Interesting. Do you have a link to this?
Germany: Merkel disgust at New Year gang assaults
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Three Syrian refugees, ages 12 and 13, sexually assault 3 women in Belgium.
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnen...lingen-randen-drie-meisjes-aan-in-trein.dhtml
Google Translate:
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnen...lingen-randen-drie-meisjes-aan-in-trein.dhtml
Google Translate:
paradise_circus
Member
media, the 4th pillar of democracy.
However, I hope people don't overreact now and the recent discussion should combine sexual abuse in general, especially in germany.
There were some big discussions 2 oe 3 years ago where a woman accused a prominent reporter of domestic rape. He won and many right wing oriented people felt vindicated afterwards.
However, I hope people don't overreact now and the recent discussion should combine sexual abuse in general, especially in germany.
There were some big discussions 2 oe 3 years ago where a woman accused a prominent reporter of domestic rape. He won and many right wing oriented people felt vindicated afterwards.
ClosingADoor
Member
Every incident now will get more media coverage. But considering before some tried to actively hide these things, it seems a bit more coverage is not the worst thing.
Of course we shouldn't forget that plenty of Europeans commit sexual abuse also and that is terrible, but if it is on the rise because we are letting in many young men that seem to display this behavior, that needs to be handled.
Marauder Shields
Member
Literally animals. Holy shit.
Miles Quaritch
Member
People with a warped sense of women's role in society. Labelling them as animals makes it easy to dismiss their behaviour and dehumanise them.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Are there any other sources than this dubious tabloid?
This is very likely illegal. Also, the people in charge said that the refugees did not commit any crimes.
This is not entirely accurate. The procession was not canceled because of the refugees, but because the organisers failed to submit a security plan to the city and the police.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
Ehm .... that newspaper article was from 1996 ... I suppose Geen Stijl's idea behind linking that article was that this was happening decades ago already.
Gemüsepizza
Member
Really? How about we discuss facts and don't spread fearmongering nonsense like those tabloids do.
Gemüsepizza
Member
I was not exactly "jumping" at you, just made a few comments because I thought the excerpts did not show the full picture.
Only if we let them.
Mr. Giggles
Member
C'mon man. This is an interesting thread with some good discussion no need to belittle someone for challenging a source especially when it's presented in an incorrect context
ClosingADoor
Member
It's just criminals. Nothing to do with a warped sense or whatever. They know what they are doing is wrong and hurts people. They just don't care.
I think this was the same tabloid running reports about the Cologne attacks and people had the same comments then. Turned out to be true.Gemüsepizza;192265866 said:
But here you go, in German http://www.dw.com/de/bonn-grapscherei-auf-flüchtlingsparty/a-18970054 And here http://www.ksta.de/bonn/-belaestigungen-bei-fluechtlingsparty-in-bonn-sote,15189200,33472966.html
If there are enough complaints, should they just ignore it and hope it goes away? Or do we now need police in swimming pools because people can't keep their hands to themselves? Article is also saying this is not something permanent, but the owners do this to get the message through that the problems are piling up.
The security plan is necessary because of the refugee center nearby and the recent attacks I think. Because the last years they could do it.
Banning refugees from visiting pools is disgusting to say the least.
Should places be allowed to ban blacks and latinos due to the fact that a higher percentage of blacks and latinos commit crimes? The answer is to simply hire more security or at worst find creative ways to keep the unwanted types of refugees out without such as enforcing a dress code or something similar.
Can't believe there are people who support this. I can guarantee if such a thing happened with literally any other group of people GAF would be disgusted.
Should places be allowed to ban blacks and latinos due to the fact that a higher percentage of blacks and latinos commit crimes? The answer is to simply hire more security or at worst find creative ways to keep the unwanted types of refugees out without such as enforcing a dress code or something similar.
Can't believe there are people who support this. I can guarantee if such a thing happened with literally any other group of people GAF would be disgusted.
Gemüsepizza
Member
The dw article paints a pretty different picture.
If someone does something wrong there, they can kick them out and call the police if the person does not comply. You can't just ban all refugees from coming there. That's discrimination.
Afaik you need security plans for every big event in Germany. So why didn't they make a proper one? They also could have just changed the route, so I doubt that's the reason.
ClosingADoor
Member
What is the different picture to you? It says how organizers told people multiple times to keep their distance from others. It says people have been sexually harassed. The difference seems to be that Express paints it as a cover up, while there was communication about it earlier from the organisation.Gemüsepizza;192267006 said:
To me it seems these problems were common enough and complaints about it weren't taken seriously. Now the owners have said to the organisation in charge "deal with this and you're welcome again." Seems fair to me. Refugees also get a discount rate, so they're probably denied on that basis and not by skin color. Although it is a bit unclear.
Probably because the new "proper one" needs extended security that the organisers so not have the means for to comply with.
So by that logic we should ban blacks and latinos from pools as well. I'm sorry but this is still disgusting and just flatout racist. You don't ban an entire group of people just because a share of them engage in criminal behavior (and I guarantee you the black and latino criminals put these refugee criminals to shame looking at crime statistics and noone is calling to ban them from facilities). It's 2016 and we are talking about being banned from going to swimming pools. I mean holy shit.
The whole argument that "white men sexual harass women too and thus this is not an immigration problem" is imo a weak argument. Yes obviously Europe is not void of sexual crimes against women. The problem is certain sexual crimes are committed much more often by people of non-western origin than "ethnic europeans"(couldnt come up with a better term, been a long time since i have used my english).
Now i will only speak about Norway since i have no clue how the statistics look in other countries. But if you look at number of rapes commited, non-western men are heavily overrepresented and this is not a new thing. Now first i will point out that in norway one usually seperate rape committed by force and rape committed on someone that are unable to take care of themself. In the first catogery the majority of the offenders are of non-western origin:
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/i...eldte-overfallsvoldtekter-i-Oslo-5569378.html
"Every rape reported in Oslo between 2006-2008 were committed by people of non-western origin"
http://www.nrk.no/rogaland/voldtekter-begas-av-ikke-norske-1.7945797
"between 2009-2011 9 out of 10 people convicted for rape were of non-western origin"
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/04/kultur/debatt/overfallsvold/rolness/18891745/
"rapes(of the first catogery) in oslo in 2010 were all committed by men of non-western origin"
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/04/kultur/debatt/overfallsvold/rolness/18891745/
"the last 5 years 83 out 85 rapes(in the first catogery) were committed by men of non-western origin"
Now if one were to look at rapes in the second catogery the majority of the offenders are ethnic norwegians. However in terms of percentage it looks like men of non-western origin are overrepresented:
"7 out of 18 of these types of rapes in Stavanger were committed by non-western men"
http://www.nrk.no/rogaland/voldtekter-begas-av-ikke-norske-1.7945797
"In all catogeries of rapes, people from asia, africa and the middle-east accounts for 49% of the rapes committed in Oslo. Yet they only account for 12% of the population in oslo"
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/04/kultur/debatt/overfallsvold/rolness/18891745/
Note that even if you cant read norwegian these are not some extrimist newspapers. I could not find newer numbers. There has been nothing to indicate that situation has changed though. Very rarerly do you see the newspapers actually do these kinds of articles, perhaps because they are criticized(imo wrongfully) for being racists.
Now my key point is not to say that all immigrants are rapists. Most are very decent people. Yet a higher percentage of the immigrants commit sexual crimes compared to the percentage of the ehtnic norwegians( in terms of population). This can partly be explained by the fact that immigrants that have experienced war are more agressive. But it's imo idiotic to claim that the view on woman these immigrants have learned from birth does not influence the statistics whatsoever...
Now i will only speak about Norway since i have no clue how the statistics look in other countries. But if you look at number of rapes commited, non-western men are heavily overrepresented and this is not a new thing. Now first i will point out that in norway one usually seperate rape committed by force and rape committed on someone that are unable to take care of themself. In the first catogery the majority of the offenders are of non-western origin:
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/i...eldte-overfallsvoldtekter-i-Oslo-5569378.html
"Every rape reported in Oslo between 2006-2008 were committed by people of non-western origin"
http://www.nrk.no/rogaland/voldtekter-begas-av-ikke-norske-1.7945797
"between 2009-2011 9 out of 10 people convicted for rape were of non-western origin"
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/04/kultur/debatt/overfallsvold/rolness/18891745/
"rapes(of the first catogery) in oslo in 2010 were all committed by men of non-western origin"
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/04/kultur/debatt/overfallsvold/rolness/18891745/
"the last 5 years 83 out 85 rapes(in the first catogery) were committed by men of non-western origin"
Now if one were to look at rapes in the second catogery the majority of the offenders are ethnic norwegians. However in terms of percentage it looks like men of non-western origin are overrepresented:
"7 out of 18 of these types of rapes in Stavanger were committed by non-western men"
http://www.nrk.no/rogaland/voldtekter-begas-av-ikke-norske-1.7945797
"In all catogeries of rapes, people from asia, africa and the middle-east accounts for 49% of the rapes committed in Oslo. Yet they only account for 12% of the population in oslo"
http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/11/04/kultur/debatt/overfallsvold/rolness/18891745/
Note that even if you cant read norwegian these are not some extrimist newspapers. I could not find newer numbers. There has been nothing to indicate that situation has changed though. Very rarerly do you see the newspapers actually do these kinds of articles, perhaps because they are criticized(imo wrongfully) for being racists.
Now my key point is not to say that all immigrants are rapists. Most are very decent people. Yet a higher percentage of the immigrants commit sexual crimes compared to the percentage of the ehtnic norwegians( in terms of population). This can partly be explained by the fact that immigrants that have experienced war are more agressive. But it's imo idiotic to claim that the view on woman these immigrants have learned from birth does not influence the statistics whatsoever...
ClosingADoor
Member
I really want to know a bit more about how they go about banning people before I go around painting people as racist. Like I said, if this is a cancellation of that discount card for now that refugees get, it seems fair to me.
It is also 2016 and we are talking about being sexually harassed at a swimming pool by men who can't handle a girl in an bikini.
Do refugees have the ability to go to the pool without the discount card? If they can, then I can see it being alright, if they can't then it is incredibly racist.
Not comparable at all. You don't compare a cultural problem to enforcing segregation.
Doczu
Member
As we see, a lot of cases are surfacing now, be it hidden before, or totally new. And Gemusepizza should is the first to deny, then to dance around the topic.
ClosingADoor
Member
Bit unclear, no article is talking about exactly what they are doing. Maybe they ask identification and if you don't have one, you don't get in. Anybodies guess at the moment. But it is clear it is more of a protest action from the town because they didn't think their complaints were taken serious by the social services in charge of the refugee centers.
I was more commenting about how both things are ridiculous to come up in 2016 because we should have moved on from issues like this, but it seems here we are and we need to deal with these problems.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Whatever Europe does, Greece and Italy will be stuck with a massive immigration problem that will tear those countries apart and from the EU if other countries don't accept the immigrants. They won't do anything to help those countries. The EU could eventually split because of this, leaving the south to handle the situation.
Mr. Giggles
Member
thing is these events have just not been covered to this extent.
If I may present an anecdote, my coworker is French and she mentioned to me that she had been groped by a morrocan guy when she was at a music festival when she was younger, saying that these are surfacing now because of the influx of refugees is taking an opportunistic stance to push ones political agenda.
A lot of posters are just using google translate and copying articles while missing the context of what the article is fully saying
That is why I believe Gemusepizza challenged those links.
Again, let's have a mature discussion about this without resorting to posting memes when a proper counter argument can't be made
The article linked doesn't even specify HOW the refugees get banned? I can't read German, but that seems pretty dumb they would mention such a thing and not say how they prevented the people from coming in.
Apples and oranges.
Doczu
Member
Very sad to hear that it happen to your coworker, but the bolded part is, pun not intended, a bold statement. I'd rather say that with the amount of immigrants/refugees these situations are happening in a larger scale, be it now, or from the (not so distant) past, that we're covered (more or less).
Mr. Giggles
Member
I'm inclined to agree that with a very large influx of people that crime will inevitably go up. We saw this when Fidel Castro sent boats of people to the shores of Miami.
However, it's been pointed out that many of these incidents are caused by migrants and not necessarily the new refugees coming in. just like the Paris attacks were caused by French citizens themselves and not by refugees yet the media and a lot of people were aching to point the fingers and say "see!"
While that argument can be made. If you take a look at my previous post concerning rape-statistics you will see that immigrants of non-western immigrants were heavily overrpresented in those statistics. Those article were written before the Syria-conflict. Now if the statistics are similar with other sexual crimes as well(sexual harrassing in public places ect) Could you not make the point that more immigrants from these areas will statistically lead to more sexual crimes? And thus its not only due to people pushing ther political agenda, but also because the crimes are committed more often than before?(Note that i have not seen such statistics).
Now can you not also fault the media with the recent surge of such reportings? seeing as the media ( and the police) deliberately tried to cover up such stories, and that news like this as a consequence has been deemed more "news worthy" then before?
To Nuu, I don't know anything about this pool situation, so I'm not speaking to that with any particular knowledge or authority, but I just want to address some of the things you've said in general:
First off, citizenship and race are two different things. People aren't being denied access to an amenity because of their skin color. If the refugees were given access to the pool and abused the women there, then I don't think it's too much to take the privilege away. I imagine this could be enforced by restricting public pool use to those who can provide proof of citizenship. Of course, this isn't ideal, but I think it's a fair enough temporary solution.
And I know, "Not every refugee abused the women, so why should they all be punished?" Because these issues should have been handled at the borders and they were not, so now people are left with the task of somehow weeding through the refugees internally. Basically, there is no good answer, because it's a monumental fuck up.
It's actually two sides of the exact same issue. The pool access is being denied because of the abuse. If you want to let everybody use the pool, then you have to provide some kind of safety measure for the women who want to swim there. I'm more than happy to listen to any of your proposed alternate solutions.
First off, citizenship and race are two different things. People aren't being denied access to an amenity because of their skin color. If the refugees were given access to the pool and abused the women there, then I don't think it's too much to take the privilege away. I imagine this could be enforced by restricting public pool use to those who can provide proof of citizenship. Of course, this isn't ideal, but I think it's a fair enough temporary solution.
And I know, "Not every refugee abused the women, so why should they all be punished?" Because these issues should have been handled at the borders and they were not, so now people are left with the task of somehow weeding through the refugees internally. Basically, there is no good answer, because it's a monumental fuck up.
It's actually two sides of the exact same issue. The pool access is being denied because of the abuse. If you want to let everybody use the pool, then you have to provide some kind of safety measure for the women who want to swim there. I'm more than happy to listen to any of your proposed alternate solutions.
ClosingADoor
Member
Most talk is about immigrants in general and not necessarily Syrian refugees. When people talk about this, they also group people from foreign descent with it, who probably have German, French, Dutch, etc citizenship - although recent problems do point to people who are here either illegal or in the asylum process. It has been pretty well known that these groups have been over represented in the crime statistics for various reasons, but it was more of a taboo to talk about it until recently and politicians don't talk about it that much out of fear of driving people to the far right.
The big worry is that we now take in a lot of people from similar regions and those will not integrate well and end up the same way.
Aside from the fact that we do know that a lot of these incidents were caused by refugees, I would also say that these migrants can have a negative effect on minorities that are already problematic with regard to integration. A lot of these people won't start new communities, they'll overwhelmingly eventually move into neighbourhoods with people of a similar background. In doing so, they'll reinforce the more conservative attitudes in the community, since migrants from regions like the Middle East will tend to be more conservative than those with such backgrounds who have spent more time in Europe or were even born here.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Like I said right before you posted, that yes I agree, with an increase in people comes an increase in crime but as has already been pointed out most of the incidents reported involve migrants and with very little involvement from war refugees.
So saying that it's purely because we started letting refugees in is taking an opportunity to also forward an anti-immigration agenda
Now as for the media/police attempts to cover the incidents (again for political agendas) that has caused a flury of reports since it's a hot topic
Mr. Giggles
Member
Ah, I see. I concede then, my apologies. I keep focusing on war refugees without considering the overall immigrant spectrum
And in turn I do agree with the problem of integration
I agree, I believe it comes back to the issue of integration that has existed before the refugee crisis
This is ridiculous. So according to the bolded should the United States ban all people of Latin American descent because they didn't "secure the border"? This is literally what you are saying.
You can't ban a group of people from attending a service. It is a core tenet of liberalism. One of these things is a cultural problem created by society, the other is top down government interventionism.
It's not entirely comparable to the Latin America situation though, because here we have small countries (USA is huge) receiving a very large and fast influx of people who are culturally very different (Latin Americans aren't THAT different from Americans) over a short period of time.
Another core tenet of liberalism is establishing a safe space for people who need protection from oppression, and women getting sexually assaulted and raped en masse means that you need to take measures to make sure this doesn't happen.
As I said earlier in this thread, two aspects of liberalism are being pitted against in this situation and there isn't a right answer, but to bring it back on topic, I don't think the answer that involves covering up and normalizing rape is the right one.
If these people stuck to statistics you might have a point, but many never bother to bring them up in the first place. I haven't followed all these threads too closely, but I don't recall much discussion of actual statistics when it comes to crimes in general or sexual assault in particular.
People stick to single events and anecdotal evidence because statistics massively restrict what claims people can make, because the moment you look at something abstract as statistics it becomes much more difficult to get people outraged (simply due to said abstract nature). People quote the articles that favor their opinion and ignore those that don't because otherwise they cannot simplify the problem.
There's plenty of reasonable discussion possible when it comes to immigration, but these people make that difficult.
No matter how often people repeat the cover up stuff, it's still nonsense. There is no conspiracy to cover up criminal activity by immigrants among media. The media screws up, as it has done in the past and as it will do so in the future. People can't even come up with anything resembling a reasonable explanation for that conspiracy theory.
I have no clue what you're talking about. The United States does ban people from crossing the border illegally, and those who do are dealt with internally in some manner. Whether it be deportation, or integration, or whatever. How you can associate this with an open-border situation is baffling. If you honestly think what happened in Germany is the same thing, then I don't know what to to tell you.
Also, "ban people of Latin American descent"? Why are you trying to associate this with a racial issue once again? I don't even know the origin country of the people from the refugee center in question. And really, it doesn't matter.
Once again, I have no idea what you're talking about. People are banned from all sorts of services all the time. When regarding services in the public sphere, citizenship status is often very crucial.
Either way, I don't think restricting pools to citizens would be necessary under normal conditions, but considering the number of assaults that were supposedly committed, I think it's a fine temporary solution until this is sorted out. And once again, you have to consider both sides of the issue. If you want to give everybody access to the pool, then you have to be able to provide protection for the women who swim there. I am still prepared to hear your alternate solutions. Simply saying "society created the problem" does not actually fix the problem.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
Send them all back to send out a signal to the rest.
You are welcome, but if you misbehave you will be sent back.
You are welcome, but if you misbehave you will be sent back.
I think he is saying that you cannot ban someone from access simply due to their race, religion or political affiliation, just because such people have caused problems in the past.
ClosingADoor
Member
It seems pretty simple. But when you don't know where people are from, their countries won't take them back or the country is unsafe, it is a very slow process. That is not even getting into getting an actual conviction for these crimes.
quackamole
Member
Then provide security personell at all times to make sure nothing happens. If they can't then just shut it down.
MisterFalcon
Member
After a few incidents a place dependent on people visiting to have fun like a swimming pool will start getting into financial problems due to dropping visitor numbers.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
True, but you only need to send back a few to send a strong message of fear. Those people traveled for months mostly on foot to get where they are. If they see that people who break the law are being sent back and all their effort is for nothing then I assume most of them will think twice before breaking the law.
ClosingADoor
Member
So we should shut down all kinds of services when a small group makes trouble? I like to live in a place were my swimming pools don't need constant security please. Although the situation might be a bit overblown here and the town is trying to sent a message that the people in charge of the refugee center need to take their complaints serious.
Depends on how many you sent back and how easy it is to get in. If you are sent back after a year or so, getting on a boat again with the prospect of free housing and such for another year is pretty good.
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