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[RoboGeorgeForeman]

Are you fucking kidding me man?
Just look at how the character slides his feet when strafing (at 30:12):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zk6UQg-hHfQ

In comparison just check Dark Souls 1 strafing and how much more weight the strafing animations have (at 1:37) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXD9C0S2S70

Does this happen all the time or is it not as apparent at higher encumbrances? I haven't noticed it being that bad during either of my play throughs. Guess it's also possible I just wasn't paying attention to the player's feet.

 

[sublimit]

Does this happen all the time or is it not as apparent at higher encumbrances? I haven't noticed it being that bad during either of my play throughs. Guess it's also possible I just wasn't paying attention to the player's feet.

It's apparent since the beggining of the game...

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

It's apparent since the beggining of the game...

Weird. I just wasn't paying enough attention I guess. Disappointing that the sliding issues weren't fixed as I remember seeing that during the early previews.

 

[Kazaam]

Here you go:

Dark Souls 2:

Dark Souls 1:

Great example.

Hi Kazaam, sorry I was talking about the Souls games as the franchise, I did play Demons Souls back in 2009. I still think the message/invasion/pool of blood system is miles ahead of what we can call innovative nowadays I understand some of the criticism but maaaybe sometimes you guys go too far. Some of the animations are rough and some boss battles arent that great. Dark Souls was amazing, for instance, but the last couple of areas seemed rushed and very, very boring. At least DS2 doesnt have that imo, all the areas (okay, except Shrine) are very nice to visit.

I understand that. We go too far because we're fans and we expect the best. Is it a great game? Hell yes. I spent and will spend hours on it without regret. Is it a good Souls sequel? Is it the Godfather 2 to The Godfather? That's where it gets tricky cause I don't think it is. I think it's a step back. I think it enhances some gameplay mechanics instead of the whole package. Previous Souls games were haunting and they would follow me long after. It was an organic experience which I don't find here. What I found here was a great challenging fun game that I would recommend to others and I would be very pleased with if it would be the first one of Souls games I've played. As a Souls fan I expected despair (not in terms of difficulty, but in terms of a world so crushing and haunting that would affect me as much of the others). The problem with the "different teams" issue (I did a list in a different thread, still incomplete though, but will post the link if you want) is that I think the team behind Dark Souls made a bigger achievement in Souls term with the Artorias DLC than this team did with the Dark Souls 2.

As for downgrade, besides the obvious middle finger in your face reason of "it's development and this shit happens" so we must forgive false advertising (which really makes me support piracy for their statement of "try it for yourself and please support if you like"). Besides that, it hurts the game. Did you really not thought about the torch mechanic while playing the game? For me the downgrade right now, after playing the game, is more about that than the graphics. I felt the torch was a reminder of "we failed" (sometimes I would use the torch just to like spice it up a bit, but still doesn't work). However as a filmmaker, lighting is crucial for me, and as I said in the other thread the changes are dramatical.

We almost went from this type of "night" (previous versions)

to this type of "night" (retail)

The implications about immersion are quite clear I suppose.

 

[Ghazi]

I don't know man. I'm not seeing any differences other than the player in the DS1 pic plays like a spaz. In both look like the travel independently to me.

*snipped the rest of the post because it could probably interpreted as thread whining*

While it does seem a little spazzy, I agree there, look at the way it's moving in relation to the ground. The DS2 one appears to be sliding, with just a walking animation there as he glides over the floor. To showcase this better, I grabbed this (bad) gif.

It's difficult to describe, but again, look at the positions of the feet with the ground.

 

[Grief.exe]

Does this happen all the time or is it not as apparent at higher encumbrances? I haven't noticed it being that bad during either of my play throughs. Guess it's also possible I just wasn't paying attention to the player's feet.

Something like that just stands out more when seen in direct comparison. If you were not looking for that initially you wouldn't be as likely to notice.

 

[RoboGeorgeForeman]

Something like that just stands out more when seen in direct comparison. If you were not looking for that initially you wouldn't be as likely to notice.

Now I wish I hadn't noticed. Even the walking animation is starting to seem floaty.

 

[SaberEdge]

The only problem here that I see is not that changes had to be made as development progressed (which is normal and expected), but that they were so recently showing off a much better looking version of the game which would lead most people to believe that would be the quality of graphics we would be getting in the final game.

 

[tengiants]

WHile it does seem a little spazzy, I agree there, look at the way it's moving in relation to the ground. The DS2 one appears to be sliding, with just a walking animation there as he glides over the floor. To showcase this better, I grabbed this (bad) gif.

It's difficult to describe, but again, look at the positions of the feet with the ground.

Okay I agree, that looks good. Thanks for going through the effort. I've spent over 100 hours on both games though at this point and never noticed. I'm really surprised that it's taking nit picking like this to make an issue worth over 40 pages of posts on neogaf.

 

[SargerusBR]

WHile it does seem a little spazzy, I agree there, look at the way it's moving in relation to the ground. The DS2 one appears to be sliding, with just a walking animation there as he glides over the floor. To showcase this better, I grabbed this (bad) gif.

It's difficult to describe, but again, look at the positions of the feet with the ground.

Now i can see it

this is a much better gif to make a comparison.

 

[Ghazi]

Now i can see it

this is a much better gif to make a comparison.

Okay I agree, that looks good. Thanks for going through the effort. I've spent over 100 hours on both games though at this point and never noticed. I'm really surprised that it's taking nit picking like this to make an issue worth over 40 pages of posts on neogaf.

I think the problem with the first DS1 gif was that it was in an enclosed area that was also a little uneven (darn you New Londo stone ground!!!), so the camera wanted to jump around a lot. I made sure to grab a capture from an open, flat one.

 

[sublimit]

Now I wish I hadn't noticed. Even the walking animation is starting to seem floaty.

Actually the differences in the walking animations were the first i noticed (ever since the online test).Unfortunately they kept them the same in the final game even though From had said that they would have tried to improve them for the release.:/

 

[TheCongressman1]

One of the biggest visual peeves I have with this game are the animations in general. There were some weird ones in DS1, but not ones that you have to see the entire game. The walking just looks so odd. Armor doesn't seem to have any weight to it, but they did an amazing job of that in the first...

With regards to the comparison gifs above: For those saying DS1 looks 'spazy', that's because it should. If you were to start shuffling randomly around fast like that, your feet aren't going to neatly slide around like in DS2. It looks really unnatural to glide around like that.

Still, it would be nice if someone could make a comparison with them walking in a straight line. It's still incredibly obvious that the movement doesn't look right.

There's just no reason that an almost constant animation should be that off when the first game had it almost perfect.

 

[Kiant]

i wish this thread was about helping people with the game instead of bitching about something that isn't going to change. great game...i'm loving it. All marketing is misleading...get over it. does a big mac look like its commercial? or does a big king look like its commercial? soooo many examples of this happens all time time in various different industries. hell i'm still waiting on my nike shoes to help me play basketball better...lol.

Maybe you should read the title of the thread...

"From Software responds to Dark Souls II graphics downgrade concerns"

This isn't a thread to help each other, it's here to discuss concerns about the graphics. I'm sure the game will be enjoyable but lets not detract from the point of this thread.

 

[Garcia]

Now I wish I hadn't noticed. Even the walking animation is starting to seem floaty.

You're beginning to refine your critic eye. It's for the best, trust me.

 

[sublimit]

Still, it would be nice if someone could make a comparison with them walking in a straight line. It's still incredibly obvious that the movement doesn't look right.

I agree!I would have made them myself but i'm not very good and Make A gif isn't working for me now (it just takes forever to create the gif).

So Ghazi please help us!

 

[Garcia]

I agree!I would have made them myself but i'm not very good and Make A gif isn't working for me now (it just takes forever to create the gif).

So Ghazi please help us!

Seconded.

 

[Reubeucent]

While i do understand the frustration, and the downgrade IS disappointing.

The souls series thrived on the backs of consumers who were willing to value gameplay and core mechanics over graphical fidelity.

Honestly, once you get over the graphics, the game is great. It's more souls, what more could you have possibly needed...

I'm really not doubting the game's integrity as a Souls game, I'm doubting the developers behind it. I LOVED Dark Souls and Demon's Souls regardless of how frustrated I got with both of them at times and while DS2 looks to be great fun, I'm not going to ignore and just shell out $50-60 bucks when they clearly mislead people. I'm sick of it in this day and age.

I also expected better from them. I don't have many game devs that I buy from anymore because I'm tired of their petty antics. Day-1 DLC, season passes, arbitrary additions that don't add anything of value to a series and idiotic reboots like Splinter Cell and Thief. Until From Software can prove to me that they don't need to lie to their fans about a fraudulent lighting system that was supposed to ADD depth, not remove it and amazing graphics then I'll give them my money. Until then it's a pass.

If they never touted the lighting system, posted a trailer with amazing graphics that are bullshit, OR had them in the stress test beta I wouldn't have had a problem, but they did and are going back on their word. And any excuse is a poor one, especially when the Xbone and PS4 are out and PCs are still able to easily keep up with the latest consoles.

 

[Night_Trekker]

So... downgrades from earlier builds and bullshots is nothing remotely new, and it happens every singe generation multiple times, but people are OUTRAGED that it happened and are butthurt that FROM "lied" to them? Really?

I'm not making any comment about the state of DS2 (haven't played it, waiting for PC version), but it's almost like some of you just started playing video games.

 

[tengiants]

Maybe you should read the title of the thread...

"From Software responds to Dark Souls II graphics downgrade concerns"

This isn't a thread to help each other, it's here to discuss concerns about the graphics.

I'm all for discussing graphics personally. I do find it especially interesting that I've put hundreds of hours into Dark Souls 1 and 2 and never noticed the type of animation differences that are clearly being demonstrated here. What does that say about my eye for detail, that I maybe even thought I had?

To me the problem is the graphics discussion is happening under the guise of a 'downgrade' because I don't believe that a 'downgrade' (in the software development sense of the term) actually exists here. It's all really sensational and hyperbolic, and the #YOULIED campaign etc seems outlandish when all we're seeing different builds is all.

 

[Dick Justice]

I'm all for discussing graphics personally. I do find it especially interesting that I've put hundreds of hours into Dark Souls 1 and 2 and never noticed the type of animation differences that are clearly being demonstrated here. What does that say about my eye for detail, that I maybe even thought I had?

To me the problem is the graphics discussion is happening under the guise of a 'downgrade' because I don't believe that a 'downgrade' (in the software development sense of the term) actually exists here. It's all really sensational and hyperbolic, and the #YOULIED campaign etc seems outlandish when all we're seeing different builds is all.

On another note, I'm fucking sick of people trying to excuse the misleading bullshit by talking about the gameplay, I don't give a fuck about the motherfucking gameplay in a discussion about the visual downgrade and how FROM essentially lied to their fans. Motherfucker.

 

[Y2Kev]

So... downgrades from earlier builds and bullshots is nothing remotely new, and it happens every singe generation multiple times, but people are OUTRAGED that it happened and are butthurt that FROM "lied" to them? Really?

I'm not making any comment about the state of DS2 (haven't played it, waiting for PC version), but it's almost like some of you just started playing video games.

I don't understand. I'm "outraged" that From sold a product that doesn't really resemble what I got. I'm not butthurt. Are you projecting?

Why are so many people having such basic trouble reading?

 

[Reubeucent]

I don't understand. I'm "outraged" that From sold a product that doesn't really resemble what I got. I'm not butthurt. Are you projecting?

Why are so many people having such basic trouble reading?

It's the internet. People do it all the time to make themselves feel better.

 

[Kiant]

I'm all for discussing graphics personally. I do find it especially interesting that I've put hundreds of hours into Dark Souls 1 and 2 and never noticed the type of animation differences that are clearly being demonstrated here. What does that say about my eye for detail, that I maybe even thought I had?

To me the problem is the graphics discussion is happening under the guise of a 'downgrade' because I don't believe that a 'downgrade' (in the software development sense of the term) actually exists here. It's all really sensational and hyperbolic, and the #YOULIED campaign etc seems outlandish when all we're seeing different builds is all.

Tbh I'm the same, seeing these gifs has reminded me how much of a blind bastard I am, but then again it's hard to scrutinise a game that allowed you rag doll the bodies of enemies around your feet .

See, the problem with that argument is it's not dissimilar to people hating on Watch Dogs, yet because that's Ubisoft and not Fromsoftware, Ubi get shat on and From get a free pass. Don't get me wrong, Ubi has had a bigger history of doing this kinda thing but it's more we are being sold this game based on falsehood. I remember the reveal placing a massive importance on this new lighting engine, they focused on that and the torches, plus it made the environment look even more atmospheric.

If it's removed from consoles (which we know it is), part of me understands but the other part thinks "why the hell even show that under the guise of being on consoles?". However if the PC doesn't even get access to these features then why even focus on that at a reveal event? Development and testing will always effect a game, chances are the lighting was killing the 360's and PS3 Frames and they decided to can it for them but it's no excuse to remove it from the PC version too. It's been there in demo stations the press have used and if the PC version doesn't get these features then it has been downgraded.

I will still enjoy the game either way, but I'll have to think twice before I really trust something Fromsoftware shows in the future.

 

[Ghazi]

I agree!I would have made them myself but i'm not very good and Make A gif isn't working for me now (it just takes forever to create the gif).

So Ghazi please help us!

Seconded.

I'll look some footage up.

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'm all for discussing graphics personally. I do find it especially interesting that I've put hundreds of hours into Dark Souls 1 and 2 and never noticed the type of animation differences that are clearly being demonstrated here. What does that say about my eye for detail, that I maybe even thought I had?

To me the problem is the graphics discussion is happening under the guise of a 'downgrade' because I don't believe that a 'downgrade' (in the software development sense of the term) actually exists here. It's all really sensational and hyperbolic, and the #YOULIED campaign etc seems outlandish when all we're seeing different builds is all.

...

 

[Persona7]

On another note, I'm fucking sick of people trying to excuse the misleading bullshit by talking about the gameplay, I don't give a fuck about the motherfucking gameplay in a discussion about the visual downgrade and how FROM essentially lied to their fans. Motherfucker.

Wow, no need for ad hominem.

 

[Fdkn]

So after platinumin' dks2 I decided I wanted to replay the first one (I had planned to do it before the release but never got the time for it) and I remember reading through this thread that some people think that after the downgrade the game is looking worse than the first one...

And really, that's just impossible. Maybe they got their memories mixed with the PC port or sumthing but I was really astonished of how "ugly" is dks in comparison with the sequel, it's not even near it. And the difference in resolution strikes you brutally, it took me almost an hour to get used to it and I'm really not the type of guy that cares about the graphics.

Talking about ps3 in both cases obviously. I know the thread is more about the "fake marketing" that the quality but I felt like sharing that thought after reading those comments.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Good god you people are nuts

I was on oard the criticism but you guys going going into way to much details

The original games dont even hold a candle to this insane level of scrutiny. And it mostly unwwarranted outside of the graphical downgrade. .. which should have been addressed and was partly to blame because they either

- rushed development
- compromised for consoles

Im all for the criticisms but you guys are painting a picture that we should burn some witches, cancel orders, and never touch a souls game again.

Its still a fantastic product even with the full consumer perspective following the exposure of the downgrade.

Clearly From/Namco are aware of the issue and will be hammered about it in future development. Id say goal accomplished.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The original games dont even hold a candle to this insane level of scrutiny. And it mostly unwwarranted outside of the graphical downgrade. .. which should have been addressed and was partly to blame because they either

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Dark Souls releasing in a dramatically downgraded state from the pre-release footage. Furthermore, I don't recall FROM talking big about improving the visuals over Demon's Souls. It's all about expectations. Is that so hard to understand?

 

[Dick Justice]

Wow, no need for ad hominem.

Do you even know what ad hominem means?

I'm not attacking the people making these arguments, but rather the arguments themselves. Which are fucking stupid and irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Ghazi]

That floating.

 

[Kiant]

Good god you people are nuts

I was on oard the criticism but you guys going going into way to much details

The original games dont even hold a candle to this insane level of scrutiny. And it mostly unwwarranted outside of the graphical downgrade. .. which should have been addressed and was partly to blame because they either

- rushed development
- compromised for consoles

Im all for the criticisms but you guys are painting a picture that we should burn some witches, cancel orders, and never touch a souls game again.

Its still a fantastic product even with the full consumer perspective following the exposure of the downgrade.

Clearly From/Namco are aware of the issue and will be hammered about it in future development. Id say goal accomplished.

Think it's more the fact we have been hit with the quick 1, 2. First Watch dogs and now this. Although Ubi does have priors so we have to expect that from them. That's what's annoying about gaming in general, we have to expect developers to bullshit us.

I'm sure I will enjoy Dark souls 2, burning human effigy's instead of witches but I'm still jaded by the fact we have to just accept that developers can bullshit us with pretty pictures and gameplay and then be totally fine when the finished product looks worse graphically, whilst the majority of gaming press think "it's not a big deal"

 

[sublimit]

So after platinumin' dks2 I decided I wanted to replay the first one (I had planned to do it before the release but never got the time for it) and I remember reading through this thread that some people think that after the downgrade the game is looking worse than the first one...

And really, that's just impossible. Maybe they got their memories mixed with the PC port or sumthing but I was really astonished of how "ugly" is dks in comparison with the sequel, it's not even near it. And the difference in resolution strikes you brutally, it took me almost an hour to get used to it and I'm really not the type of guy that cares about the graphics.

Talking about ps3 in both cases obviously. I know the thread is more about the "fake marketing" that the quality but I felt like sharing that thought after reading those comments.

Wow i don't think i have ever dissagreed with a post more than this one.
And you leave no common ground for discussion either.It's like we're both in the same place but you are saying that outside it's night and i say it's bright day.It's not even a matter of point of view.

Btw i've been replaying Dark Souls for almost a month now (on PS3) and in terms of animations/graphics it simply destroys the sequel.

 

[Orthogonal]

Good god you people are nuts

I was on oard the criticism but you guys going going into way to much details

The original games dont even hold a candle to this insane level of scrutiny. And it mostly unwwarranted outside of the graphical downgrade. .. which should have been addressed and was partly to blame because they either

- rushed development
- compromised for consoles

Im all for the criticisms but you guys are painting a picture that we should burn some witches, cancel orders, and never touch a souls game again.

Its still a fantastic product even with the full consumer perspective following the exposure of the downgrade.

Clearly From/Namco are aware of the issue and will be hammered about it in future development. Id say goal accomplished.

I don't see this at all. Most criticism and scrutiny in this thread is very level headed and measured. There are no pitchforks that I can see,just an overly critical analysis. It is hard to read someone's tone from text alone, but just because people are posting things that are negative about the game doesn't' mean they are hate spewing or calling for a witch hunt.

 

[UrbanRats]

Something like that just stands out more when seen in direct comparison. If you were not looking for that initially you wouldn't be as likely to notice.

People have been bitching about the animations from the very first footage, though.
I know I did.

 

[Ghazi]

Btw i've been replaying Dark Souls for almost a month now (on PS3) and in terms of animations/graphics it simply destroys the sequel.

I think, definitely in terms of animations, a reason for it is how From used mocap for Dark Souls 2, while they used keyframed animations for DS1.

I have yet to see anything in DS2 as gorgeous as some of the animations in DS1. However, there must have been some advantages, for them to have chosen mocap this time around, I'm not too sure what. Dark Souls 1 has some serious eye candy, in the animations department, though.

Some without a black background, or slowed.

And before anyone pulls any "these are from pc" arguments, the animations were keyed at 30fps, so they'd be the same on both consoles and PC.

 

[sublimit]

I think, definitely in terms of animations, a reason for it is how From used mocap for Dark Souls 2, while they used keyframed animations for DS1.

I have yet to see anything in DS2 as gorgeous as some of the animations in DS1. However, there must have been some advantages, for them to have chosen mocap this time around, I'm not too sure what.

They used mocap in DS1 as well (i noticed it some days ago when i was comparing the credits between the two games) but this time they have gone full way with mocap anf unfortunatelly it shows.For DS2 they used 3 mocap studios (Animaroid INC,IMAGICA Corp,Just Cause Productions INC) while for DS1 they only used only 1 (IMAGICA Corp).

 

[Kiant]

Haha that is an amazing gif. Love the little walk after, like he's just out on a nice stroll.

 

[Servbot24]

That floating.

Off topic.

 

[Gorillaz]

Ghazi's gif overload almost killed chrome and possibly my laptop 3 times over lmao.

I do miss the "shine" DS1 had....especially on Ornstein's armor

 

[Garcia]

That floating.

There it is. The weightless character movement in Dark Souls 2 stands out. Thank you Gazi.

Also:

I miss the original Zweihander moveset. The 2nd. hit is completely awkward now and really unpractical for most situations. It also feels lighter than DS1's Zwei.

 

[sublimit]

Notice the weight of his steps.it looks as if he's really walking down a stairwell.Find some footage from a character in DS2 walking down a stairwell and see how it looks in comparison.

Off topic.

Are you a mod?

 

[Gbraga]

dem gifs

 

[DrROBschiz]

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Dark Souls releasing in a dramatically downgraded state from the pre-release footage. Furthermore, I don't recall FROM talking big about improving the visuals over Demon's Souls. It's all about expectations. Is that so hard to understand?

The level of backlash seems to be escalating beyond its original scope

Just pointing out that people are going a bit too crazy over this.

 

[Ghazi]

There it is. The weightless character movement in Dark Souls 2 stands out. Thank you Gazi.

No problem.

Ghazi's gif overload almost killed chrome and possibly my laptop 3 times over lmao.

I do miss the "shine" DS1 had....especially on Ornstein's armor

Sorry about that, they just look so good I couldn't resist linking all of them, I'll remove a few.

The shine was definitely pretty nice, yeah. Some of the armors in Dark Souls 2 do have it in certain areas, though, and it looks better sometimes.

Off topic.

Huh? People were asking for those? We've been comparing the floaty walking animation to Dark Souls 1.

Haha that is an amazing gif. Love the little walk after, like he's just out on a nice stroll.

It truly is!

They used mocap in DS1 as well (i noticed it some days ago when i was comparing the credits between the two games) but this time they have gone full way with mocap anf unfortunatelly it shows.For DS2 they used 3 mocap studios (Animaroid INC,IMAGICA Corp,Just Cause Productions INC) while for DS1 they only used only 1 (IMAGICA Corp).

Yeah, they definitely used it a lot more this time around.

 

[Orayn]

Notice the weight of his steps.it looks as if he's really walking down a stairwell.Find some footage from a character in DS2 walking down a stairwell and see how it looks in comparison.

That's because Dark Souls uses inverse kinematics for foot placement. I could just as easily show you a clip where your character's heels are bending at crazy unnatural angles when you're running up an incline.

 

[Dick Justice]

Off topic.

Why? Because it doesn't serve your own agenda?

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

I see. Is there any reason to worry about it though? I mean, i love good graphics and animation, but havnt people who worry about this played Demons's Souls and/or Dark Souls? If they have, they know what Dark Souls 2 would be like too.

If only Namco and From hadn't deceived us all with their tech demo...

The lighting effects downgrades were minor if anything. They are still there, just not as strong or pronounced in some areas,
Playing through all those areas (represented by tiny compressed gifs posted here) & I barely noticed them looking that different from the original footage.

That floating.

If you could do a comparison of rolling and jumping animations that would be great. DS2 animations lack the initial acceleration of such motions so they look completely unnatural.

 

[Alo81]

I think, definitely in terms of animations, a reason for it is how From used mocap for Dark Souls 2, while they used keyframed animations for DS1.

I have yet to see anything in DS2 as gorgeous as some of the animations in DS1. However, there must have been some advantages, for them to have chosen mocap this time around, I'm not too sure what. Dark Souls 1 has some serious eye candy, in the animations department, though.

*hot gifs*

Some without a black background, or slowed.

*even more*



And before anyone pulls any "these are from pc" arguments, the animations were keyed at 30fps, so they'd be the same on both consoles and PC.

I made a lot of these, and you can find most of them here.

You should use the Sta.sh links because they'll load a LOT faster than Minus.