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[Walpurgis]

I'm British.

LOL

 

[Lashley]

WTF is happening to Germany

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Europe has open borders, so the actions of one country letting in people has a direct consequence for other countries as well. If for example Spain just started saying: "We don't check our borders anymore, come right in all" then the other EU countries would rightfully have a problem with that.

The people going to Germany would also needed to pass through multiple other countries.

Sure but that's a problem not a law that was broken.

Are you fucking kidding me? We are not the U.S.E. yet. Merkel has to respect the borders of all European states no matter what the moral situation looks like. When she announced that Germany will basically "open the borders" it was clear as daylight that those who will follow the call will have to go through several European countries. This is unacceptable on so many levels! Let's not even talk about her -after realizing what she has done- going to the shadiest guy in Europe to solve the problem.

So you're saying she should respect other countries' borders by disregarding the borders of her own country? She has the right open borders and accepting refugees that get there.to It's acceptable because those other countries, including my own, disregarded their moral obligation.

She didn't go to Erdogan the EU did. Merkel certainly has power but as you said we aren't the USE yet.

Agreed.

I guess I'll call my brother and tell him, his safety and life is worth less than his coworker's

 

[Jacobi]

Indeed we must make a strong Reich with enough room for the German people to live comfortably and safely surrounded by only German culture to avoid the contamination of German society.
It's the ultimate mission of the German state and no guilt tripping by politically correct cultural Marxists will stop us.

Having migration/refugee policies that makes sense doesn't equal national-socialism

edit: Oh btw Zizek agrees with that

 

[Chairmanchuck]

You might not like the site, but all those incidents are sourced.

I can check all the regional parts of magazines and could make such an article after about 1 week where a German does shit like that...

A few weeks ago a (German) father killed his whole family in my hometown. No NeoGAF thread about that or no articles about that.
2 months ago (German) teenagers tried to stab each other with knives at our central station. No NeoGAF thread about that.
About 3 months ago a (German) son killed his mom in my hometown. No NeoGAF thread about that.

And these are just from my (small, 120.000 citizens) hometown.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Germans doing crime in Germany is different than letting in almost 2 million migrants and refugees and not expecting this. The very first and primary goal of any elected leader of a country is to protect their own people first and worry about the others next. Otherwise you have failed as a leader. This is what makes a country a country. The day you care more about Non-Germans over Germans is the day you aren't a leader for Germany.

Also you are wrong in your belief that refugees will commit little crime. Historically, no matter what ethnic group it has been, mass waves of migration and demgraphic change have created tons of chaos and upheaval.

What will happen is, once the dust settles of the migration movement. You will have hundreds of thousands or millions of people raised in a largely different culture, many are uneducated or underskilled and will not find work creating a permanent underclass of people. They will live at or below the poverty level. Their isolation will create slums where only they will congregate. Humans have to eat and want to help their family and so if they cannot find stable or good paying work they will steal and commit low level crimes. This has been seen all the time. Take a look at the waves of Italian immigrants to the US. Take a look at after Partition in India and Pakistan what it was like. Beyond this wave of migrants they will have children and their children will have children. They will grow up in these slums. They will struggle between to nationalities and identities. You're seeing a lot of lone wolf attacks from people born and raised here but who grow up hating the new place right? How they become radicalized. This isn't a new phenomena.

If you are Chancellor of Germany, your goal is to protect Germans from risk, that is first and paramount. The fact you don't really understand this is why you are oblivious to the fact ultranationalism and far right governments are propping up all over.

i disagree. its the german constitution that dictates what a governments primary goal is not some random internet post.

protection of life is one of such constitutional rights but also the right to assylum is another. the constitution does not say you have to rank one higher than the other.

 

[justjohn]

Indeed we must make a strong Reich with enough room for the German people to live comfortably and safely surrounded by only German culture to avoid the contamination of German society.
It's the ultimate mission of the German state and no guilt tripping by politically correct cultural Marxists will stop us.

If that's what you got from that post then well done.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Sure but that's a problem not a law that was broken.

The agreement within the EU until then was to have the outer countries handle their borders for all. Of course this is an unfair agreement and it should have been changed long ago, by pooling together resources. But at the moment Merkel made her action by saying all refugees from Syria were welcome, that was not a smart thing to do either way.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Immigrants in general however are over represented in crime statistics.

And so are poor, uneducated people without prospects. Refugees are usually all that.
So thats no surprise and it would be ridiculous to expect otherwise.

 

[cyba89]

So all these cases are fake?

They are not but you said refugee crime rates are much higher and I don't see any comparison to german citizen crimes on that shit website.

Can you provide an actually reputable source that includes that?

If you don't have any stop spreading your racist bullshit here.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Having migration/refugee policies that makes sense doesn't equal national-socialism

edit: Oh btw Zizek agrees with that

you would have to change the constitution first

 

[norinrad]

Germans doing crime in Germany is different than letting in almost 2 million migrants and refugees and not expecting this. The very first and primary goal of any elected leader of a country is to protect their own people first and worry about the others next. Otherwise you have failed as a leader. This is what makes a country a country. The day you care more about Non-Germans over Germans is the day you aren't a leader for Germany.

Also you are wrong in your belief that refugees will commit little crime. Historically, no matter what ethnic group it has been, mass waves of migration and demgraphic change have created tons of chaos and upheaval.

What will happen is, once the dust settles of the migration movement. You will have hundreds of thousands or millions of people raised in a largely different culture, many are uneducated or underskilled and will not find work creating a permanent underclass of people. They will live at or below the poverty level. Their isolation will create slums where only they will congregate. Humans have to eat and want to help their family and so if they cannot find stable or good paying work they will steal and commit low level crimes. This has been seen all the time. Take a look at the waves of Italian immigrants to the US. Take a look at after Partition in India and Pakistan what it was like. Beyond this wave of migrants they will have children and their children will have children. They will grow up in these slums. They will struggle between to nationalities and identities. You're seeing a lot of lone wolf attacks from people born and raised here but who grow up hating the new place right? How they become radicalized. This isn't a new phenomena.

If you are Chancellor of Germany, your goal is to protect Germans from risk, that is first and paramount. The fact you don't really understand this is why you are oblivious to the fact ultranationalism and far right governments are propping up all over.

Where does it say she allowed 2 million people into Germany? She also did not make that decision alone. Germany is a democratic country and without other parties, human right groups etc all being in agreement. She would have not made that decision. Quit blaming everything on her.

 

[Condom]

Having migration/refugee policies that makes sense doesn't equal national-socialism

edit: Oh btw Zizek agrees with that

Everybody agrees with that. What makes sense differs per person though.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The agreement within the EU until then was to have the outer countries handle their borders for all. Of course this is an unfair agreement and it should have been changed long ago, by pooling together resources. But at the moment Merkel made her action by saying all refugees from Syria were welcome, that was not a smart thing to do either way.

The agreement is that they are to seek asylum in the country they are first caught / registered / apprehended. To circumvent that countries just let people through unhindered and documented.
And yes that should have been changed long ago but it's only ever about solidarity when you can profit from it in the EU.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And so are poor, uneducated people without prospects. Refugees are usually all that.
So thats no surprise and it would be ridiculous to expect otherwise.

Yes, and that is a problem. Adding more people in a high risk group comes with problems and people can then rightfully question their government if that is such a good idea to do.

If there is a problem, you generally don't want to add to it and make it worse.

However, refugees need to be helped so the innocent don't suffer. That is why we should have helped them mostly in the region itself where possible and go through the UN to make a fair distribution off them towards Europe, the US and other countries capable of helping instead of having only a few carry an unfair burden, which we are now seeing the results of throughout Europe.

The agreement is that they are to seek asylum in the country they are first caught / registered / apprehended. To circumvent that countries just let people through unhindered and documented.
And yes that should have been changed long ago but it's only ever about solidarity when you can profit from it in the EU.

True, but letting people just pass unhindered and undocumented is something no sane country should have done also. It's a lot of problems stacked upon each other and nobody wanted to deal with the mess.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

The agreement within the EU until then was to have the outer countries handle their borders for all. Of course this is an unfair agreement and it should have been changed long ago, by pooling together resources. But at the moment Merkel made her action by saying all refugees from Syria were welcome, that was not a smart thing to do either way.

It probably saved a lot of lifes so I'd file that under smart.

 

[Jacobi]

And so are poor, uneducated people without prospects. Refugees are usually all that.
So thats no surprise and it would be ridiculous to expect otherwise.

Well yes, but that just leads to "refugees are more criminal".
Because refugees are bound to be jobless, even if you spend as much money as Sweden does for them. We don't have a lot of jobs for uneducted people that don't speak the language.

 

[mario_O]

Having migration/refugee policies that makes sense doesn't equal national-socialism

edit: Oh btw Zizek agrees with that

What "makes sense" to you? letting thousands of refugees, who are escaping war, die?

 

[justjohn]

LOL

Can't blame you. We're a bit of a laughing stock right now. Great contribution to the thread btw.

 

[Art Teitlebaum]

It probably saved a lot of lifes so I'd file that under smart.

Absolutely this. Act of humanity that every empathetic citizen should be proud of.
Right-wing nutjobs surely have different opinion about that.

 

[nampad]

What a fucking week. My fiancee is already super worried about me and the whole situation in Germany. She also has different views than me on the whole refugee situation and stories like this just intensify her views.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Yes, and that is a problem. Adding more people in a high risk group comes with problems and people can then rightfully question their government if that is such a good idea to do.

If there is a problem, you generally don't want to add to it and make it worse.

However, refugees need to be helped so the innocent don't suffer. That is why we should have helped them mostly in the region itself where possible and go through the UN to make a fair distribution off them towards Europe, the US and other countries capable of helping instead of having only a few carry an unfair burden, which we are now seeing the results of throughout Europe.

Adding people to the poor demographics is a minor problem compared to the suffering thats causing these people to flee their homelands.

Its also not like the government is ignoring that. There is a lot of investment in program to help these people get and education, get prospects to be able to leave the poor demographic.

Of course it would be better if more countries would take in their fair share, but if they don't want to because their politicians are scared of a xenophobic backlash of the voters, thats not a good reason for germany not to help, too.

 

[Soldiussnaku]

Oh believe me the crime rate of refugees are much higher.

Sexual harassment alone from refugees is a daily basis now.

[NEED CITATION]

 

[Chairmanchuck]

What a fucking week. My fiancee is already super worried about me and the whole situation in Germany. She also has different views than me on the whole refugee situation and stories like this just intensify her views.

Just show her stories that German do it too.
Like I said. Read the regional part of your newspaper and you see "tons" of cases like that...

I am not exactly sure why it becomes a big deal when a refugee or someone with a migration background does it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It probably saved a lot of lifes so I'd file that under smart.

It also caused a lot of suffering, people being abused by smugglers along the way, women being raped by them, boats with hundreds of refugees being sunk. Advocating for people to make a dangerous journey without giving them proper and safe means to do it is not smart.

There are also plenty of stories of people who were safe in refugee camps or in Turkey, who made the trip. Or even of people from Africa making it without knowing what they would be getting in to. It's not a choice between life or die, there is a lot of grey area between it.

Adding people to the poor demographics is a minor problem compared to the suffering thats causing these people to flee their homelands.

Its also not like the government is ignoring that. There is a lot of investment in program to help these people get and education, get prospects to be able to leave the poor demographic.

Of course it would be better if more countries would take in their fair share, but if they don't want to because their politicians are scared of a xenophobic backlash of the voters, thats not a good reason for germany not to help, too.

It is about proportions. It's great Germany wants to help people. But there is a limit and that seems to have been reached about now, or even several months ago.

 

[justjohn]

What "makes sense" to you? letting thousands of refugees, who are escaping war, die?

And the only way they could've avoided death was obviously to travel all the way from the Middle East to the heart of Europe, bypassing countless safe countries.

 

[Jacobi]

What "makes sense" to you? letting thousands of refugees, who are escaping war, die?

Most of them already were in refugee camps in Turkey or somewhere else.

If you're morally consistent you should take in refugees from all war zones or repressive states and that would amount to tens of millions if you include Africa.

So, no, that doesn't make sense to me. Build and support refugee camps outside of EU how Austria's minister Kurz proposed.

 

[SporeCrawler]

I can check all the regional parts of magazines and could make such an article after about 1 week where a German does shit like that...

A few weeks ago a (German) father killed his whole family in my hometown. No NeoGAF thread about that or no articles about that.
2 months ago (German) teenagers tried to stab each other with knives at our central station. No NeoGAF thread about that.
About 3 months ago a (German) son killed his mom in my hometown. No NeoGAF thread about that.

And these are just from my (small, 120.000 citizens) hometown.

yeah i also remember how on new years eve this year a man randomly shot and killed a teenage girl but he was german so it was hardly news. the incidents in cologne however... (not saying that what those people did was okay. but at least nobody died)

 

[vityaz]

Doubt you'd see this pop up on Gaf if it wasn't a refugee

I'd say it mostly because of recent attacks in Europe. I'm quite sure it would get attention even if the criminal was an ethnic german/whatever.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Well yes, but that just leads to "refugees are more criminal".
Because refugees are bound to be jobless, even if you spend as much money as Sweden does for them. We don't have a lot of jobs for uneducted people that don't speak the language.

Thats why there are programs in place to change the "uneducated" and "don't speak the language" part.
Of course this will take some time.

 

[Des0lar]

Thanks.

But i guess many just gonna continue to call me asshole and a fear monger and call these things coincidence that its all refugees.

I wonder how many of those reports source these kind of sources:

http://hoaxmap.org

Right-wing media in Europa has started viral news stories about "criminal refugees" which just source each other (and no real source, but made to look like that) in an attempt to rile up the population.

 

[Fantastapotamus]

What "makes sense" to you? letting thousands of refugees, who are escaping war, die?

But a couple of them might do something criminal in Germany. Better just let them all die. You know, to protect German citizens

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Really? That's just from one day:
http://www.freiezeiten.net/19-juli-asylsommer-2016-dutzende-angriffe-auf-frauen

Each news has a source on that site. Just click on the city name

I have. Unfortunately. My eyes are bleeding from this website.

Each source states foreign looking perpetrators, mostly "looking southern".

I think maybe two sources have confirmed its refugees. Thats fucking borderline racist profiling considering the news title is "Asylsommer". (refugee summer)

Even in one case, two africans (again, not confirmed refugees) groped a woman and a fucking Syrian guy came to help her.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

yeah i also remember how on new years eve this year a man randomly shot and killed a teenage girl but he was german so it was hardly news. the incidents in cologne however... (not saying that what those people did was okay. but at least nobody died)

And thats the big problem. Whenever a migrant does shit like this or a refugee, you see Spiegel Online article, Focus etc. soon after. But if a German would do shit like that, you will only find it in the regional part of your newspaper.

Like I said. If I open a thread on NeoGAF about that attempted stabbing of (German) teenagers at my central station, no one would care.
If somehow it says "refugee teenagers tried to stab each other", soon "everyone" in Germany will know about that...

And I am saying that as someone who doesnt actually like how Germany dealt with the whole crisis...

 

[YianGaruga]

And the only way they could've avoided death was obviously to travel all the way from the Middle East to the heart of Europe, bypassing countless safe countries.

These countries didn't want them and tried everything they could to keep them out

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

It also caused a lot of suffering, people being abused by smugglers along the way, women being raped by them, boats with hundreds of refugees being sunk. Advocating for people to make a dangerous journey without giving them proper and safe means to do it is not smart.

All that was already the case before.

It is about proportions. It's great Germany wants to help people. But there is a limit and that seems to have been reached about now, or even several months ago.

Why do you think the limit is reached?
There is no indication for that whatsoever.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And thats the big problem. Whenever a migrant does shit like this or a refugee, you see Spiegel Online article, Focus etc. soon after. But if a German would do shit like that, you will only find it in the regional part of your newspaper.

Like I said. If I open a thread on NeoGAF about that attempted stabbing of (German) teenagers at my central station, no one would care.
If somehow it says "refugee teenagers tried to stab each other", soon "everyone" in Germany will know about that...

And I am saying that as someone who doesnt actually like how Germany dealt with the whole crisis...

Depends on the type of attack. With this one, it made the headlines even before the background of the attacker was known. It fits a pattern of senseless violence going through Europe lately (Nice, the train attack in Germany, Munich), so you'll get reports about it going around the world right away.

All that was already the case before.


Why do you think the limit is reached?
There is no indication for that whatsoever.

You don't think the the perception of an open invitation from the government of Germany that they would allow anybody in who came knocking contributed to the rise of refugees trying to make the trip to Germany? Yes, there were people making those journeys already. That doesn't mean you should encourage more to do it.

There seems to be growing push back from the population towards the refugee policies, which indicate the people of Germany feel that the limit is being reached. Add to that the amount of money needed, the proportion between population and amount of refugees, and you can see that it is getting to be a bit much.

 

[justjohn]

All that was already the case before.


Why do you think the limit is reached?
There is no indication for that whatsoever.

Wow. Seriously I understand Gaf is left leaning but some of you really need to join the real world.

 

[MMaRsu]

They are not but you said refugee crime rates are much higher and I don't see any comparison to german citizen crimes on that shit website.

Can you provide an actually reputable source that includes that?

If you don't have any stop spreading your racist bullshit here.

Can you provide me information and stats that prove the opposite?

I think its obvious that a lot of men from undeveloped countries are frustrated about many things. Sex being one of them. Ive seen countless reports about refugees attacking women in centers, bathhouses etc.

How are you a damn racist for saying that? How about the left who just want to obfuscate information and in some cases leave out their heritage ( not perse in germany )

But honestly this is terrible news. She was pregnant too . And he was known to the police.. For what?

 

[Condom]

And the only way they could've avoided death was obviously to travel all the way from the Middle East to the heart of Europe, bypassing countless safe countries.

Having no social security or job opportunities as a refugee is not being safe. Millions are doing what you suggest right now and they are suffering every day of their lives.

Being safe is more than just not being shot at. This is something people must understand before we can start a real program to better the lives of the millions of refugees around the world.

Either you have a real alternative to the current treaties or you are just closing your eyes for the reality these people live in.

 

[Jacobi]

All that was already the case before.


Why do you think the limit is reached?
There is no indication for that whatsoever.

Without unpaid people helping, the limit would have been reached a long time ago.
The refugees right now cost us 100 billion per year afaik.
A single lone minority refugee costs 5000€ a month.
At some point the people who earn money and pay taxes will flee the country.

 

[YianGaruga]

Wow. Seriously I understand Gaf is left leaning but some of you really need to join the real world.

says the guy who isn't even actually in Germany

Without unpaid people helping, the limit would have been reached a long time ago.
The refugees right now cost us 100 billion per year afaik.
A single lone minority refugee costs 5000€ a month.
At some point the people who earn money and pay taxes will flee the country.

And yet Germany still has a balanced budget and no new debt

Safe to say that money isn't an issue for Germany

 

[Markoman]

Sure but that's a problem not a law that was broken.



So you're saying she should respect other countries' borders by disregarding the borders of her own country? She has the right open borders and accepting refugees that get there.to It's acceptable because those other countries, including my own, disregarded their moral obligation.

She didn't go to Erdogan the EU did. Merkel certainly has power but as you said we aren't the USE yet.



I guess I'll call my brother and tell him, his safety and life is worth less than his coworker's

So, you're from Austria, I guess.
Please mate, show me the exact paragraph in the European constitution that says that every international law may be circumvented by moral obligations.

Spoiler

Oopsy, it doesn't exist

I don't know about the Austrian constitution, but the German constitution says that one of the top commissions for all administrations is to protect the citizens. Seehofer brought that up after the situation was getting out of hand: Germany at one point was not able to protect, secure and controll it's own borders against non-justified immigration. Period. This is not a dicussion about whether or not we should help those who are in need!

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Depends on the type of attack. With this one, it made the headlines even before the background of the attacker was known. It fits a pattern of senseless violence going through Europe lately (Nice, the train attack in Germany, Munich), so you'll get reports about it going around the world right away.

Reguees and IS are the hot topics right now.
We've seen a steep decline in interest in the munich story as soon at it was clear that this wasn't a refugee and also not IS or in any form religiously motivated.
If this had been ISIS you bet your ass CNN would still be talking about it all day.

The fearmongering is working.

 

[andythinkpad]

Since I am not German I really don't care if Germany wants to accept more refugees. But it's funny to me that people act surprised or angry in these kind of attack news. This is the new normal.

 

[Stinkles]

Wow. Seriously I understand Gaf is left leaning but some of you really need to join the real world.

Nothing more left leaning than giving a shit about people fleeing bombing, torture, rape and murder.

 

[nampad]

Just show her stories that German do it too.
Like I said. Read the regional part of your newspaper and you see "tons" of cases like that...

I am not exactly sure why it becomes a big deal when a refugee or someone with a migration background does it.

Well, I am not afraid of the refugees but she is from Asia and I feel the whole refugee and ISIS situation is shown differently there in the media as well as cultural differences being at play.

Germans doing crime in Germany is different than letting in almost 2 million migrants and refugees and not expecting this. The very first and primary goal of any elected leader of a country is to protect their own people first and worry about the others next. Otherwise you have failed as a leader. This is what makes a country a country. The day you care more about Non-Germans over Germans is the day you aren't a leader for Germany.

Also you are wrong in your belief that refugees will commit little crime. Historically, no matter what ethnic group it has been, mass waves of migration and demgraphic change have created tons of chaos and upheaval.

What will happen is, once the dust settles of the migration movement. You will have hundreds of thousands or millions of people raised in a largely different culture, many are uneducated or underskilled and will not find work creating a permanent underclass of people. They will live at or below the poverty level. Their isolation will create slums where only they will congregate. Humans have to eat and want to help their family and so if they cannot find stable or good paying work they will steal and commit low level crimes. This has been seen all the time. Take a look at the waves of Italian immigrants to the US. Take a look at after Partition in India and Pakistan what it was like. Beyond this wave of migrants they will have children and their children will have children. They will grow up in these slums. They will struggle between to nationalities and identities. You're seeing a lot of lone wolf attacks from people born and raised here but who grow up hating the new place right? How they become radicalized. This isn't a new phenomena.

If you are Chancellor of Germany, your goal is to protect Germans from risk, that is first and paramount. The fact you don't really understand this is why you are oblivious to the fact ultranationalism and far right governments are propping up all over.

Over 30 years ago many Vietnamese refugees came to Germany. Many of them were uneducated and underskilled.
When you look at those families now most of them are pretty well off. Their kids go to university most of the times and get medial or engineering degrees.

It is a matter of integration, where Germany is admittedly lacking for quite some time now. I also believe part of the blame lies with the immigrants itself who don't want to integrate well though.

 

[His Majesty]

Having no social security or job opportunities as a refugee is not being safe. Millions are doing what you suggest right now and they are suffering every day of their lives.

Being safe is more than just not being shot at. This is something people must understand before we can start a real program to better the lives of the millions of refugees around the world.

Either you have a real alternative to the current treaties or you are just closing your eyes for the reality these people live in.

Refugees who migrate to another country because of job opportunities are called economic migrants.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Wow. Seriously I understand Gaf is left leaning but some of you really need to join the real world.

Tell that to 51% of your country first.

 

[G.ZZZ]

Most of them already were in refugee camps in Turkey or somewhere else.

If you're morally consistent you should take in refugees from all war zones or repressive states and that would amount to tens of millions if you include Africa.

So, no, that doesn't make sense to me. Build and support refugee camps outside of EU how Austria's minister Kurz proposed.

Pretty much.

Also taking in immigrant in an economically dead continent like europe seems a bad move. 40% Unemployed Youth in Italy and Spain. What do you think half a million refugees can do here? Seriously. Natives can survive on the money of their families, refugees can't.

A much more thoughtful foreign policy is what we needed for the longest time. Stop selling weapons to countries in wars, stop invading people, stop bombing them. But we're too bounded by interests to do that, especially america, sadly.