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[Dude Abides]

An advertisement to join the school was not the point I was making.





I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they will think their prom will become a joke if she wears a tux? That's a hit to credibility. It's their establishment. Unless it is proven that the school is openly discriminating against the woman because she's gay, they can bar a female from wearing a tux because it doesn't align with their dress code.

The credibility of a prom? What is that?

 

[RastaMentality]

The only issue I can see is if she gets to wear a suit then any boy can rock up in a dress as they would have to allow it otherwise he could say he's being discriminated against. I know a portion of my friends would turn up in dresses for the lolz if they could get away with it.

On the other hand it's dress code and I really don't see the issue with wearing a dress for one night. I'm not a big fancy dress person but if someone instigates a Disney theme I'll rock up as a Dalmation.

And they should be able to. It's prom not a test-taking situation. Guys wearing dresses isn't a distraction and it'd only really be funny for 5 minutes always.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I don't know the answer to that. Maybe they will think their prom will become a joke if she wears a tux? That's a hit to credibility. It's their establishment. Unless it is proven that the school is openly discriminating against the woman because she's gay, they can bar a female from wearing a tux because it doesn't align with their dress code.

There is no dress code beyond tuxedos and dresses. That most people conform to 'gender roles' is irrelevant - nothing says she can't wear a tuxedo except the people in charge of the school for vague reasons.

 

[Moosichu]

Now you're just being facetious. I merely used an example to illustrate my point...

You know what, never mind.

That example didn't illustrate it though. In fact it made your point less credible.

 

[Yaboosh]

I wouldn't want to be forced to wear a dress.

So she shouldn't be forced to wear one.

Empathy makes stuff like this much easier.

 

[ScatheZombie]

High school prom is one of the most pretentious, archaic, and unnecessarily stupid institutions we continue to cling to like idiots. Right up there with diamond engagement rings. It's really nothing more than an excuse for teenagers to dress up, get shitfaced, and fuck while maintaining a semblance of class that most of them simply don't have. I'm honestly surprised any parent encourages their child to go to prom anymore.

"Yes, sweety, we're gonna get you a really expensive dress to wear one night so your boyfriend can fuck you in the limo. Just make sure to use a rubber or take it in the ass so you don't get knocked up like your mother did."

That said,

When life gives you lemons ... you wear a tuxedo dress.

 

[Siegcram]

And they should be able to. It's prom not a test-taking situation. Guys wearing dresses isn't a distraction and it'd only really be funny for 5 minutes always.

I want to see the one guy who has the balls to wear a dress to his high school prom for the lulz. That wouldn't happen in a million years.

 

[Razmos]

And lets not even get started on how archaic the idea of a Prom King and Queen is. (and just generally stupid, it's a popularity contest)

 

[Opiate]

I said the opposite. If you change the tradition it becomes something that is just done. It has no significance. If you don't abide by it it no longer becomes a tradition.

No, I understand this. I agree, traditions you no longer abide become non-traditions.

What I'm asking you to do is justify the tradition reasonably. Why should this tradition continue to exist? The reason can't just be "because it's tradition."

 

[TCRS]

Yes, this is tradition. I am again asking you to explain why that is inherently worthwhile. "It's always been that way" is not a logically valid argument.

Yes, tradition is not a valid argument. Again, please offer a rational argument. I've offered mine: because this specific girl will be happier if she can go in a tux.

I'm willing to listen to your opinion, but you need to provide a reason for it. "It's tradition" isn't valid; I'm just asking for you to state a reason why this particular tradition is worth continuing.

That's not my argument though, my argument is that we don't always get to do things our way, that's not how society works. Sometimes there are rules that we have to follow and the rule here is a dresscode that mandates a dress for women and tux for men based on traditions. What makes her so special that she doesn't have to follow this rule? Can we just pick and chose which rules we want to follow?

The question here is not whether the tradition is worth protecting, the question is why the tradition should change due to the discomfort of a single person. Put those two things on a scale and tradition weighs more heavy for me. Do you have any other argument besides her happiness, because that's not very convincing either.

 

[Broder Salsa]

I hope they find a solution and everyone are happy. The other day I had to pay double for wearing flip flops somewhere. I know how this feels.

 

[Wynnebeck]

I take issue with the fact that because she's an honor student this somehow entitles her to get whatever she wants and is being "used" by the school. That sounds like a child having a tantrum. I couldn't care less what she wore to prom. Hell, my own mother wear business suits to work when a majority of her peers wear dresses. It's just clothes.

 

[theJohann]

This rule is implicitly insisting on two separate functions; the first is to make sure everyone dresses nice (i.e. no jeans), the second is to make sure everyone wears gender appropriate clothing (i.e. no tuxes for women). I think you'd see far more sympathy for the former part of this rule than the latter.

Is there any reason why we should uphold the former more than the latter? To me, they both seem equally arbitrary. We can take a consequentialist approach, that gendered clothing reinforces harmful gender roles and therefore gender inequality, but I can also argue that the binary of formal and informal clothing reinforces harmful class and status roles and therefore class-based inequality.

Many traditions are completely arbitrary. A handshake is nothing more than a convenient way to transmit germs, but I still perform it because of its significance as a polite gesture. The student's wish to wear a tuxedo to her prom is arbitrary, because such desires are not based on raw ratiocination, but on a complex history of socialisation and biology. Arbitrariness, therefore, is neither a sufficient criticism nor justification; it only becomes one or the other when accompanied with further evaluation, and more preferably a weighing of consequences.

 

[Opiate]

That's not my argument though, my argument is that we don't always get to do things our way, that's not how society works. Sometimes there are rules that we have to follow and the rule here is a dresscode that mandates a dress for women and tux for men based on traditions. What makes her so special that she doesn't have to follow this rule?

Nothing. The point is that rules don't get to exist just because. The rules need a valid justification for existence.

The question here is not whether the tradition is worth protecting, the question is why the tradition should change due to the discomfort of a single person. Put those two things on a scale and tradition weighs more heavy for me. Do you have any other argument besides her happiness, because that's not very convincing either.

A single person's happiness is a relatively small thing in the big picture, but it certainly outweighs "nothing." You've provided no argument at all. I will ask again: what is your argument against removing this dresscode? Why should this rule exist?

 

[bengraven]

It's Louisiana.

Why would you even attempt this? You'll never change the place.

Sorry, feeling useless right now.

 

[Bubba T]

That example didn't illustrate it though. In fact it made your point less credible.

Fair enough.

Another example would be dress at a nightclub. Many of them do not allow T-shirts, sneakers, fitted caps, etc. Several reasons include that sort of wear not fitting in with the atmosphere of what the establishment wants. And really, that is the point. It is what the establishment wants.

The school wants women in dresses and men in tuxes. That is the rule they have established for their prom. Yes, it is a time for students to celebrate and have a good time, but they still have to follow the school's rules as it is a school function. If it is proven (key word here), that they are acting out because the woman is gay, then by all means let them have it. But it's not clear, only the sensational writing of this article suggests that.

 

[Beerman462]

Did all the "Rules are rules" parrots read this part?

"As school board president, I don't agree with Carroll banning her from her prom just because of what she wants to wear -- that's discrimination," he said. "As far as I know there is no Monroe City School Board policy saying what someone has to wear to attend the prom. You can't just go making up policies."

Sounds like the faculty found out about her planning to wear a tux and made a bullshit rule up on the spot.

 

[SilentRacoon]

Hardly?

I don't understand. At most, you can say it is justified discrimination.

She will see guys wearing tux or, not required to wear a DRESS for the simple fact they are male instead of female, to the same event.

This is discriminatory to both genders, a female is not required to wear a tuxedo for the mere fact of being a female instead of male.

 

[AudioNoir]

It's fine for a school to have a dress code. The majority do.

What's hilariously pathetic is said dress code forcing one gender to wear the pants and the other to dangle apron strings. Lemme guess-- the women have to go barefoot and serve sandwiches, and the guys have to compare penis sizes and butt heads?

Have your dress code (whether or not this particular one exists is still negligible, as no one seems to be providing it beyond spoken word) but perhaps have it not be a tired 1950s stereotype.

For a school that's suffering to be taken seriously in the academic realm, you'd think they'd at least try to look like they have some grasp on the world today.

 

[Opiate]

Is there any reason why we should uphold the former more than the latter? To me, they both seem equally arbitrary. We can take a consequentialist approach, that gendered clothing reinforces harmful gender roles and therefore gender inequality, but I can also argue that the binary of formal and informal clothing reinforces harmful class and status roles and therefore class-based inequality.

I definitely think there are cases to be made against formal wear. There are certainly cases where it's merited, however; it's the easiest way for a company, for instance, to feel confident you are clean and kempt when you come to work, which is a legitimate consideration.

There are more reasonable arguments to be made for formal wear than there are for gender-specific clothing.

Many traditions are completely arbitrary. A handshake is nothing more than a convenient way to transmit germs, but I still perform it because of its significance as a polite gesture. The student's wish to wear a tuxedo to her prom is arbitrary, because such desires are not based on raw ratiocination, but on a complex history of socialisation and biology. Arbitrariness therefore is neither a sufficient criticism nor justification; it only becomes one or the other when accompanied by further evaluation of the action, and more preferably, a weighing of its consequences.

It is absolutely sufficient criticism. Can you explain why it is not? I don't think anyone in here is saying that the handshake must stay in place as the accepted greeting. If it was challenged and changed, I'd have no problem with that. In fact, if it were changed to the fist bump, I would heartily endorse it.

 

[Azulsky]

I don't really see why a girl wearing a tux would be cause to make it a gender issue.

I guess that is more accepted than a guy wearing a dress.

Just seems like a dress code issue to me and someone is bringing sexual/gender identity into it.

 

[Illithid Dude]

such a weird statement. girls in tuxes have been a common thing for a while.

 

[Siegcram]

Sounds like the faculty found out about her planning to wear a tux and made a bullshit rule up on the spot.

Exactly what I've been saying. Everyone clamoring for the sanctity of tradition can just shut their trap, because it doesn't apply here.

 

[Beerman462]

Exactly what I've been saying. Everyone clamoring for the sanctity of tradition can just shut their trap, because it doesn't apply here.

 

[AudioNoir]

such a weird statement. girls in tuxes have been a common thing for a while.

Yep. Women wearing pantsuits has been around since the damn 70s.

 

[Razmos]

I don't really see why a girl wearing a tux would be cause to make it a gender issue.

Because "You can't wear that, you're a girl!" is a gender issue.

Unless you meant sexuality, which no, isn't relevant here. The article in the OP mentions her sexuality for no real reason at all. The problem here is gender stereotyping and sexism, not homophobia or anything sexuality related.

 

[Izuna]

This is discriminatory to both genders, a female is not required to wear a tuxedo for the mere fact of being a female instead of male.

Oh, just to clarify, I thought that was implied by my post.

"Yes, sweety, we're gonna get you a really expensive dress to wear one night so your boyfriend can fuck you in the limo. Just make sure to use a rubber or take it in the ass so you don't get knocked up like your mother did."

Once upon a time, an ignorant parent stopped their daughter from enjoying prom for this very reason.

(there is no sarcasm)

 

[Bubba T]

It's Louisiana.

Why would you even attempt this? You'll never change the place.

Sorry, feeling useless right now.

Yeah, that's another issue.

The one sentence on how terrible the school is at educating their students is a whole different issue as well, but is buried in this sensationalist article.

 

[Chococat]

As a female, I skipped 3 of my 4 proms cause I hate (to this day) wearing dresses. The one I did go to I felt absolutely ridiculous wearing a dress during an already awkward event. I wear pants in some form 364 days a year. Why for one night should a be forced to wear a dress or not attend?

 

[TCRS]

Nothing. The point is that rules don't get to exist just because. The rules need a valid justification for existence.

Well the justification has already been laid out by plenty of others. Continuation of a tradition, projecting an image, homogeneity etc. Now you can disagree that these are valid arguments (they are valid enough for me) but that doesn't change my original argument though, does it? I will ask again: what makes her so special that the rule has to be changed for her? Why shouldn't she have to follow the rules? Can we always pick and chose? Nothing convincing has been forthcoming other than "it's 2015!" and gender this and gender that which I don't have an issue with frankly.

 

[Thequietone]

It would be awesome if all of the guys showed up in dresses, and all the girls showed up in tuxedos in protest. Won't happen though.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Meh kids should organise the prom themselves.
In Ireland the Debs (prom equivalent) Is organised by the students. There would be no issue then.

Also copious alcohol.

 

[Opiate]

Well the justification has already been laid out by plenty of others. Continuation of a tradition, projecting an image, homogeneity etc. Now you can disagree that these are valid arguments (they are valid enough for me) but that doesn't change my original argument though, does it? I will ask again: what makes her so special that the rule has to be changed for her? Why shouldn't she have to follow the rules? Can we always pick and chose? Nothing convincing has been forthcoming other than "it's 2015!" and gender this and gender that which I don't have an issue with frankly.

Again, appeal to tradition is not a valid argument. I don't mean "I don't like that argument," or "tradition doesn't matter to me, personally," I mean it's explicitly a logical fallacy, as stated. Hopefully other links may help:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Perhaps your position is that you don't care about your arguments being rational or logical. In that case, we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[Siegcram]

Well the justification has already been laid out by plenty of others. Continuation of a tradition, projecting an image, homogeneity etc. Now you can disagree that these are valid arguments (they are valid enough for me) but that doesn't change my original argument though, does it? I will ask again: what makes her so special that the rule has to be changed for her? Why shouldn't she have to follow the rules? Can we always pick and chose? Nothing convincing has been forthcoming other than "it's 2015!" and gender this and gender that which I don't have an issue with frankly.

The rule that girls have to wear dresses has, according to the article no established tradition that you're so keen on. The only required dress code is formal attire, which a tuxedo falls under, regardless of gender of its wearer. So her wearing one would actually not make her special at all if the school would be consistent and to waver due to inherent bigotry of the faculty.

 

[AudioNoir]

Well the justification has already been laid out by plenty of others. Continuation of a tradition, projecting an image, homogeneity etc. Now you can disagree that these are valid arguments (they are valid enough for me) but that doesn't change my original argument though, does it? I will ask again: what makes her so special that the rule has to be changed for her? Why shouldn't she have to follow the rules? Can we always pick and chose? Nothing convincing has been forthcoming other than "it's 2015!" and gender this and gender that which I don't have an issue with frankly.

You would have been an excellent spokesperson when schools were cutting out the black and white washrooms ;') It's tradition! We have an image to uphold! Weh!

 

[slit]

Well the justification has already been laid out by plenty of others. Continuation of a tradition, projecting an image, homogeneity etc. Now you can disagree that these are valid arguments (they are valid enough for me) but that doesn't change my original argument though, does it? I will ask again: what makes her so special that the rule has to be changed for her? Why shouldn't she have to follow the rules? Can we always pick and chose? Nothing convincing has been forthcoming other than "it's 2015!" and gender this and gender that which I don't have an issue with frankly.

Because the changing of this rule harms no one expect for assholes who can't understand that not everybody bases their lives around things like girls are feminine and boys are masculine. If she was transgender would you have a problem with it?

 

[davepoobond]

She should wear a tux anyway, but I also think that prom is in and of itself a great example of something that should be eliminated because it only promotes discriminations ("black prom" and "white prom") and dress codes.

In this case dress codes that may or may not change on the fly to force people into conformity.


Rarely any rule or thing a high school does via tradition has any basis in current common sense and reality.

 

[Hypron]

This legitimately pisses me off. There's absolutely no reason to not allow her to attend that prom wearing a tux. A tux is formal attire.

 

[Kenshin001]

No, I understand this. I agree, traditions you no longer abide become non-traditions.

What I'm asking you to do is justify the tradition reasonably. Why should this tradition continue to exist? The reason can't just be "because it's tradition."

I don't think there is a logical justification. Some people just find the idea of a constant thing comforting. Some people just enjoy traditions and if you suck the significance out of the tradition, if you destroy their traditions it makes them unhappy.

 

[kirby_fox]

Schools need to stop focusing on what the Hell kids wear to school and after school events and start focusing on actually teaching and instructing.

I can't stand how public schools get away with this shit and more.

 

[Saintguine]

Wow, back in 2005 they told the girls they were able to wear pants if they felt uncomfortable wearing dresses. All the girls wore dresses but the option was still there.

Feels weird since I've always taken it for granted since it's like that in Australia.

 

[Azulsky]

Because "You can't wear that, you're a girl!" is a gender issue.

Unless you meant sexuality, which no, isn't relevant here. The article in the OP mentions her sexuality for no real reason at all. The problem here is gender stereotyping and sexism, not homophobia or anything sexuality related.

Right I meant the sexuality bit is kind of tangential(at best) to the real issue.

For reference Monroe Louisiana is ultra socially conservative. Baptist area, dry parish(county), it wasn't socially acceptable to walk down the street holding a girls hand in living memory. Literally Duck Dynasty town.

My best recommendation is that she just get through HS and get dafuq out of there.

I feel like whenever the social justice hammer attempts to swing at places like this we are just making their steel harder.

 

[Kazerei]

Well the justification has already been laid out by plenty of others. Continuation of a tradition, projecting an image, homogeneity etc. Now you can disagree that these are valid arguments (they are valid enough for me) but that doesn't change my original argument though, does it? I will ask again: what makes her so special that the rule has to be changed for her? Why shouldn't she have to follow the rules? Can we always pick and chose? Nothing convincing has been forthcoming other than "it's 2015!" and gender this and gender that which I don't have an issue with frankly.

The rules should be changed because they're discriminatory. Imagine how ridiculous it would be to say "blacks wear this and whites wear that". Gender-specific dress codes have been tradition for so long that we don't think about it as discriminatory, but it is.

The rules should be changed because they don't even reflect modern standards. In the professional world, women wear suits and pants all the damn time. A women wearing a tuxedo isn't even a crazy outlandish idea in this day and age.

The rules should be changed because it will make students happy.

Now what are the reasons the rules should NOT be changed? Tradition? A million traditions have died over the course of history, who gives a shit.

 

[AudioNoir]

Wow, back in 2005 they told the girls they were able to wear pants if they felt uncomfortable wearing dresses. All the girls wore dresses but the option was still there.

Feels weird since I've always taken it for granted since it's like that in Australia.

Same here. Mine was in 2000 (Canada) and you could wear whatever the hell you wanted so long as it was formal. That was the code. Everyone had fun, and no one pooped their pants because a girl didn't stick to antiquated gender roles. Imagine!!

 

[GraveRobberX]

If a straight guy wanted to wear a dress to the prom I think there'd be the same issue so it's not about sexuality, it's about the dress code. Being a lesbian does not preclude a woman from wearing dresses.

Thing is she is adhering to the GODDAMN Dress Code
Be in a Tux or Dress, she chose Tux, that's fucking all, it's her lifestyle being judged and asking her to be shoehorned into a specific role

The old school verbiage that once was Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina in 2015 is not that black and white anymore, much grey has seeped in and people should start accepting it

If a Gay Male Student wanted to wear a dress at the prom, they can do so, cause they are following the guidelines, it's the pre-conceived notion of Boys = Tux, Girls = Dress

Seriously it's the fucking prom, it's not some right of passage with provisions people have to follow to the rules beset from a time long past

 

[JC Lately]

This. Girls, gay and straight alike, were wearing tuxes to proms all the damn time when I was in Highschool in the fucking 90's. Why are going backwards with this shit?

 

[TCRS]

Appeal to tradition is, as stated, not a valid argument. I don't mean "I don't like that argument," or even "it doesn't matter to me, personally," I mean it's explicitly a logical fallacy, as stated. Hopefully other links may help:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

Perhaps your position is that you don't care about your arguments being rational or logical. In that case, we have nothing further to discuss.

We keep talking past each other. You keep asking why the tradition can't be changed. I don't know why it couldn't be changed, it can absolutely be changed. I'm not saying that the dress code is something better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or “always has been done.”

I'm simply saying that we can't pick and chose the rules we have to follow nor can this student. Nothings make her so special that she doesn't have to follow the established rule and make up her own. I have to turn up at work dressed up although no customer ever sees me. I could sit there in T-shirt and jeans. This rules makes absolutely no sense but I don't have a choice, I have to follow it. The dress code doesn't have any justification either other than tradition but that doesn't strike me as reason enough not to follow the rule and make up their own.

One question is whether this rule should exist at all, the other question is that if the rule is already established, a single person can make an exception for him/herself.

The rule that girls have to wear dresses has, according to the article no established tradition that you're so keen on. The only required dress code is formal attire, which a tuxedo falls under, regardless of gender of its wearer. So her wearing one would actually not make her special at all if the school would be consistent and to waver due to inherent bigotry of the faculty.

First of all it says "as far as she knows", second it could very well be that the school established the rule in a more explicit way because it had to be spelled out for that one student while all others saw it as a matter of course.

 

[Kenshin001]

Thing is she is adhering to the GODDAMN Dress Code
Be in a Tux or Dress, she chose Tux, that's fucking all, it's her lifestyle being judged and asking her to be shoehorned into a specific role

The old school verbiage that once was Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina in 2015 is not that black and white anymore, much grey has seeped in and people should start accepting it

If a Gay Male Student wanted to wear a dress at the prom, they can do so, cause they are following the guidelines, it's the pre-conceived notion of Boys = Tux, Girls = Dress

Seriously it's the fucking prom, it's not some right of passage with provisions people have to follow to the rules beset from a time long past

Right, you can argue it's about gender but it's not about her sexual preference. We'd be having this conversation if it were a straight guy wanting to wear a dress.

 

[PhantomHound]

Meh. It's only fabric woven into a certian shape. The idea of gender clothing is a man made concept, we're all just wearing fabric in different shapes.

But if the school doesn't want her to wear it, then she should just follow the rules. It's not a big deal.

 

[Razmos]

We keep talking past each other. You keep asking why the tradition can't be changed. I don't know why it couldn't be changed, it can absolutely be changed. I'm not saying that the dress code is something better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or “always has been done.”

I'm simply saying that we can't pick and chose the rules we have to follow nor can this student. Nothings make her so special that she doesn't have to follow the established rule and make up her own. I have to turn up at work dressed up although no customer ever sees me. I could sit there in T-shirt and jeans. This rules makes absolutely no sense but I don't have a choice, I have to follow it. The dress code doesn't have any justification either other than tradition but that doesn't strike me as reason enough not to follow the rule and make up their own.

Except there is a difference between "tradition" and "rules"

tradition should be differentiated from customs, conventions, laws, norms, routines, rules and similar concepts. Whereas tradition is supposed to be invariable, they are seen as more flexible and subject to innovation and change.

Just a quick wikipedia quote for you there.
You seem under the assumption that the tradition is a rule and that by going against tradition she is breaking said rules, and you are wrong.

She isn't trying to break any rules, she's challenging an outdated way of thinking (a tradition)