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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT2| Season 7 - [Read the OP]

Dahbomb

Member
For me, Jaime leaving KL once winter finally arrives is one of the best scenes in the entire series.
tumblr_ovdqteg2jd1tpk0vyo3_r1_400.gif

Everything about it is just amazing.
Hell yes. Glad to see someone else brought it up.

The atmosphere, cinematography and the soundtrack is damn near perfection.
 
People will always point to Jon and Dany... it's not like the book is called A Song of Fire and Ice or anything.

Don't know how matching 2 characters together is fan service. It's not like the show is abundant amount of characters who matter. Especially since the show has a habit of killing off characters left and right, which people seem to eat up.
 
Jaime's definitely the MVP of the finale.
He knew the severity of the situation and immediately acted, he had his lords ready their journey to the North to prepare for war. A war with a clear side, no greys, just black and white, the living and the dead.
He was sincere in his preparation and Cersei stomped that.

And now he rides North alone.
Cersei doesn't know how good she had it, she had the gall to say that Jaime is the stupidest Lannister yet without him she wouldn't have had her victories this season.

Luckily he'll be valued up North as a commander who's proper experienced in warfare.
Yep. I waivered on Jamie this season, but by the end I was all aboard his train.
 

Addi

Member
If I'm Cersei, I'm extremely suspicious of Daenerys (she actually says in this episode she doesn't trust her at all, so why would she trust a meeting at a venue where she had an extreme advantage if it was either a trap all along or turned violent?) and wanting to see dragons isn't enough of a reason to drag me out of the red keep where I could easily be torched in two seconds and she could just fly away, so no, this is a reason to nitpick and I think I identified why the scene was staged where it was pretty accurately.

I think Cersei's choice of location is a veiled threat, if I understood correctly, the dragon pit is where the last dragons were killed. Anyway, there are several things to criticise this season, but when people throw out "fan service" as a critique it's simply lazy. What I would call fan service is probably inconsequential stuff like Arya fighting Brienne, not the entire season.
 

gun_haver

Member
That doesn't sound like fan service to me, that sounds like shitty writing.

For the record, I 100% agree about Jaime and Bronn getting out with no repercussions. That was one of the most infuriating moments of the season, for sure.

As far as the dragon pit, I thought that was the best location for the meeting considering the past and what it means to the Targaryens. After Jaime told Cersei about the dragons wouldn't you think she would be curious to see them? Dany rides them everyone, it's kind of to be expected she would show up to King's Landing with her most powerful weapons, right?

Yeah I did segue into my criticisms of the writing without addressing why I think they are happening - to be clear, these kinds of lapses in character and failure to take up good story opportunities exist BECAUSE of the focus on fanservice.

What I meant is what I say with the Cersei thing - it didn't make sense for her to hold the meeting in the dragon's pit, but they tried to make it make sense because they wanted the dragon entrance. So, in the same way, the plant to kidnap a wight didn't make sense (why would they think Cersei would agree to a truce based on one reanimated zombie? they don't know what she actually knows, hell, she's got a reanimated zombie of a different kind as her personal bodyguard, it's all just random guesswork and half-cocked nothing), but they all acted like it was a plan of Great Importance because they wanted to have a Night King battle scene this year and that was either the best or first idea they came up with to justify it it. Spectacle driving story, rather than character driving story.

On another level, the 'reunion' type scenes have increased in frequency to the point where they don't actually have any time to actually focus on them. Hell, they didn't even have more than 4 minutes to dedicate to Tyrion and Jamie's first meeting, and then in this episode they are all buddy buddy again. These kinds of scenes are not about being true to the characters involved, but about producing a familiar dynamic the fans remember from their previous arcs in a regurgitated fashsion that doesn't actually add anything to the characters themselves. Take Sandor and Brienne's brief convo, the intention is not 'wow interesting, or 'huh, wonder what's gonna happen', the intention is 'squeeeee!!! they love arya!!!!', or Tyrion, Pod and Bronn, the intention is not 'what's going on with these characters now', it's 'man remember season 2!!!!'. That's fanservice.

The fanservice is rife high and low, that's what the show descended into - and this isn't about 'they aren't following the books' - I haven't even read the books, and I actually liked season 6 quite a lot, it's just this season, man. They've fucked it all up.

I think Cersei's choice of location is a veiled threat, if I understood correctly, the dragon pit is where the last dragons were killed. Anyway, there are several things to criticise this season, but when people throw out "fan service" as a critique it's simply lazy. What I would call fan service is probably inconsequential stuff like Arya fighting Brienne, not the entire season.

I get what you mean, but I don't think I'm simply being lazy in saying 'ugh, fanservice!'. I've tried to explain at least a few of the reasons I'm saying this is a problem - and for the record, I wouldn't identify fanservice as the specific problem with the show now, but the desire to be a spectacle as the core problem, and fan service as a symptom of this laziness in terms of writing. They resort to it because they know it is gonna work well enough for a good chunk of their now huge mainstream audience - that doesn't mean it's any fucking good.

As for Cersei's choice of location being a veiled threat, nah, doesn't scan. 'Here is the place where they used to keep your dragons, you bitch' is a point Cersei would definitely make, but in the face of the obvious disadvantage it puts her at, I don't see Cersei allowing the meeting to take place there, even if you do think she's kind of dumb, she's not that dumb.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Has anyone else seen Logan Lucky?
Theres a really funny scene that's about Game of Thrones that's straight outta this thread.
 

AndersK

Member
"Nowy Tendz".

I had to read that a few times Before it clicked. Amazing.

Great Casting tho. I know it's sorta silly he'd be wearing his hair the same way and the same set of armour at age 20 and 20+ years later, but actor really hit the spot Ned-wise. I'm sure that guy would be back asking who the fook that young guy was if They didn't, heh.

Which reminds me the timeline is sorta borked. Young Ned doesn't turn into old Ned in the span of Jon's 19ish year Lifetime.
 

Zetta

Member
I honestly don't understand the issue with Jon and Dany getting together. These two people are complete strangers and fell in love before they knew who they were to each other. After spending what I believe will be 2-3 weeks on that boat together she will get pregnant and they will form a family. Once all this is said and done Jon will not back out of this relationship since to him she is nothing more than the woman he loves.
 

Addi

Member
I get what you mean, but I don't think I'm simply being lazy in saying 'ugh, fanservice!'. I've tried to explain at least a few of the reasons I'm saying this is a problem - and for the record, I wouldn't identify fanservice as the specific problem with the show now, but the desire to be a spectacle as the core problem, and fan service as a symptom of this laziness in terms of writing. They resort to it because they know it is gonna work well enough for a good chunk of their now huge mainstream audience - that doesn't mean it's any fucking good.

As for Cersei's choice of location being a veiled threat, nah, doesn't scan. 'Here is the place where they used to keep your dragons, you bitch' is a point Cersei would definitely make, but in the face of the obvious disadvantage it puts her at, I don't see Cersei allowing the meeting to take place there, even if you do think she's kind of dumb, she's not that dumb.

True, I wouldn't called it lazy on your part since you are detailing what you mean when using the term fan service. A lot of other people have been using it in drive bys to dismiss everything. For my part there has been a couple of things that have irked me this season, but with only 6 episodes left I let them pass.
 

Doomsayer

Member
Yeah I did segue into my criticisms of the writing without addressing why I think they are happening - to be clear, these kinds of lapses in character and failure to take up good story opportunities exist BECAUSE of the focus on fanservice.

What I meant is what I say with the Cersei thing - it didn't make sense for her to hold the meeting in the dragon's pit, but they tried to make it make sense because they wanted the dragon entrance. So, in the same way, the plant to kidnap a wight didn't make sense (why would they think Cersei would agree to a truce based on one reanimated zombie? they don't know what she actually knows, hell, she's got a reanimated zombie of a different kind as her personal bodyguard, it's all just random guesswork and half-cocked nothing), but they all acted like it was a plan of Great Importance because they wanted to have a Night King battle scene this year and that was either the best or first idea they came up with to justify it it. Spectacle driving story, rather than character driving story.

On another level, the 'reunion' type scenes have increased in frequency to the point where they don't actually have any time to actually focus on them. Hell, they didn't even have more than 4 minutes to dedicate to Tyrion and Jamie's first meeting, and then in this episode they are all buddy buddy again. These kinds of scenes are not about being true to the characters involved, but about producing a familiar dynamic the fans remember from their previous arcs in a regurgitated fashsion that doesn't actually add anything to the characters themselves. Take Sandor and Brienne's brief convo, the intention is not 'wow interesting, or 'huh, wonder what's gonna happen', the intention is 'squeeeee!!! they love arya!!!!', or Tyrion, Pod and Bronn, the intention is not 'what's going on with these characters now', it's 'man remember season 2!!!!'. That's fanservice.

The fanservice is rife high and low, that's what the show descended into - and this isn't about 'they aren't following the books' - I haven't even read the books, and I actually liked season 6 quite a lot, it's just this season, man. They've fucked it all up.


I get what you mean, but I don't think I'm simply being lazy in saying 'ugh, fanservice!'. I've tried to explain at least a few of the reasons I'm saying this is a problem - and for the record, I wouldn't identify fanservice as the specific problem with the show now, but the desire to be a spectacle as the core problem, and fan service as a symptom of this laziness in terms of writing. They resort to it because they know it is gonna work well enough for a good chunk of their now huge mainstream audience - that doesn't mean it's any fucking good.

As for Cersei's choice of location being a veiled threat, nah, doesn't scan. 'Here is the place where they used to keep your dragons, you bitch' is a point Cersei would definitely make, but in the face of the obvious disadvantage it puts her at, I don't see Cersei allowing the meeting to take place there, even if you do think she's kind of dumb, she's not that dumb.

I think there is kind of a grey area when it comes to fan service, because these reunions don't translate to fan service for me. These are characters that have history with one another so of course when they see each other they are going to pull on those strings. Why? Because the audience (we) remember these scenes and their interactions.

I agree with the notion that these scenes are entirely too short and they don't do themselves any good when reestablishing relationships between the characters. Jaime and Tyrion is the most glaring example, hell, I think the Jorah and Tyrion reunion could've been incredible but because of the time restraint we got a bastardized version of what we deserved. Same with the reunion with Jorah and Dany.

I think the natural progression for GoT was to eventually turn into a spectacle. I mean we had years and years of political intrigue with the more fantasy type elements taking a backseat (Dragons, White Walkers, Dr. Branhattan). The build up to these blockbuster moments were incredible, so many good scenes and driving performances. Those are kind of gone now though, this is end game time. Now is when all of the plots tie together for one giant grand finale, of course it's going to be a spectacle. However, we still have the political intrigue with Cersei trying to backstab everyone. It's not forgotten, it's also not the driving plot device anymore.

I really wish Cersei would have said what I bolded. I legit laughed at that.
 

Vectorman

Banned
I just realized that maybe Tyrion will somehow convince Dany not to fly her dragons because she's pregnant and that's the key to her succession so she can't risk herself, so someone else has to fly them into battle and that's how Jon will end up becoming a dragonrider because it will be revealed to everyone that he's a Targ by then. For real, people would get very hyped if you saw Jon flying on Drogon/other dragon into battle and he shouts out, 'Dracarys!'
 

gun_haver

Member
I think there is kind of a grey area when it comes to fan service, because these reunions don't translate to fan service for me. These are characters that have history with one another so of course when they see each other they are going to pull on those strings. Why? Because the audience (we) remember these scenes and their interactions.

I agree with the notion that these scenes are entirely too short and they don't do themselves any good when reestablishing relationships between the characters. Jaime and Tyrion is the most glaring example, hell, I think the Jorah and Tyrion reunion could've been incredible but because of the time restraint we got a bastardized version of what we deserved. Same with the reunion with Jorah and Dany.

I think the natural progression for GoT was to eventually turn into a spectacle. I mean we had years and years of political intrigue with the more fantasy type elements taking a backseat (Dragons, White Walkers, Dr. Branhattan). The build up to these blockbuster moments were incredible, so many good scenes and driving performances. Those are kind of gone now though, this is end game time. Now is when all of the plots tie together for one giant grand finale, of course it's going to be a spectacle. However, we still have the political intrigue with Cersei trying to backstab everyone. It's not forgotten, it's also not the driving plot device anymore.

I really wish Cersei would have said what I bolded. I legit laughed at that.

It seems like we're kind of on the same page, but I've just got a more negative opinion of the developments than you do. I think it's because you look at the story overall, with all less nuanced and supernatural stuff being built in since the beginning, and say yeah well, what're ya gonna do, it's gonna go like this. I think I was just hoping that the show was going to pull one last 'fuck you, conventions' out of it's hat and I dunno, kill Dany and Jon this season or something crazy that throws things into left field again and go full force with confidence into the next season. But I guess that isn't the kind of ending they are going for at this point- I'm pretty disappointed, my girlfriend is REALLY disappointed because she's a megafan of the show.

Oh, I also don't like the fanservice dialogue stuff I have detailed just because I plain...don't think it's very funny or heartwarming, it just comes off as a bit hamfisted to me, and in light of the myriad other faults going on this seasons I wasn't inclined to be as understanding as I would like to be - but I accept that part is personal taste. That opinion is not even shared in my household.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
I just realized that maybe Tyrion will somehow convince Dany not to fly her dragons because she's pregnant and that's the key to her succession so she can't risk herself, so someone else has to fly them into battle and that's how Jon will end up becoming a dragonrider because it will be revealed to everyone that he's a Targ by then. For real, people would get very hyped if you saw Jon flying on Drogon/other dragon into battle and he shouts out, 'Dracarys!'

So Rheagal ends up getting killed, and then Jon takes over on Drogon when Dany gets pregnant? I can see Tyrion absolutely coming down hard on a strict no combat rule for Dany if she indeed becomes pregnant with the heir. The threat looming in the south is going to make keeping the non combat members of the family and group safe for sure. Where do Messandai, Sansa, Bran, pregnant Dany, etc go if the north gets overrun?
 

hoos30

Member
I think Cersei's choice of location is a veiled threat, if I understood correctly, the dragon pit is where the last dragons were killed. Anyway, there are several things to criticise this season, but when people throw out "fan service" as a critique it's simply lazy. What I would call fan service is probably inconsequential stuff like Arya fighting Brienne, not the entire season.
Fan Service is Davos making a "Still rowing?" Joke to Gendry. Or Jon calling Dany, well, Dany. Little winks between the writers and the hard core fans.

The general "fan service" criticism drives me bat shit crazy.
 

Famassu

Member
Fan Service is Davos making a "Still rowing?" Joke to Gendry. Or Jon calling Dany, well, Dany. Little winks between the writers and the hard core fans.

The general "fan service" criticism drives me bat shit crazy.
Fan service isn't just winks at the audience. It can be bigger things, from forming relationships fans ship hard to seeing certain characters together just because creators know they are a popular duo/trio & want to offer more of that to fans.

I just realized that maybe Tyrion will somehow convince Dany not to fly her dragons because she's pregnant and that's the key to her succession so she can't risk herself, so someone else has to fly them into battle and that's how Jon will end up becoming a dragonrider because it will be revealed to everyone that he's a Targ by then. For real, people would get very hyped if you saw Jon flying on Drogon/other dragon into battle and he shouts out, 'Dracarys!'
Ah, yes, forcing (one of) the major female character(s) to stay at home because of pregnancy while the man has epic heroic moment(s). That will go over well.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
They'll just fast forward to after the birth. Season 8 opens with Jon and Dany cooing over a yet unnamed child.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Fan Service is Davos making a "Still rowing?" Joke to Gendry. Or Jon calling Dany, well, Dany. Little winks between the writers and the hard core fans.

The general "fan service" criticism drives me bat shit crazy.

Why's the Dany thing a wink at the audience? It's just a shorter version of her name that a friend would use, it showed us that Jon considered her a friend and not just a queen that he had to make sure he called her by her full name, dude dropped the sama and gave her a chan. It's not like hardcore fans called her Dany before her own brother.
They'll just fast forward to after the birth. Season 8 opens with Jon and Dany cooing over a yet unnamed child.

I did listen to an interview where GRRM talked about doing a timeskip at some point but then abandoned that idea. I wonder if this is why Rickon was so young, so one day he would be a full fledged Stark that was actually able to do things besides go off-screen and then die.
 
Can Game of Thrones still surprise us?

Excellent summary of the issues of the last season, and why it was a let down for some.

Here are my issues with a few of these issues.

Killing off characters. If you kill off everyone important, the story is finished before it ends. No one would care if it was only Dickon and the Sands fighting the White Walkers because no one cares about them. You need characters that are established and have been around for a long time. Take a look at the OT for the third season and see how many characters are in the OP, compared to how many there are in this years OT.

Twists. These things still happen but here's the thing, eventually as you reach end game there are only so many possible twists and turns because you're roster is reduced greatly and your story has to narrow to reach a conclusion. In the first season we all thought Ned was end game, Robb was end game, Tywin, we though he was as well, just as the video states. But what benefit would there be to killing off Brienne right now? There isn't one other than shock value, just as there really isn't any reason to keep her around. So why not keep her around, she's liked, she can fight. Not at all essential to the story it seems, but who knows. This goes for a lot of the remaining cast. It's not like we didn't lose any major characters this season and it's not like they still can't offer something that will shock us. We didn't expect to see Shae in Tywins quarters, but there she was.

Next, and this is the biggest, speculation and leaks. It comes to a point where there are only so many possible outcomes especially when it comes to the end game, it's a lot harder to be surprising when the two biggest outcomes are, white walkers win, or white walkers lose. But worse than that is when there are assholes coming in here, a place that's well guarded against leak talks and spoilers and they say boatsex 2 weeks before it happens. No one knows they're spoiling anything but they are. Suddenly speculation becomes fact because of leaks and limited threads in which the story can take.

Also, a couple years ago there were a lot of complaints about how this show was becoming predicable. Not because it started to follow fantasy tropes, but because it kept following it's own rules and that those rules became comical and predictable. "They killed Jon? That's just bad writing man, it's so predicable now, what's the point if you're going to kill everyone off"...Now a couple years later, "OMG everyone has plot armor all of the sudden, this show is pure fantasy now, it's so predicable it's just bad writing."

The biggest issue of the season was travel time, it was handled poorly in a lot of cases. Dany swooping in to save the fellowship could have been handled a lot better. Benjen saving Jon could be seen as Benjen was always watching the NK from a safe distance. It could have been better if Bran as the Three eyed raved sent him to save Jon, just as the 3ER sent Uncle B to save Bran and Meera last season.

Anyway, I see why some people have issues, but I think you need to understand that there are reasons, the leaks will ruin things, speculation will ruin things, the story needs to funnel and you need characters for people to care about otherwise, who cares about the story that's happening around their dead bodies. Did the season have issues? Yup, but so did every other season, for different reasons. People literally stopped watching because they killed people they cared about. The show evolved and it has to come to an end, that's it, and the end will never satisfy everyone. Not one with this many moving pieces along the way.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Was thinking about this earlier, did anyone else not realize that in season 6 Lyanna was saying Jon's "real" name when she whispered it to Ned? The way the scene played out, I thought she said, "his name is Jon" but muffled it so we wouldn't be spoiled with the cut from baby to adult Jon, which would've been less impactful if we had gotten the full reveal seconds earlier with her whisper but it turns out she was actually saying his actual Targaryen name.
 

AndersK

Member
if all you're looking for is to be surprised by plot points, you're missing 90% of what makes television potentially great.

[and it sounds like this guy, and many like him, can't see past that single fact]

And Jon's parentage might be one of the better long form twists out There. They way it's woven into the fabric of everything that's happened is impressive. Too bad cultural osmosis kinda lessened the impact for Some.

I remember my face melting once I came upon the theory years ago.
 

Vectorman

Banned
Ah, yes, forcing (one of) the major female character(s) to stay at home because of pregnancy while the man has epic heroic moment(s). That will go over well.

When you frame it that way, it definitely looks bad but I don't know how many pregnant women go on flying dragons trying to defeat supernatural forces of evil and all that. Plus she has made a real bad decision before that got her child killed and turned her husband into a human vegetable. Do you think she wants to risk losing another child again? I think that's what Tyrion is concerned about when he brought up that succession convo and it will definitely come up again if she does end up preggers. Speaking of which, why hasn't anyone taught Dany how to use a damn sword? Like give the girl some close combat experience so she can fight.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
it seems to me that the vast majority are grossed out/hate it...

Someone said something similar, so I went on the Dany and Jon trending topic on Twitter and spent, like, ten minutes reading all the tweets. Most people were loving it and not even bringing up the incest, a few said it was weird but they still liked it and then a few just straight up said it was no bueno.

Unless Twitter has an incest fetish, then I'd say that most people like them and are overlooking the incest.
 

Jombie

Member
I agree with that the execution needed work, but the plot armor was a sacrifice to have these characters make it to season 8 -- where few of them will make out. 7 is basically a transition season.

This season had some great moments. "The Spoils of War" and "The Dragon and the Wolf" are great episodes, "Beyond the Wall" obviously being the worst. That said I don't think it's worse than the worst of season 5 and 6 had to offer.
 
Someone said something similar, so I went on the Dany and Jon trending topic on Twitter and spent, like, ten minutes reading all the tweets. Most people were loving it and not even bringing up the incest, a few said it was weird but they still liked it and then a few just straight up said it was no bueno.

Unless Twitter has an incest fetish, then I'd say that most people liked them and are overlooking the incest.

GbHe7TV.png
 
Was thinking about this earlier, did anyone else not realize that in season 6 Lyanna was saying Jon's "real" name when she whispered it to Ned? The way the scene played out, I thought she said, "his name is Jon" but muffled it so we wouldn't be spoiled with the cut from baby to adult Jon, which would've been less impactful if we had gotten the full reveal seconds earlier with her whisper but it turns out she was actually saying his actual Targaryen name.

Yeah I rewatched that scene a thousand times and it was clear she said Aegon.
 

Vectorman

Banned
I have a feeling when everything is done that the JonxDany related-thing will be something that fans will just let slide and the rest of the population will giggle over the incest thing forever.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops

Gin-Shiio

Member
Anyone else think the finale completely redeemed Bran? It made clear that he cannot see everything at once, but has to do selective research. Littlefinger gave him the dagger a few episodes ago, and he already knew about his "chaos is a ladder" line. That means he actively was researching what happened to his father in King's Landing. Flash forward to the finale, and he helps his sisters out Littlefinger as the criminal he is in addition to finding out about his brother's birth parents, just for his sake. Bran's humanity was never gone, just took on a different form. He did all he could to help his family in his own way. I'm pretty pleased with him.
 
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