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[Socreges]

I still don't understand why it's so bad to say "I don't like this scene because it happened this other way in the book.

The other thread is where people pretend the books don't exist. Here we acknowledge they exist and I think discussions about differences are valid. But for the last few pages, every time someone wanted to discuss differences with the book (and even some people who were just criticizing - not based on the books at all) had a bunch of people respond with "IT'S NOT THE BOOKS DEAL WITH IT". That's really frustrating when you're trying to have a conversation.

There's the other thread with no book talk if comparisons are a bother to you isn't there?

Er, no.

First off, most people are not talking about differences with the book, but saying their criticisms are being made irrespective of the book. And for those complaining about changes from the book... that's obviously 100% fair... but other people are pointing out why some of these changes are necessary (although some criticisms seem to be consensus).

 

[Deleted member 30609]

if you're going to quote that post by itself, without the post it was in response to, the one that used the vague, smug language and weak strawman in the first place -- well -- stay classy.

Meh, I think Rez was just frustrated because many people including him have made good analytical post outlining crtisisms that have nothing to do with comparing the books to the show, and yet the people on the negative side of the fence are constantly being labeled as purists bitching and nitpicking at the slightest deviation.

thank you.

 

[LuchaShaq]

But the problem is most book readers do not, and even cannot, acknowledge the preconceived notions they have before even watching the episode.

You HAVE to put yourself in the head space of a normal viewer. And no, I don't just mean a normal viewer who likes fantasy, just a normal viewer in general.

Balancing all of these aspects, whilst balancing budgetary issues along with casting screen time issues (SAG stuff), proper planning for set and costume re-use, etc., it becomes so much more complicated than is given credit for.

HBO doesn't give two craps about the book reader viewership. They will watch regardless barring the series being crapped up to an irrecoverable degree, in which case no one will watch anyways. They are spending big bucks to try and get True Blood-ish audience levels, that transcend the usual genre expectations.

I may watch but it's on my parents hbo account and I was going to buy the blu rays for season 1 but if season 2 is indicative of the future I'm holding out because it would be weird to have season 1 but not the rest, and I don't want to buy season 2 so far.

Their changes to COK cost them 2 blu ray sales so far.

I'd also argue many of their changes make it both a worse tv show and a worse adaptation.

 

[frequency]

Er, no.

First off, most people are not talking about differences with the book, but saying their criticisms are being made irrespective of the book. And for those complaining about changes from the book... that's obviously 100% fair... but other people are pointing out why some of these changes are necessary (although some criticisms seem to be consensus).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding then. Or reading things in the wrong tone. It's hard to understand tone.

I just feel like I've seen so many posts lately responding to criticism by saying the person is just comparing to the books. Like, someone would make a good post about some negative things with direction, writing, etc, and someone always responds by saying something like "you wouldn't think that way if you didn't read the books!"

And I find that response silly in the first place. The books exist and it's fair to compare. And some criticism about how this or that scene wasn't done well is truly because that person thought they weren't done well. But defenders come in and dismiss that opinion by saying it's just because of the books - even though it isn't.

I think it's unfair to:
1) Dismiss criticism about how it's different from the books.
2) Accuse someone of not liking a certain scene just because they've read the books.

I think it's fine to talk about why you think that person is incorrect in their criticism though. Like we talked a little yesterday about Jon. I thought that was fair.

 

[methodman]

This is the first tv series I'm following at the same time as most of GAF... Is this how all of them go? 95% whining and shit. Lol.

 

[tmdorsey]

This is the first tv series I'm following at the same time as most of GAF... Is this how all of them go? 95% whining and shit. Lol.

Pretty much.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

This is the first tv series I'm following at the same time as most of GAF... Is this how all of them go? 95% whining and shit. Lol.

when there are a lot of fans who have a preconceived notion of the world that the show takes place in, it's expected.

 

[Vyer]

I just feel like I've seen so many posts lately responding to criticism by saying the person is just comparing to the books. Like, someone would make a good post about some negative things with direction, writing, etc, and someone always responds by saying something like "you wouldn't think that way if you didn't read the books!".

Can you give an example of this? I am asking honestly, it's a little hard to backtrack (especially since it's a lot of blocks of black, lol) but it doesn't seem to be a majority of the conversations.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

Can you give an example of this? I am asking honestly, it's a little hard to backtrack (especially since it's a lot of blocks of black, lol) but it doesn't seem to be a majority of the conversations.

a better way of explaining the problem with this thread isn't pointing to the thoughtful replies that are explicitly dismissed, because that isn't common. Instead, you get a bunch of people passively calling out the whole thread as "bitching and whining" or "having unrealistic expectations relative to the book" rather than actually engaging in a discussion with any one poster. It helps no one. It adds nothing to the conversation.

 

[Speevy]

I think that the people who criticize this show on the basis of the books need to stop and consider the people who like the show. If you like the show and the books, you need to consider the people who like neither the show nor the books. If you like the show but not the books, you need to read the show before you watch the books. But if you can't be bothered to consider the opinion of those who read the books, then you need to stop watching the show. There are things in the books which simply can't be done in the show, but there are things in the show which can't be done in the books. If you don't like way the show is edited, you have to consider that some people don't like the way the books are edited. If your criticism of the criticism the show has received is not critical of other criticisms that the book has received, you are not being objective.

 

[q_q]

Can you give an example of this? I am asking honestly, it's a little hard to backtrack (especially since it's a lot of blocks of black, lol) but it doesn't seem to be a majority of the conversations.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37895305&postcount=10343

It's difficult to bring up in conversation that some things are better in the books and the way you feel about that, such as the way they changed Jaime's character with this past episode, or say the way they changed Jon's decision not to kill Ygritte, when you have posts like these.

Yes there are a lot of irrational posts in this thread where people expect unreasonable things from the way the books are adapted in the show. However, some complaints about decisions the writers made that are different from the books are valid, but they unfortunately get grouped together with the other posts sometimes and I think that's unfair.

 

[Pecan1]

Ive said it before, but it seems like a lot of the changes that have been considered negative just need to wait to see how things play out in the final episodes

And it just seems super snarky to make a weak argument about why whatever is negative about the show not really make a point and just sum the criticism up as weak writing ?

Weak writing? get over yourself


at the same time

deal with it. its the show not the book.

isnt helpful to anything

 

[Emerson]

This is the first tv series I'm following at the same time as most of GAF... Is this how all of them go? 95% whining and shit. Lol.

This is by far the worst I've ever taken part in.

 

[JGS]

This is the first tv series I'm following at the same time as most of GAF... Is this how all of them go? 95% whining and shit. Lol.

The whining is much better when there isn't source material though. The Lost threads (new thread for each episode) were great because it seemed like a weekly debate on whether it jumped the shark or not with large amounts of plot theory. A thread as unique as the show.

 

[Speevy]

This is by far the worst I've ever taken part in.

At least it's not Dexter.

 

[Vyer]

a better way of explaining the problem with this thread isn't pointing to the thoughtful replies that are explicitly dismissed, because that isn't common. Instead, you'll get a bunch of people passively calling out the whole thread as "bitching and whining" or "having unrealistic expectations relative to the book" rather than actually engaging in a discussion with any one poster. It helps no one. It adds nothing to the conversation.

But that's really just an assumption on your part that it's 'calling out the whole thread'. There have been discussions on other aspects of the show. Why assume posts about 'it's not like the book' people are referring to people who aren't?

Personally, though I don't agree with a lot of it, issues with acting or directing for example are fair game and people are entitled to that opinion. However, there are people that are clearly not handling the medium change/adaptation issue well (which as we all know is a common occurrence in these types of situations), and that's what those posts are (imo pretty clearly) referring to. That's it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37895305&postcount=10343

It's difficult to bring up in conversation that some things are better in the books and the way you feel about that, such as the way they changed Jaime's character with this past episode, or say the way they changed Jon's decision not to kill Ygritte, when you have posts like these.

Yes there are a lot of irrational posts in this thread where people expect unreasonable things from the way the books are adapted in the show. However, some complaints about decisions the writers made that are different from the books are valid, but they unfortunately get grouped together with the other posts sometimes and I think that's unfair.

That's directly referring to complaints on changes from the books though, not the things frequency was talking about.

And honestly, I think the things you bring up tread the same ground. For example Jaime's character. In terms of the show, they haven't really changed anything of what is known about him. I completely understand (and don't necessarily have a problem with ) discussions on

Spoiler

how it fits into the transition of his character later in the books

but in this medium we aren't far enough along yet. I for one am interested in seeing exactly how he is going to develop. But being upset at that at this point means you are upset because of what happens in the book. Which brings us back full circle.

 

[Emerson]

At least it's not Dexter.

Dexter is a case where nobody likes the show anymore, aside from one or two posters who occasionally come in and say "dunno what everyone's talking about, i love it!" No critics like it and the vast majority of people on GAF don't either. And while I've certainly been known to dump on that show, I also give it its fair due when it (occasionally) does something good.

Here we have a show that's a critical success, which is pretty universally loved by non-book readers and is increasingly criticized by book-readers. I'm pretty done with this argument so I'm not going to make any more accusations one way or the other. All I'll say is we don't see all these criticisms about "writing" and "direction" in the non-readers thread.

 

[Discotheque]

I dunno, I always found this show to be below the other stuff airing right now like:

Boardwalk Empire
Mad Men
Breaking Bad
even The Borgias

whether I was a book-reader or not that wouldn't change my opinion on the actual show in question.

Still it's a good deal better than Walking Dead and True Blood

 

[Deleted member 30609]

All I'll say is we don't see all these criticisms about "writing" and "direction" in the non-readers thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

 

[Emerson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

Do you have a better explanation? Or would you prefer to just say they all have low standards?

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Do you have a better explanation? Or would you prefer to just say they all have low standards?

What, the link doesn't explain it all?

 

[Deleted member 30609]

...

 

[Emerson]

What, the link doesn't explain it all?

I love that I'm criticized for not adding to quality conversation when I get mad at the book comparisons, when we have people responding with "sarcastic" posts "like" "this" and replying with links to tangentially-related Wikipedia articles.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

 

[Speevy]

Do you guys understand that the longer this discussion continues, the less attractive this thread becomes for fans of the show?

 

[AlimNassor]

the reason "many of us" are "losing our shit" is because our standards are probably higher than "many of you"

GOT is not competing with the books, it's competing with the other TV shows I watch. That's -- at the moment -- Mad Men and Breaking Bad.

Yup. Low standards, eh? Look who's talking. I feel bad for you. Honestly I do.

 

[AngryMoth]

Holding up the non-book thread and saying "hey, these guys all like it" does not somehow invalidate the well made points raised in here. I've seen very little in the way of actual rebuttals to the crtisisms of pacing, writing, etc.

 

[EktorPR]

Do you guys understand that the longer this discussion continues, the less attractive this thread becomes for fans of the show?

Nail on the head.

 

[frequency]

Can you give an example of this? I am asking honestly, it's a little hard to backtrack (especially since it's a lot of blocks of black, lol) but it doesn't seem to be a majority of the conversations.

No, I cannot. I really don't want to go back and look for examples based on a feeling.
I could be totally wrong, I admit that. Like I said, I could just have been misunderstanding or not getting the tone.

I haven't even really been part of the discussion here outside of a couple posts a week. I just felt like I was seeing a lot of it this week. It might be, as Rez said in another post, just a lot of people being like "this is so negative" and "I'm glad I haven't read the books" or something like that.

But it could just be a misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Big-E]

Do you guys understand that the longer this discussion continues, the less attractive this thread becomes for fans of the show?

So? We are not allowed to have diverging opinions in threads now? We should have two threads where one is only positive and the other is only negative? If you really like the show and think this discussion is stupid then prove your point and try to argue it. If no one wants to do that they can go to the other 3 threads devoted to ASOIAF/GOT.

 

[Speevy]

So? We are not allowed to have diverging opinions in threads now? We should have two threads where one is only positive and the other is only negative? If you really like the show and think this discussion is stupid then prove your point and try to argue it. If no one wants to do that they can go to the other 3 threads devoted to ASOIAF/GOT.

No, what you shouldn't have in this topic is arguing about which criticism is valid. That's useless discussion.

It's not on topic.

 

[Pecan1]

The only rebuttal necessary should be we gotta wait for things to wrap up,
the show still has plenty of time to wrap up and I feel like these next 3 eps are going to be awesome

I can not wait to see what goes on in ep8

Spoiler

the House of the Undying

the stuff that has happened with

Spoiler

Pyrat Pree

has been pretty cool so far so i don't think it will disappoint

also ep8

Spoiler

looks like were going to get to meet alot more wildlings this upcoming im espically excited to see

Spoiler

the Lord of Bones i think( the wildingling with the skull mask and armor

 

[frequency]

The only rebuttal necessary should be we gotta wait for things to wrap up,
the show still has plenty of time to wrap up and I feel like these next 3 eps are going to be awesome

I can not wait to see what goes on in ep8

Spoiler

the House of the Undying

the stuff that has happened with

Spoiler

Pyrat Pree

has been pretty cool so far so i don't think it will disappoint

also ep8

Spoiler

looks like were going to get to meet alot more wildlings this upcoming im espically excited to see

Spoiler

the Lord of Bones i think( the wildingling with the skull mask and armor

Well... with that logic, the same can be said about praise. Don't praise it until the season ends because something might happen later that "ruins" the entire season!

People should be able to say "I'm unhappy with this episode" even if the season isn't over. It's not really reasonable to expect people to not say anything because there might be something later in the season that makes everything better in retrospect.

 

[6.8]

Geez people let it go already.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Geez people let it go already.

what's supposed to be let go?

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

...

No, Rez. People feel sorry for you. You're speaking the truth! What is this? La la la, I can't hear you! Just let it go, we don't have low standards!! We love quality television where intruding music plays during a stretched out, gratuitous scene of Joffrey punishing prostitutes takes place. Where two drunk clumsy soldiers (which Westeros seems to have an abundance of) piss while their horses are spooked as Robb takes over the camp before a fade to black!

 

[Vyrance]

No, Rez. People feel sorry for you. You're speaking the truth! What is this? La la la, I can't hear you! Just let it go, we don't have low standards!! We love quality television where intruding music plays during a stretched out, gratuitous scene of Joffrey punishing prostitutes takes place. Where two drunk clumsy soldiers (which Westeros seems to have an abundance of) piss while their horses are spooked as Robb takes over the camp before a fade to black!

That Joffrey scene was strecthed out. I'm sure most people should know by now what kind of character Joffrey is. However, I did enjoy the two soldiers' banter. Also, if you're implying that the show isn't of a certain quality, then you do have high standards. Or I'm surprised you have't taken a bat to your television.

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

That Joffrey scene was strecthed out. I'm sure most people should know by now what kind of character Joffrey is. However, I did enjoy the two soldiers' banter. Also, if you're implying that the show isn't of a certain quality, then you do have high standards. Or I'm surprised you have't taken a bat to your television.

Ever heard of having standards for quality television? I'd say it's the people in denial that have low, altered standards biased by love, hype and enthusiasm for the source material. It's like the 14 year old that can't admit that his mom's birthday gift sucked because he'd feel bad.

 

[AngryMoth]

Ever heard of having standards for quality television? I'd say it's the people in denial that have low, altered standards biased by love, hype and enthusiasm for the source material. It's like the 14 year old that can't admit that his mom's birthday gift sucked because he'd feel bad.

...that's a little strong. While I agree the show's quality has not been where I'd like it to be this season its arrogant to assert that anyone who likes it has lower standards as if your opinion is objective fact.

 

[apana]

I can't believe I am saying this but we are going to need a third thread if this continues. Game of Thrones Season 2 unmarked spoiler thread.

 

[Big-E]

I can't believe I am saying this but we are going to need a third thread if this continues. Game of Thrones Season 2 unmarked spoiler thread.

This thread should have been unmarked from the start.

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

...that's a little strong. While I agree the show's quality has not been where I'd like it to be this season its arrogant to assert that anyone who likes it has lower standards as if your opinion is objective fact.

Thing is, most of you say things like "which problems?" when someone mentions the show has a lot of problems. Or ask for examples on valid criticism, when you know you only have to dig through your brain and not the thread to find flaws. Very few admit that this show is failing production wise, and the rest talk down on people that bring it up with posts that boil down to "You suck, stop whining nerd"

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Thing is, most of you say things like "which problems?" when someone mentions the show has a lot of problems. Or asks for examples on valid criticism, when they know they only have to dig through their brain and not the thread to find flaws. Very few admit that this show is failing production wise, and then talk down on people that bring it up with posts that boil down to "You suck, stop whining nerd"

an interesting, if flawed, theory for that bolded part.


What is failing "production wise"?

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

an interesting, if flawed, theory. What is failing "production wise"?

Hahahaha you're proving my point while quoting it.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

Hahahaha you're proving my point while quoting it.

I'm sure I am, but what is failing production wise?

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

I'm sure I am, but what is failing production wise?

I'm not putting the energy to reiterate what has already been said. If you truly don't know, you're proving my other point of arguing without having an argument.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

I'm not putting the energy to reiterate what has already been said. If you truly don't know, you're proving my other point of arguing without having an argument.

I'm asking you what you mean by production wise? I'm not arguing anything, I'm asking you for your explanation of your opinion about what production wise means and elaborate. nothing then? alrighty...

 

[JoJoShabadoo]

I'm asking you what you mean by production wise? I',m not arguing anything, I'm asking you for your opinion. nothing then? alrighty...

A torture scene ripped off from 2 Fast 2 Furious... Which did it better! We're just going in circles here, I don't need to say anything.

 

[NathanMcMahon]

A torture scene ripped of from 2 Fast 2 Furious... Which did it better! That's the only example I need to use. We're just going in circles here, I don't need to say anything.

I have no idea what that means so I'm not sure why that relates to the show "failing production wise". I haven't argued with you at all and the circles are because you won't or can't articulate what you mean by "failing production wise". I went back through your recent replies on this thread and couldn't find any examples of what you mean for that seeing as I may have missed something but it wasn't there that I could see. I was genuinely interested in that aspect but I get that you don't have anything to add to it that would make the statement more substantial.

 

[q_q]

That's directly referring to complaints on changes from the books though, not the things frequency was talking about.

And honestly, I think the things you bring up tread the same ground. For example Jaime's character. In terms of the show, they haven't really changed anything of what is known about him. I completely understand (and don't necessarily have a problem with ) discussions on

Spoiler

how it fits into the transition of his character later in the books

but in this medium we aren't far enough along yet. I for one am interested in seeing exactly how he is going to develop. But being upset at that at this point means you are upset because of what happens in the book. Which brings us back full circle.

Series:

Spoiler

But I'm not just talking about what happens to him later in the series. I'm talking about the person he is in the books even at the point of CoK. The Jaime in the books would not kill his cousin for no reason in such a brutal and cruel way and then be completely fine with it. We know this because of things that we find out about him later in the series, but it does not change the character as he is in CoK. Even before SoS, Jaime is not a monster who would kill anyone for no reason (which is how one of the writers described him in the behind the scenes feature for that episode).

Therefore it is fair to be upset about it at this point. Not because it's different from the way the books portray him, but because the way the books do it makes for a more compelling and complex character. That is a valid argument, it isn't just a whiny purist bitching about the writers changing x, y and z.