Just watched the finale, and really liked it. Just finished catching up in this thread, and really hated it. There are some legitimate complaints that some posters have made, but it's so inconceivably sad how many people can't divorce themselves from the source material and comprehend the switch in mediums, and the existence of a budget and limited scope of episodes. The argument CAN be made against HBO for limiting those two aspects, but no, it's pretty much always the fault of the writers/showrunners for not getting 1000+ pages into ten hours.
This then leads to WELL WE DIDN'T NEED THAT ROS SCENE OR THOSE DANY SCENE'S, which are two equally blind complaints given that:
A) There's no such thing as a Ros scene. Ros is in numerous scenes, but they're not hers. They're Littlefinger's, Joffrey's, Varys', etc. No one really gives a shit about Ros' character, but she's used as a way to connect characters, storylines, even parts of the map seamlessly. I love the idea that someone else mentioned earlier that she will (ASOS)go with Littlefinger to the Eyrie and get framed for Lysa's murder, which would have WAY more impact than "the musician did it." And of course when that musician got killed in season 1, people got pissy about that too, lacking any form of cognitive foresight that perhaps a better option might be presented in the future. Granted, if Ros ends up hanging out with Dany, that'd probably be pretty dumb.
B) Dany didn't have much to do this season, but you had to keep her in the viewer's mind. She's arguably one of the 3 main characters of the show. Perhaps they could've found more for her to do in Qarth, but (series)I appreciated that the showrunners tried to spice things up by having her dragons stolen, and I think most of the changes they made to Qarth were for the better.it's not like her chapters in the books weren't dreadfully painful and boring to get through more than once or twice.
This of course leads us to the House of the Undying, where innumerable people complained that they butchered the book by getting rid of all of the prophecies. Really? (series)I know people were hoping for balls of the wall SFX of melting blue hearts or spoilery images of stuff we either already know about, or stuff we've all but had confirmed for us. Instead, the show gives us new imagery and prophecies, and an assload of book readers whine because they didn't get the old ones. It's laughable.We see Dany make it to Kings Landing/the Iron Throne. We see the throne room destroyed, it's ceiling gone; perhaps by dragons, perhaps by Others. It's snowing inside the room, perhaps indicating the damaging effects of winter, perhaps alluding to Jon Snow being on the iron throne. She almost touches the throne, but doesn't. Why not? She's called by someone, which leads her to leave and go beyond the Wall. And what calls her there? Her husband and child.
Anyway, I'm not even going to waste my time going over the Jon and Arya stuff beyond saying that the Jon complaints have some merit to them, but not much given that we don't know how season 3 is going to play out yet, and I would be able to dismiss the Arya complaints had the showrunners not made her kill some fat kid at the end of season 1. The resulting inconsistency is confusing, though I did really enjoy her new scenes with Tywin (ASOS)Which will make what happens in Season 3/4 between him and Tyrion all the more impactful.
I know people were hoping for balls of the wall SFX of melting blue hearts or spoilery images of stuff we either already know about, or stuff we've all but had confirmed for us. Instead, the show gives us new imagery and prophecies, and an assload of book readers whine because they didn't get the old ones. It's laughable.
Yeah, Jon's arc was completely butchered.
At this point, it's pretty clear that the showrunners are hacks. Not quite Lindeloff or Kurtzman and Orci level hacks, but not more than a tier or two above.
My argument was more of a catch-all to people who fell under a veil of ignorance when it came to their book-related complaints. If you presented your opinion in a normal way, saying you were disappointed that your favorite scene from the books wasn't in the show, then that's not whining. My rant was blanketing the people who couldn't rationally understand why certain changes were made. You, on the other hand seem to understand that shooting THOTU page-for-page of how it was in the book would have been unpractical, yet you still wanted at least some of it in there, and it wasn't. That's fine. I mean, one of the coolest images from the books is (ASOS)While I agree with most of your post I feel I need to reply to this part because I was one of the ones complaining.
I merely expressed my disappointment about what I considered one of the best scenes in the book. I did this in a very normal way. Why is this considered "whining"?
It was a scene I was looking forward too. I knew they would adjust it and not put all 20+ visions in it, ofcourse. But getting none of those 20+? Yeah that was disappointing for me. Why that is whining, I do not understand.
My argument was more of a catch-all to people who fell under a veil of ignorance when it came to their book-related complaints. If you presented your opinion in a normal way, saying you were disappointed that your favorite scene from the books wasn't in the show, then that's not whining. My rant was blanketing the people who couldn't rationally understand why certain changes were made. You, on the other hand seem to understand that shooting THOTU page-for-page of how it was in the book would have been unpractical, yet you still wanted at least some of it in there, and it wasn't. That's fine. I mean, one of the coolest images from the books is (ASOS)The foreshadowing to the Red Wedding, but we're going to see that next season anyway. Aside from that, I'm not sure if I would want to see Dany's childhood home (boring) nor 4 midgets raping a woman (err... not boring?). The other visions with Rhaegar and Aerys could've worked, but at the same time the show has barely paid any focus to those characters (aside from people continually referencing Jaime as the kingslayer), so I'm not sure how well they would have fit. I DO on the other hand think there was room for the prophecies the Undying present (three treasons you will know, etc.), but then again I never understood why the Undying were telling her prophecies of what would happen to her in the future before attacking her. If they knew these prophecies would happen to her, then obviously they weren't going to be able to kill her... unless I'm misremembering something here.
My main complaint from THOTU was after the visions. I thought the way Pyatt Pree died was constructed very poorly; we see him get stabbed in the chest in one of the earlier episodes, but that's okay, it was just a vision. Fast forward to Dany in chains, the dragon starts getting aggressive and Dany gets a threatening look in her eyes and says some dragon word, so what does Pyatt do? Gets rid of his clones and leans down and looks at the dragons. Then they shoot fire on him and he dies. Could've been constructed much better than that.
It's just I can't understand Jons appeal. He is all duty and honor, like a Ned 2.0. Seriously, I find him so boring,. His story is kind of interesting, mainly because of the wall and all the north stuff, but I can't stand him. (Asos)just like NedI found him to be much more interesting when reading aSoS. I actually liked reading his chapters.
(Dwd)And just when I was rooting for him he just made all those stupid decisions.
Arya not killing at the end of the season? SMH.
The showrunners must have skipped over the Arya chapters while reading the series.
seriesShe kills someone in every book. Stableboy -> random guard -> the Tickler and his squire -> Night's Watch deserter in Braavos -> random insurance agent.
That progression is like... the entire point of her character.
Having read the entire No Book Spoiler thread over the course of the season I can safely post that almost none of the TV viewers had any idea Robb was moving West or continued to do so for the entire season. Most think he's been moving towards King's Landing the entire time.
Jon Snow and Boyd Crowder?!
The only vision I really missed from the House of Undying wasthe Rhaegar and Lyanna one. Especially since they already sort of introduced the whole Azor Ahai/PWWP angle with Melisandre and Stannis. But I understand why they cut all of those out.
(All books + popular fan theory)If the R+L=Jon theory pans out to be true I really don't see how they will possibly approach it in the show and expect anyone to even remotely remember who Lyanna or Rhaegar even are. They've barely been mentioned in the show, and we didn't get any of Ned's flashbacks that hint at the whole "Promise me, Ned" angle. It will be really weird for someone to randomly show up in the 7th season and be like "oh yeah Jon your parents were blah" with essentially none of the clues that have set that up.
10 more months of the GAF GoT cycle before S3 starts :/
Jon is a much less rigid form of Ned in that he is concerned with honor but nowhere near as much. Jon does have a similar problem judging people, in that he assumes people are just as smart as him. Part of the story, or the main part if you will, is watching Dany and Jon's leadership skills develop over time.
Just watched the finale, and really liked it. Just finished catching up in this thread, and really hated it. There are some legitimate complaints that some posters have made, but it's so inconceivably sad how many people can't divorce themselves from the source material and comprehend the switch in mediums, and the existence of a budget and limited scope of episodes. The argument CAN be made against HBO for limiting those two aspects, but no, it's pretty much always the fault of the writers/showrunners for not getting 1000+ pages into ten hours.
This then leads to WELL WE DIDN'T NEED THAT ROS SCENE OR THOSE DANY SCENE'S, which are two equally blind complaints given that:
A) There's no such thing as a Ros scene. Ros is in numerous scenes, but they're not hers. They're Littlefinger's, Joffrey's, Varys', etc. No one really gives a shit about Ros' character, but she's used as a way to connect characters, storylines, even parts of the map seamlessly. I love the idea that someone else mentioned earlier that she will (ASOS)go with Littlefinger to the Eyrie and get framed for Lysa's murder, which would have WAY more impact than "the musician did it." And of course when that musician got killed in season 1, people got pissy about that too, lacking any form of cognitive foresight that perhaps a better option might be presented in the future. Granted, if Ros ends up hanging out with Dany, that'd probably be pretty dumb.
B) Dany didn't have much to do this season, but you had to keep her in the viewer's mind. She's arguably one of the 3 main characters of the show. Perhaps they could've found more for her to do in Qarth, but (series)I appreciated that the showrunners tried to spice things up by having her dragons stolen, and I think most of the changes they made to Qarth were for the better.it's not like her chapters in the books weren't dreadfully painful and boring to get through more than once or twice.
This of course leads us to the House of the Undying, where innumerable people complained that they butchered the book by getting rid of all of the prophecies. Really? (series)I know people were hoping for balls of the wall SFX of melting blue hearts or spoilery images of stuff we either already know about, or stuff we've all but had confirmed for us. Instead, the show gives us new imagery and prophecies, and an assload of book readers whine because they didn't get the old ones. It's laughable.We see Dany make it to Kings Landing/the Iron Throne. We see the throne room destroyed, it's ceiling gone; perhaps by dragons, perhaps by Others. It's snowing inside the room, perhaps indicating the damaging effects of winter, perhaps alluding to Jon Snow being on the iron throne. She almost touches the throne, but doesn't. Why not? She's called by someone, which leads her to leave and go beyond the Wall. And what calls her there? Her husband and child.
Anyway, I'm not even going to waste my time going over the Jon and Arya stuff beyond saying that the Jon complaints have some merit to them, but not much given that we don't know how season 3 is going to play out yet, and I would be able to dismiss the Arya complaints had the showrunners not made her kill some fat kid at the end of season 1. The resulting inconsistency is confusing, though I did really enjoy her new scenes with Tywin (ASOS)Which will make what happens in Season 3/4 between him and Tyrion all the more impactful.
As an aside, does anyone know for sure if the original actor who played The Mountain (Conan something) isn't coming back? I remember hearing that bridges weren't burnt there, but I found it interesting that they kept the new Mountain in the shadows and always wearing a helmet, and with limited dialogue throughout the entire season. If they brought Conan back for Season 3, I'm not sure if half of the audience will have noticed her was gone. But this is probably just wishful thinking on my behalf.
Also, that white dude on the horse was awesome.
Robb won every single battle he fought in, captured Jaime Lannister, and made Tywin Lannister humbled in front of his bannermen. So far, his only potential undoings in terms of his campaign have had nothing to do with his military leading (Catelyn releasing his prize prisoner; Oona releasing his pants).
Bad stuff happens to everybody in Silent Hill, hah.
Thanks. It's a horror movie based on a horror game. I guess I should expect bad things to happen to everyone.Also the next silent hill movie is a portrayal of silent hill 3 I believe, I loved that game. There is a character named Vincent in it, andBut in the movie he is playing her boyfriend apparently? Which isn't what he was in the game, so who knows what they're doing.something bad does happen to him.
Dany is gross.you're BOTH just mad you're not mothers of dragons.
I like characters like Ned a lot. Honourable and dutiful. So maybe that's why I like Jon so much. He does seem the most similar to Ned.It's just I can't understand Jons appeal. He is all duty and honor, like a Ned 2.0. Seriously, I find him so boring,. His story is kind of interesting, mainly because of the wall and all the north stuff, but I can't stand him. (Asos)just like NedI found him to be much more interesting when reading aSoS. I actually liked reading his chapters.
(Dwd)And just when I was rooting for him he just made all those stupid decisions.
(All books + popular fan theory)If the R+L=Jon theory pans out to be true I really don't see how they will possibly approach it in the show and expect anyone to even remotely remember who Lyanna or Rhaegar even are. They've barely been mentioned in the show, and we didn't get any of Ned's flashbacks that hint at the whole "Promise me, Ned" angle. It will be really weird for someone to randomly show up in the 7th season and be like "oh yeah Jon your parents were blah" with essentially none of the clues that have set that up.
10 more months of the GAF GoT cycle before S3 starts :/
ludicrous criticisms of the show from book purists who could not possibly ever be satisfied --> fan casting --> valid criticisms of the show --> fan casting --> unmarked spoilers --> fan casting --> news from Cornballer --> fan casting --> praise of the show --> fan casting
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Jon Snow and Boyd Crowder?!
But that's the thing.. it doesn't matter which way he's heading. That context isn't important to the on-screen action and it would do nothing to make the show better.
The TV show is NOT meant to follow the book -- it's entire point is to entertain non-readers who vastly outnumber readers. Your average viewer doesn't care what direction he's heading or need to know his exact war plans. Ygritte is a character that sticks around beyond this season. If you're a viewer, you'd do well to be further introduced to her and to start to like her more than to Qhorin who will be dying soon. How can you not realize the necessity of this change?
People claim certain things wouldn't affect the budget at all. Well that's not true. Every change affects budget. Script rewrites aren't cheap -- this is not book writing where oh well, let GRRM take as long as he wants... it'll come out when it comes out... no. It has to be done and ready and it has to be filmed and you have to move on. There is no room to budge. Certain actors undoubtedly have clauses in their contract which require more screen time than others. Littlefinger has had a storied history on HBO so it makes total sense that he might get dialogue from another character/actor who is less of an overall focal point.
I wish some of you could take a step back... it's crazy to me how much tunnel vision exists in this thread.
Snot Boogie from The Wire got more character development than Qhorin Half-Hand
Goggins needs to get in on this show. Nothing that good could ever happen though. Life just isn't fair that way.
He's on a better show already.
Comments on changes this season. I'm just marking the whole thing as spoilers through ASOS:I agree that Robb and Jon's stories (especially the Jon and Qhorin relationship) took some damage this season, though I would hardly go so far "butchered". I think their goal with Jon is to sow doubt in viewers about his loyalty to the Watch, since we're no longer privvy to his internal monologues in which he questions himself. It does change his character to be less strong and more conflicted, since his conflict now has to be outwardly portrayed, but I at least understand the logic behind it. Still, less Ygritte and more Qhorin would've been better when they have a while season to develop Ygritte.
The Robb/Catelyn changes are harder to justify. There was no reason not to just cut the scene where Theon kills the ravens and have Robb learn of his brothers deaths normally. Catelyn's actions, while still understandable, are much less defensible now, and Robb I think we just have to accept as being rewritten as a romantic.
The complaints I don't understand are the Arya ones. Her scenes with Tywin are great and added to her character and the events that lead to her increasing violence (weasel soup/aiding Roose in capturing Harrenhal) haven't happened yet. That hotline is being stretched out, and there's no reason why she couldn't still take up a more violent role in her story with the Brotherhood, who I'm guessing are being rewritten to aid in the fall of Harrenhal with Arya's help. Some of you seem to want her to just be completely consumed by rage already, when that really shouldn't happen until after the RE when she's reunited with Needle (which some people seem to be forgetting doesn't happen until the end of book 3). The Tickle scene will be missed, but I'm sure something will be written in its place.
And of course, all this led up to a rather anti-climatic finale that didn't really give viewers an idea of what comes next. In S1's finale, Arya heads for the Wall. In S2's finale, Arya heads...where exactly? I know because I've read the book, but what would a regular viewer think? In similar light, Robb spends the entire season wandering around camp (outside of a battle shown off screen), then gets married. He goes from a battle commanding king to an idealist romantic - and the romance doesn't even seem genuine/interesting
And of course, all this led up to a rather anti-climatic finale that didn't really give viewers an idea of what comes next. In S1's finale, Arya heads for the Wall. In S2's finale, Arya heads...where exactly? I know because I've read the book, but what would a regular viewer think? In similar light, Robb spends the entire season wandering around camp (outside of a battle shown off screen), then gets married. He goes from a battle commanding king to an idealist romantic - and the romance doesn't even seem genuine/interesting
Yes.I thought Arya said she was going to find Robb and Cat.
Yes.
Robb's story arc was terrible in season 2. Won't find many people disagreeing with that.
10 more months of the GAF GoT cycle before S3 starts :/
ludicrous criticisms of the show from book purists who could not possibly ever be satisfied --> fan casting --> valid criticisms of the show --> fan casting --> unmarked spoilers --> fan casting --> news from Cornballer --> fan casting --> praise of the show --> fan casting
Lather, rinse, repeat.
what?
Really? out of Robb, Jon, Dany I really think his was the best considering how shallow his arc was in book 2.
what?
Really? out of Robb, Jon, Dany I really think his was the best considering how shallow his arc was in book 2.