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Game of Thrones - Season 2 - George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter Cornballer
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Arya not killing at the end of the season? SMH.
The showrunners must have skipped over the Arya chapters while reading the series.
series
That progression is like... the entire point of her character.
The showrunners must have skipped over the Arya chapters while reading the series.
series
She kills someone in every book. Stableboy -> random guard -> the Tickler and his squire -> Night's Watch deserter in Braavos -> random insurance agent.
That progression is like... the entire point of her character.
To put it bluntly, the show runners are going to need to grow some balls and cut characters from multiple episodes when characters have no advancement in their plot. Even the "main" ones. I will not be able to handle 30 episodes of series
This show can not continue to thrive with check in scenes that only deprive scenes for other characters. If a character has 5 POV's in a 70 chapter book, they shouldn't have a fourth of the show time.
Edit: More talking about Dany here and her ACoK story. I realize Robb had 0 POV's.
Dany in mereen.
Edit: More talking about Dany here and her ACoK story. I realize Robb had 0 POV's.
Chuckie
Member
While I agree with most of your post I feel I need to reply to this part because I was one of the ones complaining.
I merely expressed my disappointment about what I considered one of the best scenes in the book. I did this in a very normal way. Why is this considered "whining"?
It was a scene I was looking forward too. I knew they would adjust it and not put all 20+ visions in it, ofcourse. But getting none of those 20+? Yeah that was disappointing for me. Why that is whining, I do not understand.
Rodney McKay
Member
Really didn't like this season for the most part, but I couldn't make it through the second book either. I loved the first season, read the first book, started the second book and was incredibly disappointed with it.
I think I might be the wrong audience for this series post-season/book 1.
In season one I cared about so many so many of the characters and had such an interest in what was going on. It had a great momentum to it that kept me wanting to find out more. Every episode ended in a way that made me want to see the next episode as soon as possible. At the end the king is dead, Stark is dead, Lanister's took the throne, a huge war with the other heirs has started, Sansa is basically held captive, arya and the king's bastard are escaping, Jaime is captured, dragons are back (!!!), and the watch is going to head north to find Jon's uncle (I think). Just pure insanity and I couldn't wait to see what happens next.
Season/book two just felt like instead of having more things happen in the story, it just deals with what the stuff that happened in book one, if that makes any sense. It feels like nothing happened this season, or at least nothing as dramatic as what happened in the first season. Some battles got fought, people got captured and were let go/escaped, Robb got married, Jon bumbled around in the snow like an idiot, Daenerys' whole adventure was the definition of a time waster, Arya got caught and eventually escaped, Jaime had nothing to do, etc. I just felt that there was so much less progression and momentum in this season.
Tyrion's story was one of the few that felt like it kept the energy from the last season. Right away he was firing people, hatching clever schemes, and later on created the plan that saved the city. Winterfell got messed up, but that whole storyline is so far removed from everything else that it was hard to care much about it. Meister Luvin's death was the only thing that made me sad.
The evil shadow monster that Melisandra birthed was awesome, but then it never showed up again. Maybe I was overestimating the power of dark magic shadow demons, but I thought it would kill the whole army!
Maybe I just preferred the political backstabbings and dark secrets of the first season to the all-out-war of this season. The scope was also increased so much and I miss the closer character moments.
I guess the worst thing is that I'm not excited at all for the next season. The Zombie Army isn't interesting to me at all; Gee, I wonder if most sides will put aside their differences and fight this common foe eventually, I bet dragons would be real useful against those guys! (given how slow things seem to be progressing it will be 8 seasons before we ever get to that point.)
I think I might be the wrong audience for this series post-season/book 1.
In season one I cared about so many so many of the characters and had such an interest in what was going on. It had a great momentum to it that kept me wanting to find out more. Every episode ended in a way that made me want to see the next episode as soon as possible. At the end the king is dead, Stark is dead, Lanister's took the throne, a huge war with the other heirs has started, Sansa is basically held captive, arya and the king's bastard are escaping, Jaime is captured, dragons are back (!!!), and the watch is going to head north to find Jon's uncle (I think). Just pure insanity and I couldn't wait to see what happens next.
Season/book two just felt like instead of having more things happen in the story, it just deals with what the stuff that happened in book one, if that makes any sense. It feels like nothing happened this season, or at least nothing as dramatic as what happened in the first season. Some battles got fought, people got captured and were let go/escaped, Robb got married, Jon bumbled around in the snow like an idiot, Daenerys' whole adventure was the definition of a time waster, Arya got caught and eventually escaped, Jaime had nothing to do, etc. I just felt that there was so much less progression and momentum in this season.
Tyrion's story was one of the few that felt like it kept the energy from the last season. Right away he was firing people, hatching clever schemes, and later on created the plan that saved the city. Winterfell got messed up, but that whole storyline is so far removed from everything else that it was hard to care much about it. Meister Luvin's death was the only thing that made me sad.
The evil shadow monster that Melisandra birthed was awesome, but then it never showed up again. Maybe I was overestimating the power of dark magic shadow demons, but I thought it would kill the whole army! Maybe I just preferred the political backstabbings and dark secrets of the first season to the all-out-war of this season. The scope was also increased so much and I miss the closer character moments.
I guess the worst thing is that I'm not excited at all for the next season. The Zombie Army isn't interesting to me at all; Gee, I wonder if most sides will put aside their differences and fight this common foe eventually, I bet dragons would be real useful against those guys! (given how slow things seem to be progressing it will be 8 seasons before we ever get to that point.)
Andvary
Member
I totally agree with you.
Mike Works
Member
My argument was more of a catch-all to people who fell under a veil of ignorance when it came to their book-related complaints. If you presented your opinion in a normal way, saying you were disappointed that your favorite scene from the books wasn't in the show, then that's not whining. My rant was blanketing the people who couldn't rationally understand why certain changes were made. You, on the other hand seem to understand that shooting THOTU page-for-page of how it was in the book would have been unpractical, yet you still wanted at least some of it in there, and it wasn't. That's fine. I mean, one of the coolest images from the books is (ASOS)
The foreshadowing to the Red Wedding, but we're going to see that next season anyway. Aside from that, I'm not sure if I would want to see Dany's childhood home (boring) nor 4 midgets raping a woman (err... not boring?). The other visions with Rhaegar and Aerys could've worked, but at the same time the show has barely paid any focus to those characters (aside from people continually referencing Jaime as the kingslayer), so I'm not sure how well they would have fit. I DO on the other hand think there was room for the prophecies the Undying present (three treasons you will know, etc.), but then again I never understood why the Undying were telling her prophecies of what would happen to her in the future before attacking her. If they knew these prophecies would happen to her, then obviously they weren't going to be able to kill her... unless I'm misremembering something here.
My main complaint from THOTU was after the visions. I thought the way Pyatt Pree died was constructed very poorly; we see him get stabbed in the chest in one of the earlier episodes, but that's okay, it was just a vision. Fast forward to Dany in chains, the dragon starts getting aggressive and Dany gets a threatening look in her eyes and says some dragon word, so what does Pyatt do? Gets rid of his clones and leans down and looks at the dragons. Then they shoot fire on him and he dies. Could've been constructed much better than that.
Chuckie
Member
We cool
About those visions: (ASOS spoilers)
Midgets would have been awkward as hell
Dany's childhood indeed boring and confusing
Aerys; Might have been confusing, because he is indeed not referenced enough
Rhaegar+woman and babe: Now this one I wanted to see. 'For him is the song of ice and fire' It could have been a cool mystery also for non-book readers.... You could have had Dany say: 'Rhaegar?'
RW: I would have loved some horrorlike scenario but making it very unclear if it prophecises a 'Wolf' becoming a King (what I originally thought when reading) or actually the RW
The prophecies of the Undying: Like you said, should have been there.
Dany's childhood indeed boring and confusing
Aerys; Might have been confusing, because he is indeed not referenced enough
Rhaegar+woman and babe: Now this one I wanted to see. 'For him is the song of ice and fire' It could have been a cool mystery also for non-book readers.... You could have had Dany say: 'Rhaegar?'
RW: I would have loved some horrorlike scenario but making it very unclear if it prophecises a 'Wolf' becoming a King (what I originally thought when reading) or actually the RW
The prophecies of the Undying: Like you said, should have been there.
The death of the Warlock was indeed a bit laughable. What a dumbass.
Mike Works
Member
One thing I did appreciate with the show's changes is that all of the new visions were seemingly related to Dany. (SERIES)
Perhaps she will never make it to the Iron Throne (or even fucking Westeros at GRRM's damn pace), but there's a good chance she could, a good chance she could cross the wall, and of course Drogo and her unborn child were very specific to her. As neat as The Red Wedding vision is in the book, it's there more for the convention of foretelling what was going to happen in the book; Dany had no connection whatsoever to the Red Wedding, so it's kind of puzzling that it would be there.
Jon is a much less rigid form of Ned in that he is concerned with honor but nowhere near as much. Jon does have a similar problem judging people, in that he assumes people are just as smart as him. Part of the story, or the main part if you will, is watching Dany and Jon's leadership skills develop over time.
She does a lot more than that in just acok, weasel soup and the fight with amory lorchs men both include people she kills or maims. Did she even leave harrenhal with a weapon?
10 more months of the GAF GoT cycle before S3 starts :/
ludicrous criticisms of the show from book purists who could not possibly ever be satisfied --> fan casting --> valid criticisms of the show --> fan casting --> unmarked spoilers --> fan casting --> news from Cornballer --> fan casting --> praise of the show --> fan casting
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Jon Snow and Boyd Crowder?!
ludicrous criticisms of the show from book purists who could not possibly ever be satisfied --> fan casting --> valid criticisms of the show --> fan casting --> unmarked spoilers --> fan casting --> news from Cornballer --> fan casting --> praise of the show --> fan casting
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Jon Snow and Boyd Crowder?!
But that's the thing.. it doesn't matter which way he's heading. That context isn't important to the on-screen action and it would do nothing to make the show better.
The TV show is NOT meant to follow the book -- it's entire point is to entertain non-readers who vastly outnumber readers. Your average viewer doesn't care what direction he's heading or need to know his exact war plans. Ygritte is a character that sticks around beyond this season. If you're a viewer, you'd do well to be further introduced to her and to start to like her more than to Qhorin who will be dying soon. How can you not realize the necessity of this change?
People claim certain things wouldn't affect the budget at all. Well that's not true. Every change affects budget. Script rewrites aren't cheap -- this is not book writing where oh well, let GRRM take as long as he wants... it'll come out when it comes out... no. It has to be done and ready and it has to be filmed and you have to move on. There is no room to budge. Certain actors undoubtedly have clauses in their contract which require more screen time than others. Littlefinger has had a storied history on HBO so it makes total sense that he might get dialogue from another character/actor who is less of an overall focal point.
I wish some of you could take a step back... it's crazy to me how much tunnel vision exists in this thread.
bengraven
Member
Even better. Then hanging out with Shane and that Santana chick from Glee.
Jon moping as usual.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
ASOS
Was it Rhaegar and Lyanna? I thought it was Rhaegar and Elia. Rhaegar died before his and Lyanna's kid was born(assuming of course that the seemingly obvious R+L=J stuff is actually true), and in the vision he names the child Aegon. There's also at least a few mentions that Rhaegar thought Aegon was the Prince that was promised. Of course he also thought he himself was the prince at one point, so clearly he's not that good at prophecies. Of course it's a vision, so I suppose it doesn't have to be completely accurate, and I guess Jon/Aegon could have sort of blended together.
(All books + popular fan theory)
If the R+L=Jon theory pans out to be true I really don't see how they will possibly approach it in the show and expect anyone to even remotely remember who Lyanna or Rhaegar even are. They've barely been mentioned in the show, and we didn't get any of Ned's flashbacks that hint at the whole "Promise me, Ned" angle. It will be really weird for someone to randomly show up in the 7th season and be like "oh yeah Jon your parents were blah" with essentially none of the clues that have set that up.
Cornballer
Member
Assuming it doesn't get canceled, the show would catch up to the books in no time. One season a year compared to like ~5 years to write a book. So either they'll make stuff up since they'll have run out of book material, or (the better option I think) they can do "prequel" seasons with Ned and Robert and stuff in the rebellion. Then they can explain everything about R and L there.
Basileus777
Member
That was pretty good.
I am with Mike Works in this one. There are valid complaints about the show and its adaptation, this series is not above criticism at all, but a great majority of them stems from "my favourite part of the book wasn't on the show ergo it is crap", as proven by the chorus of voices which ranks the pisspoor season one avobe this latest season just because you know, it followed the books more closely. Articles like this saddens me to no end, and just prooves that some people are unable to grasp the very concept of what an adaptation is.
The TV series has lost some good scenes, yes but that was in exchange for others, and I think that this is, overall, a fair trade. Yes, I would have liked to see Ayra "asking back" the Tickler too, but that did not cock - blocked my enjoyment of her conversations with Tywin, so to speak. Not to mention that there are some parts of the latter books that I do hope and demand that they get changed and edited when adapted to the TV or even cut off entirely, like the Meeren arc and about one third of A Dance with the Dragons.
The TV series has lost some good scenes, yes but that was in exchange for others, and I think that this is, overall, a fair trade. Yes, I would have liked to see Ayra "asking back" the Tickler too, but that did not cock - blocked my enjoyment of her conversations with Tywin, so to speak. Not to mention that there are some parts of the latter books that I do hope and demand that they get changed and edited when adapted to the TV or even cut off entirely, like the Meeren arc and about one third of A Dance with the Dragons.
Jibbajabbawockky
Member
Thats part of the problem in how his story was handled this year though, is that a big chunk of the foundation of Jon's leadership skills comes from his time with Qhorin and what he's able to learn in their time together. They pretty much stripped all that out this year in favor of Ygritte.
Which as great as Ygritte is, totally screwed over Qhorin as a character. And its not like we'll be getting any more screen time with Qhorin while the same cannot be said of Ygritte.
My biggest hope for season 3, especially with splitting up ASoS, is that they can get some better pacing in episodes. I grew to dislike how so many episodes just cut from one character to the next, with many scenes feeling like they were crammed in just to remind the audience that a certain character still existed. The episodes I enjoyed more were ones that took a more focused approach and only looked at a couple characters or locations more in depth.
That gets back to my issue with some of the new content and scenes, like Dany and the Dragon kidnapping stuff or even some of the Tywin/Arya scenes. Now, I liked the Tywin/Arya scenes but with such limited time, it sort of robs Arya of what Harrenhal is supposed to build to her development as a character overall. And the Dany stuff just wasn't that exciting or interesting, being so far removed from everyone else. So instead of just trying to make more story for her, I wish they'd take a cue from the books and let certain characters fade into the background when the story calls for it and let other characters pick up the slack.
Well said!! And I agree 100%
I would add that the change to Arya's story bothered me a little. She comes off as depressed and helpless in the show rather than vengeful and scorned. I hope she gets a bit more angry & violent in season 3. She didn't even get needle back. But these are small gripes.
Jon's story was ok in the show, the books were better. I don't see why they changed it, but again, the story's not complete.
I'm not going to say the roast sucks before it's finished cooking.
Dany's story in CoK was boring and I barely remember the HotU from the book. The show delivered some fantastic imagery and a touching moment with the Khal. I loved it. I wonder how they will handle the fallout in Quarth though, there is no ruler now. It would make sense that Dany would proclaim herself Queen of Quarth. Send the news to Westeros and request/demand fealty, and so on. Of course this isn't how the book does it. Can't wait for season 3.
Thanks. It's a horror movie based on a horror game. I guess I should expect bad things to happen to everyone.
Dany is gross.
I like characters like Ned a lot. Honourable and dutiful. So maybe that's why I like Jon so much. He does seem the most similar to Ned.
It's also a nice change of pace from reading about all the selfish and treacherous and terrible people down in the south and across the sea. Jon chapters are always a nice breath of fresh air and I can cheer for him with no reservations... and Kit is a very good looking man.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
They'll explain it through sexposition between Jon and Howland Reed.
Really, if it comes to that I don't think it would be an issue. The idea of him being a bastard and Ned's "son" is well established. The most important aspect of that theory is he's half Targaryen... which you can easily just state as, "Jon, you're half Targaryen."
Really, if it comes to that I don't think it would be an issue. The idea of him being a bastard and Ned's "son" is well established. The most important aspect of that theory is he's half Targaryen... which you can easily just state as, "Jon, you're half Targaryen."
Cornballer
Member
- Via Comicbookmovie: All Of The Deaths From GAME OF THRONES Season 2 (video)
Goggins needs to get in on this show. Nothing that good could ever happen though. Life just isn't fair that way.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Totally and entirely agree. If you are not familiar with production on any scale much less TV, then these points of contention often seem easily remedied but in fact aren't. That's not being rude or demeaning, it's just pointing out the way things actually work. The show definitely has its ups and downs as any show does, but the overall quality and value is there.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Qhorin is GoTs Ziggy. He talks a mean game but all he is is a fuckup.
Comments on changes this season. I'm just marking the whole thing as spoilers through ASOS:
I agree that Robb and Jon's stories (especially the Jon and Qhorin relationship) took some damage this season, though I would hardly go so far "butchered". I think their goal with Jon is to sow doubt in viewers about his loyalty to the Watch, since we're no longer privvy to his internal monologues in which he questions himself. It does change his character to be less strong and more conflicted, since his conflict now has to be outwardly portrayed, but I at least understand the logic behind it. Still, less Ygritte and more Qhorin would've been better when they have a while season to develop Ygritte.
The Robb/Catelyn changes are harder to justify. There was no reason not to just cut the scene where Theon kills the ravens and have Robb learn of his brothers deaths normally. Catelyn's actions, while still understandable, are much less defensible now, and Robb I think we just have to accept as being rewritten as a romantic.
The complaints I don't understand are the Arya ones. Her scenes with Tywin are great and added to her character and the events that lead to her increasing violence (weasel soup/aiding Roose in capturing Harrenhal) haven't happened yet. That hotline is being stretched out, and there's no reason why she couldn't still take up a more violent role in her story with the Brotherhood, who I'm guessing are being rewritten to aid in the fall of Harrenhal with Arya's help. Some of you seem to want her to just be completely consumed by rage already, when that really shouldn't happen until after the RE when she's reunited with Needle (which some people seem to be forgetting doesn't happen until the end of book 3). The Tickle scene will be missed, but I'm sure something will be written in its place.
The Robb/Catelyn changes are harder to justify. There was no reason not to just cut the scene where Theon kills the ravens and have Robb learn of his brothers deaths normally. Catelyn's actions, while still understandable, are much less defensible now, and Robb I think we just have to accept as being rewritten as a romantic.
The complaints I don't understand are the Arya ones. Her scenes with Tywin are great and added to her character and the events that lead to her increasing violence (weasel soup/aiding Roose in capturing Harrenhal) haven't happened yet. That hotline is being stretched out, and there's no reason why she couldn't still take up a more violent role in her story with the Brotherhood, who I'm guessing are being rewritten to aid in the fall of Harrenhal with Arya's help. Some of you seem to want her to just be completely consumed by rage already, when that really shouldn't happen until after the RE when she's reunited with Needle (which some people seem to be forgetting doesn't happen until the end of book 3). The Tickle scene will be missed, but I'm sure something will be written in its place.
He's on a better show already.
He can come in later. I think he'd make a great High Septim. Or a Greyjoy. Series
Victarion or the High Septim that jails Cersei
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
ASOS
there will never be a weasel soup and she's not going to help Roose take Harrenhal, why should she go back? Those changes are fine though. The potential problem is that Harrenhal is a significant portion of the development in Arya's character, and we got none of that. Had she murdered a guard on the way out, they could have at least started her down the road she's supposed to go on. My fear is that they're going to go from A to B then straight to G with Aryas development. Maybe they'll have her do different stuff next season, maybe they won't. I think it would have been beneficial to just leave her in Harrenhal for a while into next season.
Just because I didn't like this disappointing season doesn't mean I'm an intellectually stunted myopist who couldn't possibly grasp the challenges of adaptation. If ad hominem attacks and using "budget" to excuse every poor decision and character-altering contrivance this show has taken is the best show apologists can come up with, they must not have liked this season very much, either.
I think the main difference between my stance and many of you is that for some of you the stuff you liked was good enough to excuse the stuff you didn't.
"If half a show is black with rot, it is a rotten show. A show is good, or it is bad."
I think the main difference between my stance and many of you is that for some of you the stuff you liked was good enough to excuse the stuff you didn't.
"If half a show is black with rot, it is a rotten show. A show is good, or it is bad."
Cornballer
Member
- HBO.com: Interview with Nikolaj Coster-Waldau
PhoenixDark
Banned
There are distint differences among reader criticisms. Some are unrealistic expectations that demand a larger budget. Others are realistic criticisms on the show as a whole, be it writing or plot progression - and how they compare/compliment the novels.
A lot of the changes led to less than interesting television. I realize the writers wanted Dany and Robb on screen, but that doesn't justify bad writing or putting characters in holding patterns. These types of forced scenes took away from the stronger stories in the show, and led to a product that didn't have much cohesion. I understand the various jumping around in the first episode, as all the players were introduced. But at some point it becomes too much to tell multiple stories that just aren't interesting...just to have X on screen.
And of course, all this led up to a rather anti-climatic finale that didn't really give viewers an idea of what comes next. In S1's finale, Arya heads for the Wall. In S2's finale, Arya heads...where exactly? I know because I've read the book, but what would a regular viewer think? In similar light, Robb spends the entire season wandering around camp (outside of a battle shown off screen), then gets married. He goes from a battle commanding king to an idealist romantic - and the romance doesn't even seem genuine/interesting
A lot of the changes led to less than interesting television. I realize the writers wanted Dany and Robb on screen, but that doesn't justify bad writing or putting characters in holding patterns. These types of forced scenes took away from the stronger stories in the show, and led to a product that didn't have much cohesion. I understand the various jumping around in the first episode, as all the players were introduced. But at some point it becomes too much to tell multiple stories that just aren't interesting...just to have X on screen.
And of course, all this led up to a rather anti-climatic finale that didn't really give viewers an idea of what comes next. In S1's finale, Arya heads for the Wall. In S2's finale, Arya heads...where exactly? I know because I've read the book, but what would a regular viewer think? In similar light, Robb spends the entire season wandering around camp (outside of a battle shown off screen), then gets married. He goes from a battle commanding king to an idealist romantic - and the romance doesn't even seem genuine/interesting
I thought Arya said she was going to find Robb and Cat.
Forsaken82
Member
I share many of these complaints, but in regards to the bolded, I am pretty sure she mentions that she needs to find her mother, brothers and sister. And what exactly did you expect from the romance between Robb and Talisa? (sos)
In the book we are told that he marries her because they sleep together after hes wounded, it isn't even necessarily love that attracted him to her, it was not wanting to be like his father and chance the birth of a bastard
Yes.
Robb's story arc was terrible in season 2. Won't find many people disagreeing with that.
pr0cs
Member
what?
Really? out of Robb, Jon, Dany I really think his was the best considering how shallow his arc was in book 2.
Steelyuhas
Member
You forgot about he part where we endlessly declare Cornballer the MOD IN THE NORTH and remind everyone that RENLY IS NOT RIGHT!
His arc is not shallow, it just doesn't happen first hand in the book. They had plenty of content and his military actions to work with for season 2, and they used almost none of it.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
Well Jon's was terrible, and Danys sucked because of how they stretched it out, so Robb kind of wins by default here.
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