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Game of Thrones - Season 2 - George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire - Sundays on HBO
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Steelyuhas
Member
ACOK
Unless I'm mistaken, in the book, Tywin leaves Harrenhal to go west to pursue Robb, but then Edmure holds him up in the riverlands, and word gets to Tywin about Stannis' attack, and he turns his forces south.
Basically Edmure fucked the whole thing up.
Basically Edmure fucked the whole thing up.
No, I'm asking if the way I perceive the events of the television show reflects the intention of the author. Other people answered me just fine.
Exactly all the Quarth stuff was totally different, but I think its turned out more interesting than watching Dany sit in a dead city and then finally have PP, Q and XXD role up on them. I'm mean I don't know obviously but its seems likely that this next episode is where the wheels are really going to start turning for the Battle.
I mean the other option would be them building it up all season and then all you'd hear on the topic is people complaining about it taking to long for anything to happen
I really hope Tyrion has the KL defenders practice with pots full of green paint; If not I'm jumping ship. I prob won't even read the last 2 book. How could I support something like that
I mean the other option would be them building it up all season and then all you'd hear on the topic is people complaining about it taking to long for anything to happen
I really hope Tyrion has the KL defenders practice with pots full of green paint; If not I'm jumping ship. I prob won't even read the last 2 book. How could I support something like that
Speevy not really. Its a new concept to me, but i think its a good idea. Im not sure what I spoilt here
Forsaken82
Member
Well, lets assume your theory works out
Qhorin and company are captured as well. At least in this scenario, they will likely be imprisoned together in which case Qhorin will be able to tell Jon that it is inevitable and that he must kill Qhorin to prove himself to the Wildlings and get in close with them to understand them
otherwise jon's return to the wall will seem somewhat pointless 
PhoenixDark
Banned
ACOK
Edmure was supposed to wait for Robb so he could flank Tywin's forces. Instead Edmure attacked and won to a certain degree, but Tywin's retreat allowed him to escape Robb's trap. He heard about Renly's death after the battle with Edmure and left immediately
Forsaken82
Member
He did come up with an alternative plan... why do you think he tells the Pyromancer he is no longer making Wildfire for Cersei, but for him instead. In the book, if I recall, we find out about the "plan" through inner monologue, they DON'T have to show us anything until it actually happens, but we DO know that whatever his "plan" is, involves the wildfire.
we just don't know about the chain yet
The problem with this thread in the past few days is that some critics have taken on this attitude, where they say their problems are based more on the direction/editing/quality of the show, but then for the most part they spend 80% of their time criticizing the show based on issues stemming from having read the books. And then if someone responds to those criticisms, we get a response saying no it's not about the books, when most of it clearly is (i.e. you won't have a problem with the riot scene being "too small" if you don't know what it originally looked like in the book). Finally, some of the critics accuse those of us questioning them of "wanting a bad show." This, despite the fact that I have offered my own criticisms of how the season has played out.
Here's ten (edit: scratch that, twelve!) critiques of this season, just to show that I have critic cred!
*ACOK/ASOS Spoilers*
12. The inclusion of Dany's new material is completely justified, but many of these scenes have definitely hurt the viewers' conception of her. By making her spend more time whining for her dragons and acting like she's entitled to Westeros, many of them are saying that she's just as bad as Viserys now. They can still fix this, by showing her concern for "good rule" of her subects later, but it hasn't done her any favors now.
11. Robb's scenes are boring. Robb himself is boring. It is absolutely understandable that they'd want to put Robb onscreen more than he was present in the books, but his storyline with "Talisa" has been dull, while his Notherner allies have been left undeveloped. Roose Bolton's actor is fine, but his character has been hurt by the fact that he hasn't been at Harrenhal (I suppose there's still time for this, incuding in season 3).
10. Jaime killing Alton was a good scene, but had poor underlying thought behind it. I've previously offered a reasonable justification for the character choice (to remind the viewers that he is not simply a swell character who makes jokes and is charming, and to give something to later develop him away from), but it was still a poorly written escape attempt. No way did he actually have to kill him to do that.
9. Ros/Brothel scenes are both bad and completely manufactured by the show. Thankfully they've been left behind since episode 3(?).
8. Renly's death was poorly directed, mostly because of the editing, the quick non-chalance of the shadow, and the way the guards came in afterwards. Further, they've given poor indication of the consequences of his death. Stannis just suddenly had all his men, and no gravitas was given to the fact that the tides had turned so dramatically in his favor. How can Stannis be an imposing storm headed for King's Landing when we have practicaly no indication of just how many men he has relative to the City Watch?
7. Littlefinger continued to be completely misused for the first half of the season (his last two scenes have been okay). His interactions with Tyrion and Catelyn made him look like an idiot.
6. Beyond-The-Wall scenes have been the weakest part of this season. The Night's Watch hasn't been interesting since they were at Craster's Keep, and Jon Snow is dull as dishwater. So far they've missed the opportunity to show off the key aspect of Jon's chapters in book 2, the implications of what's mounting in the far north, nor have they given Jon Snow anything to affect his arc. Of course they do have 3 episodes to climax into something better, so final judgments will be held off.
5. Arya/Tywin stuff is good tv, but it doesn't seem to have much relevance as we move forward in Arya's story. I'm not concerned about them making Tywin "too nice," since they'll no doubt do a good job of deconstructing that in seasons 3&4, but the biggest problem is that things have been considerably less dire for Arya in the latter half of the season. How can her character develop the way it will when she has so many fewer dramatic experiences?
4. The ACOK prologue scene was poorly done. It is impossile to get the full effect when you don't have Maester Cressen's internal monologue, but it was still rushed, gave none of the necessary backstory, and established nothing except for giving a slight indication of Melisandre's power. Oh yeah, and where's that Red Comet these days?!
3. Stannis/Davos have negligable screentime. I am more satisfied with Stannis' onscreen portrayal than many, but he's hardly ever been onscreen! Show-only people likely don't even know who Davos is, and yet the show has acted like we can assume most of his backstory.
2. No Reek. Evil Dagmer does a good job of filling the space, but the actual twist and upset that Ramsay pulls on Theon is one of the best parts of ACOK. I have no idea how the season will end, so I can't say it'll be bad, but I don't see how they can do justice to this.
1. Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage's accent still off-putting, but they've barely taken advantage of Tyrion's presence in King's Landing at all. After episode 2, he hasn't really done anything that would affect the city or its defense preparations. Tyrion saved King's Landing in ACOK, and they will likely act as if he saved it in Season 2 as well, but when people in the show give him no credit the viewers will largely have to agree with them. Again, it's a little unfair to say this when there's another episode before the big battle which might address much of this, but I'm skeptical that they'll have the time to adequately represent things. As it stands, the politics of court in King's Landing has been completely ignored, and I wouldn't even be surprised if some viewers have forgotten that Tyrion is totally in charge.
11. Robb's scenes are boring. Robb himself is boring. It is absolutely understandable that they'd want to put Robb onscreen more than he was present in the books, but his storyline with "Talisa" has been dull, while his Notherner allies have been left undeveloped. Roose Bolton's actor is fine, but his character has been hurt by the fact that he hasn't been at Harrenhal (I suppose there's still time for this, incuding in season 3).
10. Jaime killing Alton was a good scene, but had poor underlying thought behind it. I've previously offered a reasonable justification for the character choice (to remind the viewers that he is not simply a swell character who makes jokes and is charming, and to give something to later develop him away from), but it was still a poorly written escape attempt. No way did he actually have to kill him to do that.
9. Ros/Brothel scenes are both bad and completely manufactured by the show. Thankfully they've been left behind since episode 3(?).
8. Renly's death was poorly directed, mostly because of the editing, the quick non-chalance of the shadow, and the way the guards came in afterwards. Further, they've given poor indication of the consequences of his death. Stannis just suddenly had all his men, and no gravitas was given to the fact that the tides had turned so dramatically in his favor. How can Stannis be an imposing storm headed for King's Landing when we have practicaly no indication of just how many men he has relative to the City Watch?
7. Littlefinger continued to be completely misused for the first half of the season (his last two scenes have been okay). His interactions with Tyrion and Catelyn made him look like an idiot.
6. Beyond-The-Wall scenes have been the weakest part of this season. The Night's Watch hasn't been interesting since they were at Craster's Keep, and Jon Snow is dull as dishwater. So far they've missed the opportunity to show off the key aspect of Jon's chapters in book 2, the implications of what's mounting in the far north, nor have they given Jon Snow anything to affect his arc. Of course they do have 3 episodes to climax into something better, so final judgments will be held off.
5. Arya/Tywin stuff is good tv, but it doesn't seem to have much relevance as we move forward in Arya's story. I'm not concerned about them making Tywin "too nice," since they'll no doubt do a good job of deconstructing that in seasons 3&4, but the biggest problem is that things have been considerably less dire for Arya in the latter half of the season. How can her character develop the way it will when she has so many fewer dramatic experiences?
4. The ACOK prologue scene was poorly done. It is impossile to get the full effect when you don't have Maester Cressen's internal monologue, but it was still rushed, gave none of the necessary backstory, and established nothing except for giving a slight indication of Melisandre's power. Oh yeah, and where's that Red Comet these days?!
3. Stannis/Davos have negligable screentime. I am more satisfied with Stannis' onscreen portrayal than many, but he's hardly ever been onscreen! Show-only people likely don't even know who Davos is, and yet the show has acted like we can assume most of his backstory.
2. No Reek. Evil Dagmer does a good job of filling the space, but the actual twist and upset that Ramsay pulls on Theon is one of the best parts of ACOK. I have no idea how the season will end, so I can't say it'll be bad, but I don't see how they can do justice to this.
1. Tyrion. Not only is Dinklage's accent still off-putting, but they've barely taken advantage of Tyrion's presence in King's Landing at all. After episode 2, he hasn't really done anything that would affect the city or its defense preparations. Tyrion saved King's Landing in ACOK, and they will likely act as if he saved it in Season 2 as well, but when people in the show give him no credit the viewers will largely have to agree with them. Again, it's a little unfair to say this when there's another episode before the big battle which might address much of this, but I'm skeptical that they'll have the time to adequately represent things. As it stands, the politics of court in King's Landing has been completely ignored, and I wouldn't even be surprised if some viewers have forgotten that Tyrion is totally in charge.
The difference is that I haven't taken those criticisms to the point of saying "ugh, this show is garbage! I hope you sychophants enjoy your inferior story!" <- granted, this was only one guy being overdramatic, but his post was quoted and agreed with by many, launching the current dynamic in this thread. I can also recognize that several of my stated criticisms are my own preference for the way things should be, not an objective standard by which the show must play out.
Steelyuhas
Member
ACOK
Yeah, it's one of the most frustrating moments in the entire series for me. If Edmure had followed orders, Stannis probably would have taken King's Landing and the Starks may have been able to finish of Tywin.
NoRéN;37965150 said:
Just a heads up, you guys should probably be in the non-book readers thread.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=467562
They definitely need better directors for next season as well as a $100,000,000 budget to go from being a good show to a great show. Writers also need to focus better when implementing greater character background info for characters from the book. No script should have been allowed to go out the door if another occurrence of Xaro going on about coming from nothing to being the richest man in Qarth after the eight or ninth fuckin' time.
I like the show, but there's so many small little infuriating amateur-hour mistakes.
I like the show, but there's so many small little infuriating amateur-hour mistakes.
I think the issue isn't inexperienced directors or not enough money, it's lack of time. David & Dan are basically working year-round to produce this show.
As soon as filming for season two was finished, they began blocking out the story beats for season three and then began writing the scripts, even before they had gotten the season order. (Oh yeah, this was being done while they also worked on post-production work for season two.)
As soon as they get the season order, the casting, location scouting, set designing, etc. begins. Then they have to film 10 hours in a span of ~175 days (as a point of reference, the 9 hour LOTR trilogy was filmed in 438 days) over three different countries. Then they go into post-production and assist in the editing, dubbing, music and special effects work (and, of course, they will begin writing season four). Oh, and during all this they also have to give interviews and make panel appearances and show up at awards shows...
They are essentially making a 10 hour movie in about 15 months. A typical fantasy/genre film is a little over 2 hours and goes from development to finished product in around 3 years.
So basically, they don't have the time to make every scene perfect, whether from a writing or directorial stand-point. So there are going to be little things like an extra not kicking very hard that they will have to live with if they want to get the show done on time and under budget. The fact that the show works as well as it does is a testament to Benioff & Weiss and all the folks working so hard on this show.
PS This is why it really irks me when I hear people criticizing the show for being "lazy" in its writing or directing. These guys are the exact opposite of lazy and are doing the best they can with the time they have.
People complaining about "not showing Stannis enough" need to realize that Davos only had 3 fucking chapters in the book. It's not like Stannis was shown a hell of a lot in the source material.
Anyway, so far I think season 1 was better overall compared to season 2. I don't mind changes from the book, and I realize that it will be necessary in some circumstances. But some of them, specifically the Dany and Jon changes in the last couple episodes, are just baffling decisions to me. I can't see why they didn't just stick with Jon's arc from the book. It would be easy to translate to film, and a hell of a lot better than chasing Ygritte for 2 episodes. And with Dany, I can understand why they felt the need to give her more screen time because she doesn't do a lot in this book and some viewers really like her (somehow), but I just don't like Dany in the first place, book or TV show, and I can't bring myself to give a single fuck about this whole ridiculous "dragons stolen in Qarth" storyline.
On the other hand, while the changes and omissions from Arya and Bran/Theon's storylines bother me a bit, I don't mind too much because they've at least still lead to good and interesting scenes. And I actually like how they're handling Theon more than the book.
But this season in general just seems all over the fucking place in terms of quality and pacing. It feels more rushed and less consistent than the first season.
Anyway, so far I think season 1 was better overall compared to season 2. I don't mind changes from the book, and I realize that it will be necessary in some circumstances. But some of them, specifically the Dany and Jon changes in the last couple episodes, are just baffling decisions to me. I can't see why they didn't just stick with Jon's arc from the book. It would be easy to translate to film, and a hell of a lot better than chasing Ygritte for 2 episodes. And with Dany, I can understand why they felt the need to give her more screen time because she doesn't do a lot in this book and some viewers really like her (somehow), but I just don't like Dany in the first place, book or TV show, and I can't bring myself to give a single fuck about this whole ridiculous "dragons stolen in Qarth" storyline.
On the other hand, while the changes and omissions from Arya and Bran/Theon's storylines bother me a bit, I don't mind too much because they've at least still lead to good and interesting scenes. And I actually like how they're handling Theon more than the book.
But this season in general just seems all over the fucking place in terms of quality and pacing. It feels more rushed and less consistent than the first season.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
This was initiated way before the season 3 one was announced as well as a lot of prep, so we'll see where that leads...
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Well, lets assume your theory works outThat is really the only way I can see them redeeming Jon's current arc (asos)Qhorin and company are captured as well. At least in this scenario, they will likely be imprisoned together in which case Qhorin will be able to tell Jon that it is inevitable and that he must kill Qhorin to prove himself to the Wildlings and get in close with them to understand them. without it seeming forced.otherwise jon's return to the wall will seem somewhat pointless
A huge problem with Jon's arc is ACOK
that he hasn't really done anything to earn any credibility or trust with Quorin. The only thing of note he's done in the Night's Watch has been to kill the wight. Everything else involves him getting yelled at or beaten up. In the book (if I remember correctly), Quorin asked Mormont for Jon to accompany them. In the show Jon just wants to join for no apparent reason other than to get out of being a steward. And Quorin agrees. Then they talk for about a minute, then engage in a fight of like 5 people versus 3 sleeping people (whereas in the book it was Jon and one other guy against 3 people if I remember correctly, so Jon gets a chance to show he's a decent fighter.) Also Quorin learns of Jon's ability to warg. All of these events at least gives Quorin some trust in Jon. In the show it'll be like, "Oh well, we've been captured and I guess your the only option, idiot that you are. Can't even execute a bound or hostage or keep them hostage without getting caught, but I guess you'll do."
Maybe I am comparing it too much to the book, which isn't healthy when watching an adaptation. None of the other changes really bother me though. Dany's new story is fine (apart from dead Irri), and I don't see a problem with Jaime killing his cousin. Or Arya and Tywin, which is really entertaining (but I do have to strain belief at no one wondering why a little girl was traveling with the Night's Watch, I guess maybe they forgot about it after they mixed her in with the others). I dunno.
But this isn't the book and is just an adaptation. So they can show more Stannis even if there isn't that much Stannis source material or whatever.
They have no problems "making up" scenes for other characters.
I don't really mind lack of Stannis that much though. I would like there to be more sense that King's Landing is actually in danger. Right now it's just a sentence here and there but I don't feel it. Even like... showing a bunch of CG boats or something would at least give me some sense that someone is actually moving.
And there needs to be more focus on defense preparations. All I got right now is the wild fire thing. If that's all the defense they're going to have, then it doesn't sound like they're very worried about defense.
I get the sense that the people living there are more dangerous than the two armies that are supposed to be moving towards King's Landing.
They have no problems "making up" scenes for other characters.
I don't really mind lack of Stannis that much though. I would like there to be more sense that King's Landing is actually in danger. Right now it's just a sentence here and there but I don't feel it. Even like... showing a bunch of CG boats or something would at least give me some sense that someone is actually moving.
And there needs to be more focus on defense preparations. All I got right now is the wild fire thing. If that's all the defense they're going to have, then it doesn't sound like they're very worried about defense.
I get the sense that the people living there are more dangerous than the two armies that are supposed to be moving towards King's Landing.
Yeah, I thought I remembered hearing of location scouting for season two happening prior to the greenlight, but didn't feel like looking it up.
I know that some other pre-production stuff also happens prior to the greenlight, but the point is there is a shit-ton of stuff these guys are responsible for and it all has to happen in a relatively short amount of time.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
My wording was a bit confusing. I'm not sure about season 2 but definitely season 3, they got the early jump on scouting before there was any order for season 3.
Right. Pretty sure they did the same with season two. And I think some other stuff starts happening before the greenlight too, like concept art and the like.
Yet, as far as many of us are concerned, it is the reason behind many of you losing your shit. The show has occasional problems, without question, and no one is willing to argue that. But the amount of hyperbole, drama and imagination that goes into some of these posts is pretty amusing. Some of you will make criticisms that are obviously the product of comparison but in the same breath say that it has nothing to do with the book. Completely oblivious.
I'm not happy with how this season is developing, but I can concede that a lot of that has to do with the preconceptions I've gone in with and how difficult it is to not overly scrutinize newly invented (or adjusted) scenes.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
the reason "many of us" are "losing our shit" is because our standards are probably higher than "many of you"
GOT is not competing with the books, it's competing with the other TV shows I watch. That's -- at the moment -- Mad Men and Breaking Bad.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
I meant currently in-production, rather than discontinued.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Wat?
Chris Pine as Hodor.
Just checked the list with the titles of the last episodes and the tv guide info. Just looking at that stuff covers most complaints about not enough
How can anyone do anything other than absolutely enjoy the hell out of this show??
How can you even compare it to those tame AMC shows??
Breaking Bad is tame compared to GoT I dont care how many people get
Stannis and Jon.
How can anyone do anything other than absolutely enjoy the hell out of this show??
How can you even compare it to those tame AMC shows??
Breaking Bad is tame compared to GoT I dont care how many people get
melted
PhoenixDark
Banned
That doesn't excuse bad writing though; it's in many ways the backbone of most shows, and has to be done right. Given the time spent on script writing, it's not wrong to expect more consistent material imo. The Vanessa Taylor scrips are especially problematic
I like the show's writing. I mean I like its dialogue. Now I don't know if any or most of it comes from the books, but the first thing I noticed when I caught the show is how conflicted everything is.
Like how most of the characters in the Lannister camp have commented on what a bad idea it was to kill Ned Stark, or how Dany ended up falling in love with a man who essentially raped her in the first episode.
If I could compare it to my favorite show (Rome), I would say that despite that show's top-notch acting and direction, the characters' motivations were almost always crystal clear at every second.
Like how most of the characters in the Lannister camp have commented on what a bad idea it was to kill Ned Stark, or how Dany ended up falling in love with a man who essentially raped her in the first episode.
If I could compare it to my favorite show (Rome), I would say that despite that show's top-notch acting and direction, the characters' motivations were almost always crystal clear at every second.
I think everyone hated that Ned Stark was executed. They didn't want him as the Hand of the King or whatever, but didn't want him dead. It was Joffrey who messed everything up and caused the war with the Starks. If I remember right, even Cersei was against it when Joffrey announced Ned's execution.
And about Dany... well... that's probably one reason why I never liked her.
What do you mean by tame? That those shows don't have enough sex and violence? Because I think most of us here come to it for a lot more than that
NathanMcMahon
Banned
it's okay, the quote speaks for itself.
Meh, I think Rez was just frustrated because many people including him have made good analytical posts outlining crtisisms that have nothing to do with comparing the books to the show, and yet the people on the negative side of the fence are constantly being labeled as purists bitching and nitpicking at the slightest deviation.
bengraven
Member
He has a Stephen Fry avatar. He knows he's immune to scrutiny and automatically our love of Stephen gets put on him.
It's the same trick demi pulled with Nick Frost.
Trolls using British iconic actor-comedians to weasel their ways into our hearts.
no, the ones who are referred to as negative because of comparisons to the book are the ones that are negative because of comparisons to the book. There's been plenty of discussion on other aspects of the show, good and bad.
I still don't understand why it's so bad to say "I don't like this scene because it happened this other way in the book".
The other thread is where people pretend the books don't exist. Here we acknowledge they exist and I think discussions about differences are valid. But for the last few pages, every time someone wanted to discuss differences with the book (and even some people who were just criticizing - not based on the books at all) had a bunch of people respond with "IT'S NOT THE BOOKS DEAL WITH IT". That's really frustrating when you're trying to have a conversation.
There's the other thread with no book talk if comparisons are a bother to you isn't there?
The other thread is where people pretend the books don't exist. Here we acknowledge they exist and I think discussions about differences are valid. But for the last few pages, every time someone wanted to discuss differences with the book (and even some people who were just criticizing - not based on the books at all) had a bunch of people respond with "IT'S NOT THE BOOKS DEAL WITH IT". That's really frustrating when you're trying to have a conversation.
There's the other thread with no book talk if comparisons are a bother to you isn't there?
I don't think anyone in here is advocating acting like the books don't exist.
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