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[slit]

I agree with why she's in jail, but I think the punishment is too severe. There should be faster ways to deal with government officials who are out-of-line. That's what I'm trying to say here. I am not trying to place her above the law. The judge could have simply fined her and waited for her impeachment, but made excuses for not doing so.

No it isn't. People go to jail for contempt of court all the time. Fining her isn't going to make her do shit since people will give her money to pay any fine that would be handed down.

 

[CornBurrito]

Members of NAMBLA who rape and molest children are simply acting on their beliefs. It has to do with beliefs whether people like to admit that or not. I for one applaud blue5 for having the courage to stand up for True Believers.

 

[blue5]

It's not a strawman, it is a direct comparison. Read what you wrote in bold. "somebody should be able to do something how they want if it is their belief"

You can then supplement "somebody" with anybody and "something" with anything.
Ex: I should be able to shoot you because it is what I personally believe.

What you are basically doing is saying Christian beliefs somehow are more important than other beliefs and any actions thereof should be exempt from legal prosecution.

So refusing a marriage license is the same as shooting someone? Ok. :

Members of NAMBLA who rape and molest children are simply acting on their beliefs. It has to do with beliefs whether people like to admit that or not. I for one applaud blue5 for having the courage to stand up for True Believers.

I guess you missed my point about severity. Can't blame you for going along with the crowd, though.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Members of NAMBLA who rape and molest children are simply acting on their beliefs. It has to do with beliefs whether people like to admit that or not. I for one applaud blue5 for having the courage to stand up for True Believers.

]

 

[rjinaz]

So refusing a marriage license is the same as shooting someone? Ok. :

It is the same in that they are both against the law. Obviously one is more severe than the other but go ahead and throw in an example that is similar like not paying taxes or not allowing women driving licenses based on religious or personal beliefs.

Should these people not be in trouble with the law? Serious question.

I guess you missed my point about severity. Can't blame you for going along with the crowd, though.

So we're now at the "hivemind" point if the discussion I see. "I'm not wrong, it's just that everybody else is being influenced by the popular opinion."

 

[norm9]

So refusing a marriage license is the same as shooting someone? Ok. :



I guess you missed my point about severity. Can't blame you for going along with the crowd, though.

They're both against the law.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

I guess you missed my point about severity. Can't blame you for going along with the crowd, though.

She is ignoring a supreme court ruling, is that not severe?

 

[blue5]

Obviously one is more severe than the other

Yes, thank you.

She is ignoring a supreme court ruling, is that not severe?

Certainly not as severe as shooting someone in the face, wouldn't you say? OR, more specifically, molesting children.

 

[slit]

I guess you missed my point about severity. Can't blame you for going along with the crowd, though.

Oh great, now we have a message board martyr to deal with.

 

[blue5]

Oh great, now we have a message board martyr to deal with.

Throw me in jail :^)

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

I agree with why she's in jail, but I think the punishment is too severe. There should be faster ways to deal with government officials who are out-of-line. That's what I'm trying to say here. I am not trying to place her above the law. The judge could have simply fined her and waited for her impeachment, but made excuses for not doing so.

Straw man.

Fines absolutely would not work here. She could sit on fines or pay them, as has been said, and continue not to issue licenses.

And there's no evidence that anyone is willing to impeach her.

Any way you look at it, she'd have to end up in jail.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

Yes, thank you.



Certainly not as severe as shooting someone in the face, wouldn't you say? OR, more specifically, molesting children.

You said severity should factor in to whether someone should go to jail or not for being in contempt. I wasn't referencing the comparison of shooting someone to what she is doing.

 

[rjinaz]

Yes, thank you.

You're welcome. But just because something is less severe is it not the an action that is against the law because of a belief?

Thankfully deciding which laws should be followed through are not decided by blue5. I do urge you not to use that as a defense though if you ever get pulled over for a speeding ticket. "But sir or madame, it is my religious belief that I must drive as fast as my spiritual deity of choice"

 

[Gotchaye]

I get the Judge's reasoning, but at the same time, I kind of wish he had fined her. Get money for the city, and that fundraising coffer won't last forever.

This strikes me as tricky to pull off. Like, it's sort of bizarre to set a one-time fine which is far beyond her ability to pay without outside help, but if you set a fine appropriate to her income she's barely going to notice because of the donations she'll get to help pay it. Something similar could be said for a repeating fine that she incurs each day that she refuses to issue marriage licenses. As soon as the fundraising dries up she's instantly bankrupt, and if the fundraising doesn't dry up then she's got no reason to back down. Now, probably it's worth it to just not issue marriage licenses in this county for a few months in exchange for millions of dollars, but I don't know that that's a decision a judge should be making.

 

[Christine]

She doesn't get to choose who gets married in Rowan County, she's empowered to be the person responsible for saying that marriage applications being approved and registered in her office are legal and valid. Her job is to apply the law to these decisions, not her beliefs. That is what the judge essentially said to her: my job is to apply the law to this decision, not my personal beliefs, and that is why I am ordering you sent to jail.

 

[blue5]

You're welcome. But just because something is less severe is it not the an action that is against the law because of a belief?

Thankfully deciding which laws should be followed through are not decided by blue5. I do urge you not to use that as a defense though if you ever get pulled over for a speeding ticket. "But sir or madame, it is my religious belief that I must drive as fast as my spiritual deity of choice"

So you'd rather everyone be given the same punishment for differing crimes? I'm not sure I follow your point here. I never said the law should be ignored, perhaps changed a bit, but not ignored.

 

[TheLegendOfMart]

So you'd rather everyone be given the same punishment for differing crimes? I'm not sure I follow your point here. I never said the law should be ignored, perhaps changed a bit, but not ignored.

What punishment do you propose then for ignoring a ruling of the supreme court, a dismissal of an appeal to amend Kentucky law to exempting her from issuing gay marriage licences, breaking her oath of office and being in contempt?

 

[rjinaz]

So you'd rather everyone be given the same punishment for differing crimes? I'm not sure I follow your point here. I never said the law should be ignored, perhaps changed a bit, but not ignored.

Of course not. But whatever the law is, is the law. One does not get to disobey the law because of personal beliefs regardless of how petty of a crime it is. In this case, disobeying the orders of the judge has the legal consequence of jail.

You are suggesting this person should be exempt because of their beliefs. That's not how the legal system works. Everybody is treated the same.

You want to argue for the changing of laws, then fine, but that's neither here nor there. Even if the laws were changed by the time that happened this woman would not benefit. Her jail time is appropriate right now.

It feels like you are trying to ignore the situation at hand, saying, well it shouldn't be this way so I cannot accept it. Well it is. And if it was you or I in contempt of court, we'd be in jail to regardless of what beliefs we have.

 

[Aselith]

So you'd rather everyone be given the same punishment for differing crimes? I'm not sure I follow your point here. I never said the law should be ignored, perhaps changed a bit, but not ignored.

Changing laws to accomodate people's personal beliefs as they crop up individually is a can of worms no one wants to open and for good reason.

 

[Christine]

So you'd rather everyone be given the same punishment for differing crimes? I'm not sure I follow your point here. I never said the law should be ignored, perhaps changed a bit, but not ignored.

I don't think the ability of the judiciary to imprison elected government officials who actively impede the legal functioning of their own office and openly defy court orders should be removed. Do you mean that the law should be changed to mitigate this instance? That's a valid position to hold, but the Governor of Kentucky decided that since this is an issue affecting only a small portion of the state that he's okay with her being in prison until January, he's not going to make the people of the state pay the expense of a special legislative session.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

So you'd rather everyone be given the same punishment for differing crimes? I'm not sure I follow your point here. I never said the law should be ignored, perhaps changed a bit, but not ignored.

She refused to do her fuckin' job multiple times, dude. It got to the point where the highest court in the country told her to do her job, and she still refused.

Stop acting like this happened all in one day. She was given multiple outs. She chose none of them. It escalated to the point where jail was the only option.

And if you seriously think this is about beliefs and not money, I have a bridge to sell you. She could have quit at any time, but she enjoys getting 80k a year too damn much. Also, do you know how many talk show and book deals she'll get out of this?

Kim Davis knew exactly what she was doing.

 

[blue5]

You are suggesting this person should be exempt because of their beliefs. That's not how the legal system works. Everybody is treated the same.

Not at all. I'm saying she should lose her job via suspension or impeachment, and possibly be fined. It's better than tossing her in jail and making her a martyr for other like-minded individuals. You're going to say, "they can't do that until January", and I know that. But it is my opinion that she should not be jailed, but removed from office and stripped of power. That's now how the system works, I know, but it would be nice if it did work that way. I'm not trying to stir up the pot here, I am simply stating my opinion on the subject. I don't support her beliefs or her behavior at all. Right now she's sitting in jail still getting a paycheck, basically being a parasite on the system. I don't like that. I don't see how anyone could.

Of course she is in jail. That's how the law is set up. I could sit here and say: "she's in jail because that's how the system works", but that would make a boring discussion. I'm attempting to discuss possible alternatives.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

Changing laws to accomodate people's personal beliefs as they crop up individually is a can of worms no one wants to open and for good reason.

I get what your saying, but laws change because of personal beliefs, hence why gay marriage was finally made not illegal. I think that's the right way to phrase it, because people realize that gay marriage shouldn't be illegal, and as a result, it made it legal by default. I'm not trying to be captain obvious, I'm just trying to say the perspective changed in how people approach the issue.

This clerk is approaching it through the eyes of her religion, and of course being a public official, means its a big no no.

I bet she is the type that wants to ban sharia law, lmfao. As she should want and everyone else, but of course they see America as a christian nation and don't get the point of what fleeing religious persecution was really about. England dictated how religion should be and how social laws should be. She is acting like the same thing people are defending her with.

Now, should she go to jail? I don't know the laws on that. I don't like how she is in jail for an indeterminate amount of time, though. Is there going to have to be an impeachment of her?

 

[slit]

Not at all. I'm saying she should lose her job via suspension or impeachment, and possibly be fined. It's better than tossing her in jail and making her a martyr for other like-minded individuals. You're going to say, "they can't do that until January", and I know that. But it is my opinion that she should not be jailed, but removed from office and stripped of power. That's now how the system works, I know, but it would be nice if it did work that way. I'm not trying to stir up the pot here, I am simply stating my opinion on the subject. I don't support her beliefs or her behavior at all. Right now she's sitting in jail still getting a paycheck, basically being a parasite on the system. I don't like that. I don't see how anyone could.

She is going to be a martyr to those people anyway. No matter what they do. Her going or not going to jail won't change anything about that.

 

[Aselith]

Not at all. I'm saying she should lose her job via suspension or impeachment, and possibly be fined. It's better than tossing her in jail and making her a martyr for other like-minded individuals. You're going to say, "they can't do that until January", and I know that. But it is my opinion that she should not be jailed, but removed from office and stripped of power. That's now how the system works, I know, but it would be nice if it did work that way. I'm not trying to stir up the pot here, I am simply stating my opinion on the subject. I don't support her beliefs or her behavior at all. Right now she's sitting in jail still getting a paycheck, basically being a parasite on the system. I don't like that. I don't see how anyone could.

Of course she is in jail. That's how the law is set up. I could sit here and say: "she's in jail because that's how the system works", but that would make a boring discussion. I'm attempting to discuss possible alternatives.

She would be a martyr if she were fined too. As soon as she became the woman who defied the system to stand up for GOD, she became a martyr regardless of the punishment. The judge chose jail because she had the support of the religious community to offset fining.

I get what your saying, but laws change because of personal beliefs, hence why gay marriage was finally made not illegal. I think that's the right way to phrase it, because people realize that gay marriage shouldn't be illegal, and as a result, it made it legal by default. I'm not trying to be captain obvious, I'm just trying to say the perspective changed in how people approach the issue.

You don't get what I'm saying. I mean they would be changing it for this one person's personal stance. Gay marriage was changed because of a countrywide shift in how we feel about the subject. It was an overall societal shift.

 

[rjinaz]

Not at all. I'm saying she should lose her job via suspension or impeachment, and possibly be fined. It's better than tossing her in jail and making her a martyr for other like-minded individuals. You're going to say, "they can't do that until January", and I know that. But it is my opinion that she should not be jailed, but removed from office and stripped of power. That's now how the system works, I know, but it would be nice if it did work that way. I'm not trying to stir up the pot here, I am simply stating my opinion on the subject. I don't support her beliefs or her behavior at all. Right now she's sitting in jail still getting a paycheck, basically being a parasite on the system. I don't like that. I don't see how anyone could.

Of course she is in jail. That's how the law is set up. I could sit here and say: "she's in jail because that's how the system works", but that would make a boring discussion. I'm attempting to discuss possible alternatives.

I think you agree with most everybody then. I think most would just prefer her to be removed if that were an option as opposed to jail so there really is little else to discuss there. If that were the case though she would likely just resign anyway. Not sure why she can't do that now. Well yeah I do know, she wants to be the martyr.

 

[blue5]

She is going to be a martyr to those people anyway. No matter what they do. Her going or not going to jail won't change anything about that.

You may be right, but her being jailed has certainly turned this into a huge news story which means more exposure.

 

[CorvoSol]

She's in jail because of her actions influenced by her beliefs. This has to do with beliefs whether people like to admit that or not. But, I can tell we're going around in circles with this, so I'll stop here.

Her actions put her in direct contradiction of an oath she swore to God.

Now, I confess it's been a few years since I last studied the Holy Writ with any real effort, but last I checked you don't go backsies on Oaths you swear to God. Even if she should reject the authority of the American government, she swore to the Lord God Omnipotent that she would uphold the duties of her position. By rejecting these duties because they offend her, she's broken faith with the Lord of Hosts.

So if she can't be trusted to uphold her fealty to the Deity she pledges allegiance to, one finds her inaction being rooted in honest theological disagreement with the new laws to be completely questionable.

If she had wanted to maintain her integrity before the God to whom she swore this Oath and express her disagreement, she should have stepped down.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

You don't get what I'm saying. I mean they would be changing it for this one person's personal stance. Gay marriage was changed because of a countrywide shift in how we feel about the subject. It was an overall societal shift.

Was trying to say that too, just meant that tons of people changed their beliefs.

 

[Tripolygon]

So refusing a marriage license is the same as shooting someone? Ok. :

But her religion makes no distinction between crimes against God's law. To her, a murderer is the same as being gay, or a liar. They will all incur God's wrath and burn in hell for eternity.

In fact, she is committing sin by defying the law of the land

1 Peter 2:13-17(KJV)

• 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
  
• 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
  
• 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
  
• 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
  
• 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Romans 13:2 ESV

• Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Not gonna get into the whole 10 commandment thing and other laws in the bible about loving your neighbor and thou shall not judge so ye may not be judged, etc etc.
Surely you see the irony of the situation she purposefully put herself in?

 

[Alavard]

You may be right, but her being jailed has certainly turned this into a huge news story which means more exposure.

Even if that's true, that's not a compelling argument for jailing being the wrong punishment. Punishments should not be contingent on the way the public will react.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Her actions put her in direct contradiction of an oath she swore to God.

Now, I confess it's been a few years since I last studied the Holy Writ with any real effort, but last I checked you don't go backsies on Oaths you swear to God. Even if she should reject the authority of the American government, she swore to the Lord God Omnipotent that she would uphold the duties of her position. By rejecting these duties because they offend her, she's broken faith with the Lord of Hosts.

So if she can't be trusted to uphold her fealty to the Deity she pledges allegiance to, one finds her inaction being rooted in honest theological disagreement with the new laws to be completely questionable.

If she had wanted to maintain her integrity before the God to whom she swore this Oath and express her disagreement, she should have stepped down.

The thing here, though, is that someone with Kim Davis' mindset doesn't give a shit about God. She only cares about her interpretation of God and how it fits in with her prejudice.

 

[rjinaz]

But her religion makes no distinction between crimes against God's law. To her, a murderer is the same as being gay, or a liar. They will all incur God's wrath and burn in hell for eternity.

In fact, she is committing sin by defying the law of the land

1 Peter 2:13-17(KJV)

• 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
  
• 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
  
• 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
  
• 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
  
• 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Romans 13:2 ESV

• Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Not gonna get into the whole 10 commandment thing and other laws in the bible about loving your neighbor and thou shall not judge so ye may not be judged, etc etc.
Surely you see the irony of the situation she purposefully put herself in?

Christianity is like the ultimate "pick and choose" religion. Actually I'm not sure I ever met two Christians that believe exactly the same things in regards to their religion.

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

But her religion makes no distinction between crimes against God's law. To her, a murderer is the same as being gay, or a liar. They will all incur God's wrath and burn in hell for eternity.

In fact, she is committing sin by defying the law of the land

1 Peter 2:13-17(KJV)

• 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
  
• 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
  
• 15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
  
• 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
  
• 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Romans 13:2 ESV

• Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

Not gonna get into the whole 10 commandment thing and other laws in the bible about loving your neighbor and thou shall not judge so ye may not be judged, etc etc.
Surely you see the irony of the situation she purposefully put herself in?

I wonder if she has ate shrimp before... And those three divorces too....

 

[googleplex]

So refusing a marriage license is the same as shooting someone? Ok. :
.

She's denying someone their constitutionally protected rights. You can handwave the severity of that all you want to. Fortunately the law and the judge doesn't share your flippant attitude.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Facebook has Mike Huckabee trending with his support of Davis... I looked and read the comments. =( People's lack of understanding of the situation, why she's in jail and how the Supreme Court and the U.S. Constitution works is depressing. Even more so when it's elected or formerly elected individuals, regardless of whether it's just pandering to a base or not.

screaminginternally.gif

 

[blue5]

She's denying someone their constitutional rights. You can handwave the severity of that all you want to. Fortunately the law and the judge doesn't share your flippant attitude.

Nothing flippant about it. The law called for a fine or jail, as far as I'm aware. The judge opted for jail time. I disagree with the judge's ruling. That's it.

 

[reckless]

Nothing flippant about it. The law called for a fine or jail, as far as I'm aware. The judge opted for jail time. I disagree with the judge's ruling. That's it.

Because if she was just fined she would continue to stop her deputy clerks from issuing licenses.

 

[LostCaress]

They should let her keep her job, fine her 220$ per day (about 80k per year), and explicitly use the fine money to fund a bus to take gay couples to the next county, and pay for a little reception. Send her pictures of the reception.

So now she's working for basically no pay marrying heterosexual couples and funding marriages of homosexual couples.

 

[rjinaz]

Nothing flippant about it. The law called for a fine or jail, as far as I'm aware. The judge opted for jail time. I disagree with the judge's ruling. That's it.

Which is effectively saying "I care more about her not being in jail than I do about gay people being discriminated against indefinitely"

 

[blue5]

Which is effectively saying "I care more about her not being in jail than I do about gay people being discriminated against indefinitely"

Uh, how? I'm not saying she should go without punishment. Marriage licenses can be issued or declared valid in other states. This woman isn't the foremost authority on this.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

They should let her keep her job, fine her 220$ per day (about 80k per year), and explicitly use the fine money to fund a bus to take gay couples to the next county, and pay for a little reception. Send her pictures of the reception.

So now she's working for basically no pay marrying heterosexual couples and funding marriages of homosexual couples.

Not really a punishment for her though, she'll make ridiculous amount of money off her sympathizers and the right who will trot her out to speak, hell that's going to happen anyway.

 

[blue5]

Not really a punishment for her though, she'll make ridiculous amount of money off her sympathizers and the right who will trot her out to speak, hell that's going to happen anyway.

She's making money sitting in a jail cell. How is that any different?

 

[rjinaz]

Uh, how? I'm not saying she should go without punishment. Marriage licenses can be issued or declared valid in other states. This woman isn't the foremost authority on this.

She gets fined and continues her work. She still denies licenses to gay couples for months to come. They are then being discriminated against. It doesn't matter if they can go to another county/state or not. The discrimination has still occurred.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

To all the religious people that are supporting Kim Davis, answer this for me:

Would you be cool if an atheist county clerk decided that he/she would refuse to issue marriage licenses to Christians because it conflicts with his/her worldview/beliefs?

You would be cool with them standing up for what they believed in?

 

[PopeReal]

Uh, how? I'm not saying she should go without punishment. Marriage licenses can be issued or declared valid in other states. This woman isn't the foremost authority on this.

Luckily we already have the foremost authority.

 

[Aselith]

She's making money sitting in a jail cell. How is that any different?

Because the money isn't going to help her get out of jail.

 

[Citadelofmythoughts]

Uh, how? I'm not saying she should go without punishment. Marriage licenses can be issued or declared valid in other states. This woman isn't the foremost authority on this.

Those black folks don't need to eat at this diner, they can go to one in another county/city.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

She's making money sitting in a jail cell. How is that any different?

Because she's sitting in jail...

 

[Fj0823]

Uh, how? I'm not saying she should go without punishment. Marriage licenses can be issued or declared valid in other states. This woman isn't the foremost authority on this.

Ah, yes, "Just go to another state", what a reasonable argument. Meanwhile, she keeps on being a biggot. Denies people of their rights, and homophobes everywhere declare it a win against the gay.

Screw that, her ass in jail is what the world needs to see.