does marketing highlight drastic changes in games graphics and have separate screenshots, trailers etc for different version? I'm asking because on the press site there is no distinction between the 3. So if I was to make a preview for the console version and I went there for screens and footage I would be using the wrong footage and falsely advertising without even knowing. I think it absolutely should be handled different but is it something most companies do when they advertise or is it a common practice we only noticed because of this games obvious graphical changes?
Click to expand...

They don't highlight 'Feature X is gone' but you can tell from the videos released closer to launch. Look at Watch_Dogs, they had to have known the kicking they were in for but Ubisoft released the Story trailer anyway. It may cost them sales, not mine I was disappointed but the game is the game and that still sounds fun, but they did it anyway.

I think FROM are one of a privileged minority of developers that players trust to deliver gameplay so the downgraded visuals and the loss of the mechanic were even less likely to cost sales. It's also clear that DS2 is still a good game but to have not simply trusted their audience and been up front about it means they join the ranks of Gearbox as developers I'll await reviews for.
 
CountAntonius said:
I hope this doesn't make them regret developing on PC's first.

They had to keep cutting and cutting and cutting till the game was playable on current hardware.
Click to expand...

If the PC only has resolution the original lighting as intended and framerate increase, but still borked on downgraded scenery/geometry and all those other things like consoles than it's totally borked game and ppl should take to the streets.
 
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