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GAF, are Organic Foods a scam?

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http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/...anic-food-is-no-better-on-vitamins-nutrients/

OrganicFood.JPG


Patient after patient asked: Is eating organic food, which costs more, really better for me?
Unsure, Stanford University doctors dug through reams of research to find out -- and concluded there's little evidence that going organic is much healthier, citing only a few differences involving pesticides and antibiotics.
Eating organic fruits and vegetables can lower exposure to pesticides, including for children -- but the amount measured from conventionally grown produce was within safety limits, the researchers reported Monday.
Nor did the organic foods prove more nutritious.
"I was absolutely surprised," said Dr. Dena Bravata, a senior research affiliate at Stanford and long-time internist who began the analysis because so many of her patients asked if they should switch.
"There are many reasons why someone might choose organic foods over conventional foods," from environmental concerns to taste preferences, Bravata stressed. But when it comes to individual health, "there isn't much difference."
Her team did find a notable difference with antibiotic-resistant germs, a public health concern because they are harder to treat if they cause food poisoning.
Specialists long have said that organic or not, the chances of bacterial contamination of food are the same, and Monday's analysis agreed. But when bacteria did lurk in chicken or pork, germs in the non-organic meats had a 33 percent higher risk of being resistant to multiple antibiotics, the researchers reported Monday in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine.
That finding comes amid debate over feeding animals antibiotics, not because they're sick but to fatten them up. Farmers say it's necessary to meet demand for cheap meat. Public health advocates say it's one contributor to the nation's growing problem with increasingly hard-to-treat germs. Caroline Smith DeWaal, food safety director at the Center for Science in the Public Interest, counted 24 outbreaks linked to multidrug-resistant germs in food between 2000 and 2010.
The government has begun steps to curb the nonmedical use of antibiotics on the farm.
Organic foods account for 4.2 percent of retail food sales, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. It certifies products as organic if they meet certain requirements including being produced without synthetic pesticides or fertilizers, or routine use of antibiotics or growth hormones.
Consumers can pay a lot more for some organic products but demand is rising: Organic foods accounted for $31.4 billion sales last year, according to a recent Obama administration report. That's up from $3.6 billion in 1997.
The Stanford team combed through thousands of studies to analyze the 237 that most rigorously compared organic and conventional foods. Bravata was dismayed that just 17 compared how people fared eating either diet while the rest investigated properties of the foods themselves.
Organic produce had a 30 percent lower risk of containing detectable pesticide levels. In two studies of children, urine testing showed lower pesticide levels in those on organic diets. But Bravata cautioned that both groups harbored very small amounts -- and said one study suggested insecticide use in their homes may be more to blame than their food.
Still, some studies have suggested that even small pesticide exposures might be risky for some children, and the Organic Trade Association said the Stanford work confirms that organics can help consumers lower their exposure.
CSPI's DeWaal noted that difference, but added that the issue is more complicated. Some fruits and vegetables can harbor more pesticide residue than others -- she listed peaches from Chile as topping a recent testing list. Overall levels have dropped in North American produce over the last decade as farms implemented some new standards addressing child concerns, she said.
"Parents with young children should consider where their produce is coming from," DeWaal said, calling types grown in the U.S. or Canada "a safer bet" for lower pesticide levels.
As for antibiotics, some farms that aren't certified organic have begun selling antibiotic-free meat or hormone-free milk, to address specific consumer demands, noted Bravata. Her own preference is to buy from local farmers in hopes of getting the ripest produce with the least handling.
That kind of mixed approach was evident in a market in the nation's capital Thursday, where Liz Pardue of Washington said she buys organic "partially for environmental reasons." Pardue said she doesn't go out of her way to shop organic, but if she does, it's to buy mostly things that are hard to wash like berries and lettuce.
Michelle Dent of Oxon Hill, Md., said she buys most of her groceries from regular chain stores but gets her fruit from organic markets: "It's fresh; you can really taste it."
Anna Hamadyk of Washington said she buys only organic milk because she has a young son.
"I would love to buy everything organic, but it's just too much money," said Hamadyk, who also shops at local farmers markets.

I was wondering if no chemicals are used, then how do farmers keep the bugs out? I don't want to pay a premium price if there aren't much benefits eating organic foods.

This is an old article, but a friend warned me about purchasing organic foods. I'm convinced we're paying more just for the word "Organic". What do you guys think?
 

shira

Member
Depends. People have different reactions to pesticide ridden food.

They use like nets and natural predators to remove bugs.

Organic bananas that are ripe/discounted are perfect for cheap snacks. They do taste really good.
 

Matugi

Member
I am not fond of paying the extra prices but I find that at least the fruits from Whole Foods taste much better than the ones from a regular grocer.
 
Most of the places around central valley just throw a net around the what ever they are growing. Then spray the pesticide on the uncovered trees/bushes right next to the covered ones.
 

depths20XX

Member
Well the idea that they "taste better" or "are better for you" is definitely not true, so in that regard they are a scam, yes.
 

Kurdel

Banned
Yes.

I am convinced there is a lost of effort to make these foods and there certainly is a demand, but the effort is not worth it, seeing there are no tangible benifits.
 

Rootbeer

Banned
I love me some organic bananas. Some foods benefit more from the organic growing process than others. bananas maybe not as much as fruit or greens.

I think people should have more choice in how (and where) their food is grown, regardless of if it has much of an impact on the result's quality or healthyness. I tend to buy local when possible and local more often tends to be organic, it's that simple for me. This is northern california, fwiw.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
As someone who buys organic for 99% of all the stuff in our house, it's totally worth it in terms of taste and health. Don't confuse health with healthy. Organic food is not healthier in the sense that it has less calories, less sugar, more nutrition..it's healthier in the sense you don't have a fuck ton of chemicals that you don't need in your body. I'm not an expert, but my gut tells me a lot of the illnesses experienced nowadays stem greatly from all that shit you're fed. At least in certain nations.
 

robochimp

Member
For me, eating organic is, number one lowering my 2 year olds chemical load. If I can pay a little more for the things that are building the body my son will have for a lifetime I'll do it.

We shop at a co-op so that means we're supporting our community, we're supporting and creating jobs. A huge chunk of our groceries come from 30 miles or less away from the store. We buy more produce, we have less waste.

Our weekly grocery spending is about 10-15 dollars more per week than a regular grocery store.
 

Hari Seldon

Member
I think it is probably worth it for organic milk for toddlers due to the hormones in non-organic milk. I drink alcohol and shove nicotine in my body so I don't really care for myself lol.

Organic milk is:

Organic milk, according to the standards set by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, comes from livestock that must follow these guidelines:
- At least 30 percent of the food they eat must be grazed at pasture during a grazing season of at least 120 days;
- No antibiotics or growth hormones may be used;
- All feed must be organic, and
- No meat or poultry by-products can be in the feed.

Seems worth it. However note that only the US still allows growth hormones, most other western countries have banned this.
 
It does not have to be. Depends really on what you expect of it. However it does some things better than traditional industrial practices. Look at it this way if you are afraid of harmful pesticide in your food avoid buying commercial berries, grapes and strawberries since they absorb most of the pesticides. However many fruit and vegetables have many layers that block any toxins from entering. So doesn't have to be organic most of the time. There have been research that has seen how organic farming can be better for the soil than traditional commercial farming. However many organic farms are monocultures so they can be and are as bad as commercial farming methods. Biodiversity is important. So know your food and what you are paying and don't get swayed by marketing terms.

Aren't there suppose to be environmental benefits to organics?

Yes in many cases but the problem is that it is not food productive. Not as productive as standard ways of production. Also another problem is that organic food has a much shorter shelf life.
 

andycapps

Member
Of course this study isn't really concerned with it, but organic farming is much less efficient than farming with pesticides. The reason why pesticides were developed was to curb insects eating crops and such. Eating local and fresh produce is more important than eating organic.

I hope everyone is rinsing off their fruits and veggies before they eat them.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Aren't there suppose to be environmental benefits to organics?

There are benefits and there are downfalls. It's probably much better to focus on getting stuff locally than just organic.

so foods treated with lots of chemicals and pesticides are exactly the same as food that isnt treated with any of that?

Organic produce doesn't mean no pesticides. It just means all pesticides must be derived from natural sources rather than synthetic.
 
There are advantages and disadvantages. People who are organic-only make it seem like all food is literally set in a vat of chemicals like the "dip" in Who Framed Roger Rabbit? when it reality modern practices save more lives than they harm. That being said, I try to buy locally grown, organic food whenever possible, I'm just not a nut about it.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
If you eat organic, less meat, less dairy, more locally produced and don't eat refined sugars, I honestly believe that you live a healthier life with less impact on our planet. What's wrong about that? Is there any downside to that?
 
As someone whose main concern is flavor, I see absolutely no improvement when eating organic, and nothing at all to justify the increase in price.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
It's a marketing term

I see where you're coming from, but it's not true that there isn't a noticeable difference in the quality of the foods that are organic. For me, the easiest way I test people is give them a cup organic coffee. They immediately realize the difference.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
I don't think a lot of organic produce is supposed to have a different taste, it's supposed to be an environmental, ethical, etc. issue.

That said organic tomatoes taste different / better to me. And organic ginger. Also not all organic stuff is created equally. I'm sure there are noticeable differences between a small family farm's organic produce and the organic wal-mart aisle.
 

V_Arnold

Member
If you eat organic, less meat, less dairy, more locally produced and don't eat refined sugars, I honestly believe that you live a healthier life with less impact on our planet. What's wrong about that? Is there any downside to that?

There are no downsides to that. I think this as well. But apparently you are just a fool if you do not want to eat stuff that is delicious* and cheap, no matter where it came from or how it was possible to produce it so cheaply in the first place.

*If one's definition of delicious is full of sugar, oversalted, or simply spiced up like there is no tomorrow
 
Entirely depends on what they add to make it non-organic. Writing it off as a "marketing term" is ridiculous, guys. People put weird shit in foods.
 

kick51

Banned
I've never seen a sign at the store saying "organic is healthier." The only people who think that are dumb people.

Now, in terms of flavor, organic usually wins.

I do wonder about U.S. standards for labeling something "organic" though-- how much are they able to get away with before not calling it organic anymore
 

Dennis

Banned
No its not a scam but if people think that organic food is somehow miracle food that is necessarily healthy no matter what it is - they are being silly.

I eat organic, not exclusively though, to minimize my intake of pesticides etc. but I am not fanatic about it.
 

cbox

Member
so foods treated with lots of chemicals and pesticides are exactly the same as food that isnt treated with any of that?

It's easy to assume non-organic foods are dipped in terrible chemicals.

---

Sorry, I forgot one more marketing ploy that's going around nowadays. Not being able to pronounce something in the ingredient list automatically deems it terrible for you. Reminds me of the Dihydrogen Monoxide website that helps put things into perspective.
 

marrec

Banned
There's been no significant research done to show that 'organic' foods have any health benefits above and beyond 'non-organic' foods. However we do know that most 'organic' foods produce less yield per acre than 'non-organic'.
 

GungHo

Single-handedly caused Exxon-Mobil to sue FOX, start World War 3
It's all marketing.

Low Fat, low carb, organic, and now gluten free.

That shit is insane. It's everywhere and on things that never had anything to do with gluten. I'm surprised they aren't putting it on cars at this point.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
In most cases yes. I just buy whatever tastes best. Sometimes it's organic produce, other times 'inorganic'. Strawberries sold in supermarkets here for example taste like garbage compared to some locally grown stuff. I mean literally like garbage, I would love to see that episode of BS take on the strawberries here, lol. On the other hand, I prefer "non-organic" carrots, they just seem to taste better.

Btw, I think term organic is deceiving as they still use pesticide on that produce.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
I was wondering if no chemicals are used, then how do farmers keep the bugs out? I don't want to pay a premium price if there aren't much benefits eating organic foods.

This is an old article, but a friend warned me about purchasing organic foods. I'm convinced we're paying more just for the word "Organic". What do you guys think?
because they still use pesticides. The problem is, because there is little to no FDA regulation on "organic" food they can use pesticides that may be more harmful than normal ones

Yes, food is by definition "organic".

and this is my problem with "organic food"
 

V_Arnold

Member
That shit is insane. It's everywhere and on things that never had anything to do with gluten. I'm surprised they aren't putting it on cars at this point.

The most vile term I have yet to see is when I saw this on a 200g package of candy:
"FAT-FREE".

What does it contain then? Oh, not much, honey: 85g sugar out of 100g, some protein and some fiber. GG? But it is fat-free, yo!
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
I see where you're coming from, but it's not true that there isn't a noticeable difference in the quality of the foods that are organic. For me, the easiest way I test people is give them a cup organic coffee. They immediately realize the difference.

Eh, I think that's far from universal. There's a great deal of variation in quality in any kind of produce, like I can buy a thing of blueberries from a farm in Argentina one week and they're delicious, but I can buy another from another farm from Argentina the week later and they're terrible. By the same token, I've bought organic produce that tasted terrible and some that tasted great. As for coffee, I think that's a scenario where any organic blend is likely to be premium due to it's market, and most people are just used to the crappy cheap stuff they get at the corner joint or in a big metal tin.

I say refer to it as a marketing term because one, there's a lot of misconceptions surrounding it, and it's promoters seem to just be giving off the message that it's super healthy and lacks things like pesticides when that's not true at all. Secondly, I don't think the label does anything to tell you whether what you'll be buying is good or not when I think it's far more dependent on the farmer or producer.
 
Eating local and fresh produce is more important than eating organic.

I hope everyone is rinsing off their fruits and veggies before they eat them.
Organic produce doesn't mean no pesticides. It just means all pesticides must be derived from natural sources rather than synthetic.

These. One million god damned fucking times, THESE!

Organic foods being pesticide free is probably one of the most obnoxious and often repeated lies Ive seen. Neem, pyrethrin and even DEET are used as pesticides and yet considered 'organic'.

Your absolute best option* for produce is to buy locally grown. That alone will make the biggest difference in taste and nutrition, especially with things like tomatoes and other fruits with short shelf lives.

* Actually your best option is to grow it yourself. Once you've had a tomato fresh from the garden you can't really go back to grocery store cold storage ever again.

If you eat organic, less meat, less dairy, more locally produced and don't eat refined sugars, I honestly believe that you live a healthier life with less impact on our planet. What's wrong about that? Is there any downside to that?
Theres nothing wrong with what you described, except all but your first condition have nothing to do with the topic at hand. ;) Organic, sadly, has become a buzz word with next to no meaning.
 

Ryuukan

Member
That shit is insane. It's everywhere and on things that never had anything to do with gluten. I'm surprised they aren't putting it on cars at this point.

I think it has to do with things that you would think are gluten free normally being made in the same facility, cross contamination etc.
 

Divvy

Canadians burned my passport
Yes, less chemicals in your body the better.

ORGANIC PESTICIDES VERSUS SYNTHETIC PESTICIDES

Clearly, the less we impact our environment, the better off we all are. Organic farming practices have greatly advanced the use of non-chemical means to control pests, as mentioned earlier.
Unfortunately, these non-chemical methods do not always provide enough protection, and it's necessary to use chemical pesticides. How do organic pesticides compare with conventional pesticides?

A recent study compared the effectiveness of a rotenone-pyrethrin mixture versus a synthetic pesticide, imidan. Rotenone and pyrethrin are two common organic pesticides; imidan is considered a "soft" synthetic pesticide (i.e., designed to have a brief lifetime after application, and other traits that minimize unwanted effects). It was found that up to 7 applications of the rotenone- pyrethrin mixture were required to obtain the level of protection provided by 2 applications of imidan.

It seems unlikely that 7 applications of rotenone and pyrethrin are really better for the environment than 2 applications of imidan, especially when rotenone is extremely toxic to fish and other aquatic life.

It should be noted, however, that we don't know for certain which system is more harmful. This is because we do not look at organic pesticides the same way that we look at conventional pesticides. We don't know how long these organic pesticides persist in the environment, or the full extent of their effects.

When you look at lists of pesticides allowed in organic agriculture, you find warnings such as, "Use with caution. The toxicological effects of [organic pesticide X] are largely unknown," or "Its persistence in the soil is unknown." Again, researchers haven't bothered to study the effects of organic pesticides because it is assumed that "natural" chemicals are automatically safe.

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html
 
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