D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
The last MGS video won't load for me. 
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Giant Bomb #11 | Thanks for the Spelunkin', the Spookin', and the Scoopin'
- Thread starter Hot Coldman
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EmCeeGramr
Member
I remember two specific examples that got changed back in the TTS localization (I think that it was mostly unchanged otherwise) that sort of showcase it.
When Psycho Mantis opens the bookcase for Snake and Meryl and notes that it's the first time he's ever helped someone with his powers:
MGS1: "It's strange... it feels... kind of... nice."
TTS: "Strange... such a nostalgic feeling..."
What Liquid says when Gray Fox dies MGS1:
MGS1: "Foolish man. He prayed for death, and it found him."
TTS: "When death is entreated... the battle is decided."
(The Mantis one is kind of interesting. Blaustein changed it to "kind of nice" because, IIRC, the Japanese word for nostalgia is a bit wider in scope [feelings of peace and childhood in general, not necessarily reliving specific memories from your past] and he assumed that "kind of nice" would get the feeling across well. However Kojima later stated that Mantis was remembering something specific... that wasn't even in the script or game: his weird psychic powers allowed him to remember the emotions of his mother giving birth to him at the cost of her own life, and that was what he was remembering)
When Psycho Mantis opens the bookcase for Snake and Meryl and notes that it's the first time he's ever helped someone with his powers:
MGS1: "It's strange... it feels... kind of... nice."
TTS: "Strange... such a nostalgic feeling..."
What Liquid says when Gray Fox dies MGS1:
MGS1: "Foolish man. He prayed for death, and it found him."
TTS: "When death is entreated... the battle is decided."
(The Mantis one is kind of interesting. Blaustein changed it to "kind of nice" because, IIRC, the Japanese word for nostalgia is a bit wider in scope [feelings of peace and childhood in general, not necessarily reliving specific memories from your past] and he assumed that "kind of nice" would get the feeling across well. However Kojima later stated that Mantis was remembering something specific... that wasn't even in the script or game: his weird psychic powers allowed him to remember the emotions of his mother giving birth to him at the cost of her own life, and that was what he was remembering)
EmCeeGramr
Member
Now I'm also remembering that one line in MGS4 that was also in all the trailers that makes absolutely no sense in English (and I don't mean 'lol that's silly it don't make no sense," I mean it's literally meaningless) that was eventually explained to be a ironic Japanese idiom/play on words that is completely lost in translation when directly translated into English.
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
What was the line?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Really hope Dan and drew do a debrief cast.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Naomi's "If you won't be a prisoner of fate, then go and fulfill your destiny."
Again, it's been a while since I read the exact explanation, but IIRC it was that the Japanese line is basically a play on words that's literally, "If you don't like fate heading towards you, then meet fate head on." where it's like, run headlong into what's coming to change it, don't just passively sit there and wait for it. The English translation (where the translator apparently didn't get the idea and thought that using "fate" twice in a row would sound repetitive) makes it sound like Naomi thinks that destiny and fate are two different things and that following one is somehow different than the other.
Felix Lighter
Member
Dan seems to love just about everything going on in MGScanlon but the most exciting thing that has happened in the series so far for him was a flash of a WWF theme restaurant in a bit of live action video during the credits.
I think I have most of the MGS story straight more or less but ocelot's motivations thoughout the series is the part that is still a total mindfuck for me. I was with it until the revelation at the end of 4, IIRC
it isn't actually liquid controlling him, he had hypnosis and stuff so he could pretend to be him in order to fool the patriots
I'm really looking forward to see the relationship revealed in MGS 4 between Big Boss and Ocelot's be developed in Phantom Pain
Yeah, that line always sounded weird to me.
"Wait, don't they mean the same thing?"
The internet overhyped a game's ending, go figure. I mean,
Still a decent ending to a good game, though.
Ocelot literally says at the beginning of the game that he's taking Ray back for the Patriots so that twist is not surprising in the slightest. And while the whole simulation thing is neat, it's not complex in a way that you can't follow what's going on. Like, who is not going to grasp what's happening after the first time watching?
Still a decent ending to a good game, though.
Felix Lighter
Member
I just enjoy MGS as an insane soap opera. Just the crazy characters in these crazy scenarios. The philosophical stuff gets stretched out a bit for me when things in game are explained later in interviews or the way loose ends are tied up so strangely in MGS4. I think Drew is right that the vagueness in game gives them opportunities to just explain things just about anyway they want later on.
I don't think the hype about the ending is really about what happens in it so much as it is the way half of it is a direct diatribe from Kojima about player expectations, the nature of information, memes and societal control, and other related issues... dressed up in an incredibly, almost comedically convoluted plot with ridiculous characters all of whom can't wait to talk to you for twenty to thirty minutes at a time.
stump sock
Member
yessssss
EmCeeGramr
Member
MGS2 was never supposed to have answers to its actual plot. It was supposed to be open ended with Raiden deciding what to do with his life and Snake giving him and the player a message about living. I swear I read somewhere that at one point in the writing, Kojima actually considered ending it with
.
That's part of why Kojima initially said that MGS2 would be his last game, and why when he eventually returned to MGS3, he made it a prequel so he specifically wouldn't have to add on to MGS2 and answer any of it.
Snake jumping off of Arsenal and Arsenal heading towards Manhattan with Raiden and Solidus still on top
That's part of why Kojima initially said that MGS2 would be his last game, and why when he eventually returned to MGS3, he made it a prequel so he specifically wouldn't have to add on to MGS2 and answer any of it.
CambriaRising
Member
People who played it when they were 12. Like my friends and I. I understood much better later.
Hope we'll get a bunch of Demo Derby episodes to balance out the MGS content. Gotta maintain some variety. Throw more Unplugged and Mario Party Party into the mix, as well as Vinnyvania out of Beast.
Breaking Brad should make its glorious return, let's not forget.
Fair enough, lol.
Breaking Brad should make its glorious return, let's not forget.
Fair enough, lol.
Felix Lighter
Member
A huge part of it is what Dan was talking about, the first Metal Gear Solid had it's quirks but was ultimately just a straightforward action game with some Japanese to English awkwardness. Even leading up to Arsenal Gear, I doubt anyone was expecting a 2 hour info dump about societal control, the double meaning of the S3 initiative and the sudden revelations about Solidus and Raiden. They don't ease into it. Going in knowing that the last few hours are boinkers, I imagine completely changes how it's perceived. At the same time, when it's all happening back when people were originally playing it, most people didn't take time to digest what's going on. You just held the controller, listened and waited for the next section of gameplay. The actual action events that occurring during the ending aren't the crazy part, it's the complete change of tone and rapid fire info dump from just about every major character left alive.
Nah, he was aware in previous episodes.
It's not the complexity or how hard it is to follow, it's the sheer cluster-fuck of insanity and ideas crammed into it that makes it seem like it completely flies off the fucking rail. Granted, I came into this after playing 4, so a lot of it made perfect sense to me.
petethepanda
Member
MGS2 does seem like one of those pieces of media so thoroughly discussed that it'd be impossible for it to live up to the hype a new person would have experienced. Plus, a story going "weird" in ways like this isn't quite as rare in 2014. Playing in high school it was just unlike anything.
Mostly, this series has made me angry all over again at how much of a letdown 4 is story-wise. And even later, getting into Ground Zeroes and the... extremes it goes to... I miss these first few games.
Mostly, this series has made me angry all over again at how much of a letdown 4 is story-wise. And even later, getting into Ground Zeroes and the... extremes it goes to... I miss these first few games.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Yeah it would have had much more of an impact if you didn't know that it's supposed to be a "weird game" and Dan isn't constantly saying OH WAIT UNTIL THIS and PAY ATTENTION TO THIS
That's why I was saying a few days ago that that's part of why MGS2 was so out there at launch: it was supposed to be a major AAA next gen blockbuster game and sequel. It's like if millions of dudebros bought Modern Warfare 2 back in 2009 and then the game suddenly spends its final act turning into a post modern essay on how annualized FPS games are brainwashing tools of the mass media and people obsessed with them need to get a life and stop fetishizing the military-industrial complex.
That's why I was saying a few days ago that that's part of why MGS2 was so out there at launch: it was supposed to be a major AAA next gen blockbuster game and sequel. It's like if millions of dudebros bought Modern Warfare 2 back in 2009 and then the game suddenly spends its final act turning into a post modern essay on how annualized FPS games are brainwashing tools of the mass media and people obsessed with them need to get a life and stop fetishizing the military-industrial complex.
I expect it might be something like buying Spec Ops sight unseen and being confused when you start going fucking batshit nuts.
God, I really enjoyed Spec Ops. The horror.
Yeah, it's a very shallow cocktail of ideas, though. It's a thick cloud of words but a thin array of ideas, mostly*.
I mean, you can be baffled by the mere fact that all these aspects meet at the centre of a popcorn entertainment spy story but if there's not much substance to these ideas, there's hardly any value in that part of it. You could even say it feels a bit disjointed (although I'll say that it's way better integrated in 2 than in 1).
*Parts of the commentary on the digital age are of some interest, at least. The rest, not so much.
I'm not arguing the substance or weight of the ideas, just the metric tone of volume and sudden way they're crammed into you at the end. As somebody said, nobody was expecting this back then, which is why it's considered such a mind fuck ending.
EmCeeGramr
Member
Someone made this comparison, and yeah it's probably the most succinct way to put it.
If you're underwhelmed by MGS2's "craziness" in 2014, imagine it being the equivalent of buying Modern Warfare 2 when it came out and the game actually being like a crazier Spec Ops: The Line.
AuthenticM
Member
To be fair to Dan, Drew already knew that MGS2 was batshit insane. Brad and Jeff talked about it multiple times over the years. Drew knew something was up with this game; Dan didn't spoil it to him.
I vary with the way I think about the way Dan leads, because I empathise a lot with him wanting to point out cool shit and background info, but he's occasionally jumping the gun with drawing Drew's attention to things (like straight up telling Drew
the Colonel was an AI
Still, sometimes he'll point out some cool shit. I never noticed the easter egg by the taxi he mentions near the end. Hell, I kinda still can't really spot it... I hope he's write.
Oh yeah, not arguing it's not a novel thing *for videogames* (and for the specific context of it being a sequel to MGS) in 2002. It perfectly explains the reaction at the time. A lot of ground-breaking works are heavily flawed (although 'heavily' seems more fitting for 1, I do think 2 succeeds in a lot of areas).
EmCeeGramr
Member
One more random thing that I just remembered: reading an EGM(?) back in 2001 where a last minute preview or "working on the review" article or something like that where the writer claimed that MGS2 seemed to wrap up the story and leave no dangling loose ends.
It's obviously not online and I can't remember which issue it was.
It's obviously not online and I can't remember which issue it was.
It's 2014 and it's still kind of rare for a game's story to be "about" something... I've always been impressed by the way Kojima claims his games to be based around a single concept (though I have my doubts about the veracity of his claims, though it might just be that gameplay has to take priority or at least exist in a reasonable capacity)
Jimmyfenix
Member
I was 10 years old when i played MGS2. so it is still crazy to me.
Also Demo Derby is dead
Also Demo Derby is dead
Crap same thing.
That one was really the only spoiler that Dan said that I felt he should have held back on. It was the beginning of the "what the hell is going on" moment.
so, is Snake looking for Olga's child a thing that happens in 4 or what
also, I'm tempted to read up on Vamp right now
you take that back!
also, I'm tempted to read up on Vamp right now
you take that back!
petethepanda
Member
I loved how Drew was accidentally learning at the most inconvenient time during the Ray fight that you can roll/cartwheel into prone.
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