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[gollumsluvslave]

I'm in the camp that feels that the TV seasons (bar the odd dip hear and there - Season 5!!!) have steadily got better, whereas the novels, have steadily got worse (especially Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons)


Each to their own!

 

[eot]

I sort of agree with OP but I enjoyed the show for a time too. As time progressed though it became more and more clear how D&D are screwing up the writing. Some parts of the show really are shit.

 

[STILLethal]

Its the best show ever made next to Breaking Bad, k bye now

 

[Doc_Drop]

Op,I don't think you've been paying as much attention as you think as you seem to have taken some leaps in logic and misunderstood things, least from my perspective.

It's not the book, visual media requires different things than written

 

[Etrian Oddity]

He's right about Loras and Stannis tho. No show defender can refute that.

 

[Future Foundation]

Girl who read the books is upset that the screen adaptation is a problematic turd.

Well, if that's the case, it sounds like the TV show matches most of the books pretty well.

 

[pashmilla]

Op,I don't think you've been paying as much attention as you think as you seem to have taken some leaps in logic and misunderstood things, least from my perspective.

Such as? I'm genuinely curious.

 

[One Eyed Willy]

GoT is fine.

 

[cwmartin]

"the filthy casuals" has already come out lol. As if that degrades the quality, without even concerning the medium.

"Why doesn't this 1 hour long episode develop the backstory of minor characters like a 1200 page novel?"

 

[mantidor]

I was a show only watcher but season 5 was so abysmally bad I spoiled myself of the main plot points of the rest of the books to try to make sense out of the mess, it's when I realized how bad the writing was and how much better the books were, or at least how they were more consistent.

I watch it now only because of the dragons to be honest, best CGI dragons so far. I just turn off my brain at some points to not die of cringe.

 

[God Dayumm]

Tyrion does not rape anyone neither in the books nor in the show

 

[buttery fistful]

i enjoy the show for what it is, but agree with a lot in the OP

 

[Atraveller]

Remember that time when Petyr, whose ambition is as high as the Wall, and has his own spy network, didn't know who Ramsay Bolton was? Then he gambled with Sansa, his claim to the North, and thew her to the fucking Boltons?

 

[Nesotenso]

I think the books are superior to the show. Nature of the medium makes things harder to depict on screen. Having said that, I think the showrunners take things up a notch and I hate that. Being on HBO they can get away with gratuitous nudity and violence and the showrunners over indulge.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I think the books are far too dense for their own good. I have to remember so much and I don't feel I'm getting out what I'm putting in. Martin's a fun storyteller don't get me wrong but I don't think his structure really works for books so much as it works for the TV show where the scene changes can (though sometimes they aren't still, I leave that up to the quality of the direction) is be simultaneous and flowing in a way the books aren't and setting details can be left to the environment instead of cluttered words. It isn't ideal in reality but it's what I think GoT could work best as.

The books are too dense but the show should've been the faithful adaptation of them I feel because they could have easily been. For me there is no ideal way to experience this story which is a shame.

 

[Snagret]

I sort of agree with OP but I enjoyed the show for a time too. As time progressed though it became more and more clear how D&D are screwing up the writing. Some parts of the show really are shit.

Yeah, it's fun dark soap opera fantasy at its best, at its worst it's just embarrassingly bad and incoherent from a character motivation standpoint. It's major problem is just how inconsistent it is, even single episodes will have scenes and plotlines that vary wildly in quality. I enjoy watching it, but at this point I do so mostly out of obligation go the story and characters the first 2-3 seasons sold me on, not necessarily because I actually like what they're doing or because I think they'll pull it off with a satisfying conclusion to the series.

 

[Doc_Drop]

Such as? I'm genuinely curious.

This is going to sound like a cop-out but I'm on mobile and at work. Specifically though I think that Cersei was the one behind some of the machinations that you attribute to Jofrey, as how would Jofrey go after bastards that at no point he has shown he has any knowledge of? I thought the assumption would be Cersei taking care of business in the king's name.

I will admit I haven't read the books and therfore it is easier for me to enjoy and ignore differences however. Very rarely do book and the visual version match well,especially in this episodic nature, and especially given some of the scenes. There is a soap opera feel, and I wouldn't hold it to the highest standard of writing, but it's great boxset TV.

 

[hampig]

I like it. It stumbles sometimes but it also has some great moments. More of the latter than the former by far imo.

 

[Byakuya769]

A lot of words to say so little.

Words are wind, man.

 

[TatteredHat]

I appreciate that you can't exactly copy a story from one form of media to another, but I do feel that since the TV show has passed the books in story progression some elements have felt lackluster.

OP post is enormous hyperbole, though.

 

[TenCentCoast]

Gotta love all the snark in this thread.

 

[discospider]

OP's right about Tyrion. He's a totally whitewashed writer's favorite.

 

[PK Gaming]

I appreciate that you can't exactly copy a story from one form of media to another, but I do feel that since the TV show has passed the books in story progression some elements have felt lackluster.

OP post is enormous hyperbole, though.

Is it really hyperbole? I haven't read the novels so feel free to destroy me, but several of the points OP made seemed pretty cut and dry.

 

[commish]

Is it really hyperbole? I haven't read the novels so feel free to destroy me, but several of the points OP made seemed pretty cut and dry.

Well, calling it "really bad" is pretty much hyperbole, but you don't get those clicks if you only say "I had some issues with GOT".

 

[Arkeband]

OP dissed "Kunk Kunk Smath the Beetleths", probably the most idiotic scene in the entire show, and that includes the Sand Snakes scenes. I knew at that moment that they were on the path to wholly rewriting Tyrion.

Good job OP.

 

[stupei]

The trouble with the way the show over simplifies things is it kind of robs the narrative of a lot of its themes and resonance just for the sake of making the people they like seem cooler and the people they don't like more disposable and peripheral.

Like in the books Tyrion faces a lot of genuine hardships, some of them directly linked with prejudice and bigotry because he doesn't look like everyone else, and he does not always have the institutional power on his side to say exactly what he wants to say and stand up for himself. On the show, he quips his way through every obstacle, because people who encounter prejudice and can't laugh directly in its face every time aren't as likable apparently.

In the books, Brienne is a woman who has never felt especially comfortable in expressions of femininity but speaks highly of womanhood and develops strong bonds with many vulnerable people. On the show she tells Jaime to stop acting like such a girl, because women are weak and girls are cowards, I guess, and a butch woman must innately despise expressions of emotion and view them as disgustingly feminine.

In the books, her journey explores the repercussions of violence and how her concepts of right and wrong have been overly naive. That her ideas about honor do not actually help the weak and vulnerable people she thought she was striving to protect. She spends much of her journey not engaged in combat, never slaughtering needlessly, and when she finally does kill a man for being an unrepentant rapist, she is sobbing as she does so, horrified by how ugly all of this truly is.

On the show, she's a huge idiot who stumbles past the two people she's supposed to be looking for and lets them slip past her over and over, which I guess people are supposed to find more interesting than her journey of self-discovery that fans hated so much.

But then, I think AFFC is great.

 

[Back-In-Black]

What's the point of a discussion forum if people are just going to ignore OP and post snide two word posts and gifs? Can people actually discuss OP or the video posted earlier?

 

[Lasthope106]

I read half of your post, and got the point where I'm like "did OP and I watch the same show?" so I stopped.

You are pretty wrong about the characterization. On Cersei alone you missed the mark by quite a bit. She is a conniving manipulative bitch.

 

[Real Hero]

The trouble with the way the show over simplifies things is it kind of robs the narrative of a lot of its themes and resonance just for the sake of making the people they like seem cooler and the people they don't like more disposable and peripheral.

Like in the books Tyrion faces a lot of genuine hardships, some of them directly linked with prejudice and bigotry because he doesn't look like everyone else, and he does not always have the institutional power on his side to say exactly what he wants to say and stand up for himself. On the show, he quips his way through every obstacle, because people who encounter prejudice and can't laugh directly in its face every time aren't as likable apparently.

In the books, Brienne is a woman who has never felt especially comfortable in expressions of femininity but speaks highly of womanhood and develops strong bonds with many vulnerable people. On the show she tells Jaime to stop acting like such a girl, because women are weak and girls are cowards, I guess, and a butch woman must innately despise expressions of emotion and view them as disgustingly feminine.

In the books, her journey explores the repercussions of violence and how her concepts of right and wrong have been overly naive. That her ideas about honor do not actually help the weak and vulnerable people she thought she was striving to protect. She spends much of her journey not engaged in combat, never slaughtering needlessly, and when she finally does kill a man for being an unrepentant rapist, she is sobbing as she does so, horrified by how ugly all of this truly is.

On the show, she's a huge idiot who stumbles past the two people she's supposed to be looking for and lets them slip past her over and over, which I guess people are supposed to find more interesting than her journey of self-discovery that fans hated so much.

But then, I think AFFC is great.

hell yeah

 

[Finalow]

I think I'm gonna blame the OP for all of the ''ahah-no.gif'' replies in the first page from people who didn't even read anything he wrote, you could have used a slightly less awful thread title.

I can't say the show is a massive pile of garbage, it can be entertaining, it can deliver with some great direction and/or acting. however you can't pretend GoT has no major issues or that the writing isn't a complete mess most of the times, because it simply isn't true. you don't need to read the books (oh, I didn't!) to realize that.

Your feeling is wrong.

I don't follow hype. I don't put up my opinion based on how other people judge it.

Game of Thrones won multiple awards. It is rated to be one of the best series ever released. You don't win stuff like that because it is 'bad'

There are different tastes but hating on Game of Thrones is just like hating on the Lord of The Rings movie franchise because it is different from the books.

here's another ''it won Emmy Awards! The show must be good!'' exquisite post.
one of the best series ever released! Ah, if only.

 

[Always-honest]

Meh, it's pretty entertaining imo.

 

[jay]

The trouble with the way the show over simplifies things is it kind of robs the narrative of a lot of its themes and resonance just for the sake of making the people they like seem cooler and the people they don't like more disposable and peripheral.

Like in the books Tyrion faces a lot of genuine hardships, some of them directly linked with prejudice and bigotry because he doesn't look like everyone else, and he does not always have the institutional power on his side to say exactly what he wants to say and stand up for himself. On the show, he quips his way through every obstacle, because people who encounter prejudice and can't laugh directly in its face every time aren't as likable apparently.

In the books, Brienne is a woman who has never felt especially comfortable in expressions of femininity but speaks highly of womanhood and develops strong bonds with many vulnerable people. On the show she tells Jaime to stop acting like such a girl, because women are weak and girls are cowards, I guess, and a butch woman must innately despise expressions of emotion and view them as disgustingly feminine.

In the books, her journey explores the repercussions of violence and how her concepts of right and wrong have been overly naive. That her ideas about honor do not actually help the weak and vulnerable people she thought she was striving to protect. She spends much of her journey not engaged in combat, never slaughtering needlessly, and when she finally does kill a man for being an unrepentant rapist, she is sobbing as she does so, horrified by how ugly all of this truly is.

On the show, she's a huge idiot who stumbles past the two people she's supposed to be looking for and lets them slip past her over and over, which I guess people are supposed to find more interesting than her journey of self-discovery that fans hated so much.

But then, I think AFFC is great.

I await the counter arguments of "no" and accusations of how edgy this post is.

 

[SoapNickTavish]

I understand the show has the monumental task of summarising these gigantic novels, and for that, I give them a lot of credit. After season 1 of the show premiered, I had to read all the books, so I'll always appreciate the television series for sparking my interest in Martin's world.

I can treat and enjoy them as two separate mediums, and the show is still better than almost everything else on television. Somewhere along the way though, as the show strayed from the novels, a lot out nuance and characterization was lost.

Situations or characters motivations that were questionable or grey, are now black and white. I understand why, things need to be trimmed and the producers have their end in sight, but for me the morally grey characters and dilemmas are what made me so found of the show to begin with.

I'll still watch, but I feel like some of the magic has been lost.

And don't even get me started about Stannis' awesome plot from the books where he rallies the northern tribal clans to fight for him was basically scrapped and given to Jon, because he's the defacto good guy. Stephen Dillane was the best actor on the show, followed by the Alfie Allen and the severely underrated Liam Cunningham. Love his Davos.

I'm not bitter.

 

[Oddduck]

Strongly disagree.

I binge watched Seasons 1 through 6 a few months ago, and it was the most fun television that I've ever watched since Breaking Bad.

 

[Jigorath]

How many times did Brienne just randomly stumble upon one of the Stark kids in the middle of nowhere. I kind of lost count.

 

[Hyperactivity]

You could have saved us a lot of time, OP, if you had just written "PEOPLE ARE MEAN IN THESE BOOKS IN WAYS I DISLIKE".

Even the teleporting bits, where you could have had a good point, falls flat since your examples are actually poor.

And despite all this you've obviously watched several seasons of it.

Reminds me of the folks who put 400 hours into Fallout and then declare that It Sucks.

It's supposed to be Tits & Dragons. It's trying to be Tits & Dragons. The redeeming quality is that it manages to push a cast of dozens forward, somehow, while remaining a nice pulpy ride, and NOT relying on hamfisted magic spells most of the time. It's a dumb yarn, for sure, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Point is, it has entertained countless million people, so I'd say it accomplished what it set out to do.

You are ignoring some truly great moments that would have been totally unheard-of in television, even 10 years prior. The crazy battles, 5-6 locations, a preposterously large web drawn together (again for TV standards) and so on. The Red Wedding is probably the most amazing – or at least, infamous – scene on TV in the last 5 years.

If it's gonna be that, let it be that, just don't pretend it's something more

Good analysis although I have never found Dany, or at least the way GRRM portrays her, to be a compelling character. Her character progression has been slow as molasses and full of bad decisions. Young Griff in ADWD gets more done than Dany has in five books to lay claim to the throne.

Dany is a terrible character... as a main protagonist. I have more faith in GRRM, compared to the show, to keep with this idea that she's utterly ineffective at ruling and has this call towards madness and being a tyrant that will help him avoid a stupid "Dany saves the world" ending.

Actually it's been rumored that the book hints the Hound is still alive (it was a very subtle hint with one vague comment from a character). We don't know yet cause the books haven't been finished and the last GoT season was all past the finished books. Same thing with Jon Snow being alive (he left it in a way that almost said that he wAnted you to think he was dead).

This is a good example of why comparing something to the books doesn't somehow make you a book purist.

Spoiler

Jon is pretty heavily, along with the rest of the Starks, hinted at being a watch, and it would make sense that that's how he survives. But Melisandre reviving him is fine too. My issue is with what he does afterwards, where he doesn't somehow change by remembering his duty to the nights watch or being punished/reprimanded in any significant way for his action, asides from his being dead for a bit

 

[radios shipping overview]

Let us remember our ignobly departed comrades who are not dead in the books.

Phew! That list got longer than I expected!

 

[Raven117]

i don't like Game of Thrones very much.

But I'm not going to nitpick like that.

 

[Real Hero]

pycelle is dead in the books too isn't he?

 

[Bolivar687]

I agree with the OP.

 

[radios shipping overview]

pycelle is dead in the books too isn't he?

You're right. It's been a while.

 

[Symphonia]

The way OP reads make it sounds like he'd be quite content watching 12-year old Sansa being raped. Each to their own, I guess. But you are aware that the TV show aged certain characters so it wouldn't seem so controversial? The main one being Dany, of course, but they also aged Arya and removed a scene where a few guards are discussing 'fucking her little cunny' - so, again, if you prefer to watch that, it's your choice. But, personally, I don't see an issue with the way they handled the adapation to TV.

 

[wachie]

Oh, and no, I'm not a book purist.

Oh but you are, you are just in denial. I don't rate GoT as the top tier of TV but it's got good production values and is decently entertaining. I don't give a fuck what the books are about.

 

[stupei]

i don't like Game of Thrones very much.

But I'm not going to nitpick like that.

Luckily this is a forum for discussing many topics and if you think this thread isn't worth discussing you don't have to post in it. And shouldn't.

This goes for all the "lol no" responses moving forward btw. Feel free to disagree but drive by shit posting is unneeded.

 

[Micael]

One doesn't need to bring the books to say how inconsistent and illogical a lot of the show is, one doesn't even need to go with the extreme examples of the terminator and sir twenty good-men to think the show is bad, characters are all around wildly inconsistent, and just about every episode now has something stupid that makes no sense, I mean who can forget amazing things like such elite units as unsullied (not to mention one of the greatest knights in westeros) being defeated by people wielding daggers.

For people genuinely interested in seeing how much the show fucks up, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA/videos that guy series "Preston's game of thrones season X watch episode Y" is pretty good, also entertaining.

 

[sibarraz]

You made me think about the series and his inconsistencies with great points, but then you mentioned that the show was misogynist AND racist and I stopped taking this seriously

Like, I don't get why is racist that the dohtrakis are loyal to danarys when she killed the other khals. I could see this if westeroos is showed as a place of virtue, but in contrast, westeroos sucks, it's politics are way more stupid than the ones that the dohtrakis have.

And I don't know how the show is sexist either, besides sansa and sam's girlfriend, no one else is a damsel in distress, arya is a little girl that has grown alone and can fight, cersei is a manipulative woman who has secured the throne for her, danarys is the queen of a big empire, having a big following on her learning that you can dominate a male by playing into his sexual insecurities, at least I always have felt that in this series the women's have more power than the men who for the most part are idiots who are easily tricked.

 

[stupei]

You made me think about the series and his inconsistencies until you mentioned that the show was misogynist AND racist.

Like, I don't get why is racist that the dohtrakis are loyal to danarys when she killed the other khals. I could see this if westeroos is showed as a place of virtue, but in contrast, westeroos sucks, it's politics are way more stupid than the ones that the dohtrakis have.

And I don't know how the show is sexist either, besides sansa and sam's girlfriend, no one else is a damsel in distress, arya is a little girl that has grown alone and can fight, cersei is a manipulative woman who has secured the throne for her, danarys is the queen of a big empire, having a big following on her learning that you can dominate a male by playing into his sexual insecurities, at least I always have felt that in this series the women's have more power than the men who for the most part are idiots who are easily tricked.

They've written their show in such a way that the common fan response to Cersei's walk of shame was not, in fact, "oh god, this is horrifying, this isn't what I wanted at all," but rather a lot of "yeah, bitch got what she deserves."

That's a culture fostered by the show and its writing, unfortunately.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

I think I'm gonna blame the OP for all of the ''ahah-no.gif'' replies in the first page from people who didn't even read anything he wrote, you could have used a slightly less awful thread title.

I can't say the show is a massive pile of garbage, it can be entertaining, it can deliver with some great direction and/or acting. however you can't pretend GoT has no major issues or that the writing isn't a complete mess most of the times, because it simply isn't true. you don't need to read the books (oh, I didn't!) to realize that.


here's another ''it won Emmy Awards! The show must be good!'' exquisite post.
one of the best series ever released! Ah, if only.

Now now, I read the title AND skimmed the OP only to see the words "ASOIAF" and "books" everywhere to know this thread wasn't worth my time. I will give it a go anyway.

GoT is far from a perfect show, but in many ways the books held it back just as much as they made it great.
It just isn't possible for them to include every little thing from the books, and they have to cut so many characters out that it almost would make more sense to completely invent new storylines - that were at least partially based on the books, as opposed to barebones representations of book plots and characters (Euron, Dorne).

This would be easier for the writers if they weren't already out of book material, which is not what I think D&D expected to happen already (or George for that matter). So yeah, I would argue any quality downturns for the show could be just as much of George's problem. D&D need to race to the end because they simply don't have book material to pad out the later seasons.

The Tyrion characterization one is about as petty of a book purist argument as they come, and a prime example of why book purists just don't understand the sacrifices and changes that need to made in order to maintain a megahit TV show. Peter won an Emmy, is one of the most popular characters on TV, is insanely likeable and fun to watch. The show is confined to 10 50-60 minute episodes a year (even less next season) and wouldn't be able to do a multi-faceted Tyrion justice, and would certainly lose all charm and popularity and marketablility that Tyrion has brought for the show.

If you wanna knock GoT, or offer suggestions, it would be nice to see a compelling argument without even mentioning the books. I've really yet to see one, and again I am not here to telll you the show is perfect. There is valid criticism in things like Dorne in season 5 (acting, writing, the camerawork), and Arya's Braavos plot last season (the whole chase episode). But arguments that compare the show to the books will always be weak to me.

 

[pashmilla]

Now now, I read the title AND skimmed the OP only to see the words "ASOIAF" and "books" everywhere to know this thread wasn't worth my time. I will give it a go anyway.


If you wanna knock GoT, or offer suggestions, it would be nice to see a compelling argument without even mentioning the books. I've really yet to see one, and again I am not here to telll you the show is perfect. There is valid criticism in things like Dorne in season 5 (acting, writing, the camerawork), and Arya's Braavos plot last season (the whole chase episode). But arguments that compare the show to the books will always be weak to me.

Okay, here's one I already mentioned... the show is problematic as shit. Sexism, racism and homophobia out the wazoo, with a sprinkling of ableism on top for flavour. That has nothing to do with the books.

 

[this_guy]

It's better because the show comes out in a timely manner to advance the plot. Being different from the book doesn't make the book better.