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Ghost in the Shell |OT| I was born in the sea of information
- Thread starter Trokil
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Yes, according to reviews of people who actually hate 3D the effects are very good.
MugiwaraCole
Member
I keep getting mixed info on this transphobic joke. What exactly happened?
radios shipping overview
Member
When you talk about Hollywood just making decisions that are intended to make money, you think you're just being reasonable, but you're making excuses for racist power structures that have maintained their racism for more than a century.
When you go on and on about Scarlett being the only female star who can currently anchor anchor a big scifi flick and ask where all the Asian stars are, you sound like you're placing the burden of responsibility on the Asian actors who haven't made it to Scarlett's level of success, despite the fact that the deck is stacked against nonwhite actors at all levels in Hollywood.
You may not think of yourself as racist, but you refuse to acknowledge the racism that's in front of you and you end up sounding like you're justifying it.
Inferno313
Banned
It's not a transphobic joke, as I read it. Heck, it's not even a joke, just a beat in an action sequence. No actual spoilers, just a scene description:
Batou just wants the other person in the restroom to gtfo, because Major is in danger and he's about to have a gun smuggled in through the bathroom window to go help her.
The original description didn't even sound transphobic so I'm not really sure what the hell theyre talking about.
MugiwaraCole
Member
If the "other person" was trans, that's an extremely tone deaf scene.
Inferno313
Banned
I don't think they were? I hadn't heard about that scene before seeing, so to be fair, I wasn't trying to look out for it. However, I also don't even think it's clear which restroom Batou is in.
Based on what I can find...
Metro
Indepedent
I'll see if I can dig up more...but that's all I could find at the moment.
I don't get the meritocracy argument. ScarJo is hardworking no doubt and has many years of experience under her belt since starting out at 13. She has go on to be part of many successful movies and became an A list bankable actress.
Do you folks really believe such opportunities are available to Asian artists? Even the established ones hailing from Asia?
Here's the thing.
There's exist an underlying bias in western countries that favour overwhelmingly to white artists. They are not as receptive to Asian cultures, much less Asian artists. The same can be said for darker-skinned folks.
The rest of the world however readily embrace western culture and white leads.
Yes, it's a economic argument to cast ScarJo. But that's just because, in the first place, people in Western countries are incredibly favoring white artists whereas other countries mostly don't exhibit as much as a strong preferences if given the same choice.
This is not sports where meritocracy argument has actual credibility. No one can take away the credits of Jordan ( basketball ) , Federer ( Tennis ) or Lin Dan ( Badminton ) who are the goat of their respective sports. Because saying they gain an edge over their race would be silly.
The argument for diversity could be seen as an economic one because ultimately if you have the world wide market in your hands and you choose to whitewash or restrict diversity, eventually people would not be supportive of your products. Though at the moment, the backlash are mostly restrained.
I say this as an Asian who just watch Life + Logan and will be watchin GitS later next week. I also like ScarJo more after she played Ivanka in SNL complicit skit.
Do you folks really believe such opportunities are available to Asian artists? Even the established ones hailing from Asia?
Here's the thing.
There's exist an underlying bias in western countries that favour overwhelmingly to white artists. They are not as receptive to Asian cultures, much less Asian artists. The same can be said for darker-skinned folks.
The rest of the world however readily embrace western culture and white leads.
Yes, it's a economic argument to cast ScarJo. But that's just because, in the first place, people in Western countries are incredibly favoring white artists whereas other countries mostly don't exhibit as much as a strong preferences if given the same choice.
This is not sports where meritocracy argument has actual credibility. No one can take away the credits of Jordan ( basketball ) , Federer ( Tennis ) or Lin Dan ( Badminton ) who are the goat of their respective sports. Because saying they gain an edge over their race would be silly.
The argument for diversity could be seen as an economic one because ultimately if you have the world wide market in your hands and you choose to whitewash or restrict diversity, eventually people would not be supportive of your products. Though at the moment, the backlash are mostly restrained.
I say this as an Asian who just watch Life + Logan and will be watchin GitS later next week. I also like ScarJo more after she played Ivanka in SNL complicit skit.
MilkLizard
Member
I saw it in 3D and it was used pretty well here. The effects are subtle and I don't remember shit flying in your face all the time. (Except for one explosion.)
MugiwaraCole
Member
Because the Major is Japanese.
UnemployedVillain
Member
No, everything that can be misconstrued as being offensive isn't automatically "tone deaf".
If the person is the only other person in the bathroom and Batou is trying to make sure it's empty I don't see the problem. Not to mention it's in a world where the "lines" between gender/sex and other human aspects are blurred anyway
Inferno313
Banned
Yeah, I think this is spot on. GITS starring a white woman isn't, in and of itself, THE big issue in play here. THE issue is that Asian and Asian-American actors are given next-to-no opportunities to advance in Hollywood. Thus, when you're a producer looking to get the studio to sign off on your $120 Million Cyberpunk thriller based on a niche foreign property and need an A-lister to do that, you don't even have the option to cast an Asian-American A-lister, because there are none! And to be clear, that's totally and wholly due to how the system is stacked against them, not the fault of the numerous wonderful and talented Asian actors out there.
I do really encourage everyone to stay vocal, and to stay critical, of these big movies. However, it's also incredibly important to support Asian stars when they do rarely get these opportunities in smaller films, seek them out and go out of your way to give them your money. Kumiko The Treasure Hunter, for example, is a great film that could've totally been a breakout indie hit that significantly-furthered Rinko Kikuchi's western career, but not a damn person saw it.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Had to see it in 2d, the IMAX 3d showing was full. But will see again in 3d, so many scenes you know will look amazing in that format.
Lights and Waves
Member
Cringing so hard right now. Please log off. You're just making yourself look even worse.
I saw it for the first time in almost 20 years last night. Last time I saw it I was just a kid renting it from Blockbuster and I had to fast forward through most of it so my parents wouldn't see the nudity and punish me.
The animation is beautiful, but the dub is pretty bad (that major's actress sounds SO bad) and it's one of those movies where if you zone out for even half a second, you're going to miss really important details. Way too much dialogue exposition.
MugiwaraCole
Member
FTFY
Yes, but it's also not her body.
UnemployedVillain
Member
What possible reason would she switch into a white body?
MugiwaraCole
Member
The "she's in a robot body" argument doesn't hold any weight. You don't cast Scarlett to portray a Japanese woman, you cast a Japanese woman. Period. Androids or no.
Inferno313
Banned
Yes, and in many ways, that's the point of the entire movie.
The Major isn't just a role that's been whitewashed, but the character has literally been whitewashed in the narrative of the film, and the film doesn't slide past that or ignore it, she's FUCKING PISSED that they robbed her of her identity.
Lights and Waves
Member
I don't get why people just can't grasp this concept.
My biggest fear is the day that they announce an American Sailor Moon movie/tv series...
Usagi Tsukino, who speaks Japanese, was born and lives in Japan, comes from a Japanese family, will be cast as a white girl because of "hur dur she has blonde hair!!11 SJWs are triggered something something men's rights something something reverse racisms something something MAGA!"
MugiwaraCole
Member
I don't even pretend to think most people are that dense. They are perfectly capable of understanding it. They don't want to, because they're well, you know.
Inferno313
Banned
So, I'm just gonna post some heavy spoilers here, but it is important to this conversation:
In this version of the story, The Major is introduced as "Mira Killian" and believes herself to be the very first cyborg, and the daughter of refugee parents who were killed by terrorists. It's revealed halfway through the movie, that these were false memories constructed to give her motivation to fight terrorists, that the people who created her have lied to her along every step of the way and that she's actually the 98th attempt, and the first one done right. It's revealed that she was originally born "Mokoto Kusanagi" and that she was a runaway cyber rights campaigner captured by this organization to experiment on, as were the previous 98 failed attempts. Once she has this knowledge, the robotics company that created her tries to kill her, but she escapes. This shocks her, and angers her, and is what drives her to become closer to Kuze, this film's version of the puppetmaster, as he went through the same things, having originally been born as a Japanese person named Hideo.
The idea of having your identity erased by a homogenous society IS a central theme of this piece, moreso than the original. In that respect, casting Scarlett kind-of does work as a bit of meta casting, but it also serves to make the film feel deeply hypocritical.
I think once you guys actually see this thing, you'll see that there's a lot more complexity to how they handle this topic than you might've intially expected, that was certainly the case for me, yet I also think you'll still find it troubling in some aspects.
IdreamofHIME
Member
And
the Motoko in the movie is a Cyber rights campaigner, them stealing her 'Ghost' and making her white is a way for corporation to say fuck you to her and Hideo.
They're not runaway 'kids'. They were hiding from the Corporation. Her mother told you Motoko worked every day on her thesis before taking off without a word.
It's not like she got it by choice or because she would look better this way.
To be fair,
the real Motoko is played by an asian
Inferno313
Banned
Oh right, sorry. I guess I was confused on that plot point,
given that you see Major as a child in the beginning, but I suppose that was a touch of unreliable narration?
lightskintwin
Banned
But that's the whole point in an American/Western studio buying the rights and adapting it for an American/Western audience.
MugiwaraCole
Member
I know the general plot. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't make this story with a Japanese "shell".
Lights and Waves
Member
No it's not. The whole point is for them to bring animated characters to life with a Hollywood budget. Not to remove every semblance on cultural authenticity from it.
She was forced into one as is made clear by the marketing and the film itself.
True Savior
Member
wat
FairFriend
Member
Just came back from the movie. I'll try to be as concise and objective as possible. The experience was pretty enjoyable and I guess that someone who has not seen the original movie will enjoy it even more. I was happy to see that they took a very different approach: it's not that they dumbed down the philosophy, they entirely eradicated it to make their own movie, which worked very much in their favor in the end.
Nonetheless it must be noticed that the movie is very pedantic in the exposition of its plot points which was at times annoying and cringe inducing. Nothing that the average moviegoer has not already suffered, but I can't help but noticing how much of a better movie it would have been with better writers on board.
The 3d in the initial scenes was fantastic, the best I have seen yet, but as usual the abundance of effects diminishes as time goes one. I would still recommend to watch it in 3d nonetheless.
Scarlett was impressive in the role, if you keep in mind that the material she was given was serviceable at best. With a better script, possibly less focused on the major herself, I believe she could work wonders. Obviously this doesn't want to be an excuse for the whitewashing of the character, which is still ridiculous. I am afraid that at this point, for this specific iteration of the franchise, there isn't much that we can personally do. But it's important to keep the conversation going for the future of other anime adaptations.
Another complaint of mine is that they totally missed the point of the title ghost in the shell. Basically the movie defends the point of view of Descartes (unintentionally, of course, by virtue of recycling old tropes like "your body is different but it is still the same old you"), that is that consciousness is localized in the brain and the body does not affect it. The original movie was much more nuanced but as I wrote earlier it's clear that nobody in this production was interested in the topic.
So in the end the real problem of the movie is that it's story is predictable and paper thin and that its execution is pedantic. Finally the soundtrack was entirely forgettable and why the hell did they relegate the original theme to the end credits instead of using it for the shelling sequence?
Anyways I see great potential in this iteration of the franchise IF they change the script writers. The director can stay, you really can't fault him for the problems I mentioned an he's got a keen eye, undoubtedly.
At last but not least, lots of fan service, like Batou's dog.
Nonetheless it must be noticed that the movie is very pedantic in the exposition of its plot points which was at times annoying and cringe inducing. Nothing that the average moviegoer has not already suffered, but I can't help but noticing how much of a better movie it would have been with better writers on board.
The 3d in the initial scenes was fantastic, the best I have seen yet, but as usual the abundance of effects diminishes as time goes one. I would still recommend to watch it in 3d nonetheless.
Scarlett was impressive in the role, if you keep in mind that the material she was given was serviceable at best. With a better script, possibly less focused on the major herself, I believe she could work wonders. Obviously this doesn't want to be an excuse for the whitewashing of the character, which is still ridiculous. I am afraid that at this point, for this specific iteration of the franchise, there isn't much that we can personally do. But it's important to keep the conversation going for the future of other anime adaptations.
Another complaint of mine is that they totally missed the point of the title ghost in the shell. Basically the movie defends the point of view of Descartes (unintentionally, of course, by virtue of recycling old tropes like "your body is different but it is still the same old you"), that is that consciousness is localized in the brain and the body does not affect it. The original movie was much more nuanced but as I wrote earlier it's clear that nobody in this production was interested in the topic.
So in the end the real problem of the movie is that it's story is predictable and paper thin and that its execution is pedantic. Finally the soundtrack was entirely forgettable and why the hell did they relegate the original theme to the end credits instead of using it for the shelling sequence?
Anyways I see great potential in this iteration of the franchise IF they change the script writers. The director can stay, you really can't fault him for the problems I mentioned an he's got a keen eye, undoubtedly.
At last but not least, lots of fan service, like Batou's dog.
MugiwaraCole
Member
You can force her into a Japanese body that isn't originally hers and tell the same story.
Rottentomatoes rottentomatoing. Yeah not wasting my money and time with this one,
lightskintwin
Banned
If that's the case then please list all of these live action American adaptations of anime/manga where this has occured. Or are you confusing it with what you think they should be doing with them?
The Major's real identity, including race, nationality and even gender is a mistery, it's even a plot point sometimes.
There is nothing certain about her identity, that is the whole point.
And her shell is meant to be from mass-produced generic robots, as to be able to blend in easily anywhere.
MugiwaraCole
Member
She's a Japanese android in Japan going by the name Motoku. Jesus.
Right.
The difficulty with combating systemic racism is that it's only obvious at a very broad level. When you zoom in on any individual instance, it becomes impossible to see, because there's almost always a reasonable justification. There are a million reasons you can give for why a movie might hire a particular actor for a role, the same way there are plenty of reasons why to hire one person over another, or all sorts of explanations for why a jury might find someone guilty or not guilty in a criminal case. That makes it hard to call out any particular example of the phenomenon. Even if the majority is over-represented, there are going to be times where it's fair for them to get preference. But if you concede every time there's a reasonable explanation, then you'll never find a good battle to pick, and the (objectively observable) unequal status quo gets maintained.
So while I don't personally hold it against the movie for making this choice with this property, I'm glad people are making noise about the lack of Asian leads with this as an example. Representation won't get better unless this idea is in the minds of the people making casting decisions, and that won't happen without people talking about the systemic problem.
Messofanego
Banned
White guys get away with everything. While for nonwhites, if they fuck up once, you're out of the business.
Zoe
Member
You're talking about the anime Major. The live action Major is different.
Brian_FETO
Banned
This is where this whole thing gets dicey for me. It was written in Japan by a Japanese person and translated over from Japanese
I think the bigger issue is "taking the Japanese influence and removing that Japanese people". That I understand. I almost think the way they've included Beat Takeshi who apparently only speaks Japanese is kind of hilarious and reeks of "no dude we're cool, right?"
I don't think the idea of Motoko being a Japanese woman is nearly as important as people make it out to be, as much as its seen as she should have just been played by a Japanese person. But then, should every anime adaptation (god help us) only have Japanese casts unless explicitly stated otherwise? (I don't mean for this to be a "gotcha" I'm genuinely curious)
More_Badass
Member
Isn't this same idea as say the book
Altered Carbon
Consciousness is contained in the neural stack and can transferred between different bodies
I'm giving her shit because of the race thing and because I don't think she's a very good actress.
Apparently they wanted an Asian lead so badly that they were willing to try digital yellowface.
I mean, how many animes are there where the race of their characters aren't explicit or implied? Any anime that's set in Japan should probably have a Japanese cast unless otherwise specified. Some animes have white characters as their lead and they should probably be played by white people.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
So what? That does not make me a racist. I have the exact same right for my opinion than you.
My question is very simple: are there or are there not Asian-American actresses at the moment who can pull out ScarJo sex appeal, brand appeal and that skillset? If the answer is no, then the problem is everything else than racial. If the answer is yes, then it might be a racial issue. Can you finally give me a simple answer (maybe with a name) or are you afraid to recognize that your rant and agenda is flawed against GitS?
I have not said a single thing about the racial issues in Hollywood. They're real. I'm just questioning this blind fucking rage against GitS, because I cannot name any Asian-American actresses who can star a 120 million niche sfi-ci flick made from obscure manga and anime.
Blockbuster filmmaking is calculating the risks and then trying to minimize them. I would have made the same decision if I would have put 120 million of my own money into a movie like GitS. There's no top tier Asian-American actresses at the moment. I would not risk my money on a no-name b-list actress. That's not racism, it's rational business.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Pacific Rim wouldn't be getting a sequel if it "bombed." The International market helped. It's definitely not a "bomb" but it didn't exceed box office expectations.
Hollywood most assuredly has a double standard when it comes to race. It's not fair.
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