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[Musashi Wins!]

Katie Holmes may be beautiful but she must also be BATSHIT INSANE to be involved with someone heavy into Scientology. Gird your loins.

 

[Maxwell House]

Well some people think this Holmes/Cruise thing is just a publicity stunt with no real romance. They both have big movies coming out in a month or so (she is in Batman Returns, he is in War of the Worlds).

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the romance is totally fake.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Look, do you even know how brainwashing works? In reality, mind control can be far far more subtle and insiduous than somebody strapped to a chair with a huge device.

Sure. This means Scientology isn't a religion how?

"buh but Christianity doesn't brainwash people lol"

Assuming that's entirely true, that still doesn't mean Scientology isn't a religion. Scientology is organized belief in the supernatural or spiritual. Scientology is faith. Scientology is religion.

Sorry, the "occult" and cultic organizations are NOT the same.

Sorry, I never said they were. Stop writing your own conclusions in between my lines.

BTW, it also doesn't help to simply say "extremist site" without noticing the various external sources used, many to mainstream news agencies. Oh, and that tax exempt status? http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/essays/nytimes.html

Could you offer a short summary of all that? I don't have the time to read the entire thing right now (most likely your summar with grab my attention and force me to read it anyways)

Look, I entered this thread for a second time to say that Scientology is, in fact, a religion. I provided definition, legal recognition, and comparisons to other religions showing the similarities, and a few of the differences. Many have said it's a complete scam. Well, despite the fact that there's no conclusive proof, and despite the fact that other religions have scammed their followers or 'brainwashed' them into following their turgid promises, that doesn't mean it isn't a religion.

In a quick google search to find a reliable third party source that didn't swing to either extreme, I found this site, authored by a former Scientologist. It's interesting reading, particularly the story of how he joined, quit, and eventually came to level terms with Scientology.

My Time in Scientology

I joined Scientology in 1975. At that time I was a student in Psychology. I had recently awakened to the spiritual realm and found my psychology studies way too materialistic. Scientology attracted me because it had a practical approach and addressed spiritual concerns. It also provided me with a concrete way to "help the world" as part of a community of like-minded dedicated young idealists.

My time on staff was very uplifting. Yes, we were working hard, often far beyond the call of duty, but nothing else in society offered that sense of deep spiritual discovery and sharing, as well as the opportunity to give ourselves 100% to something we really deep down believed in.

After a while however, the dream began to fade. I slowly realized that things were not the way I had thought they were. I became doubtful about the "super power" of "OTs" (advanced Scientologists). I even became doubtful as to whether "Clears" and "OTs" were any different than you and me. When, by chance, I ran into critical material, I began to see that the way I believed in the absolute and exclusive value of Scientology was the same other cultists, like the Moonies, believed in their own paths. You can't have two absolute and exclusive paths, can you? Besides, it was clear to me that these other paths were nothing but wind and silly superstitions, yet still those people clung to them like it was their life. Was I doing the same? It was then that I realized that the reason I believed in the absolute aspect of Scientology was because of constant repetition, the use of authority, and the exploitation of fear, hope and guilt. In parallel to all this, I developed a different philosophical approach based on what I previously knew from other spiritual paths. At this point, my doubts about Scientology were such that I really couldn't stay in the community anymore.

Leaving Scientology was no problem. I am not speaking about the internal struggle one may go through before deciding that he wants to leave. I speak about the myth Scientology critics constantly spin about people being restrained against their will. From all I could observe in my five years on staff at a local and European level as well as during my time in the Guardian Office headquarters in England where I worked for the last other year, these myths are simply untrue. I even made a point to "go through the lines" rather than simply "blow" from the organization. I was interested to see what the outcome would be. Of course, they tried to keep me in the fold. They tried to convince me that I should stay. But my determination was intact and at some point they had no other choice than to just "route" me out.

I then packed my things and rang at my parents' door with suitcases in my hands. I was out of the movement.

 

[Dilbert]

Scientology is organized belief in the supernatural or spiritual. Scientology is faith. Scientology is religion.

Look, I could start praying to my computer monitor and call it a "religion." The word is pretty damn cheap these days. You keep focusing on semantics and totally ignoring the KEY fact of Scientology: IT'S A CULT.

Quite frankly, I don't care WHAT your dictionary says -- any "religion" which keeps some of its beliefs and doctrines secret from the participant is a cult. When you add in the monetary aspects and the extreme control exerted by the leaders in the group, it only cements the case. Hito already said all of this dozens of posts ago, but it didn't seem to reach you.

 

[Azih]

I think this argument is running into slight cross purposes here. Whether Scientology is a 'religion' and whether the Church of Scientology is a manipulative, destructive organisation that uses brainwashing techniques in order to suck money out of its members are two different things.

How closely a criticism of the Church of Scientology can be applied to Scientology however depends on how close the association between the two are. The legal actions taken by the Church of Scientology that mean that breakaway sects can't even use the same name (see the Free Zone people) means that the connection is so close that a criticism of one can be applied to the other.

The same applies to other faiths depending on how much they emphasise belief in the power structure that is set up to administer to the faithful. To be a member of the Catholic faith is to believe in the Catholic Church structure. So criticising the latter is the same thing as criticising the faith itself. The same is true of Mormonism.

The same isn't true for most of the other sects within christianity or any other faiths that don't have a defined power structure. This of course has to be taken on a case by case basis, as they'r e all pretty different.

 

[Hitokage]

Sorry, I never said they were. Stop writing your own conclusions in between my lines.

...you're right. I forgot the context of your claims when you said you were basing your arguments on your study of the occult. Sorry about that.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Random thought. How do some of you view the guilting by the Catholic Church into tithing each week? Does the passing around of the collection plate each Mass not draw a lot of similarities to the extortion Scientology does? I mean, you can say it's volunteery, but is it really if you're lead to believe that not giving is a bad thing? Maybe it's hard to understand, but I see the primary difference between religions in that regard to be the subtlety of their actions. Some are more persuasive than others, but they're all just collection machines using fake teachings from fake deities (shit, there's no such thing as a deity) to guilt people into giving their money and lives to an ultimately worthless cause.

I know it's great fun ragging on Scientology, but I also find it hypocritical to not place other religions under the same scrutiny. Meh. PEACE.

 

[Dilbert]

How do some of you view the guilting by the Catholic Church into tithing each week? Does the passing around of the collection plate each Mass not draw a lot of similarities to the extortion Scientology does?

There is a huge difference between a voluntary donation and being forced to pay large sums of money to take advanced, formerly-secret-from-you "coursework."

 

[Azih]

Back to my first post. You're painting all faiths and all religions with the same brush here. Not only does that force you to ignore the multitude of faiths that DON'T have a hiearchical structure, but it's also putting you in the position of equating "Give us huge sums of money or you won't be enlightened" to "It'd be nice if you gave us what you can spare so we can distribute it to the needy". And I'm not even exaggerating here.

 

[Pimpwerx]

There is a huge difference between a voluntary donation and being forced to pay large sums of money to take advanced, formerly-secret-from-you "coursework."

But taking those advanced secrets is volunteery, not compulsory. You volunteer that money in exchange for rewards (secrets). When you tither at church, you volunteer that money in exchange for rewards (God's good graces). Am I wrong here? PEACE.

 

[Azih]

But taking those advanced secrets is volunteery, not compulsory.

.

Look, do you even know how brainwashing works? In reality, mind control can be far far more subtle and insiduous than somebody strapped to a chair with a huge device. I'll quote Margaret Singer's* Six Conditions For Thought Reform:

"1. Gaining control over a person's time, especially his thinking time and physical environment.
2. Creating a sense of powerlessness, fear and dependency in the recruit, while providing models that demonstrate the new behavior that leadership wants to produce.
3. Manipulating rewards, punishments and experiences in order to supress the recruit's former social behavior and attitudes, including the use of altered states of consciousness to manipulate experience.
4. Manipulating rewards, punishments and experiences in order to elicit behavior and attitudes that leadership wants.
5. Creating a tightly controlled system with a closed system of logic, wherein those who dissent are made to feel as though their questioning indicates that there is something inherently wrong with them. [Personal note: Mormonism layed this on THICK.]
6. Keeping recruits unaware and uninformed that there is an agenda to control or change them. Leadership cannot carry out a thought-reform program with a person's full capacity and informed consent. [Personal note: It doesn't matter whether leadership knows what they are doing or not. Besides, it's usually people in the middle of the ladder who do the grunt work anyway.]"

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

The Daily Radar web site reported that Scientology celebrity Jenna Elfman recently refused to participate in a charity autograph auction. "During the last holiday season, the Dharma & Greg star refused to take part in a celebrity autograph auction for an organization that raised money for the care of children with HIV. As a brainwashed devotee of The Church of Scientology, the bah-humbugy Elfman stated that she couldn't support any organization that raised money for AIDS research or relief because 'AIDS is a state of mind, not a disease.'

http://www.scientology-kills.org/celebrities/elfman.htm

 

[FortNinety]

All I know is that the Scientology church here in NYC offers sandwitches to all interested parties, but I don't think I could stomach all the loony space man dogma for a free lunch.

 

[krypt0nian]

Apparently both Tom and John Travolta think Scientology can "cure" gay.

Not happening, boys. </smooch>

 

[Willco]

All I know is that the Scientology church here in NYC offers sandwitches to all interested parties, but I don't think I could stomach all the loony space man dogma for a free lunch.

That's the thing, you only learn the loony space man dogma after you've been brainwashed. Once they determine that you're "clear" (or capable of being told bullshit because you'll believe anything you say), then they start going in with the body thetans and shit like that. Initially, they come off as a loving church that wants to heal your emotional traumas and shit like that.

 

[Hyoushi]

That's the thing, you only learn the loony space man dogma after you've been brainwashed. Once they determine that you're "clear" (or capable of being told bullshit because you'll believe anything you say), then they start going in with the body thetans and shit like that. Initially, they come off as a loving church that wants to heal your emotional traumas and shit like that.

Exactly. There's a lot of testimonies about this, I recommend Operation Clambake for good readin', like this testimony as a good example.

In recent Scieno news I also liked this little story

 

[krypt0nian]

I love this one:

“MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY. MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MORE MONEY.”

- L. Ron Hubbard, Hubbard Communications Office Policy Letter, 9 March 1972, MS OEC 384

DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! :lol

 

[Particle Physicist]

All I know is that the Scientology church here in NYC offers sandwitches to all interested parties, but I don't think I could stomach all the loony space man dogma for a free lunch.

i can! where is this church?

 

[Willco]

DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! :lol

:lol

 

[Zilch]

But taking those advanced secrets is volunteery, not compulsory. You volunteer that money in exchange for rewards (secrets). When you tither at church, you volunteer that money in exchange for rewards (God's good graces). Am I wrong here? PEACE.

Yes, you are wrong. Tithing has nothing to do with God's opinion of you or your "graces" with Him.

 

[bishoptl]

http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/sixtyminutes/stories/2005_06_05/story_1403.asp

PETER OVERTON: Take a seat.
But today, that famous Cruise control will be tested.

TOM CRUISE: You're stepping over a line now.

PETER OVERTON: Okay.

TOM CRUISE: You're stepping over a line, you know you are. I'm just telling you right now — put your manners back in.

PETER OVERTON: Do you feel discriminated against when people say this is what Scientology is, that you're a bunch of lunatic fringe or whatever?

TOM CRUISE: Peter?

PETER OVERTON: Tom?

TOM CRUISE: No-one's ever said that to me.

PETER OVERTON: No, I mean that perception out there.

TOM CRUISE: But that's not the perception out there. That is absolutely — maybe from your perspective.

PETER OVERTON: This isn't my personal opinion, I'm just saying, how do you feel about that when people...

TOM CRUISE: Well, how would you feel?

PETER OVERTON: If it was my faith, I'd feel really...

TOM CRUISE: Not even your own faith — I find that appalling when people who don't know what they're talking about say things like that. I think it's ... I think it's appalling. I think it's appalling that they're still burning synagogues in France. I think it's appalling how certain Muslims are being treated. I think it's absolutely appalling when we talk about freedom of speech and human rights. I think it's appalling that they electric shock people. I think it's appalling that they drug children. I think it's appalling that they say that there are no solutions for those things. I think it's appalling that people have to live a life of drug addiction when I have personally — personally — helped people get off drugs.

PETER OVERTON: Would you like Nicole to remarry?

TOM CRUISE: Yes. I want Nicole to be happy. That's what I want.

PETER OVERTON: And do you have a relationship where you talk — a parenting relationship — and talk professionally about each other's...

TOM CRUISE: Listen, here's the thing, Peter. You're stepping over a line now. You're stepping over a line, you know you are.

PETER OVERTON: I suppose they're questions that people want to know.

TOM CRUISE: Peter, you want to know. Take responsibility for what you want to know. Don't say what other people… This is a conversation that I'm having with you right now. So I'm just telling you right now, okay, just put your manners back in.

PETER OVERTON: Do you think I was out of line?

TOM CRUISE: Yes, absolutely.

PETER OVERTON: Well, I apologise for that sincerely.

TOM CRUISE: Good, good.

PETER OVERTON: What I call an interesting interview.

TOM CRUISE: Thanks pal. It was terrific. Thank you. Thank you.

PETER OVERTON: It was terrific?

TOM CRUISE: It was terrific.

PETER OVERTON: Even after you told me to learn some manners?

TOM CRUISE: That's alright. You stepped out of line, I whacked you, we got on with it.

PETER OVERTON: Good on you.

TOM CRUISE: Thanks mate.

:lol

 

[Willco]

:lol

YOU'RE STEPPING OVER A LINE!

 

[mattx5]

Tom's behavior in the interview really comes off as agitated, he starts going off on a tangent about how he's helped people get off drugs, when the question had nothing to do with that.

His behavior is bizarre to be sure, but hey, he's allowed to express himself.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I'm going to print this thread out, frame it, and hang it prominently over my headboard.

 

[BigGreenMat]

Yes, you are wrong. Tithing has nothing to do with God's opinion of you or your "graces" with Him.

I think you need to study a bit more history because that is EXACTLY what tithing was for the christian church. You could say 'well that isn't what it was about and the men were twisting it', but that is what happened and it is well known.

 

[Willco]

I think you need to study a bit more history because that is EXACTLY what tithing was for the christian church. You could say 'well that isn't what it was about and the men were twisting it', but that is what happened and it is well known.

You're missing the point. It's well known various religious groups have done some dirty deeds in their history, but Scientology exists today and is destroying people's lives right fucking now. It's not even a religion, it's a goddamn cult whose founder was a fucking science fiction writer turned batshit crazy insane.

It also setup Narconon, a front that is a drug rehab centre that's not accredited by JCAHO or any other major medical organization for that matter, to recruit those who go through its drug rehab process. Its rehab process is not medically sound and can be dangerous, in addition to preying on vunerable people in an effort to promote Scientology beliefs.

I'm sorry, that's fucked up.

 

[Hyoushi]

http://www.xenu.net/archive/OTIII-scholar/

The head of the Galactic
Confederation (76 planets around
larger stars visible from here)
(founded 95,000,000 yrs ago, very space opera)
solved overpopulation (250 billion
or so per planet) -- 178 billion
average) by mass implanting.
He caused people to be brought to
Teegeeack (Earth) and put an H Bomb
on the principal volcanoes (Incident 2)
and then the Pacific area ones
were taken in boxes to Hawaii
and the Atlantic Area ones to
Las Palmas and there "packaged."
His name was Xenu. He used
renegades. Various misleading
data by means of circuits etc.
were placed in the implants.
When through with his crime Loyal Officers
(to the people) captured him
after 6 years of battle
and put him in an electronic
mountain trap where he still
is. "They" are gone. The place (Confed.)
has since been a desert.

That's what's in the original handwritten document that the entire Scieno doctrine hails back to.

An Electronic Mountain Trap.

I rest my case.

 

[fse]

My dad has a friend who was in scientology... he has no money now :|

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

<whoops wrong thread>

 

[Willco]

My dad has a friend who was in scientology... he has no money now :|

This is the story that gets lost in all that celebrity hour bullshit. Celebrities have special counseling centers that cater to them and their needs all the time.

Regular people just get suckered in and lose all their money, sometimes worse, and their woes go unheard by the public because the tabloids, Access Hollywood and whatnot are too busy making all Scientologists out to be rich, successful celebrities. Like Tom Cruise.

 

[BigGreenMat]

You're missing the point. It's well known various religious groups have done some dirty deeds in their history, but Scientology exists today and is destroying people's lives right fucking now. It's not even a religion, it's a goddamn cult whose founder was a fucking science fiction writer turned batshit crazy insane.

It also setup Narconon, a front that is a drug rehab centre that's not accredited by JCAHO or any other major medical organization for that matter, to recruit those who go through its drug rehab process. Its rehab process is not medically sound and can be dangerous, in addition to preying on vunerable people in an effort to promote Scientology beliefs.

I'm sorry, that's fucked up.

Yeah I am not too fond of Scientology, but neither am I of Christianity. Heck one of Bush's key points when he ran for President was to set up and rely on more 'faith-based' initiatives for things such as Drug Rehab which are QUITE similar in principle to what you are describing.

 

[Willco]

Yeah I am not too fond of Scientology, but neither am I of Christianity. Heck one of Bush's key points when he ran for President was to set up and rely on more 'faith-based' initiatives for things such as Drug Rehab which are QUITE similar in principle to what you are describing.

The difference between drug and alcohol rehab programs sponsored by faith based organization and Narconon, is you don't have to pay for programs like AA or NA (whereas you have to with Narconon), and their rehab programs are both medically sound and proven. Narconon can be dangerous and its foundations are written in science psycho babble by L Ron Hubbard.

You're not going to get me to say that religions are awesome and the way to go, as I'm not a proponent of any organized religion, but I will say that I see good things come out religions like Christianity, Islam, Judiasm and - hell! - even Mormonism. The only good thing to come out of Scientology is that Mission: Impossible 3 probably won't get made since Cruise is acting like such a whack job.