Why is it so important to you that she avoid jail? She's being held for contempt, she's not on death row. She understands the laws and she is being held under her own choosing. If she disagrees with the court order so vehemently, then she can resign.
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From Tupac to Rosa Parks: KY county clerk Kim Davis says "Only God can judge me now"
- Thread starter mj1108
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Why is it so important to you that she avoid jail? She's being held for contempt, she's not on death row. She understands the laws and she is being held under her own choosing. If she disagrees with the court order so vehemently, then she can resign.
Zoe
Member
The couples would have to drive to that other county. Other clerks don't have authority in her county.
That's why she wanted the law to be changed so another official from her county could sign it.
I really doubt she does. Otherwise she'll not be in this whole mess.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
metalslimer
Member
Seriously this lady has been given so many chances to get out of jail that people arguing she shouldn't be in jail seem to miss the point that she wants to be in jail to prove her point
I've gotta say.. I get a perverse bit of amusement that the judge in this case is a Dubya appointee. You can tell that it grates at the FreeRepublic crowd. And it's nice to take that whole "black-robed liberal thugs!" talking point away from the evangelical crowd. Imagine the howls of indignance if this were an Obama appointee taking these actions.
I'll also point it out for the umpteenth time: judges matter. In this era, EVERYTHING controversial is tested in court. Keep this in mind next November.
I'll also point it out for the umpteenth time: judges matter. In this era, EVERYTHING controversial is tested in court. Keep this in mind next November.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
She values money over her faith, she is willing to go to jail to keep her $80k a year job. It's disgusting.
Well, if she didn't before, then she certainly does now. She's made a conscious choice to continue her "political strike" if you will, and I'm sure her lawyer has explained to her exactly what that entails.
Most people do. This is America after all. The almighty dollar rules all.
You're taking every opportunity to defend her. Kind of curious why? Do you agree or sympathize with what she is doing?
People saying "But what about her beliefs?!"
What about the people who have been legally wed who just want their fucking marriage certificates? What about their rights? She's some no-name, small-time government employee in a county of ~20k people in Kentucky. Her job isn't even to wed people, it's to make sure the people can legally get married and all the documents are in order.
Who the fuck is she to make herself an authority on marriage and deprive others of their rights?
What about the people who have been legally wed who just want their fucking marriage certificates? What about their rights? She's some no-name, small-time government employee in a county of ~20k people in Kentucky. Her job isn't even to wed people, it's to make sure the people can legally get married and all the documents are in order.
Who the fuck is she to make herself an authority on marriage and deprive others of their rights?
I sympathize with the fact that someone is in jail because of their beliefs, regardless of how stupid those beliefs are.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
She's not in jail because of her beliefs.
She's in jail because she is in contempt of the court.
It is her choice to go to jail.
Link
The Autumn Wind
She's in jail because she's refusing to perform her duties as an elected representative of the state, not because of her beliefs.
Then she should resign. The courts are not there to bend to her will.
You're oversimplifying again. She is not in jail for her beliefs, she is in jail for not doing her job after being ordered by the courts to do so.
Having personal beliefs is fine, but those beliefs can't supersede the laws of the land. I can't claim that it is my religious belief not to pay taxes and not pay taxes. I can't claim that it is my religious belief to murder and then commit murder. I may believe those things and nobody can stop me from believing them, but I can't break the law regardless of said beliefs.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
she's not in jail because of her beliefs.
Civil Marriage has nothing to do with Religious Marriage
She's in jail because she's in contempt of court because of her beliefs.
I agree with you.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
she's in jail because she won't do her job, her beliefs are 100% irrelevant.
Count Dookkake
Member
If I shoot you, will I go to jail for believing you needed to be shot?
Whether or not she believes in gay marriage has no place in whether or not marriage licenses have to be given to lawfully wedded gay couples. She is denying them what's rightfully theirs. It's not her place to do so. She is in contempt for being out of line
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
If she doesn't agree with gay marriage then don't get gay married.
She doesn't get to pick and choose what parts of the constitution she wants to abide by like she does with the bible.
She was elected and took an oath, she is refusing to do her job and should step down but she won't because of her "beliefs" (money).
Tough titty.
You're not getting it. This is a classic separation of powers issue. The judiciary is not empowered to overrule the people's choice of county clerk. The legislature can do that, but the legislature is not in session. What the court is empowered to do is to issue an order to obey the law. How else do you enforce such an order?
This is the reason we have courts, this is what they're supposed to do as a governing agency in our society.
I agree with why she's in jail, but I think the punishment is too severe. There should be faster ways to deal with government officials who are out-of-line. That's what I'm trying to say here. I am not trying to place her above the law. The judge could have simply fined her and waited for her impeachment, but made excuses for not doing so.
Straw man.
Count Dookkake
Member
Nope. Get a better dictionary.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Her fine would have been paid by her bible thumping friends, that is no punishment for her to wilfully ignore a command issued by the courts, the punishment for contempt is jail.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
This is super important, I hope they show no mercy towards her so others know what to expect in case they even dare to think to pull this bullshit.
User 100115
Banned
But yes, valid point.
I don't understand why people aren't getting that she is not being jailed for being a Christian.
And I wish all these people screaming about persecution wouldn't just roll their eyes at the 'A Muslim who won't issue driver's licences to women' comparison.
Link
The Autumn Wind
The bold sentences contradict each other. You do understand what being in contempt entails, right?
All comtempt? Regardless of severity? This is what I disagree with.
Mine is brand new, thank you though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
They keep mentioning that there is not enough pressure to impeach her, but I don't hear any talk of recalling her. Is it that there is not enough public support in the country to recall her, or that they could not recall her if they wanted to?
I get the Judge's reasoning, but at the same time, I kind of wish he had fined her. Get money for the city, and that fundraising coffer won't last forever.
I get the Judge's reasoning, but at the same time, I kind of wish he had fined her. Get money for the city, and that fundraising coffer won't last forever.
Count Dookkake
Member
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
She is ignoring a ruling by the supreme court, I'm pretty sure that is severe.
I agree but Christian pockets are deep, just look at the amount of evangelical churches that say you can pay away your sins.
What's faster than going to jail. Why should gay couples who's legal rights are being violated wait for her to be impeached before they get married. Impeachment could take a long time. Would the Republican Kentucky Legislature even try to impeach her? Why should folks have to wait for the government to do it's job.
The judge did not make any excuses. He realized that a fine would not have been enough for the clerk's office to start finally respecting the constitutional rights of it's citizens. I believe he said that she would have gotten fined and still not followed the law. So he had to jail her because she was not willing to compromise and let the other clerks in her office issues licenses. Technically she was forcing her employees to follow her personal religious beliefs even if some of them were willing to issue licenses.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Well the one of the worse things about going to jail for people is they basically dont have a job when they get out and barely even have the opportunity to get another one, she still gets to keep her job and its not like she is on death row or whatever, she is essentially having no real consequences for being in jail.
This is pretty severe contempt. She is in open defiance, both in her actions to suborn the legal functioning of her office and her statements positioning herself as not in recognition of the authority of various courts.
She is not in jail because of her beliefs, but because of her actions to impede the law.
Yeah, unfortunately the people are now paying for both her salary as well as her room and board. The judge could have fined her $200 every day she refused to perform her duty, and that would have provided a nice bit of additional income for the county, but you also have to remember the human element here. People are being refused their marriage licenses, and is that worth the additional several months of income the government would have received? I say no.
She is in jail because she is essentially telling people "The courts may have said you can get married, and you may have been married by a justice of the peace, but I will not let you get married. I am the law." And continues to do so.
That's a pretty fucking severe contempt of court and disregard for the law. Why SHOULDN'T she be thrown in jail? WTF at people defending her in this thread
That's a pretty fucking severe contempt of court and disregard for the law. Why SHOULDN'T she be thrown in jail? WTF at people defending her in this thread
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Yup.
There were other Clerks who disagreed with the Supreme Court and resigned (think it was in Tennessee). Good for them I say. They have their moral objections, but they did not let it interfere with their public service jobs, and left to make room for people who would perform the job. Those people stuck by their conscious.
This is not a "consciousness objector" situation. She is not forced to perform this job. She chose to seek re-election last year knowing this ruling was a possibility. She no longer wants to perform the duties required of her position, but she wants to keep the job. That's not right.
She's being paid while in Jail? I figured there would be rules to automatically stop pay when someone is arrested and jailed.
I'm actually not certain, but I assume she is still receiving her salary. I could be wrong about that.
She's in jail because of her actions influenced by her beliefs. This has to do with beliefs whether people like to admit that or not. But, I can tell we're going around in circles with this, so I'll stop here.
Person 2 argues against a false but superficially similar proposition Y, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
Then step the fuck down, if her faith interferes with her job she can no longer fulfil her oath of office. She wants to keep her job and have a provision made especially for her so she doesn't have to issue marriage certificates for same sex marriages.
Same sex marriage is now legal in the law.
I wish I could have my job contract amended to give me less responsibilities with no penalty to my wage.
She has no one to blame but herself.
If you believe gay people are evil and then you go murder a gay person, you will be arrested for the murder, not the belief. It's that simple. Even Trump's saying, "sorry, it's the law."
You might be going around in circles, certainly.
User 100115
Banned
The point is, her religious beliefs should come no where near her doing her job as a state offical.
People would not be defending her if she were were a hard line Muslim denying marriage licences to women who weren't wearing hijabs.
Count Dookkake
Member
Yeah, that's not what happened.
No it's her INaction that's causing the problem. She does not get to break the law and tramp on others civil rights because of those beliefs especially when she has a viable alternative, which is to step down..
SliceSabre
Banned
Part of the reason they believe the judge chose jail instead of a continuous fine is because her answers during the contempt hearing suggested she had access to funds to make the fines irrelevant.
It's not a strawman, it is a direct comparison. Read what you wrote in bold. "somebody should be able to do something how they want if it is their belief"
You can then supplement "somebody" with anybody and "something" with anything.
Ex: I should be able to shoot you because it is what I personally believe.
What you are basically doing is saying Christian beliefs somehow are more important than other beliefs and any actions thereof should be exempt from legal prosecution.
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