I didn't. I said that it has dragons and magic, so why do ravens have to fly the same speed as our earth ravens
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT2| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
- Thread starter Cornballer
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I didn't. I said that it has dragons and magic, so why do ravens have to fly the same speed as our earth ravens
RustyNails
Member
Yeah I cant defend this. It just seems beyond stupid to not utilize Bran in the fight against Night King. Perfectly logical use of Bran would have avoided the stupid Gendry>Raven>Dany and also help push the overall narrative of 3ER vs NK forward.
toddhunter
Member
Over the whole series the show has probably 6-7 hours of ravens flying out ominously from various castles.
They all fly at what could be determined to be a standard raven speed.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Jon hasnt been back to Winterfell since Bran arrived. Though Jon knows he is now there i doubt he could even guess that Bran has become Professor X complete with wheelchair.
edit:
There should be a fan edit where in between each scene is:
Imperfected
Member
Or, for that matter, why not have Dany fly north to the Wall and await them there? Apparently it's not a particularly taxing trip for her, so she could have at least been a sis and given Ser Friend Zone a ride.
Then your Time to Dany just becomes the time it takes to get a rider to the Wall plus a few minutes, and you basically have the Frozen Lake scene be an overnight affair, which seems to be the intention based on the way it was shot.
moltonasty
Member
I actually enjoyed the episode, but this breakdown makes it less enjoyable for me tbqh by raising more questions. You're telling me the Night King just watched them for 4 days and did nothing? The crew doesn't eat for 4 days and still has energy to fight?
I guess we can assume Jon and the rest are basically super heroes then, since they can apparently survive in the freezing cold with no food for four days and still be in shape to fight.
SurrenderDorothy
Banned
This isn't about plot armor or expected vs unexpected. It's about good writing and building tension in a realistic way rather than using convoluted nonsense scenarios that maybe could technically happen all right in a row. I fell in love with this show because of the writing and because of the realism inherent in the first 3-4 seasons. They didn't use hollywood cliches to create tension and save people.
I could definitely be pleased if this stuff was better written. That's my issue is that the spectacle is nice but the writing around it just fucking ruins everything in every episode so far this season. If they fleshed things out or hell, just changed a few things here and there it wouldn't be so bad. Maybe I'd still be complaining about some things (because this is a discussion forum and discussion is what we do), but not to the extent of "Holy shit I want to stop watching what was once my favorite show in existence. What I thought was the absolute pinnacle of fantasy writing is now pulpy unbelievable nonsense."
I've posted some easy fixes to my complaints before:
Bronn on the scorpion was also an easy fix. Euron teleporting was also a pretty easy fix. But it just doesn't seem like the writers care about this shit anymore.
Sansa really is the only smart Stark.
Take it to the book thread.
Also that prophecy is bunk as Cersei has had four kids.
Imperfected
Member
At the very least they could have given us a scene of Tormund and Jon fucking to stay warm. For, uh, verisimilitude.
shinra-bansho
Member
Meanwhile, at Casterly Rock.
TimeEffect
Member
Well if thats how you want to get around it, that's fine. I just think the entire set up was dumb and there were better ways to write it. Sometimes the easier explanation is just that the writing is glaringly at fault.
A good alternative; Dany goes to the Wall, wants to go North of the Wall but basically gets the speech about doing nothing Tyrian gave her anyway.
And then the drama can be based around Gendry getting back to the Wall.
That Benjen scene must be the most anti-climactic ending to any storyline in the show. I really expected him to have some story/lore significance since he is half-undead or something. But no, they just really needed to close that arc and they couldn't have done it in a duller way. What was the point of him coming back in the way he did anyway?
I was enjoying the episode for the most part though. The dialogue in the beginning of the episode between the characters in the expedition was very enjoyable. I was also positively surprised that they went with a drawn-out, silent stand-off instead of another heavy action scene. That does set this episode apart in a good way.
After the action does start though... Some things just happen too quickly, like the dragon death. It lacks the weight it could have had with better build-up and aftermath. Some other things are just silly, like two last-minute saves in a row or all the convenient expendable extra men (especially since earlier GoT seasons made an effort to avoid such writing).
So yeah, I have probably not said anything that has not been said before, but that sums up my thoughts. The episode could have been outstanding since the concept is great, but the writing is noticeably messier that the high standard we are used to.
I was enjoying the episode for the most part though. The dialogue in the beginning of the episode between the characters in the expedition was very enjoyable. I was also positively surprised that they went with a drawn-out, silent stand-off instead of another heavy action scene. That does set this episode apart in a good way.
After the action does start though... Some things just happen too quickly, like the dragon death. It lacks the weight it could have had with better build-up and aftermath. Some other things are just silly, like two last-minute saves in a row or all the convenient expendable extra men (especially since earlier GoT seasons made an effort to avoid such writing).
So yeah, I have probably not said anything that has not been said before, but that sums up my thoughts. The episode could have been outstanding since the concept is great, but the writing is noticeably messier that the high standard we are used to.
toddhunter
Member
In hindsight, if they knew the army was heading there then they really should have sent their fleet to the completely undefended dragonstone.
Just a suggestion.
JadedWriter
Member
Are we talking Charles or the douchebag evil version of him? I guess Charles since Bran isn't mind raping random people.
This argument will never not be the most frustrating one. Just because a show is set in a fantasy world where suspension of disbelief is required does not mean the established rules/geography/dramatic storytelling doesn't matter. You establish your world, in this case, a world with dragons, women that can't be burned, giants etc; we as the audience buy into the premise, and from then on, it's up to the show to uphold the established rules of the show.
Yeah, in the world of Westeros, where it takes four weeks to ride from Winterfell to King's Landing; where the logistics of distance were often emphasized to give weight and scope to the world; where the environment is harsh and unforgiving, most especially north of the wall, such that staying out in freezing temperatures without a bonfire/shelter/food for 36+ hours would almost definitely result in death; I'd say this is some pretty egregious shit. It was contrived and artificial.
RustyNails
Member
Why does Jon need to know where Bran is? Bran knows everything. He could have called for Dany's help even before they set out beyond the wall. Bran could have indirectly fought NK.Jon hasnt been back to Winterfell since Bran arrived. Though Jon knows he is now there i doubt he could even guess that Bran has become Professor X complete with wheelchair.
edit:
There should be a fan edit where in between each scene is:
TimeEffect
Member
Meanwhile, at Casterly Rock.
Shit. Wait, didn't Dany confirm the Unsullied took Casterly Rock? Presumably, in the current timeline, the battle has already taken place between Euron/Unsullied, right?
Or did they just destroy the ships and peace out?
Imperfected
Member
He's just watching other people do it in his mind.
Clairvoyeurism is a mind gateway drug.
Gunslinger
Member
According to next week's episode trailerMeanwhile, at Casterly Rock.
the unsullied are back with Dany.
TimeEffect
Member
Yeah, they didn't do a good job of this at all. It felt like mere hours. Nobody is tired, nobody has taken a shit, nobody seems hungry or sleepy. They didn't even look like they brought food.
We can at least imagine they huddled around the sword for a fire.
And then, in all that time, the undead finally attack to kill the 7, and that's when Dany comes in for the save.
It's very frustrating.
Imperfected
Member
Presumably the latter.
I think the Ironborn are perfectly well aware that the Unsullied would walk all over them in a proper infantry battle. Unless the Unsullied decide to fight them in rowboats there's not much they can do besides vandalism and maybe some drunken carousing.
UnObtainium17
Member
Jerry
Member
OK. I never blamed any particular party before, but if thats true then the show runners are massively at fault.
There's more than enough source material to work with for a start. And even if there wasn't, the direction and writing (and acting) this season have been far below par.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Preview talk:
Guess they are just going to ignore the Unsullied/Casterly Rock situation?
Albino_Yeti
Member
From watching the preview for the finale, one major complaint people have seems addressed:
EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong lol.
Jon and company don't meet Cersei in Kings Landing, they go to a neutral site.
EDIT: Actually, I'm wrong lol.
Imperfected
Member
It was kind of a goof. He was really confident that has meteor hammer Shaolin style kung fu would be able to defeat the Wights, but the camera started panning backward right when he needed some alternating close-ups to maintain his combo.
There's nothing that kills a Shaolin monk quite like a slow pan out.
TimeEffect
Member
Maybe they wanted to move on to the Confederate show? I mean, they are working off someone else's work here, and now that the source material has evaporated, they are just being exposed as being sucky and typical.
They just handwaved it, lol. What was honestly even the point of that shot, really.
No point in trying to reason with that crowd. I supposed what they wanted is a clock on Jon's gang's head while the raven was flying to tell them how long it was they were sitted on the ice before dany got there/walkers started to attack.
shinra-bansho
Member
Did people miss before that D&D are too busy gearing up to make a show where blacks are still slaves. Because that's going to go down well.
cartographer
Member
I probably wasn't paying attention closely enough but my assumption is that's where the battle is.
rocketskates
Member
Well you're wrong about that. It was in the show.
Correct. People are forgetting this.
Shhh no logic allowed here.
People want to complain and assume any theories that turn out correct are people who have read spoilers previously, wtf. These theories have been around way longer than any leaks.
SealedSeven
Neo Member
Albino_Yeti
Member
Oh... forget I said anything lol.
Link?
Kenzodielocke
Banned
Preview talk must be spoiler tagged.
My thoughts on the episode/season:
You know I really loved the episode. It had all the usual ep 9 spectacle, even if there were no shocking kills (which btw at this point wouldn't make any sense at all), great set up, and was tense as hell during the actual battle. Didn't top BoB or Hardhome but it was up there.
That said and as many have pointed out we could have reached the same end conclusion but with better motivations.
1. First of all the Winterfell stuff is utter garbage and better be more than just the straightforward Sansa and Arya fighting each other cause they need something to do.
2. Gendry running back to send a raven which then forces Danny to come makes no logistical sense but could have easily been done with either Bran seeing in a vision what is happening, maybe even before Jon and Company realize the mess they are in and he sends a raven/message to Danny.
OR Danny travels north with them, to begin with. There problem(s) solved! I mean this is basic stuff. What sense does it make that she is sitting in an empty castle with Tyrion only to be shown to fly off 5 minutes later
3. Why is the dragon pulled? What a monumental waste of an awesome visual with the Night King raising the dead dragon using his powers (like Hardhome) and we see the dragon break through the ice, fly up, and a close-up of his now blue eyes.
4. The problems in this episode, much like last week, could have all been written out or handled better. Last week's "plan" scene wasn't needed. All we needed was Jon simply saying "my brother Bran is alive and he sent this message - I am leaving with or without your support and going to East Watch". The plan to capture a WW never needed to be said, could have just been the end result of this battle.
It would have come across much better had Jon just left with Davos, Gendry, and Jorah - because the army is at East Watch and he has no choice but to go and fight. Capturing a WW could have been something Danny maybe only mentions to Jorah "if you can bring one back". But again this is going to the whole plan that doesn't make sense from any angle.
5. Instead of Arya and Sansa, I would have much more appreciated that time devoted to Theon and his crew have a plan to get Yara back. Maybe a rescue scene?
Sucks cause up until these last 2 episodes I didn't really have a problem with how the season was going. I understood and accepted the accelerated travel but these 2 episodes made the oddest choices story wise which is confusing as hell to me.
I see so many ppl saying its cause they don't have the source material. That's BS. Season 6 was superb and that wasn't based on any book. GRRM is still consulting with the story and providing outlines on how and where to go. They still have the same talent writing, directing, and running the show. The choices being made to advance the plot make no sense at times.
You know I really loved the episode. It had all the usual ep 9 spectacle, even if there were no shocking kills (which btw at this point wouldn't make any sense at all), great set up, and was tense as hell during the actual battle. Didn't top BoB or Hardhome but it was up there.
That said and as many have pointed out we could have reached the same end conclusion but with better motivations.
1. First of all the Winterfell stuff is utter garbage and better be more than just the straightforward Sansa and Arya fighting each other cause they need something to do.
2. Gendry running back to send a raven which then forces Danny to come makes no logistical sense but could have easily been done with either Bran seeing in a vision what is happening, maybe even before Jon and Company realize the mess they are in and he sends a raven/message to Danny.
OR Danny travels north with them, to begin with. There problem(s) solved! I mean this is basic stuff. What sense does it make that she is sitting in an empty castle with Tyrion only to be shown to fly off 5 minutes later
3. Why is the dragon pulled? What a monumental waste of an awesome visual with the Night King raising the dead dragon using his powers (like Hardhome) and we see the dragon break through the ice, fly up, and a close-up of his now blue eyes.
4. The problems in this episode, much like last week, could have all been written out or handled better. Last week's "plan" scene wasn't needed. All we needed was Jon simply saying "my brother Bran is alive and he sent this message - I am leaving with or without your support and going to East Watch". The plan to capture a WW never needed to be said, could have just been the end result of this battle.
It would have come across much better had Jon just left with Davos, Gendry, and Jorah - because the army is at East Watch and he has no choice but to go and fight. Capturing a WW could have been something Danny maybe only mentions to Jorah "if you can bring one back". But again this is going to the whole plan that doesn't make sense from any angle.
5. Instead of Arya and Sansa, I would have much more appreciated that time devoted to Theon and his crew have a plan to get Yara back. Maybe a rescue scene?
Sucks cause up until these last 2 episodes I didn't really have a problem with how the season was going. I understood and accepted the accelerated travel but these 2 episodes made the oddest choices story wise which is confusing as hell to me.
I see so many ppl saying its cause they don't have the source material. That's BS. Season 6 was superb and that wasn't based on any book. GRRM is still consulting with the story and providing outlines on how and where to go. They still have the same talent writing, directing, and running the show. The choices being made to advance the plot make no sense at times.
SurrenderDorothy
Banned
No, I'm not wrong. Sibling part of the prophecy wasn't in the show.
Yep.
Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Slaves can just teleport to Canada. Series over.
Go watch the prophecy scene again, man.
This episode was bad. Like really really bad.
My issues:
1) John's plan is fucking stupid and I am amazed that writers didnt think of some better reason to have a setpiece battle than this ridiculous dumb shit.
"oh I have a great idea, lets take a bunch of guys (10 are enough) and walk into the most perilous territory and move against an army that supposedly requires the unity of the entire westeros to take him down (but hey we 10 people are more than enough) and go into a covert operation of somehow going unnoticed take a prisoner alive and bring him back!!!"
Un-fucking -believable...
2) Yes this season doesnt handle fast traveling very well, but so far it was tolerable at least. In this episode? They went batshit crazy with it. Gendry is apparently Flash, sir Davos has access to email, and Danny is just Danny.
(love that she decided to fly there in what feels like no time, and then decide to take the boat ride home just to touch hands with John.... i mean... bleh...)
3) The whole Arya/Sansa scene is just bad and Littlefinger is approaching Frank Underwood levels of unconvincing bullshit. Specifically Arya seems that she hasnt learn how to detect lies afterall (or I hope that future episodes will show that she is somehow acting like she doesnt).
4) Someone needs to explain to me why the undead were looking at John and Co. for 2 days. Knight king has range weapon and we have seen undead using bows in previous episodes. So they just stood there 3 days watching each other... why?
Was it because the Knight king wanted a dragon upgrade? Ok, then why did the undead start marching when they realized that the ground can hold them without falling apart?
5) This episode felt like it was made from the most cliched Hollywood Michael Bay movie ever. Nobody dies. Everyone saved at the last minute... especially
6) Benzy appearing out of fucking nowhere again to save the last second John Snow...
Is this the future of Game of Thrones from now on? Everyone loves everyone so nobody dies until we cover very Hollywood cliche left out there?
Horrible episode, literally dont know what the writers were thinking. The entire premise of it is utterly stupid.
My issues:
1) John's plan is fucking stupid and I am amazed that writers didnt think of some better reason to have a setpiece battle than this ridiculous dumb shit.
"oh I have a great idea, lets take a bunch of guys (10 are enough) and walk into the most perilous territory and move against an army that supposedly requires the unity of the entire westeros to take him down (but hey we 10 people are more than enough) and go into a covert operation of somehow going unnoticed take a prisoner alive and bring him back!!!"
Un-fucking -believable...
2) Yes this season doesnt handle fast traveling very well, but so far it was tolerable at least. In this episode? They went batshit crazy with it. Gendry is apparently Flash, sir Davos has access to email, and Danny is just Danny.
(love that she decided to fly there in what feels like no time, and then decide to take the boat ride home just to touch hands with John.... i mean... bleh...)
3) The whole Arya/Sansa scene is just bad and Littlefinger is approaching Frank Underwood levels of unconvincing bullshit. Specifically Arya seems that she hasnt learn how to detect lies afterall (or I hope that future episodes will show that she is somehow acting like she doesnt).
4) Someone needs to explain to me why the undead were looking at John and Co. for 2 days. Knight king has range weapon and we have seen undead using bows in previous episodes. So they just stood there 3 days watching each other... why?
Was it because the Knight king wanted a dragon upgrade? Ok, then why did the undead start marching when they realized that the ground can hold them without falling apart?
5) This episode felt like it was made from the most cliched Hollywood Michael Bay movie ever. Nobody dies. Everyone saved at the last minute... especially
6) Benzy appearing out of fucking nowhere again to save the last second John Snow...
Is this the future of Game of Thrones from now on? Everyone loves everyone so nobody dies until we cover very Hollywood cliche left out there?
Horrible episode, literally dont know what the writers were thinking. The entire premise of it is utterly stupid.
Well that also assumes that Gendry/Raven/Dany all have GPS- like precision, knowing exactly where to go (Dany especially).
Meaning we can debate about this shit for weeks and not get anywhere. In the end it doesn't matter. Try not to think too hard about the show, just sit back and enjoy it. If they do time jumps and things don't add up or make sense, whatever. I won't let it detract me from enjoying the show.
Plot armor is getting to me a little bit though. I don't have the feeling that any person can die at any second now. It is very apparent that the show has been taken over by television producers and not trying to stick with the unwritten books. Will be interesting to read when, and if, GRRM ever completes them.