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Gamers, now is not a good time to buy a cheap "HDR" TV

EvB

Member
So , there are a load of threads about 4K and HDR and there is clearly a lot of confusion between 4k, HDR and Wide Color Gamut.

As gamers the only component of this we should be interested in is the HDR part. Right now the developers are being cagey about what they are doing , what is HDR and what is WCG.

Microsoft have stated that the Xbox One S does not use WCG for games ( only movies)
Sony hasn't said a word about what either machine is actually doing. PS3, PS4 and Xbox One all supported 10 bit deep color from their launches, yet we've never seen a game that utilises it.
(Xbox One actually supports 12-bit output also, which will be a requirement for Dolby Vision in future)

10 bit textures and data requires more storage and more bandwidth, so there is are performance implications on all the machines.
For a game to well and truly support WCG, every texture and video will need to be replaced with an 10 bit WCG version.

So, on the assumption that we aren't going to see much in the way of WCG material any time soon, but the console manufacturers are insistent on talking about it like it is a very real thing. The only assumption that can be made is that they are using the HDR side of things to better control image brightness in things like sunspots and specular highlights.

So what I've done as a guideline to show where TVs are right now in the grand scheme of things. Rtings have done some tests that show a screen's capability to display a bright image on a 2% area of the screen, so something like the sun or perhaps a light source.

eJplrvk.gif


What we can see is that the vast majority of TVs available right now sit right at the very bottom on the chart, falling massively short of the peak brightness of 1000nits to hit the main HDR standard : UHD Premium

What this also shows you is exactly why Sony chose to create their own standard, one that has no minimum brightness requirement (4k HDR), it also shows why they have chosen not to publish Nit data for their most recent TVs (such as the X800D , which has been recommended in another thread).

Another note as a gamer, because HDR10 impliementations require the TV to analyse the image and control brightness accordingly, TVs are having to do image processing in order to actually display HDR content correctly, resulting in input lag.
Activating GAME MODE doesn't always help, as on some models this actual disables HDR processing altogether, as it stands many review sites are not clear about their testing of input lag with HDR for gaming.
So again, the resources for researching an expensive purchase such as a TV are limited, also contributing towards now not being an easy time to make the right purchase.
Anyway, I hope this helps to further add some clarity to the intentional obfusication from TV manufacturers and now Console makers.

Update: I've removed all references to Dolby Vision as even it's very presence seems to offend, also have removed the OLED TVs from this chart, as they are measured slightly differently due to their superior abilities to produce deep black.
Source of data : http://uk.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/peak-brightness

TDLR; Don't buy a cheap one right now, possibly don't buy an expensive one either as the HDR mode will bring in extra lag ,wait just a few months (CES is in 3 Months) until the next wave of TV's with HDR functionality appear.
 

Zojirushi

Member
Yeah unless you're the type that buys a new TV every couple of years anyway (which is crazy in my opinion but whatever works for people I guess)
 

EvB

Member
5000 nits? I'd like to be able to use my eyes in 30 years time please.

Dolby Vision is actually aiming for mastering content in 12000nits, so that the format is future proofed.

I couldn't adjust th scale to that as it made th rest of tha data unreadable
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
5000 nits? Are they fucking insane? 2000 is strong enough most people would have to look away from the damn screen unless I'm reading this wrong.
 
Don't know if accurate but in my country it's really hard to find an HDR TV affordable (and even expensive ones are hard to find), so my idea is to buy PS4 Pro first and get a new TV next year when probably the offer will be wider.
 

BlobDude

Neo Member
Yeah unless you're the type that buys a new TV every couple of years anyway (which is crazy in my opinion but whatever works for people I guess)

I'm chomping at the bit to buy something 4K HDR not just to be able to use these kinds of features, but also to buy a TV that ideally fits my space. The 48" 1080p set I bought for my old space doesn't work as well from 3ft farther away. And if I'm going to buy a set that's 7-10" bigger, and it's going to cost me like $1500+ to get a good one (in 1080p) anyway, why not throw down the extra $500 and get the Vizio P65-C1 at 65" and have a decent 4K set until I need something bigger for another new space down the road.
 

EvB

Member
So we're expecting TVs with better HDR at CES 2017, I hope.

Yes, and it should become more commonplace. It's almost exclusively TVs that have been launched this year with the intention of hitting the requirements (which were only finalised this year also)
 
I'm sorry but these snobby posts are what turns me off about NeoGAF.

I have a 4K tv. It does HDR but not HDR 1000. Compared to the 1080p tv I had it's night and day. 4K from Netflix is mind blowing. 3D looks like a digital window.

I saw HDR 1000 over the weekend at Best Buy. It was nice but honestly I hard time distinguishing the image from my current set.

On the other hand, I was at my friend's house who has my old 1080p set. The image was so dark I could hardly stand it. There was no shadow detail and so much detail overall was lost.

Is there always a better piece of tech 6 months away? Of course. But if you are ready for 4K and excited for PS4 Pro, you will not be disappointed by the current sets.
 

Caayn

Member
You're incorrectly lumping OLED TVs with LCD ones. OLEDs have a different UHD Premium requirement due to their capability of showing perfect black and lower peak brightness.
 

mnannola

Member
When will the average TV be able to display 5000 nits? Is that going to be exclusive to $5,000 + TV's for the next 5 years? Or is technology moving so fast that even $1000 TV's will have that ability in the next year or two?
 
Yes, and it should become more commonplace. It's almost exclusively TVs that have been launched this year with the intention of hitting the requirements (which were only finalised this year also)

Looks like I'll wait for CES. I have an M70-C3 that will keep me until then, when HDR content is more commonplace.
 
I'll take OLED colors and contrast ratio over peak brightness any day.

That said, Dolby sounds insane for wanting such a ridiculous peak brightness.

You're incorrectly lumping OLED TVs with LCD ones. OLEDs have a different UHD Premium requirement due to their capability of showing perfect black and lower peak brightness.

Also this.
 
The prices of all the OLED HDR TVs should have been proof enough that it's still early adopter phase. I hope we'll get somewhere in two years.

I also wonder if there will be affordable G-sync / Freesync PC monitors with HDR any time soon.
 
Spending a week reading about this shit and seeing 50,000 threads about it and realizing I might need a new receiver because of the 4K passthrough mine does isnt up to snuff made me say IM GOOD. Got a 1080p set with 30ms lag, got a 2TB PS4 and I got VR a month away.

And ya know..I randomly put on Assassins Creed Freedom Cry yesterday because Im going through my backlog...that thing is 3 year old, looks great and runs great. How much better do I need them to be. I cant see each pixel like some of you fake wizards seem to be able to.


Having to sit in study hall and figure out all this too off putting. Gotta appreciate what ya got and remember its all really good!
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Guys dont buy a PS4 because the graphics will only get better. wait for the PS5!

Four years later.

Guys dont buy a PS5, the graphics will only get better.
 

EvB

Member
You're incorrectly lumping OLED TVs with LCD ones. OLEDs have a different UHD Premium requirement due to their capability of showing perfect black and lower peak brightness.

Very true, I didn't even look at what the actual TVs were, I just used the data.
 

Ducktail

Member
This is very interesting, OP! Thank you!


Samsung JS 9500 costs 9000 dollars where I live. I can't afford that nor will I ever be able to.
 

McHuj

Member
Unless my TV breaks, in not going t be buying a 4K tv for the leaving room until PS5 hits. PS4P is just for improved 1080p for me.
 
I would legitimately recommend waiting until CES 2017.

It's either that or buy that $4000 LG OLED.

That $4000 is too small for me. It's a 65" right? I have a 70 in my theater room and it feels small. I know the one up is a 77", but it jumps high in price

Unless my TV breaks, in not going t be buying a 4K tv for the leaving room until PS5 hits. PS4P is just for improved 1080p for me.

I'll probably be running my PS4P in 1080 mode since I don't have an HDR 4K
 
Summary of Dolby Vision:

But back on topic, I think that now is an okay time for people to update to 4k especially with the PS4 Pro coming out. Technology will always advance and your current hardware will always become outdated/obsolete. So what's left for deciding?

I believe the most important factor for 4k displays has been the extraordinary price which has come down in recent years. Couple that with HDR10/DolbyVision adoption and you should be set for the next 4-5 years unless some breakthrough innovation occurs, but I don't see that happening at least for content consumption services(ie streaming services) unless our network infrastructure is vastly improved (no throttling/data caps, net neutrality, increased bandwidth, lower prices).

Edit:
To clarify my point about media consumption, I don't know if gaming or movies/tv shows will be the driving force for increased adoption. I would like to think both but I'm more inclined to side with the movie industry based on precedent.
 

EvB

Member
Guys dont buy a PS4 because the graphics will only get better. wait for the PS5!

Four years later.

Guys dont buy a PS5, the graphics will only get better.

That's not the point, because there are TV's that are hitting these crazy numbers, however the price is high and instead people are making poor decisions and purchasing TVs that will literally be significantly outdated in literal months.

Either spend the cash and get one that will last or buy one in a few months when they are cheaper, either way gaming content is sparse to say the least and we don't know much about what the future plans in the gaming space are.
 

Hedrush

Member
I've got the Sony X8509C and according to that chart its 282. I have no idea what that means? All I knows is the picture quality is second to none. 4K Netflix is glorious.
 

vg260

Member
I'm sorry but these snobby posts are what turns me off about NeoGAF.

What's snobby about the post?

Seems like interesting information to consider if buying new TV for specific tech. The whole HDR standard thing is pretty confusing to most.
 
I love mys KS8000. Beats the shit out of my old tv. Why the fuck do I care if somethig better comes out next year? Guess what? Something better will be out the year after that too. And the year after that? Something better.

It's like computer hardware. The right time to buy is when you want and can afford.
 
I want to upgrade, but not sure what to do. I bought my current set right when 4k became a thing and it currently only supports UHD. But I've been really happy with it... Going to attempt to hold off on a purchase until Scorpio hits, but I might crack this black Friday on one of the LG or Samsungs. We'll see. shrug
 

BriGuy

Member
Those nits are nuts. When I get a new TV, one of the first things I do is lower the back light settings because the factory settings hurt my eyes. Who knew that getting hit in the face with something close to the intensity of the sun when you're trying to unwind at night was desirable? Maybe HDR isn't for me.
 
TV's are like a lot of electronics, they get better by the day so if you're waiting for these, when those come out people will be like well no no, wait because THIS is coming in two years!

I'm not saying it's bad to wait, but if you get too nitpicky you're never going to settle.
 
I'm sorry but these snobby posts are what turns me off about NeoGAF.

I have a 4K tv. It does HDR but not HDR 1000. Compared to the 1080p tv I had it's night and day. 4K from Netflix is mind blowing. 3D looks like a digital window.

I saw HDR 1000 over the weekend at Best Buy. It was nice but honestly I hard time distinguishing the image from my current set.

On the other hand, I was at my friend's house who has my old 1080p set. The image was so dark I could hardly stand it. There was no shadow detail and so much detail overall was lost.

Is there always a better piece of tech 6 months away? Of course. But if you are ready for 4K and excited for PS4 Pro, you will not be disappointed by the current sets.

This. You can get one now and you won't regret it.!
 
I always put all of my screen at minimum brightness.

Surely HDR is more than just brightness. It is about the colour depth and contrasts?
 
That means your TV is capable of displaying very small very bright areas, which is exactly what you want from an HDR TV for games.

Cool. Now I just need to solve the riddle as to why the fuck I bought a PS4 a few months back rather than waiting for the Pro :)
 

EvB

Member
I love mys KS8000. Beats the shit out of my old tv. Why the fuck do I care if somethig better comes out next year? Guess what? Something better will be out the year after that too. And the year after that? Something better.

You are in a good place, because that TV hits the threshold for the most common adopted HDR standard, it's almost 3x as bright in the same situation as almost everything else available.
If I was to buy one now I'd pick something like yours
 
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