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[Conkerkid11]

The only thing that mattered in that scene was the dagger part. Arya could have killed Sansa when she was approaching her with the dagger. Sansa could have killed Arya when she was handed the dagger and Arya turned her back on her. Neither of them killed each other. It's all good.

 

[Sheroking]

But if she is playing a game against LF, why in private conversation with Sansa is she torturing Sansa?

No, I think at this point we can sadly assume the writers are forcing this drama and there is nothing more to it other than to show how "clever" LF is. Somehow Bran or Jon will intervene to fix it but for now, I think this pointless, manufactured, and the completely boring nonsensical story will continue as is.

"Forced", "nonsensical". Really, though?

Arya was super close with Jon and Eddard and hated Sansa. Arya was trained to understand deception, Sansa is deceiving as she is passively entertaining the notion of grabbing power from Jon.

Their entire character arcs thus far have been about Sansa learning from Cersei/LF to play the game and Arya learning to murder anyone who played the game and betrayed her family.

This is a completely logical place for this storyline to go.

 

[FiggyCal]

As much as I hate the Arya and Sansa stuff right now, she says before all of that that they're gonna play the game of faces. She tells a bunch of lies to Sansa. That's all there really is to it.

This can excuse her having been a servant to Tywin, or Sansa being distraught during Ned's execution. It's dumb, but in the end I doubt it will have really mattered, considering she placed her trust in Sansa when she handed her the dagger and turned her back on her.

That's an interesting take.

 

[redfox088]

Yeah, there's nothing we can do about that though unfortunately.

It's been happening since the beginning though. Show only viewers should not have figured out R+J=L as early as they did. But they did.

Robb + Jon= little finger? I fucking new it!

 

[MushroomSamba]

But if she is playing a game against LF, why in private conversation with Sansa is she torturing Sansa?

No, I think at this point we can sadly assume the writers are forcing this drama and there is nothing more to it other than to show how "clever" LF is. Somehow Bran or Jon will intervene to fix it but for now, I think this pointless, manufactured, and the completely boring nonsensical story will continue as is.

Look, I don't know. I'm just trying to pick the one that isn't as stupid of an outcome. The whole thing isn't shaping out to be very well thought out, and at this point, I just hope the writers limit the damage.

 

[TimeEffect]

The Arya/Sansa stuff is completely earned IMO, as I posted about in this thread. Nothing out of character about it.

Somebody actually did the math on the episode, and it actually works RE: Travel. This was the first time I was bothered by "teleporting", as until know we could just assume a certain amount of time has passed off screen in that particular storyline. This is the one bit that a timeline.



I also think this undersells the Dragon's flight speed.

Thats still an absurd time

 

[ComputerBlue]

Robb + Jon= little finger? I fucking new it!

LOL...oops!

 

[Sheroking]

Thats still an absurd time

It's... pushing it to the breaking point, but I honestly didn't think it could work at all, which I why I was interested about that.

We know they spent at least two mornings and almost 2 nights on that island.

 

[-griffy-]

We've been misreading that R+L=J theory the whole time.

Rhaegar + Longclaw = Jon

It all makes sense.

 

[TimeEffect]

Not only did Sansa protest while the execution took place, her own mother and brother along with other Northern lords all recognized she was forced to write the letter.

Arya, the master assassin who has been trained to spot lies and to excel in deception can't tell her sister was forced to write that letter. That she had no choice between writing the letter and dying herself.

What does Arya want anyway at this point? Sansa to do what? Die? Leave? Or what did she want her to do at that point? She thought if she listened to the Lannisters, her dad would be spared. He wasn't. They were going to kill her too. Did she want her to sacrifice herself?

Her anger doesn't make any sense. I was so pumped to see her go to Winterfell instead of KL but now I wish she went to KL instead. Maybe she would have stumbled into Theon and his Yara rescue mission. Would have been million times more interesting.

It seems clear that she is playing LF

She has to tell Sansa lies because she is playing her too, for her sake, because sansa still dumb

 

[FiggyCal]

It would've been better if the director effectively presented the passage of time in such a way that viewers don't need reddit flow charts to make sense of it.

 

[Timbuktu]

Arya has been obsessing over the murder of her father and other family members for years to the point of committing mass murder. Now the sister who she never got along with and betrayed her multiple times is in a position of power and is found to have betrayed the memory of their father for the benefit of his murderers. Arya's anger is perfectly justified.

They already had a conversation this season when Arya thought Sansa killed Joffrey and Sansa says she wish she had. I admit that this whole Sansa/ Arya thing might be a red herring, but it could be executed much better.

 

[Conkerkid11]

Somebody actually did the math on the episode, and it actually works RE: Travel. This was the first time I was bothered by "teleporting", as until know we could just assume a certain amount of time has passed off screen in that particular storyline. This is the one bit that a timeline.

That's great and all, but the episode makes it look like one day at most passes in between the time Gendry leaves and Dany shows up with her dragons.

Based on how dumb they were in terms of using the fire magic they had (Jorah's dumb "we're gonna freeze to death" line), they should have actually froze to death.

The show should have showed them acknowledging that they have fire magic to keep warm. Instead, we see Gendry leave during the daytime, then we see nighttime, then the next morning Thoros is dead, they light his body on fire, everybody walks away from the fire for some reason, then later that day Dany shows up.

Or they could have done the smart thing and had Bran, Melisandre, or one of the dragons contact Dany.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

"Forced", "nonsensical". Really, though?

Arya was super close with Jon and Eddard and hated Sansa. Arya was trained to understand deception, Sansa is deceiving as she is passively entertaining the notion of grabbing power from Jon.

Their entire character arcs thus far have been about Sansa learning from Cersei/LF to play the game and Arya learning to murder anyone who played the game and betrayed her family.

This is a completely logical place for this storyline to go.

Of course it's forced and non-sensical because it's following romcom logic to create this conflict. The logic being "let's not talk about anything in specifics and tell each other details which could clear up this misunderstanding." Sansa was protesting Ned's beheading on the platform, but was being held back. Robb and Maester Luwin and anyone with half a brain knew that Sansa wrote that letter under duress. Bran could roll in there and diffuse the tension by saying "Hey LF is a sneaky mother fucker setting you both up", but the show goes out of its way to not show conversations happen that should be happening for the sake of drama.

If it all ends up being a ploy on top of LF's ploy, then I'll eat crow. But even then it would still be a cheap ploy that is more concerned on getting one over the audience rather than being a logical and convincing ploy.

 

[LegendofDragoonLives]

"Forced", "nonsensical". Really, though?

Arya was super close with Jon and Eddard and hated Sansa. Arya was trained to understand deception, Sansa is deceiving as she is passively entertaining the notion of grabbing power from Jon.

Their entire character arcs thus far have been about Sansa learning from Cersei/LF to play the game and Arya learning to murder anyone who played the game and betrayed her family.

This is a completely logical place for this storyline to go.

lol at hated. They were kids that fought a ton because they were little with hugely contrasting personalities. Hated is Cersei as a child hoping her baby brother dies soon because he's lived long enough. Sansa was also a naive douche (which isn't the case). Sansa might be entertaining the idea of getting the power of the North but not by taking out Jon. But if he dies, she takes over.

If this is the case, this would be dumb as fuck. I ain't worried because I'm hoping this is some play on LF :S

 

[Elandyll]

It seems clear that she is playing LF

She has to tell Sansa lies because she is playing her too, for her sake, because sansa still dumb

I have been interpreting it as playing LF (assuming he has ears everywhere) but also testing just how far in with LF Sansa is by pushing her.

I hope I'm right.

 

[TimeEffect]

"Forced", "nonsensical". Really, though?

Arya was super close with Jon and Eddard and hated Sansa. Arya was trained to understand deception, Sansa is deceiving as she is passively entertaining the notion of grabbing power from Jon.

Their entire character arcs thus far have been about Sansa learning from Cersei/LF to play the game and Arya learning to murder anyone who played the game and betrayed her family.

This is a completely logical place for this storyline to go.

They do a bad job of showing sansa is mini cersei

Thats the kind of development that needs extra episodes

 

[Aurongel]

It would've been better if the director effectively presented the passage of time in such a way that viewers don't need reddit flow charts to make sense of it.

At the end of the day, this is the root cause of why this episode was problematic. Expecting the viewer to suspend their disbelief is a necessary evil, this episode however wanted to have its cake and eat it too by having time and space work differently for the heroes and villains.

 

[effzee]

Yes. She says exactly that in the episode.

That makes it even worse.

They are the last of the Stark women, 2 of only 4 (or 3) remaining Starks, have both been through terrible horrors at the hands of their enemies and instead of putting this shit behind her to help her sister rule and crush their enemies, Arya would rather grill her sister or wish she died instead of surviving.

 

[FiggyCal]

I thought the Sansa/Arya stuff was fine. It really depends, though, on whether Arya really is playing a game - either with Littlefinger or Sansa.

And the time traveling with Dany wasn't nearly as bad as in previous episodes, though I think the director could have done a better job.

 

[Cimarron]

Has anyone discussed how fast Westerosi ravens must fly? I can forgive the dragons but geesh!

 

[Addi]

As much as I hate the Arya and Sansa stuff right now, she says before all of that that they're gonna play the game of faces. She tells a bunch of lies to Sansa. That's all there really is to it.

This can excuse her having been a servant to Tywin, or Sansa being distraught during Ned's execution. It's dumb, but in the end I doubt it will have really mattered, considering she placed her trust in Sansa when she handed her the dagger and turned her back on her.

Not to mention it's Littlefinger's dagger. She could have threatened her with needle or an other knife but gives her LF's dagger. It's obviously a message.

Season trailer #2 speculation

Spoiler

Sansa's speech about the lone wolf dying and the pack surviving hasn't shown up yet. In the way the trailer is edited, it makes you think it's her talking to Jon, but now I think she is giving the speech to Littlefinger. It might be before offing him or something because the tone of the voice is a bit threatening. I don't think it's to Arya because she works for the pack and has given Sansa trust now.

 

[f0nz0]

Arya making sure she keeps Sansa honest.. that whole bit of being able to become anyone... Now sansa is gonna have to question whether she is talking to Arya in disguise or the person she thinks she's talking to.

 

[effzee]

"Forced", "nonsensical". Really, though?

Arya was super close with Jon and Eddard and hated Sansa. Arya was trained to understand deception, Sansa is deceiving as she is passively entertaining the notion of grabbing power from Jon.

Their entire character arcs thus far have been about Sansa learning from Cersei/LF to play the game and Arya learning to murder anyone who played the game and betrayed her family.

This is a completely logical place for this storyline to go.

She disliked Sansa but she didn't hate her.

Again with Bran there and her finally reuniting with her family, the focus should be them joining forces and coming up with ways to survive against the evil approaching rather than falling for LF's game and fighting each other. Esp dumb cause it happens within 5 minutes of her returning and having a touchy embrace. Two people who long believed each other was dead. Most of their family killed. They finally reunite and Arya would rather fight her own sister than calm the fuck down for a second.

She should have gone to KL.

 

[LakeEarth]

It seems clear that she is playing LF

She has to tell Sansa lies because she is playing her too, for her sake, because sansa still dumb

It has to be that. My wife had a theory that Arya was acting weird because (guessing, not a real spoiler)

Spoiler

Arya actually did go to King's Landing, and the Arya that's shown up in Winterfell is a faceless in disguise waiting for her. Which would explain why Bran was confused by her arrival. But that would mean the faceless can take living faces, which I'm pretty sure is wrong.

 

[FiggyCal]

It has to be that. My wife had a theory that Arya was acting weird because (guessing, not a real spoiler)

Spoiler

Arya actually did go to King's Landing, and the Arya that's shown up in Winterfell is a faceless in disguise waiting for her. Which would explain why Bran was confused by her arrival. But that would mean the faceless can take living faces, which I'm pretty sure is wrong.

It would still not explain why Bran was surprised Arya came to Winterfell. He still should have known what happened to her.

Edit: also I think Arya did hate Sansa, especially after what happened with Nymeria and the Butcher's son.

 

[Einchy]

She disliked Sansa but she didn't hate her.

She did. A lot.

 

[aBarreras]

That makes it even worse.

They are the last of the Stark women, 2 of only 4 (or 3) remaining Starks, have both been through terrible horrors at the hands of their enemies and instead of putting this shit behind her to help her sister rule and crush their enemies, Arya would rather grill her sister or wish she died instead of surviving.

that's arya for you.

never liked the character

 

[Crossing Eden]

Someone noticed that that wight that The Hound provoked also was one of the ones trying to drag Tormund underwater.

 

[aBarreras]

Someone noticed that that wight that The Hound provoked also was one of the ones trying to drag Tormund underwater.

we have our new night king

 

[Robdraggoo]

Where was it implied/said that the Night King can see the future? I thought the only thing he has going for him is seeing Bran when he looks into the past or is controlling something.

The only times where future sight has ever been used on the show was Danny in season 2 (more of vague vision of a possible future) and Maggie the frog, more like cryptic soothsaying.

Other than that, we don't even know if bran can see the future.

 

[Addi]

Someone noticed that that wight that The Hound provoked also was one of the ones trying to drag Tormund underwater.

Yeah, noticed that too, he had his head bashed in. The Hound dropped the hammer and went for the dragon glass instead so he could one shot wights instead.

 

[Lights and Waves]

Jamie Lannister is a father and a daddy. Wow.

 

[-griffy-]

The only times where future sight has ever been used on the show was Danny in season 2 (more of vague vision of a possible future) and Maggie the frog, more like cryptic soothsaying.

Other than that, we don't even know if bran can see the future.

Jojen was a greenseer. He saw the tree that Bran needed to get to north of the wall, and also knew his death would involve fire (and knew they needed to seek out Bran in the first place). And Bran had dreams about both the Three Eyed Raven and meeting Jojen. Also red priests looking into the flames (Mel seeing stuff, showing Stannis, and Thoros showing the Hound).

 

[Vashetti]

The only times where future sight has ever been used on the show was Danny in season 2 (more of vague vision of a possible future) and Maggie the frog, more like cryptic soothsaying.

Other than that, we don't even know if bran can see the future.

Bran saw snippets of the Sept wildfire explosion and a dragon flying over Kings Landing before they happened.

(the dragon still hasn't)

 

[Seesaw15]

The only times where future sight has ever been used on the show was Danny in season 2 (more of vague vision of a possible future) and Maggie the frog, more like cryptic soothsaying.

Other than that, we don't even know if bran can see the future.

Bran saw Cersei with the wildfire last season.

 

[nubbe]

arya thinks sansa is a lying twat

It's happening

 

[Einchy]

arya thinks sansa is a lying twat

It's happening

Sansa's lies got mycah and Lady killed and got nymeria sent away. Sansa is shiet.

 

[-griffy-]

Sansa's lies got mycah and Lady killed and got nymeria sent away. Sansa is shiet.

Sansa gets a bad rap for that whole scenario. She is a kid, told she is going to be set up with the crown prince and be the queen in the future. Then she's brought before the king and told essentially to tell the truth (lie) or lie (tell the truth), being being forced to either call the king, queen and future king liars or her family liars. So she said she doesn't remember what happened cause she didn't know what else to do.

 

[Robdraggoo]

Jojen was a greenseer. He saw the tree that Bran needed to get to north of the wall, and also knew his death would involve fire (and knew they needed to seek out Bran in the first place). And Bran had dreams about both the Three Eyed Raven and meeting Jojen. Also red priests looking into the flames (Mel seeing stuff, showing Stannis, and Thoros showing the Hound).

Bran saw snippets of the Sept wildfire explosion and a dragon flying over Kings Landing before they happened.

(the dragon still hasn't)

Bran saw Cersei with the wildfire last season.

You are totally right, I forgot about all that.

Jojen also saw his own death, and foresaw fookin Karl's death.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Sansa going to Littlefinger has been really freaking mind boggling. It doesn't make sense to me, if this is not some kind of ruse.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Sansa going to Littlefinger has been really freaking mind boggling. It doesn't make sense to me, if this is not some kind of ruse.

Especially since she was giving him the cold shoulder earlier in the season.

 

[Addi]

arya thinks sansa is a lying twat

It's happening

I rewatched this scene with Ned talking to Arya
Foreshadowing?
"Try not to stab your sister with it"

 

[J2 Cool]

I know all the discussions are about the speed of travel, but also when Gendry left and Jon says "tell Dany what happened here" nothing had yet happened.

There was a rumbling (of a horde) in the bg, but I don't know exactly what additional details Gendry was going to provide that Dany didn't already know was a possibility beyond the wall.

 

[Sephzilla]

Sansa going to Littlefinger has been really freaking mind boggling. It doesn't make sense to me, if this is not some kind of ruse.

This is why it feels like very little thought went into the Winterfell plot. Why the fuck is Sansa going to Littlefinger of all people?

 

[DragoonKain]

Anyone think there is any chance that in season 8, Jon and Dany defeat the Night King together, and then Dany goes all "mad queen" and becomes the "final boss" and Jon and co. have to take down Dany and her dragons?

I was trying to think of surprises they could pull in season 8 that would shock everyone.

 

[B-Dubs]

This is why it feels like very little thought went into the Winterfell plot. Why the fuck is Sansa going to Littlefinger of all people?

To try and find out what he's planning? If he's making overt moves it does her no good not to talk to him. That's no way to get information.

 

[Roussow]

Anyone think there is any chance that in season 8, Jon and Dany defeat the Night King together, and then Dany goes all "mad queen" and becomes the "final boss" and Jon and co. have to take down Dany and her dragons?

I was trying to think of surprises they could pull in season 8 that would shock everyone.

I'd love that, although they've been so back and forth on Aerys parallels that it's hard to draw a straight line from Daenerys here to a "Mad Queen" Daenerys a season from now.

 

[Sheroking]

This is why it feels like very little thought went into the Winterfell plot. Why the fuck is Sansa going to Littlefinger of all people?

Who else can she turn to?

This is Littlefinger's whole plan. Have people turn on her so she has to turn to him.

 

[Imperfected]

we have our new night king

The Lake Lord.

I would laugh my ass off if every time they have a Jon vs. Night King staredown, they cut away to a Sandor vs. Lake Lord staredown.