That's what I was thinking. I can picture it - right after she turns away from the throne seeing him down at the base of the stairs, smirking at her like he always does. Then he could burn away. Something really trippy.
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Game of Thrones - Season 2 - George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
- Start date
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That's what I was thinking. I can picture it - right after she turns away from the throne seeing him down at the base of the stairs, smirking at her like he always does. Then he could burn away. Something really trippy.
PhoenixDark
Banned
And instead of getting this (or any general adaption of it) we got...Jon walking around with Ygritte, getting lost for multiple episodes, getting captured, etc. What a waste
bengraven
Member
He'd need to be wearing his golden crown on his head still, imbedded in his burned skin, blood streaming down his face, maybe one eye popped out of the socket. He'd say "you need to wake the dragon" and laugh.
That's how GRRM would have wrote the scene at least.
It's not like Jon's scenes were all that hard to film. I don't recall anything budget defying happening in the book.
I think they needed a way to drag it out more than they needed to film it accurately.
I want this to have happened so bad. Imagination will have to suffice though.
I think they needed a way to drag it out more than they needed to film it accurately.
I want this to have happened so bad. Imagination will have to suffice though.
They could have made something more emotional of Jon killing Qhorin, but to be honest, he is not even important later on to justify more screen time. The important part of Jon story is Ygritte and that was the focus on the show. I'm not saying it wasn't dull, because it was. It was easily the most boring storyline in the two seasons we have, but seeing this as an adaptation I don't see the point on more Qhorin.
Or just do a crazy thing and don't show him in almost every episode. 8/10 was too much considering what they cut.
You can't possibly be saying what I think you're saying. Blasphemous!
Jon should be in 10/10 of the episodes.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This is still a spoiler because the books and the series don't have the same events, so you're spoiling the book.
WHAT?
Less... YOU!
I'm sorry
I can understand if people feel there's too much Jon. I feel there's too much Dany.
I didn't realize Jon was in 8/10 episodes this season. I guess I'm just so excited to see him at all and I always look forward to it so I never noticed he was in so many.
Also, TV show Jon wasted a lot of time just walking around being made fun of by Ygritte. I think people would like him much more if they had him develop under Qhorin's guidance.
I wonder if they set out to make it all Ygritte from the start or if they at some point seriously considered keeping the Jon & Qhorin dynamic, as in scripts being written and one or two different scenes being filmed. Sort of like they tried making the shadow baby more similar to the book but then changed it because it reportedly didn't work so well. Also like that interview where we got the reasoning behind Hot Pie and Arya not yelling names in that certain scene. I'd love a list of this stuff that also included people going over the discussions and limitations that led to the changes.
I really felt like they didn't do a good job with HOTU. :/I thought the stuff from the House of the Undying was alluding to how "winter is coming", and then we got that ending with the White Walkers.
They really fucked with his character development by cutting his parts into pieces.
Forsaken82
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
Eh, I'd say Dany and Robb's stories were more boring, and worse. At least we got some nice environments in the Jon scenes, and Rose Leslie was great as Ygritte. I can't think of anything good to say about Robb or Dany's stuff lol
Words are wind.
Anton Sugar
Member
Ugh, this is so depressing. Jon had a great arc in CoK.
Yes, but I can't complain too much.
There's still a lot more to come and I still think he was a great casting.
And at least we know what he's supposed to be. So I can just go on as though similar events happened off screen or something.
Steelyuhas
Member
Jon's arc was one of my only real series complaints about season 2. Robb's lack of development as a strong military leader and tactician was my other main complaint about season 2.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
There isn't enough jon snow.
Cornballer
Member
This is kind of off topic but...
So I did a google search on Kit Harington to see what else he's in. He's apparently in a new Silent Hill movie based on one of the games. He plays "Vincent". Someone spoil that for me. Does anything bad happen to that character in the game?
I don't need details. I don't want to google the plot of the game because I wouldn't be able to take graphic descriptions of violence. Silent Hill seems like a very violent series.
You are a bad person!
So I did a google search on Kit Harington to see what else he's in. He's apparently in a new Silent Hill movie based on one of the games. He plays "Vincent". Someone spoil that for me. Does anything bad happen to that character in the game?
I don't need details. I don't want to google the plot of the game because I wouldn't be able to take graphic descriptions of violence. Silent Hill seems like a very violent series.
You are a bad person!
-Pyromaniac-
Member
he's just so damn stylish!
I'm a jon/dany shipper. Lets make it happen. Their kids would be majestic if somehow they could have kids.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
you're BOTH just mad you're not mothers of dragons.
Also the next silent hill movie is a portrayal of silent hill 3 I believe, I loved that game. There is a character named Vincent in it, and
something bad does happen to him.
Steelyuhas
Member
Series spoiler
Dany and Jon shipping cannot happen because Dany is going to get murdered to hell by the Dornish. MAKE IT HAPPEN.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I should also mention that I'm a Littlefinger/Sansa shipper. Is their a ship for that yet? If not, it has just been created.
WHAT?
Less... YOU!
I'm sorry
It's just I can't understand Jons appeal. He is all duty and honor, like a Ned 2.0. Seriously, I find him so boring,
just like Ned
I found him to be much more interesting when reading aSoS. I actually liked reading his chapters.
(Dwd)
And just when I was rooting for him he just made all those stupid decisions.
Mike Works
Member
Just watched the finale, and really liked it. Just finished catching up in this thread, and really hated it. There are some legitimate complaints that some posters have made, but it's so inconceivably sad how many people can't divorce themselves from the source material and comprehend the switch in mediums, and the existence of a budget and limited scope of episodes. The argument CAN be made against HBO for limiting those two aspects, but no, it's pretty much always the fault of the writers/showrunners for not getting 1000+ pages into ten hours.
This then leads to WELL WE DIDN'T NEED THAT ROS SCENE OR THOSE DANY SCENE'S, which are two equally blind complaints given that:
A) There's no such thing as a Ros scene. Ros is in numerous scenes, but they're not hers. They're Littlefinger's, Joffrey's, Varys', etc. No one really gives a shit about Ros' character, but she's used as a way to connect characters, storylines, even parts of the map seamlessly. I love the idea that someone else mentioned earlier that she will (ASOS)
B) Dany didn't have much to do this season, but you had to keep her in the viewer's mind. She's arguably one of the 3 main characters of the show. Perhaps they could've found more for her to do in Qarth, but (series)
I appreciated that the showrunners tried to spice things up by having her dragons stolen, and I think most of the changes they made to Qarth were for the better.
This of course leads us to the House of the Undying, where innumerable people complained that they butchered the book by getting rid of all of the prophecies. Really? (series)
I know people were hoping for balls of the wall SFX of melting blue hearts or spoilery images of stuff we either already know about, or stuff we've all but had confirmed for us. Instead, the show gives us new imagery and prophecies, and an assload of book readers whine because they didn't get the old ones. It's laughable.
Anyway, I'm not even going to waste my time going over the Jon and Arya stuff beyond saying that the Jon complaints have some merit to them, but not much given that we don't know how season 3 is going to play out yet, and I would be able to dismiss the Arya complaints had the showrunners not made her kill some fat kid at the end of season 1. The resulting inconsistency is confusing, though I did really enjoy her new scenes with Tywin (ASOS)
As an aside, does anyone know for sure if the original actor who played The Mountain (Conan something) isn't coming back? I remember hearing that bridges weren't burnt there, but I found it interesting that they kept the new Mountain in the shadows and always wearing a helmet, and with limited dialogue throughout the entire season. If they brought Conan back for Season 3, I'm not sure if half of the audience will have noticed her was gone. But this is probably just wishful thinking on my behalf.
Also, that white dude on the horse was awesome.
This then leads to WELL WE DIDN'T NEED THAT ROS SCENE OR THOSE DANY SCENE'S, which are two equally blind complaints given that:
A) There's no such thing as a Ros scene. Ros is in numerous scenes, but they're not hers. They're Littlefinger's, Joffrey's, Varys', etc. No one really gives a shit about Ros' character, but she's used as a way to connect characters, storylines, even parts of the map seamlessly. I love the idea that someone else mentioned earlier that she will (ASOS)
go with Littlefinger to the Eyrie and get framed for Lysa's murder, which would have WAY more impact than "the musician did it." And of course when that musician got killed in season 1, people got pissy about that too, lacking any form of cognitive foresight that perhaps a better option might be presented in the future. Granted, if Ros ends up hanging out with Dany, that'd probably be pretty dumb.
B) Dany didn't have much to do this season, but you had to keep her in the viewer's mind. She's arguably one of the 3 main characters of the show. Perhaps they could've found more for her to do in Qarth, but (series)
it's not like her chapters in the books weren't dreadfully painful and boring to get through more than once or twice.
This of course leads us to the House of the Undying, where innumerable people complained that they butchered the book by getting rid of all of the prophecies. Really? (series)
We see Dany make it to Kings Landing/the Iron Throne. We see the throne room destroyed, it's ceiling gone; perhaps by dragons, perhaps by Others. It's snowing inside the room, perhaps indicating the damaging effects of winter, perhaps alluding to Jon Snow being on the iron throne. She almost touches the throne, but doesn't. Why not? She's called by someone, which leads her to leave and go beyond the Wall. And what calls her there? Her husband and child.
Anyway, I'm not even going to waste my time going over the Jon and Arya stuff beyond saying that the Jon complaints have some merit to them, but not much given that we don't know how season 3 is going to play out yet, and I would be able to dismiss the Arya complaints had the showrunners not made her kill some fat kid at the end of season 1. The resulting inconsistency is confusing, though I did really enjoy her new scenes with Tywin (ASOS)
Which will make what happens in Season 3/4 between him and Tyrion all the more impactful.
As an aside, does anyone know for sure if the original actor who played The Mountain (Conan something) isn't coming back? I remember hearing that bridges weren't burnt there, but I found it interesting that they kept the new Mountain in the shadows and always wearing a helmet, and with limited dialogue throughout the entire season. If they brought Conan back for Season 3, I'm not sure if half of the audience will have noticed her was gone. But this is probably just wishful thinking on my behalf.
Also, that white dude on the horse was awesome.
Robb won every single battle he fought in, captured Jaime Lannister, and made Tywin Lannister humbled in front of his bannermen. So far, his only potential undoings in terms of his campaign have had nothing to do with his military leading (Catelyn releasing his prize prisoner; Oona releasing his pants).
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
OH MY GOD!!!!!
Jon Snow and Shane Vendrell hanging out? I'm freaking out here. So awesome.
Steelyuhas
Member
A TV viewer has no idea why Robb went West in season 2, what he hoped to achieved. They were given zero context of the battle at the beginning of 'Garden of Bones' (episode 4), while in the book, it is considered a massive victory for the Starks.
Some simple stuff like a few war council scenes giving context to his actions included in Robb's arc this season instead of it looking like he was just chilling in a camp, not moving, with no plan to move or do anything would have done wonders to his arc.
We have to go deeper!
=Rate every character you can remember, based on their contributions to Season 2=
<Main>
Dany - Decent (due to a last minute improvement).
Jon - Bad. Waste of potential
Tyrion - Mostly good, great at a few moments.
Stannis/Melisandre/Davos - Started off poorly, but got very good soon enough.
Theon - Great (but his ending was only "decent"). Alfie needs some sort of award so his sister can't tease him anymore.
Bran - Decent.
Catelyn - Good (several great performances).
Arya - Good, but unfulfilling. Another waste of potential.
Cersei - Good + countless laughs = Great.
Sansa - Decent.
<Supporting>
Joffrey - Gold. Scene with Ros wasn't good, but everything else was great.
Robb - Boring (Bad).
Talisa - Boring but hot (So, a warmer kind of bad).
Roose Bolton - Decent I guess.
Jaime - Great for what he had.
Tywin - Great.
Lancel - Good.
Pod - Non-entity until the end. Came out slightly decent.
Pyromancer Hallyne - Great.
Brienne - Good, and getting better.
Balon - Decent.
Yara - Decent.
Dagmer - Good for his role, but I wish we could have had
Jaqen - A man was great.
Xaro Xhoan Daxos - Decent. Would have been better if he had been the richest man in Qarth.
Pyat Pree - Good first few episodes. Anticlimactic ending.
Quaithe - Forgettable.
Margaery - Good.
Loras - Decent but forgettable.
Bronn - Bronn/10.
Craster - Decent.
Jeor Mormont - Decent, for what time he had.
Qhorin - Just needed one more scene to be passable.
Jorah Mormont - Good, but not utilized.
The Mountain (new) - Bad, due to being completely untested.
Amory Lorch - Got the single biggest laugh of the season, so good enough.
Sam - Weak, but great ending obv.
Edd - Character hasn't been given a chance, but weak nonetheless.
Gendry - Only decent at best, since he kinda fell off the map.
Hot Pie - Hot. Pie.
Lommy - Hands not green enough.
Ros - Actually not so bad herself, but was present for a few problematic scenes.
Shae - Surprisingly good.
Ygritte - Good actress (and dat accent), but weak overall.
Varys - Great for what material he had.
Littlefinger - Decent at best. Get it together, Carcetti.
Pycelle - Good, for his screentime.
The Hound - Bad at first, good by the end of the season.
Doreah - Disappointing ending.
Irri - Will be missed. It is known.
Tommen - Needs more kittens.
Drogo Vision - Really good.
Baby Rhaego Vision - Good hair growth.
Osha - Good.
Rickon - Taught those walnuts an important lesson.
Hodor - Hodor.
<We hardly knew ye>
Renly - Great. A huge improvement over Season 1. Turns out he was right after all.
Luwin - No complaints.
Yoren - Ditto.
Rodrik - Ditto pt.2.
Spice King - Will be missed. Corrected spelling for generations to come.
<Animal Pals>
Summer - Barely there.
Shaggydog - Same.
Grey Wind - Prettay, prettay good. Best In Show of this season's direwolves.
Ghost - Bad dog. Left his master to the whims of the wildlings. Probably out eating pinecones or something else that dumb dogs do.
Dany's dragons - Drogon stood out, but the others need to tighten up their game.
That chicken Jaqen kicked - Solid stuntwork.
Zombie Horse - Decent screen presence.
An overall average of Season 2: Good.
Weakest links: Jon and Arya (due to missed potential). Everyone else is tough to seriously complain about, but those two are some big problems.
In a surprising outcome, Theon and Cersei were my MVPs. Stannis/Melisandre were the best new additions. Tyrion, it can be said, had the "easiest" role this season but Dinklage was great by the end. All of Joffrey's screentime (aside for the Ros scene) was amazing. House Lannister was definitely the best-handled part of this season.
Of course, just my personal opinions.
=Rate every character you can remember, based on their contributions to Season 2=
<Main>
Dany - Decent (due to a last minute improvement).
Jon - Bad. Waste of potential
Tyrion - Mostly good, great at a few moments.
Stannis/Melisandre/Davos - Started off poorly, but got very good soon enough.
Theon - Great (but his ending was only "decent"). Alfie needs some sort of award so his sister can't tease him anymore.
Bran - Decent.
Catelyn - Good (several great performances).
Arya - Good, but unfulfilling. Another waste of potential.
Cersei - Good + countless laughs = Great.
Sansa - Decent.
<Supporting>
Joffrey - Gold. Scene with Ros wasn't good, but everything else was great.
Robb - Boring (Bad).
Talisa - Boring but hot (So, a warmer kind of bad).
Roose Bolton - Decent I guess.
Jaime - Great for what he had.
Tywin - Great.
Lancel - Good.
Pod - Non-entity until the end. Came out slightly decent.
Pyromancer Hallyne - Great.
Brienne - Good, and getting better.
Balon - Decent.
Yara - Decent.
Dagmer - Good for his role, but I wish we could have had
Reek.
Xaro Xhoan Daxos - Decent. Would have been better if he had been the richest man in Qarth.
Pyat Pree - Good first few episodes. Anticlimactic ending.
Quaithe - Forgettable.
Margaery - Good.
Loras - Decent but forgettable.
Bronn - Bronn/10.
Craster - Decent.
Jeor Mormont - Decent, for what time he had.
Qhorin - Just needed one more scene to be passable.
Jorah Mormont - Good, but not utilized.
The Mountain (new) - Bad, due to being completely untested.
Amory Lorch - Got the single biggest laugh of the season, so good enough.
Sam - Weak, but great ending obv.
Edd - Character hasn't been given a chance, but weak nonetheless.
Gendry - Only decent at best, since he kinda fell off the map.
Hot Pie - Hot. Pie.
Lommy - Hands not green enough.
Ros - Actually not so bad herself, but was present for a few problematic scenes.
Shae - Surprisingly good.
Ygritte - Good actress (and dat accent), but weak overall.
Varys - Great for what material he had.
Littlefinger - Decent at best. Get it together, Carcetti.
Pycelle - Good, for his screentime.
The Hound - Bad at first, good by the end of the season.
Doreah - Disappointing ending.
Irri - Will be missed. It is known.
Tommen - Needs more kittens.
Drogo Vision - Really good.
Baby Rhaego Vision - Good hair growth.
Osha - Good.
Rickon - Taught those walnuts an important lesson.
Hodor - Hodor.
<We hardly knew ye>
Renly - Great. A huge improvement over Season 1. Turns out he was right after all.
Luwin - No complaints.
Yoren - Ditto.
Rodrik - Ditto pt.2.
Spice King - Will be missed. Corrected spelling for generations to come.
<Animal Pals>
Summer - Barely there.
Shaggydog - Same.
Grey Wind - Prettay, prettay good. Best In Show of this season's direwolves.
Ghost - Bad dog. Left his master to the whims of the wildlings. Probably out eating pinecones or something else that dumb dogs do.
Dany's dragons - Drogon stood out, but the others need to tighten up their game.
That chicken Jaqen kicked - Solid stuntwork.
Zombie Horse - Decent screen presence.
An overall average of Season 2: Good.
Weakest links: Jon and Arya (due to missed potential). Everyone else is tough to seriously complain about, but those two are some big problems.
In a surprising outcome, Theon and Cersei were my MVPs. Stannis/Melisandre were the best new additions. Tyrion, it can be said, had the "easiest" role this season but Dinklage was great by the end. All of Joffrey's screentime (aside for the Ros scene) was amazing. House Lannister was definitely the best-handled part of this season.
Of course, just my personal opinions.
Cornballer
Member
As far as I know, we've never heard anything from HBO about recasting the role (what the reason was, how they got along with the actor, etc...), so it's tough to say where they stand. Conan Stevens mentioned in his blog that he'd be willing to come back for S3. It seems highly unlikely that they would switch back to him, but stranger things have happened.
Inconceivably sad, really? Also, none of my major complaints are budget related. Zero. It would have cost them 0 additional dollars to let Arya keep her fierceness, to let Jon have decent dialog with the Half-hand, to stop giving all the Hound's dialog to Littlefinger, to let Littlefinger be a subtle player of the game, instead of him stupidly confronting the Queen, to for the love of god let Cat and Robb know Theon "killed" Bran and Rickon so their idiotic, balance of power-shifting decisions have proper motivation. Robb's marriage and a free King-slayer are kind of important. The show has these events happen as the capricious whims of improperly developed characters!
Stannis wasn't in enough of the show to screw up too badly, and the gist of Tyrion's character arc is maintained. Theon was the only arc done well, other than the fact they screwed up the ending of it. Every other important storyline was fucked up.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
You've got it pretty much right.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I think it's too early to say that. My faith is shaken, but at least going forward it has to be incredibly hard to fuck up ASOS. Of course of they somehow manage that feat then calling them hacks would be way too nice.
Edit: then again they really did butcher the hell out of Jon
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Fantastic summary, Hokuten! I'd move Tyrion higher and Theon lower, but more or less exactly agreed.
My top (rarely if ever let me down, owned every scene):
Tyrion
Cersei
Varys <-- very underrated performances this season.
Tywin
Theon
Stannis
Sansa<-- as are hers
My acceptable (fantastic scenes with a few regrettable performances):
Catelyn Stark
Brienn
Joffrey ("cartoonish" comes to mind, but that's GRRM's fault)
Jaime
Littlefinger
Disapppointing (this list is no accident):
Jon
Dany
Rob
Arya
Special Mention, for under-use through no fault of the actor:
Jaquen
The Hound <-- fucking redeemed by the end of the season
Ser Jorah
My top (rarely if ever let me down, owned every scene):
Tyrion
Cersei
Varys <-- very underrated performances this season.
Tywin
Theon
Stannis
Sansa<-- as are hers
My acceptable (fantastic scenes with a few regrettable performances):
Catelyn Stark
Brienn
Joffrey ("cartoonish" comes to mind, but that's GRRM's fault)
Jaime
Littlefinger
Disapppointing (this list is no accident):
Jon
Dany
Rob
Arya
Special Mention, for under-use through no fault of the actor:
Jaquen
The Hound <-- fucking redeemed by the end of the season
Ser Jorah
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
I think these criticisms are valid.
Cornballer
Member
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
They should bring him back to play someone else
Having read the entire No Book Spoiler thread over the course of the season I can safely post that almost none of the TV viewers had any idea Robb was moving West or continued to do so for the entire season. Most think he's been moving towards King's Landing the entire time.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Perhaps because there wasn't a single scene of him discussing strategy, or filling in viewers on the stage of the war. I was quite excited to get more Robb in S2 as well, and interested in how the writers would handle it. Sadly they completely dropped the ball imo
It's not like a strategy meeting in Robb's camp or a decent Jon/Qhorin getting chased through the wilderness scene would have required a lot of screen time.
One 5 minute scene for Robb, maybe another 5 minute scene later showing the aftermath.
15 minutes of screentime for a decent chase if it were edited properly.
So 25 minutes total. I'm sure there were 25 total minutes of Ros/semen-wiping/Ygritte ass-grinding/richest man in Qarth scenes that could have easily been cut to make room for the shit that actually mattered.
Also, fuck the unenforced rules. I'm going to be posting in the No Book Spoiler thread next season even as a reader. This thread is useless for discussing the tv show as a tv show most of the time. Sorry, Cornballer. I can promise you I won't even give the first hint of a spoiler. But I'm going to be using that thread to discuss the tv show on its own merits.
One 5 minute scene for Robb, maybe another 5 minute scene later showing the aftermath.
15 minutes of screentime for a decent chase if it were edited properly.
So 25 minutes total. I'm sure there were 25 total minutes of Ros/semen-wiping/Ygritte ass-grinding/richest man in Qarth scenes that could have easily been cut to make room for the shit that actually mattered.
Also, fuck the unenforced rules. I'm going to be posting in the No Book Spoiler thread next season even as a reader. This thread is useless for discussing the tv show as a tv show most of the time. Sorry, Cornballer. I can promise you I won't even give the first hint of a spoiler. But I'm going to be using that thread to discuss the tv show on its own merits.
Chuckie
Member
I must say I think I agree with all of those.
Steelyuhas
Member
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