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Game of Thrones Season 8 |OT| A Song of Icy and Fiery Fandom
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
Jon Neu
Banned
Keep in mind GAF that Jamie
1. Killed the mad king because he was gonna kill all the innocents
2. Left Kings Landing to go north and fight for the living
But he now doesn’t care about the innocents and never did
What a way to destroy his arch
I absolutely loved Jaime's and Cersei's last moments together. And I feel like him coming back to her is totally coherent with the characters. Sometimes arcs don't end with evolution, but with the realization that you just can't change.
Cersei finally stoped his psycho pose and started to react like a human being again. A vulnerable and scared human being suffering her last moments in this gruesome defeat that Cersei didn't expect at all. Lena is an amazing actress, by the way.
Yoda
Member
This episode was mixed for me:
pros:
* Dany edging on madness last episode wasn't a misdirection, while it was poorly written I suspect this is what'll happen in the books, albeit much more believable/gracefully. Glad the show had the balls to follow through.
* Tyrion and Jamie's final scene was very touching and one of the few spots of OK writing
* CGI battle scenes were the best they've been in the entire series
* Echoing the above, horrors of war were on full display, for once I agreed w/something D&D said on inside the episode, and that being focusing on the ground of the dragon attack was a very insightful decision.
* Final scene between Arya and Sandor was good for Arya's arc, even though Cleganebowl felt forced.
cons:
* Varys "plot" felt rushed, if this were done properly it'd have happened over at least 3-4 episodes.
* What was the point of the golden company?
* How did ALL the giant arrows miss? Euron landed MULTIPLE shots last time, now 300+ bows can't even manage a flesh wound?
* Dany burning soldiers who surrendered was (kinda) believable, burning 100% civilian targets which weren't in the way of killing Cersei?
Next week is somewhat predictable at this point, but I'm glad they didn't give in and end w/run-of-the-mill happy ending w/some small caveat so ppl could claim it was indeed "bittersweet"
pros:
* Dany edging on madness last episode wasn't a misdirection, while it was poorly written I suspect this is what'll happen in the books, albeit much more believable/gracefully. Glad the show had the balls to follow through.
* Tyrion and Jamie's final scene was very touching and one of the few spots of OK writing
* CGI battle scenes were the best they've been in the entire series
* Echoing the above, horrors of war were on full display, for once I agreed w/something D&D said on inside the episode, and that being focusing on the ground of the dragon attack was a very insightful decision.
* Final scene between Arya and Sandor was good for Arya's arc, even though Cleganebowl felt forced.
cons:
* Varys "plot" felt rushed, if this were done properly it'd have happened over at least 3-4 episodes.
* What was the point of the golden company?
* How did ALL the giant arrows miss? Euron landed MULTIPLE shots last time, now 300+ bows can't even manage a flesh wound?
* Dany burning soldiers who surrendered was (kinda) believable, burning 100% civilian targets which weren't in the way of killing Cersei?
Next week is somewhat predictable at this point, but I'm glad they didn't give in and end w/run-of-the-mill happy ending w/some small caveat so ppl could claim it was indeed "bittersweet"
I liked the episode, particularly since it closed the Hound's story, but there were some clear issues.
The reason people called out the poor writing in prior episodes is due to the nonsense we have to sit through in precisely this episode.
A single dragon wins the war on its own while in the last episode, we have dragon seeking ballistas hitting with pinpoint accuracy. Daenerys could have simply spent half a day with 2 or 3 dragons to crush both the Red Keep and all of the walls at Kings Landing just before moving to deal with the undead.
The Golden Company was basically one-hit killed by Dragonfire. This doesn't matter though because any mercenary company that's outnumbered and fights outside the walls against a beseiging enemy couldn't have been good anyway.
Good writing is watching a series of strategic moves that lead to a win. Bad writing is stacking the deck to get the outcome you want.
Arya Stark also ruins the last season. In this episode she serves no purpose other than to bear witness to the fallout of the 'Mad' Queen, something any character could have done. She literally cannot die here. Even in her last scene, she emerges as the sole survivor and gets on the similarly magical horse.
This will no doubt lead her to stand in the spotlight in the last episode as she once again decides a major plot point, else all her witnessing was pointless. Additionally, fuck the magical pirate that shows up whenever the writers want. He literally steps in and out of the plot by writer's magic to kill things. A narrative hitman with no character depth.
Under the fairly predictable Mad Queen plotline many guessed, she's going to be killed after continuing her "madness" and trying to execute a major character like Tyrion or Arya. Daenery's dies, Greyworm dies, and then we see who sits on the iron throne if its not destroyed. Drogon is obviously hard to kill so he'll probably side with Snow unless the writers want him dead and then Drogon simply has a heart attack or slips on some rubble and dies.
If its Jon Snow who sits on the throne, then the show has failed to establish a character that could keep the throne for 6 months before being killed, betrayed or fucking up the 7 kingdoms. Jon is neither intelligent, wise, loyal, charismatic or much of a leader.
The reason people called out the poor writing in prior episodes is due to the nonsense we have to sit through in precisely this episode.
A single dragon wins the war on its own while in the last episode, we have dragon seeking ballistas hitting with pinpoint accuracy. Daenerys could have simply spent half a day with 2 or 3 dragons to crush both the Red Keep and all of the walls at Kings Landing just before moving to deal with the undead.
The Golden Company was basically one-hit killed by Dragonfire. This doesn't matter though because any mercenary company that's outnumbered and fights outside the walls against a beseiging enemy couldn't have been good anyway.
Good writing is watching a series of strategic moves that lead to a win. Bad writing is stacking the deck to get the outcome you want.
Arya Stark also ruins the last season. In this episode she serves no purpose other than to bear witness to the fallout of the 'Mad' Queen, something any character could have done. She literally cannot die here. Even in her last scene, she emerges as the sole survivor and gets on the similarly magical horse.
This will no doubt lead her to stand in the spotlight in the last episode as she once again decides a major plot point, else all her witnessing was pointless. Additionally, fuck the magical pirate that shows up whenever the writers want. He literally steps in and out of the plot by writer's magic to kill things. A narrative hitman with no character depth.
Under the fairly predictable Mad Queen plotline many guessed, she's going to be killed after continuing her "madness" and trying to execute a major character like Tyrion or Arya. Daenery's dies, Greyworm dies, and then we see who sits on the iron throne if its not destroyed. Drogon is obviously hard to kill so he'll probably side with Snow unless the writers want him dead and then Drogon simply has a heart attack or slips on some rubble and dies.
If its Jon Snow who sits on the throne, then the show has failed to establish a character that could keep the throne for 6 months before being killed, betrayed or fucking up the 7 kingdoms. Jon is neither intelligent, wise, loyal, charismatic or much of a leader.
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Jon Neu
Banned
We have to bear in mind too that Drogon is the strongest dragon, and also that Dany has become quite the skilled raider. Viserion and Rhaegal were easy targets, Drogon mounted by Dany has to be much more difficult to deal with for all the reasons above.
That's not to say that Rhaegal death wasn't poorly executed, because it was.
That's not to say that Rhaegal death wasn't poorly executed, because it was.
RedVIper
Banned
That people with good intentions still do bad things.
Anti-war messages.
So what's your guys take on the last Arya scene.
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MetalAlien
Banned
Dani is just clearing room to open a shit-ton of Starbucks!
RedVIper
Banned
I feel like it symbolism from the bible, the four horseman. But wanted to know what everyone else thought.
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O-N-E
Member
I think D&D truly love GRRM with all their hearts. So much so that they abandoned all foreshadowing that Jon will deal with the white walkers and Jaime will kill Cersei...
Nope. They've generously gifted the honor to GRRM. As true fans of the books, they didn't feel it was right for them to put the true ending to screen before Georgy turned his papers in first.
Nope. They've generously gifted the honor to GRRM. As true fans of the books, they didn't feel it was right for them to put the true ending to screen before Georgy turned his papers in first.
Silent Duck
Member
I agree. Looks like the director of Taken 3 filmed this sequence. There seemed to be an obnoxious amount of jump cuts in futile attempts to mask the weak choreography.
Silent Duck
Member
Death rides a pale horse. Arya represents Death here, I guess. I can only assume Arya is gonna kill Dany. I lost count, but how many major antagonists that Arya kills will this make?
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RedVIper
Banned
Having the same plot isn't the problem. It's the execution that's the problem here, danny going full mental isn't believable because it's super rushed in the show.
The journey to the end matters a lot.
Super Mario
Banned
I hate that it is impossible to put anything on TV anymore without a bunch of experts telling you how they would have done it.
But I will be one of those very people I hate today. I absolutely hated what they did with Dany. No, not because I want to "root for the good guy." It just made no sense. If you wanted us to hate her and show her abuse of power, there were countless other ways this could have been done. Quick thinking here. Maybe Cersei saw the threat an decided to blend in with the common folk. Thinking Dany wouldn't stoop so low. Dany rushes the tower, looking to meet Cersei, face to face, only to find an imposter. Dany, in her lust for power and revenge, decides to kill everyone to ensure she gets to Cersei as the ends justify the means. Makes sense. Gives Dany major heat still as children burn.
We saw her hatred for Cersei last episode. Ok, so we're building up a story here. She didn't place any priority on getting to Cersei, nor does she know if she's alive or not. Who would do that? Instead, she murdered a bunch of innocent people for no reason. It also made no sense that last time a dragon died and it was a retreat because the forces were too much. Yet this time, the remaining dragon took down the entire fleet, castle defense, city, everything with ease like they were shooting nerf arrows. Dany's army wasn't even needed. After 8 seasons of incredible story-telling, they end it with this shit.
Other than that, I enjoyed the other stories (except Varys). You can tell Jon stays true to his values. Arya is gonna Arya. The hound and the mountain was satisfying. Tyrion is torn.
But I will be one of those very people I hate today. I absolutely hated what they did with Dany. No, not because I want to "root for the good guy." It just made no sense. If you wanted us to hate her and show her abuse of power, there were countless other ways this could have been done. Quick thinking here. Maybe Cersei saw the threat an decided to blend in with the common folk. Thinking Dany wouldn't stoop so low. Dany rushes the tower, looking to meet Cersei, face to face, only to find an imposter. Dany, in her lust for power and revenge, decides to kill everyone to ensure she gets to Cersei as the ends justify the means. Makes sense. Gives Dany major heat still as children burn.
We saw her hatred for Cersei last episode. Ok, so we're building up a story here. She didn't place any priority on getting to Cersei, nor does she know if she's alive or not. Who would do that? Instead, she murdered a bunch of innocent people for no reason. It also made no sense that last time a dragon died and it was a retreat because the forces were too much. Yet this time, the remaining dragon took down the entire fleet, castle defense, city, everything with ease like they were shooting nerf arrows. Dany's army wasn't even needed. After 8 seasons of incredible story-telling, they end it with this shit.
Other than that, I enjoyed the other stories (except Varys). You can tell Jon stays true to his values. Arya is gonna Arya. The hound and the mountain was satisfying. Tyrion is torn.
vpance
Member
Everything about the the last 2 seasons has been sped up, so of course they've had to make concessions in exposition. They basically crammed 3 seasons worth of story into 2.
The Targs have always been batshit insane. It's in their blood. So I can see how a traumatic event would cause her to snap. Sometimes the power of genetics just takes over, like with Jamie and his sis.
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RedVIper
Banned
It was their choice, HBO was fully prepared to make the seasons/show longer and give them the budget for it.
I think they really just want to move on.
Airbus Jr
Banned
Maybe because season 8 is the finale and everyones there are running on budget now after 7 expensive season and the book have fck ton of pages to flesh out all those transformation more slowly
HBO spent lot of money for this show
Lets just celebrate and be happy it doesnt ended up like Rome ( become unfinished due to running out of budget)
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Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
I don't have a huge problem with Dany taking out Cersei like this. Honestly, this is what I thought she should have done from the start. I don't see how anyone can say otherwise. We saw 2 years of Tyrion giving her absolute dogshit advice telling her to fuck around with deals and plans and all this dumb shit while she just lost over and over. If she is trying to conquer the 7 kingdoms, then fucking conquer it. It's the dark ages, people die. Aegon the Conqueror fucking nuked everything, then built a new city. That's what you do if you are conquering.
The only things I felt were dumb were peripheral side plots. 1) Clegane fight was kinda dumb. The Hound is just not that significant that it needed this dramatic superhero battle in the final episode fight. His face is burned, and who really cares? This is a side plot. 2) Arya being a POV character here is dumb. She already had more spotlight than she needed. 3) Cersei and Jamie don't have a satisfying conclusion here at all 4) Euron is a fucking dumbass, and there is absolutely nothing gained by him having any screentime this episode beyond getting nuked on a ship. Really, really, really dumb.
The core story beats were honestly fine for me. These side stories were dumb though.
The main problem I still have is that the White Walkers were rushed so much that this all feels stupid. The actual plot points aren't even that terrible, but the execution is just so rushed.
And at this point, I genuinely WANT Tyrion to die. He's a fucking loser, and he deserves it at this point. Jamie escaped for nothing. Tyrion rang the bell for nothing. Tyrion has just made everything worse, and he sucks. And he should die.
The only things I felt were dumb were peripheral side plots. 1) Clegane fight was kinda dumb. The Hound is just not that significant that it needed this dramatic superhero battle in the final episode fight. His face is burned, and who really cares? This is a side plot. 2) Arya being a POV character here is dumb. She already had more spotlight than she needed. 3) Cersei and Jamie don't have a satisfying conclusion here at all 4) Euron is a fucking dumbass, and there is absolutely nothing gained by him having any screentime this episode beyond getting nuked on a ship. Really, really, really dumb.
The core story beats were honestly fine for me. These side stories were dumb though.
The main problem I still have is that the White Walkers were rushed so much that this all feels stupid. The actual plot points aren't even that terrible, but the execution is just so rushed.
And at this point, I genuinely WANT Tyrion to die. He's a fucking loser, and he deserves it at this point. Jamie escaped for nothing. Tyrion rang the bell for nothing. Tyrion has just made everything worse, and he sucks. And he should die.
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DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
There was a lot to dislike in this episode, but I think this one was better than the last 2. Maybe that's because all my expectations were destroyed, but it had less "cringeworthy" moments. There still were some, but IMO at least it had good action and great shots.
Halo is Back
Member
I can understand Danny going crazy but burning down the WHOLE city like wtf..........
I actually think this what GRRM has in mind but it was exacuted poorly and was WAY too rushed.
I actually think this what GRRM has in mind but it was exacuted poorly and was WAY too rushed.
haxan7
Banned
He's always been my favorite character, since 2005 when I read the first book, and I hope he takes whatever is left of the throne when it's all said and done.
Punished Miku
Human Rights Subscription Service
That's the part that shocked me and was kinda neat. I was like, oh damn, she is just nuking civilians on the way to Cersei.
Then a few more shots and I was like ....
......... ohhhhhhh shit, she is just leveling the entire city. That's actually pretty dark.
Kadayi
Banned
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SpartanN92
Banned
I thought this episode was CRAZYYYYYY!!!
I loved it.
I loved it.
Halo is Back
Member
It’s that Targaryen boold. Centuries of in breeding will do that to ya kids and make them crazy
NYR
Member
Blown away by this. It wasn’t even the worst episode of the season.Dat like ratio.
Wings 嫩翼翻せ
so it's not nice
Ya know, this was kind of an issue for me too. Viserion's death was way more impactful and better executed for me, and clearly left an impact when it happened. I feel the last dragon's death wasn't nearly so, but I mean they did say they were cutting things down so I can't really hate too much.
This season was always heading South from the moment Arya killed the Night King in episode 3. It was clear then that D&D were more interested in hurriedly tying up loose ends than creating a cohesive, dramatically and thematically compelling narrative. A properly written story would interlink the various factions and threats, constantly changing the stakes with each victory or loss, culminating in a finale where the consequences of all the subsequent events fall as they will. Instead, D&D have structured the season as three almost entirely separate battles: vs the Night King, then Cersei, next Mad Queen Dany. There's no tension or drama because there's been no complexity or overlap between the conflicts, just one after the other in easy order.
+1. It's jarringly episodic compared to the rest of the story's structure.
ConnorDuffy1977
Banned
Another solid episode. I did have some reservations but the overall production was very good. This has been an incredible season so far and I really can't wait to watch this whole thing from season one all over again. Amazing. People just love this show.
ConnorDuffy1977
Banned
It was extremely powerful and wrought with emotion. I can't believe it's all coming to an end. What a trip it's been.
SpartanN92
Banned
I understand the criticism of this season but I’m still loving it.
GoT is IMO the greatest show ever made. It’s been such an amazing adventure and I’m sad to see it end.
DragoonKain
Neighbours from Hell
I see a lot of people finally turning heel after that episode. That I don't get. That's the episode that soured people on GOT? We wouldn't have had this episode in the first place if they didn't mess up the previous 2.
All things considered, the fact that they painted themselves in such a horrible corner, I actually thought they did a decent job tonight. It could have been much much worse. At least they left themselves with a fearsome formidable foe for the finale.
But we're at this point because they screwed up episodes 3 and 4. Yeah, the deaths tonight weren't satisfying, but NEITHER WAS THE NIGHT KING!
All things considered, the fact that they painted themselves in such a horrible corner, I actually thought they did a decent job tonight. It could have been much much worse. At least they left themselves with a fearsome formidable foe for the finale.
But we're at this point because they screwed up episodes 3 and 4. Yeah, the deaths tonight weren't satisfying, but NEITHER WAS THE NIGHT KING!
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
Today's episode reminded me of The Witcher when Geralt is running away while that dragon is attacking.
The broad strokes -- very broadly -- make sense for Martin's outline, with the Long Night being the LotR-style climax, and this part with King's Landing, Cersei, Dany, and the political fate of Westeros being the "scouring of the Shire" epilogue Martin has talked about. If we ever see it in book form, I'd expect the Long Night to be...long, and far more punishing, and resulting in major shifts in personality for the surviving characters, who want an end to petty political disputes and vying for the Iron Throne. I'd expect a serious enmity toward Cersei from the allied forces for not participating in the defense of the realm, which we really don't see here as a relevant motivator. Everything probably goes to hell and despair with Euron in the picture, too, and Varys plots with Young Griff, etc., setting the stage a lot more convincingly for Dany's dark turn.
Instead, everything here is prompted by Missandei's death, which doesn't carry all of these events forward well enough. Dany is pissed, Grey Worm is pissed, therefore a million people die and it all plays out as it will, with Jon and the others powerless to do anything, and Varys acting like a fool with his loose lips about the assassination plot and pushing for Jon.
It could've been a powerful final season, with competent writing behind it and more screen time.
Instead, everything here is prompted by Missandei's death, which doesn't carry all of these events forward well enough. Dany is pissed, Grey Worm is pissed, therefore a million people die and it all plays out as it will, with Jon and the others powerless to do anything, and Varys acting like a fool with his loose lips about the assassination plot and pushing for Jon.
It could've been a powerful final season, with competent writing behind it and more screen time.
Lionel Richie
Member
RIP Jaime, still the greatest and bestest bro. My dreams of a spinoff featuring him and Bronn doing nothing but broing it up and talking shit and fucking women is gone.
Like most of you, I also have a lot of issues with the writing. But I absolutely adored the ambiance in this episode, the music was INSANE and got me all the time in that scary and tense mood. For such a normie series, there was some crazy carnage going on and aside from that Taken 3 levels of awful fight between Jaime (RIP, you are the man baby) and Euron, it absolutely looked the part.
Overall, can't see much to complain. Dany is getting fucked up harder than Projared's career next week. I do like how she ended up being the ultimate villain all along. We're now Dragon Ball Z on this motherfucker, give me another season and Gendry is the next big bad one and he can fly and shoot lasers and shit.
Like most of you, I also have a lot of issues with the writing. But I absolutely adored the ambiance in this episode, the music was INSANE and got me all the time in that scary and tense mood. For such a normie series, there was some crazy carnage going on and aside from that Taken 3 levels of awful fight between Jaime (RIP, you are the man baby) and Euron, it absolutely looked the part.
Overall, can't see much to complain. Dany is getting fucked up harder than Projared's career next week. I do like how she ended up being the ultimate villain all along. We're now Dragon Ball Z on this motherfucker, give me another season and Gendry is the next big bad one and he can fly and shoot lasers and shit.
Grinchy
Banned
I have plenty of problems with this season overall, but I still enjoyed many things from this episode that didn't involve Euron.
The whole thing about Dany's realization that she'll never rule with anything other than fear (b/c no one actually likes her) made her feel like she had to completely decimate the entire city. It's quick because for some reason they felt they had to end the show now, but it at least makes sense logically from her fucked up brain.
The visuals were great. Having the battle take place during the day was a nice touch after the other hour+ battle episode where you couldn't even tell who was fighting each other. Jaime did pretty much exactly what you'd think he'd do based on his past actions. Cersei finally broke down and got what she deserved. Everyone's questioning Dany'd madness. Things are where they should be. I am starting to assume we'll have Arya killing Dany, which I'm not sure how I feel about, but it could be worse.
The whole thing about Dany's realization that she'll never rule with anything other than fear (b/c no one actually likes her) made her feel like she had to completely decimate the entire city. It's quick because for some reason they felt they had to end the show now, but it at least makes sense logically from her fucked up brain.
The visuals were great. Having the battle take place during the day was a nice touch after the other hour+ battle episode where you couldn't even tell who was fighting each other. Jaime did pretty much exactly what you'd think he'd do based on his past actions. Cersei finally broke down and got what she deserved. Everyone's questioning Dany'd madness. Things are where they should be. I am starting to assume we'll have Arya killing Dany, which I'm not sure how I feel about, but it could be worse.
Fox Mulder
Member
I thought it was well directed and great it wasn't at night at least. It just fucking sucks this is all so rushed and unearned.
Dargor
Member
You leave Gendry alone, you monster!
Hes been made Lord of Storm's End and hasn't showed up ever since, like, Storm's End isn't even one of the most important lordships in the entire land or anything...
And after these last 5 episodes, I hope it stays that way. Go hide under a rock or something Gendry, its for the best.
autoduelist
Member
DRACARYS!
Malakhov
Banned
I absolutely love this season, its everything i didnt expect it to be and i think they did an amazing job.
Dargor
Member
Poor dude, actually believing Dumb&Dumber care about small things like "foreshadowing" or "continuity".
eot
Banned
In concept I can get down with Arya letting go of revenge by way of the Hound, but as usual I don't think it was well executed, last episode she was all "I'm never coming back", and now it didn't take that much (in the grand scheme of things) for her to change her mind. A bit too unearned. Why did we have to watch her dodge rubble for 30 min though? Is that the culmination of her arc?
And Jon, what the fuck is going on with his character this season? He's just been thinking with his dick, now at the end he realised Dany is nutso, but so what? There is nothing they can do in the last episode to make his arc have any kind of cohesion, doesn't matter if he kills her or not.
They're completely failing to have meaningful resolutions to their character arc's IMO. I mean, last episode they decided to cut Jon telling his family about his parentage, because "it was obvious what he was going to say", so the last scene with the Starks never was.
I can imagine that a lot of what happened in this episode is how it goes down in the books too, Dany completely ruining King's Landing. But I imagine that it will have more build up, and that her descent into madness doesn't happen over not getting the D.
edit: also wanted to say that the Euron vs Jaime fight had some of the worst jump cuts I've seen.
And Jon, what the fuck is going on with his character this season? He's just been thinking with his dick, now at the end he realised Dany is nutso, but so what? There is nothing they can do in the last episode to make his arc have any kind of cohesion, doesn't matter if he kills her or not.
They're completely failing to have meaningful resolutions to their character arc's IMO. I mean, last episode they decided to cut Jon telling his family about his parentage, because "it was obvious what he was going to say", so the last scene with the Starks never was.
I can imagine that a lot of what happened in this episode is how it goes down in the books too, Dany completely ruining King's Landing. But I imagine that it will have more build up, and that her descent into madness doesn't happen over not getting the D.
edit: also wanted to say that the Euron vs Jaime fight had some of the worst jump cuts I've seen.
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