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[CadetMahoney]

Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Is it safe to say the media damage controls and has an agenda with non-reporting and downplaying?

If they do things like this just because of the race of the criminals I imagine they have no issues if they had had some direct incentive/orders.

 

[daniels]

Is it safe to say the media damage controls and has an agenda with non-reporting and downplaying?

If they do things like this just because of the race of the criminals I imagine they have no issues if they had had some direct incentive/orders.

I kinda believe they actually have good intentions and probably try to leave details out to prevent the far right to get more support and i guess thats why they now try to find comparisons, thing is you just piss off people by lying and maybe even make it worse http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/cologne-se...nophobes-will-write-their-own-history-1537247

Also they got called out by other journalists so its not everyone and to be honest there is EVEN more insane stuff out there example:

 

[patapuf]

Is it safe to say the media damage controls and has an agenda with non-reporting and downplaying?

If they do things like this just because of the race of the criminals I imagine they have no issues if they had had some direct incentive/orders.

I think it's more a case of a bit of denial.

Much of the people downplaying here have spent a long time defending people in need against wrong/disproportionate accusations. In many cases they've also suffered under many of the prejudices/attitudes more on on the more extreme rightwing like to propagate.

You don't want their narrative to win, and you are afraid that if you agree to this tiny bit, they'll just take it all and all the progress made is lost (or you have to question/differentiate some of you positions, at least a little bit).

 

[Amalthea]

I don't want to imagine what happens to women and children in the refugee centers. The worst scenario would be that the left either denies those problems too or the right don't care or are actually cool with that. In the end both ideologies are just having a piss fight with each other while the actual problem doesn't really get handled.

 

[GeordieMark]

I kinda believe they actually have good intentions and probably try to leave details out to prevent the far right to get more support and i guess thats why they now try to find comparisons, thing is you just piss off people by lying and maybe even make it worse http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/cologne-se...nophobes-will-write-their-own-history-1537247

Also they got called out by other journalists so its not everyone and to be honest there is EVEN more insane stuff out there example:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Dr Alan Grant, Jurassic Park 3

 

[patapuf]

I don't want to imagine what happens to women and children in the refugee centers. The worst scenario would be that the left either denies those problems too or the right don't care or are actually cool with that. In the end both ideologies are just having a piss fight with each other while the actual problem doesn't really get handled.

My biggest "problem" with the way the debate has been going is a big lack of pragmatism and for lack of a better word "common sense" when proposing solutions. One side keeps preaching everything will be fine if you just throw money at the problem, while other bemoans the end of western culture and that the best solution is to kick half of them out again or at least, only focuses on repression.

But i guess part of that is also the short timefrime a lot of this has happened in, and finding good solutions takes time.

 

[Kathian]

My biggest "problem" with the way the debate has been going is a big lack of pragmatism and for lack of a better word "common sense" when proposing solutions. One side keeps preaching everything will be fine if you just throw money at the problem, while other bemoans the end of western culture and that the best solution is to kick half of them out again or at least, only focuses on repression.

But i guess part of that is also the short timefrime a lot of this has happened in, and finding good solutions takes time.

TBF the one sensible thing David Cameron has ever done policy wise has been taking people directly from camps rather than off other countries doorsteps. This allows them to target people - and frankly less lives are lost trying to reach Britain than Germany.

The countries then could fund these camps - which the UK cannot do alone.

 

[His Majesty]

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

That Jimmy Dore guy certainly is a comedian. What's up with all the rape apoligism? Is this a parody site?

 

[Joni]

TBF the one sensible thing David Cameron has ever done policy wise has been taking people directly from camps rather than off other countries doorsteps. This allows them to target people - and frankly less lives are lost trying to reach Britain than Germany.

Considering the jungles in Calais and Dunkirk, I doubt they are not trying to reach the UK. They are just failing and getting stuck in France.

 

[dapperbandit]

All this stuff with the media concealing or obfuscating the nature of these events just makes you think things are worse than you know, because while they couldn't suppress this story they've likely made other stories disappear.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Still you even start to hear this from "feminists" on social media, in TV! and from mainstream media (ARD, ZDF trending tweet and so one)..

It apparently really, REALLY hurts some people that the censorship didn't work and that the crimes where committed by the "wrong" men .. to the point even the FAZ is pissed off and asking wtf is going on...
http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...nd-falsche-zahlen-von-der-wiesn-14004617.html

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

Riddled with brain parasites.

 

[HolySheep]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Still you even start to hear this from "feminists" on social media, in TV! and from mainstream media (ARD, ZDF trending tweet and so one)..

It apparently really, REALLY hurts some people that the censorship didn't work and that the crimes where committed by the "wrong" men .. to the point even the FAZ is pissed off and asking wtf is going on...
http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...nd-falsche-zahlen-von-der-wiesn-14004617.html

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

Lying about it will get us nowhere... Swedish police are now instructed not to reveal color of skin or etniticity fearing that it will lead to racisms.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/s...ppgi-hudfarge-hoeyde-og-etnisitet/a/23595031/

The problem with this is that this may just drive youths into the right wing extremists arms. Seeing that their claims about biased left-wing media are not only claims anymore. Attacks of this scale will get out weither the police report it or not...

 

[DragonSworne]

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

Damn, that video. They just gloss over the very real problem that Islam has with extremism and how extremists in that religion are propped up by governments and and rich special interests. The extremisms in other religions compared to the extremists in Islam aren't comparable.

They go on and on about nuance but jump over themselves to be the most blind toward extremism.

It's like progressives refuse to logically look at the root cause of extremism because the far right villains Muslims as a whole. Just because one group does something wrong doesn'the mean you ignore the issue.

 

[TM94]

Kinda weird how the usual suspects on here have been been absent in this thread?

Lol.

 

[nynt9]

Damn, that video. They just gloss over the very real problem that Islam has with extremism and how extremists in that religion are propped up by governments and and rich special interests. The extremisms in other religions compared to the extremists in Islam aren't comparable.

They go on and on about nuance but jump over themselves to be the most blind toward extremism.

It's like progressives refuse to logically look at the root cause of extremism because the far right villains Muslims as a whole. Just because one group does something wrong doesn'the mean you ignore the issue.

It's the cognitive dissonance caused by the clash of two core left values: women's rights and being against the islamophobia of the right. It seems that a lot of these people care more about being opposed to the right than they actually care about women's rights.

The conversation about Islam and its problems is very difficult to have as it requires calm heads from all sides and a lot of information/understanding, and these people just sidestep that instead of pointing out the clash they have within their own ideologies and discussing how to reconcile these.

 

[michaelius]

TBF the one sensible thing David Cameron has ever done policy wise has been taking people directly from camps rather than off other countries doorsteps. This allows them to target people - and frankly less lives are lost trying to reach Britain than Germany.

The countries then could fund these camps - which the UK cannot do alone.

UK, Canada and USA are real winners here - they will only take families which greatly reduces any kind of possible problems and increases chances of them integrating into society while Germany thanks to Angela stupid invitation will get milions of mostly single male refugees who were strong and wealthy enough to get to Europe which can turn into demographic disaster not to mention possiblity of undercover ISIS agents getting together with them.

 

[El Topo]

I see daniels is still spreading his inane censorship conspiracy theories, except it seems he has shifted the goalpost a bit. Of course people make mistakes, of course some people lie, of course sometimes people have an agenda (and the last two criticisms seem mostly aimed at "(net) feminists" in the article), that in no way supports your - with all due respect, I do not mean to offend you personally - delusional media censorship conspiracy.

These past days you have made multiple claims regarding (German-speaking) media, quite a few were downright wrong (e.g. regarding ORF), some even contradictory ("Media is not publishing this due to self-censorship"/"List is true, even SPON is reporting it"), most not backed by any evidence. I don't recall you ever correcting yourself regarding this, nor do you seem to be intent on providing viewpoints that go against your ideologies.

Does all this mean, following your logic, that these were deliberate lies of yours in an attempt to further an agenda? I normally wouldn't care much, after all even the "Jet fuel can't melt steel beams" belief has not disappeared completely, but bullshit like yours makes an actual media discussion difficult. A discussion about what went wrong in coverage, free of "They're lying!!!" shouts. A discussion that is ignored every single time media fucks up.

Edit:
I have to correct myself. You have at least gone back quite a bit from the claims from a few days ago and at least in this thread have explained yourself better, as evidenced by this post. I'm glad about that. I won't correct the original post (since that always feels like one is hiding a mistake), but at least I have to apologize for parts of it..

It's the cognitive dissonance caused by the clash of two core left values: women's rights and being against the islamophobia of the right. It seems that a lot of these people care more about being opposed to the right than they actually care about women's rights.

I don't think they're not interested in women's rights, they most certainly are, but it's certainly difficult for these groups to find an appropriate stance, see e.g. also this German article. It's not surprising if people are intent on not getting lumped into a group with "concerned citizens".

 

[Kinokou]

The US (and Canada) probably won't have much problems, since they take in families mostly, do screening before they are brought over and only take Syrian refugees. Europe is dealing with much larger numbers, mostly young men and people from other countries trying to abuse the situation by getting in. The attackers arrested in Cologne for example ore mostly Algerian and Moroccan, two stable Northern African countries.

With the husband from the NYT article letting his wife get repeatedly raped to get the family into Germany it doesn't sound so rosy any more when people say "... take families only ..."

Screening is probably helpful though, if the US is as strict as the impression I have you won't let in anyone unless they are completely spotless.

Lying about it will get us nowhere... Swedish police are now instructed not to reveal color of skin or etniticity fearing that it will lead to racisms.

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/s...ppgi-hudfarge-hoeyde-og-etnisitet/a/23595031/

The problem with this is that this may just drive youths into the right wing extremists arms. Seeing that their claims about biased left-wing media are not only claims anymore. Attacks of this scale will get out weither the police report it or not...

This can't be good at all. The only thing worse than "the foul immigrants did this" on a relevant crime is "the foul immigrants must have done this!" flooding the comment feed of every single crime, and by proxy elevating ethnic swedes to some kind of angles who could never do wrong. Or maybe I'm just pessimistic?

 

[Kinokou]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Whilst knowing little to nothing about Octoberfest excepts for people getting drunk, I would be money that there is a lot more going on there than gets reported.

This NYE thing almost looks like it got a Cosby effect with more people reporting once it reached some kind of critical mass, where groping suddenly is worth reporting compared to other situations.

I have only been groped once and didn't report*, and honestly I don't know if I would bother to report it if it happened again, unless say someone else got got seriously sexually harassed or raped at the same site. I actually feel a bit ashamed from typing this out as groping is covered in the law (at least how I understand reading) and should deserve the same respect and attention as other criminal offenses, but somehow I have come to see it as minor and something one just have to deal with. Sorry if this is a sidetrack, but I just realized that I feel this way and it kind of terrifies me.

*

Spoiler

there are many reasons for this; fear of how I retaliated could potentially backfire in a legal investigation, a bunch of witnesses who were friends of both (who would they side with? would there be extra drama and conflict?), who didn't intervene or comment, maybe they didn't notice at all? No one ever brought it up after (I don't hang with this crowd any more), lacking support when I confided in someone and the passage of time( both from my perspective and my confidant when I found the courage to bring it up again).

 

[...Scatter...]

Whilst knowing little to nothing about Octoberfest excepts for people getting drunk, I would be money that there is a lot more going on there than gets reported.

This NYE thing almost looks like it got a Cosby effect with more people reporting once it reached some kind of critical mass, where groping suddenly is worth reporting compared to other situations.

I have only been groped once and didn't report*, and honestly I don't know if I would bother to report it if it happened again, unless say someone else got got seriously sexually harassed or raped at the same site. I actually feel a bit ashamed from typing this out as groping is covered in the law (at least how I understand reading) and should deserve the same respect and attention as other criminal offenses, but somehow I have come to see it as minor and something one just have to deal with. Sorry if this is a sidetrack, but I just realized that I feel this way and it kind of terrifies me.

*

Spoiler

there are many reasons for this; fear of how I retaliated could potentially backfire in a legal investigation, a bunch of witnesses who were friends of both (who would they side with? would there be extra drama and conflict?), who didn't intervene or comment, maybe they didn't notice at all? No one ever brought it up after (I don't hang with this crowd any more), lacking support when I confided in someone and the passage of time( both from my perspective and my confidant when I found the courage to bring it up again).

That stinks. Sorry to hear that.

Criminals need to pay the price. As long as the crime is punished equally amongst the races then we're good to go.

 

[HolySheep]

With the husband from the NYT article letting his wife get repeatedly raped to get the family into Germany it doesn't sound so rosy any more when people say "... take families only ..."

Screening is probably helpful though, if the US is as strict as the impression I have you won't let in anyone unless they are completely spotless.



This can't be good at all. The only thing worse than "the foul immigrants did this" on a relevant crime is "the foul immigrants must have done this!" flooding the comment feed of every single crime, and by proxy elevating ethnic swedes to some kind of angles who could never do wrong. Or maybe I'm just pessimistic?

Exactly what i was thinking as well. This will only serve the cause of right wing-extremists, not harm it. Better to just tell it as it is imo.

 

[Mrmartel]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Still you even start to hear this from "feminists" on social media, in TV! and from mainstream media (ARD, ZDF trending tweet and so one)..

It apparently really, REALLY hurts some people that the censorship didn't work and that the crimes where committed by the "wrong" men .. to the point even the FAZ is pissed off and asking wtf is going on...
http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...nd-falsche-zahlen-von-der-wiesn-14004617.html

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

I unsubbed from the The young turks after that video. What a disgusting display. It's getting crush by viewers and rightfully so. Apologists of radical extremists and rapists.

Just that one girl had some sense, but eventually just gave in to the stupidity of it all.

 

[neorej]

I unsubbed from the The young turks after that video. What a disgusting display. It's getting crush by viewers and rightfully so. Apologists of radical extremists and rapists.

Just that one girl had some sense, but eventually just gave in to the stupidity of it all.

Jesus, right out the gate "I'm sure this happens all over Germany...."

 

[water_wendi]

I unsubbed from the The young turks after that video. What a disgusting display. It's getting crush by viewers and rightfully so. Apologists of radical extremists and rapists.

Just that one girl had some sense, but eventually just gave in to the stupidity of it all.

i thought maybe it was blown out of proportion like much of the complaints of TYT gets. Then i watched it. Unbelievable. i as well unsubbed.

 

[Lexxism]

I have no idea what The Young Turks is. I searched it and it says that they " an online American liberal/progressive political and social commentary program"?

Wait, what?

 

[dave is ok]

The video has 1700 likes to 10,700 dislikes so far

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

HAHAHHAHAHAHA, Comedy gold.

 

[Drencrom]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Still you even start to hear this from "feminists" on social media, in TV! and from mainstream media (ARD, ZDF trending tweet and so one)..

It apparently really, REALLY hurts some people that the censorship didn't work and that the crimes where committed by the "wrong" men .. to the point even the FAZ is pissed off and asking wtf is going on...
http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...nd-falsche-zahlen-von-der-wiesn-14004617.html

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

 

[RangerX]

It's Europe. Let's say you get a burglar in your home and smash him with a baseball bat. If you can not proof there was an immediate danger to your life, you'll need to appear in front of a judge. No matter that the guy just broke into your home.

If there is a clear threat, then you can use force. We had a case here about a jewelry being robbed at gunpoint. The owner had an illegal gun and his wife shot one of the robbers. She was not charged.

Europe is a bit different when it comes to this compared to the US. And at least to me, the US has it more right in this case. If somebody assaults you or tries to take your stuff, you should have the right to hurt him.

Thank fuck it is like that in Europe. I don't want a burglar to get seriously hurt because hes robbing my house and I have been robbed before. Breaking into my property doesn't deserve serious injury or death. If your defending yourself then you have every right to use force as is only right. With US laws though the second someone enters their house they go from zero to 100 and it often ends in the death. I am so so glad it is not like the US here.

 

[Doczu]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

Semi on topic: i've heard and read about what a liberal/progressive person would do when they had to choose between representing rape and abuse on one side, and racism/xenophobia on the other.
I think i know the answer now.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Disgusting piece in the Telegraph by a woman who is a fetishist about the idea that some people treat women worse than others.

In 1993, when I was 17 and my sister were 12 and 11, our family moved to the Turkish capital, Ankara, because of my father’s job with the UN’s refugee agency, the UNHCR. For the next two years we were leered at, jeered at, hissed at, groped and touched, again and again and again, every single time we left the house. The only time this treatment lessened was if we went out with my father. Once I was groped and hit in the face right outside the president’s palace. The guards responded by hooting and laughing and shoving their pelvises at me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...84/Muslim-men-considered-us-to-be-whores.html

It's a good job that the world experts in racism and religious intolerance at the young turks are quick to point out that the woman would have experienced much worse if she was standing outside the white house in Washington.

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

To be honest TYT are alienating liberals for quite a while, specially when it comes to Islam and they have been caught basically lying to their viewers when it comes to defend Muslims or completely denying the problem of radical Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byJaLeslnIk

 

[dave is ok]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

The term for it is the 'regressive left'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

 

[TM94]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

I'm convinced that most live in a 'virtual bubble'

With little to no understanding of the real-world.

I'm left but damn some of the responses to this have really boiled my blood, including people on this very forum.

 

[Nabbis]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

There never was any common sense when it comes to the average voter. I suspect that the reason for this particular conundrum is because many self proclaimed liberals only follow a few specific tenants of liberal ideology in a dogma like manner while ignoring what the actual ideology might be about. Probably has something to do with primary and secondary education "politics classes" being made more into propaganda for specific ideals instead of nuanced discussion. At the very least that's how it was in Finnish textbooks even before the left started supporting massive immigration.

 

[magnetic]

I feel really bad for the people trying to flee from violence, abuse and oppression, only to find out that the same power structures are being kept alive inside the refugee camps, and with outbursts like these.

Of course not all refugees are violent, angry, misogynist men, but they are undoubtedly here, or else this wouldn't have happened. This isn't theory, this is reality. The victims of sexual abuse aren't suddenly less traumatized because "well, this was only a small minority of idiots!"

These guys are ruining it for those who genuinely need protection and have good intentions. I honestly think some people don't realize that trying to downplay the severity of what happened on NYE by saying stuff like "there's also rape at the Oktoberfest" or "rape culture was here long before this happened" is going to make things even worse.

If you want to protect refugees, think about the weakest among them - women, children, homosexuals, religious minorities. Those are stuck in the same camps as the type of guys who participated in the mass abuse on NYE, and who knows what those are going through.

If we don't nip this type of chaos in the bud and keep downplaying assaults and problems, the atmosphere against ALL refugees is going to drop further below zero. Those guys have turned around the mood in a way that was stunningly effective in how brazen it was. It all sounds like the perfect far right wet dream scenario.

I try to stay away from all social media discussions concerning this right now because it's such a mess of ideologies, intentions and agendas, but I just wanted to add this to the discussion.

In order to be tolerant, you can't tolerate intolerance. If we truly are not racist, we need to hold everyone coming to this country to the same standards as ourselves.

And trying to compare the sexism of the immigrant males with the sexism in Germany is honestly insulting to everyone involved. Abuse is horrible wherever it happens. Just because there's sexist shit happening everywhere in the world doesn't make the events on NYE any less infuriating.

 

[Jasup]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Still you even start to hear this from "feminists" on social media, in TV! and from mainstream media (ARD, ZDF trending tweet and so one)..

It apparently really, REALLY hurts some people that the censorship didn't work and that the crimes where committed by the "wrong" men .. to the point even the FAZ is pissed off and asking wtf is going on...
http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...nd-falsche-zahlen-von-der-wiesn-14004617.html

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

The narrative is that many of the womens associations and feminists have campaigned against sexual harrasment for years because it's still a thing. They do know that in Western Europe the problems of sexual harrasment and sexual violence is more prevalent in many immigrant populations and many participate and have participated in international campaigns for womens rights in Middle-East and Africa for example.

However many of these organizations are outraged that many of the same people who have previously dismissed the problem of sexual harrasment are now now outraged by it, because it fits their often racist political narrative. Often times these same people still continue to dismiss the domestic problem.

The problem they have is not that the wrong men committed the crime but that the wrong men are "protecting" them. It's the hypocrisy they're against.

This discussion has been trending a bit in Finland, where for example one MP told a Finnish journalist on Twitter that she should not complain about her experiences of sexual harrasment because she's a former pornstar. The same MP is naturally outraged about sexual harrasment in cases where immigrants are involved.

This cartoon was on today's Demokraatti (Finnish Social Democratic newspaper) about the issue:

translation: Don't be afraid miss! I'll protect you!

I really don't like the narrative that "the left" or "liberals" or what have you are willing to let immigrants commit crimes in the name of "multiculturalism" or "diversity". Crimes are crimes and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[nynt9]

The narrative is that many of the womens associations and feminists have campaigned against sexual harrasment for years because it's still a thing. They do know that in Western Europe the problems of sexual harrasment and sexual violence is more prevalent in many immigrant populations and many participate and have participated in international campaigns for womens rights in Middle-East and Africa for example.

However many of these organizations are outraged that many of the same people who have previously dismissed the problem of sexual harrasment are now now outraged by it, because it fits their often racist political narrative. Often times these same people still continue to dismiss the domestic problem.

The problem they have is not that the wrong men committed the crime but that the wrong men are "protecting" them. It's the hypocrisy they're against.

This discussion has been trending a bit in Finland, where for example one MP told a Finnish journalist on Twitter that she should not complain about her experiences of sexual harrasment because she's a former pornstar. The same MP is naturally outraged about sexual harrasment in cases where immigrants are involved.

This cartoon was on today's Demokraatti (Finnish Social Democratic newspaper) about the issue:

I really don't like the narrative that "the left" or "liberals" or what have you are willing to let immigrants commit crimes in the name of "multiculturalism" or "diversity". Crimes are crimes and should be dealt with accordingly.

That is indeed part of the narrative, but there's also a trend of people who otherwise identify as liberal and pro-women's rights not speaking up on this issue or deflecting because they don't want to appear racist, and by doing so they support the cover-up of these sexual assaults and normalization of rape. That is not ok.

You might not like this narrative, but it is definitely part of the overall narrative.

 

[daniels]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

No they (young turks) have so many negative votes on this video it actually looks like the majority of their fans didnt like what they heard no matter liberal or conservative.
Also many of the young turks videos are not bad its just sometimes they miss pretty hard and this was one of the ugliest misses(imo) i have ever seen from them and of course they know that now thx to the comments/ratings.

 

[Averon]

I'm a pretty leftist guy, but some of the responses to these incidents in Europe from the left is fucking disgusting. I have not seen that TYT video, but if it is anything like what I have see and read from some leftist circles over the past 10 days, I'm sure it would disgust me.

The left's reluctance to criticize regressive attitudes that some cultures have towards women rights and LGBT rights is infuriating and needs to change.

 

[Drencrom]

The term for it is the 'regressive left'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

That is a great and specific term, thanks for the link!

No they (young turks) have so many negative votes on this video it actually looks like the majority of their fans didnt like what they heard no matter liberal or conservative.
Also many of the young turks videos are not bad its just sometimes they miss pretty hard and this was one of the ugliest misses(imo) i have ever seen from them and of course they know that now thx to the comments/ratings.

That's why I said "liberals" with the quotation marks.

 

[SolidusDave]

So "liberals" are now becoming rape apologists just because these scummy rapists and molesters are non-white and/or refugees?

What the hell is going on, when did common fucking sense die?

far right and far left are one and the same.
It's ridiculous. It's rather a problem with how the human brain works though (or rather that a subset of people are more prone to radicalization). Any ideology can have people bending reality to fit their bubble. Obviously some ideologies are more harmful to our society than others based on what they believe, e.g. the far left is still the lesser evil than the far right.

Then the obvious power play is added, not in the sense of the lust for more power in a country but rather not letting the ones of the opposite ideology gaining influence. Now you get misinformation/misrepresentation or sometimes even straight up lies from either camp, anything that fits the narrative.

As usual, all of them think they are the good guys of course (see also terrorists etc. btw). It's especially easy to convince yourself when you have a righteous cause on paper. Let's say, "reduce reduce animal suffering/preserve nature" - cool. Now cue organizations like Peta doing their shit.

It's frustrating for anyone in the middle. Everything has to be politicized.
No, helping people in need is NOT left-wing. No, wanting to organize helping them based on resources and potential threats is not right-wing. It's a realist thing called common fucking sense.

 

[Chittagong]

The term for it is the 'regressive left'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

That is very insightful and exactly describes what is going on. Regressive left has been far more successful in Europe than Tea Party in the USA, as their world view is the prevailing world view in Europe.

 

[Forsete]

That is very insightful and exactly describes what is going on. Regressive left has been far more successful in Europe than Tea Party in the USA, as their world view is the prevailing world view in Europe.

Hopefully that is coming to an end now. People are speaking up. The "åsiktskorridor" (opinion corridor) as we call it might come to an end soon.

A police officer writing these words would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago.
http://ledarsidorna.se/2016/01/pa-samhallets-botten/

Time for reality to break through.

 

[maniac-kun]

I feel really bad for the people trying to flee from violence, abuse and oppression, only to find out that the same power structures are being kept alive inside the refugee camps, and with outbursts like these.

Of course not all refugees are violent, angry, misogynist men, but they are undoubtedly here, or else this wouldn't have happened. This isn't theory, this is reality. The victims of sexual abuse aren't suddenly less traumatized because "well, this was only a small minority of idiots!"

These guys are ruining it for those who genuinely need protection and have good intentions. I honestly think some people don't realize that trying to downplay the severity of what happened on NYE by saying stuff like "there's also rape at the Oktoberfest" or "rape culture was here long before this happened" is going to make things even worse.

If you want to protect refugees, think about the weakest among them - women, children, homosexuals, religious minorities. Those are stuck in the same camps as the type of guys who participated in the mass abuse on NYE, and who knows what those are going through.

If we don't nip this type of chaos in the bud and keep downplaying assaults and problems, the atmosphere against ALL refugees is going to drop further below zero. Those guys have turned around the mood in a way that was stunningly effective in how brazen it was. It all sounds like the perfect far right wet dream scenario.

I try to stay away from all social media discussions concerning this right now because it's such a mess of ideologies, intentions and agendas, but I just wanted to add this to the discussion.

In order to be tolerant, you can't tolerate intolerance. If we truly are not racist, we need to hold everyone coming to this country to the same standards as ourselves.

And trying to compare the sexism of the immigrant males with the sexism in Germany is honestly insulting to everyone involved. Abuse is horrible wherever it happens. Just because there's sexist shit happening everywhere in the world doesn't make the events on NYE any less infuriating.

They did flee when when they arrived in turkey. Everything after that is them wanting better benefits.

 

[waveuponwave]

The narrative is that many of the womens associations and feminists have campaigned against sexual harrasment for years because it's still a thing. They do know that in Western Europe the problems of sexual harrasment and sexual violence is more prevalent in many immigrant populations and many participate and have participated in international campaigns for womens rights in Middle-East and Africa for example.

However many of these organizations are outraged that many of the same people who have previously dismissed the problem of sexual harrasment are now now outraged by it, because it fits their often racist political narrative. Often times these same people still continue to dismiss the domestic problem.

The problem they have is not that the wrong men committed the crime but that the wrong men are "protecting" them. It's the hypocrisy they're against.

This discussion has been trending a bit in Finland, where for example one MP told a Finnish journalist on Twitter that she should not complain about her experiences of sexual harrasment because she's a former pornstar. The same MP is naturally outraged about sexual harrasment in cases where immigrants are involved.

I really don't like the narrative that "the left" or "liberals" or what have you are willing to let immigrants commit crimes in the name of "multiculturalism" or "diversity". Crimes are crimes and should be dealt with accordingly.

That's really the heart of it. A lot of people on the right who've been crying about those evil feminists are suddenly jumping on the anti-sexism bandwagon, and the left is right in pointing out the hypocrisy.

Unfortunately, in their rush to protect the refugees (which is certainly warranted considering the ongoing arson attacks against refugee centers) they ignore that there's an actual problem that needs to be addressed, and if they won't do it, the right wing is all too eager to take over

 

[Jasup]

That is indeed part of the narrative, but there's also a trend of people who otherwise identify as liberal and pro-women's rights not speaking up on this issue or deflecting because they don't want to appear racist, and by doing so they support the cover-up of these sexual assaults and normalization of rape. That is not ok.

You might not like this narrative, but it is definitely part of the overall narrative.

Yes, that happens too. In many ways it's also because when we're grouping people the groups get easily painted with a broad brush. In this case when immigrants committed crimes, other immigrants who have nothing to do with the said crimes get associated with the criminals. They try to avoid that, many times at their peril.

Of course when we're talking about our own group of people, Westerners in my case, it's the individuals who do those things. It's a common phenomenon in group dynamics.

 

[Oersted]

Apparently some people are losing their minds over this..
Some of the media basically started to pretend and downright lie that this is not so new in Germany and that "MEN" do the same things in the Oktoberfest..

Which isn't true at all and the numbers aren't even close :X

Still you even start to hear this from "feminists" on social media, in TV! and from mainstream media (ARD, ZDF trending tweet and so one)..

It apparently really, REALLY hurts some people that the censorship didn't work and that the crimes where committed by the "wrong" men .. to the point even the FAZ is pissed off and asking wtf is going on...
http://blogs.faz.net/deus/2016/01/06/sexuelle-gewalt-in-koeln-mit-dem-oktoberfest-kleinreden-3075/

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...nd-falsche-zahlen-von-der-wiesn-14004617.html

Also if you want a "laugh":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhQ6YmYzPY

FAZ is right wing conservative, I think you mixed them up with FR.

 

[Crash Station]

It's the cognitive dissonance caused by the clash of two core left values: women's rights and being against the islamophobia of the right. It seems that a lot of these people care more about being opposed to the right than they actually care about women's rights.

The conversation about Islam and its problems is very difficult to have as it requires calm heads from all sides and a lot of information/understanding, and these people just sidestep that instead of pointing out the clash they have within their own ideologies and discussing how to reconcile these.

It's not just women's rights that create this cognitive dissonance. Views on LGBT people is similarly screwed up which a lot of people either dismiss or utilize whataboutisms rather than addressing it. I even see more liberal-leaning Muslim groups that aren't Progressive Islam talking about gay people the way some talk about pedophilia (it's not their fault they were born that way, as long as they don't act on it, etc). There's people on this very forum that said they would not be cool with their Mosque performing a gay wedding.

And that's before we get into the clash of other values that make it seem as if Islam is incompatible with western values without it becoming extremely diluted like the other Abrahamic religions did. It's going to be a problem for a while and many will be scratching their heads on how to deal with it without sounding prejudiced.

 

[Metrotab]

The term for it is the 'regressive left'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left

This is fantastic. This is exactly my frustration with left-wing discourse.

Fortunately I think those days are ending now.