Support NeoGAF

[Meneses]

Kanji's arc did feel disappointing in the end, but I never understood people's issue with Naoto when it was very clear, as stated above, that she hid her gender because she wanted to be taken seriously by a male-dominated oppressive society (which is a huge problem on its own), not because she identified with the opposite gender.

I understand that people sometimes project their feelings into characters and wish to have something to identify with, but sometimes that something just isn't there.

 

[yami4ct]

Well, the thing is that neither Mulan or Joan of Arc (the fictionalized version: of the historical figure, at least) have trouble with their femininity; they embrace it. It's not a ~psychological~ issue, as P4 very, very deliberately tries to make it for Naoto. Naoto is extremely uncomfortable with her gender. And the only way to make her comfortable with it is to fucking romance her, which is a whole other bag of yikes.

Except she's not uncomfortable with her gender because she's a woman. It's directly tied with self confidence issues about how she'll be viewed as a detective because she's a woman. She has the same issues with her age. Her greatest goal in life is to be respected as a detective, and she gets nervous with anything that gets in her way that she can't control. Her coming to terms with that is not an acceptance of being feminine, it's accepting that she can't control how people view her. She just needs to concentrate on being the best she can be at her job. Fuck other people if they view her lesser because of something that has zero to do with her career.

I think interpreting her storyline as any sort of LGBT commentary is a massive overreach. It also isn't really an issue about being uncomfortable with gender, but being uncomfortable of the treatment that comes with it.

 

[Myggen]

Thankfully they saved their actual trans views for Catherine where they just shit all over themselves.

Oof, yeah...

 

[TheMrPliskin]

Oof, yeah...

It's the worst, that character is the best character in the whole game which makes it worse when they just treat her as a joke. Catherine is a great game that touches on subjects that few games ever bother to touch upon and it's a shame that they botched one of the heaviest subjects so badly.

 

[supermetfreud]

Except she's not uncomfortable with her gender because she's a woman. It's directly tied with self confidence issues about how she'll be viewed as a detective because she's a woman. She has the same issues with her age. Her greatest goal in life is to be respected as a detective, and she gets nervous with anything that gets in her way that she can't control. Her coming to terms with that is not an acceptance of being feminine, it's accepting that she can't control how people view her. She just needs to concentrate on being the best she can be at her job. Fuck other people if they view her lesser because of something that has zero to do with her career.

I think interpreting her storyline as any sort of LGBT commentary is a massive overreach. It also isn't really an issue about being uncomfortable with gender, but being uncomfortable of the treatment that comes with it.

Oh, I'm almost certain the intent wasn't to comment on LGBT issues. I'm saying they did regardless. When using Jungian shit as your main inspiration, the whole thing comes off as an incredibly reductive, dangerously medicalized perspective on transness. Whether they meant to or not, they tied so much of her arc to gender trouble tropes, and it was hard not to take the resolution as them just "curing" her of transness.

 

[Data West]

Yakuza 5's trans character was handled a lot better than their previous trans character

 

[yami4ct]

It's the worst, that character is the best character in the whole game which makes it worse when they just treat her as a joke. Catherine is a great game that touches on subjects that few games ever bother to touch upon and it's a shame that they botched one of the heaviest subjects so badly.

They were so close (and sadly, still leagues ahead of the way most Japanese media treat trans characters), and they drop the ball near the end. I don't think they completely invalidate some of the positive steps they've made with her inclusion, but boy do they put a damper on it.

Oh, I'm almost certain the intent wasn't to comment on LGBT issues. I'm saying they did regardless. When using Jungian shit as your main inspiration, the whole thing comes off as an incredibly reductive, dangerously medicalized perspective on transness. Whether they meant to or not, they tied so much of her arc to gender trouble tropes, and it was hard not to take the resolution as them just "curing" her of transness.

I'm sorry, but that again just sounds like such projection and overreach. She isn't a gender troubled character. She's a character who's troubled by what her gender means for her treatment by outside society. There's a whole world of difference between the two. If her issue was basically 'I like boy things, so I dress as a boy', then you might have a point.

She's not afraid of her femininity, she's afraid of the treatment that that femininity might cause her.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Kanji's arc did feel disappointing in the end, but I never understood people's issue with Naoto when it was very clear, as stated above, that she hid her gender because she wanted to be taken seriously by a male-dominated oppressive society (which is a huge problem on its own), not because she identified with the opposite gender.

I understand that people sometimes project their feelings into characters and wish to have something to identify with, but sometimes that something just isn't there.

It reminds me of the Overwatch beta thread where in Symmetras comic where people thought she was autistic because Symmetra mentions "where do I lie on the spectrum?" seeing as the company she works for is lawful evil, and she was questioning whether what she was doing was for the greater good.

 

[Twin Tails]

Bets on who is gonna be doing it?
East?
West?
Brad alone in his room?

West since it will be like 6 in east.

 

[Meguro]

I totally forgot about US timezones.
Whoops!
Looking forward to catching the archive tomorrow of Dan saying how much of a cool guy McCree is.

 

[Myggen]

West since it will be like 6 in east.

That or a solo stream yeah. Starts later than West streams normally start but I guess that`s just a result of when the servers open.

 

[Twin Tails]

That or a solo stream yeah. Starts later than West streams normally starts but I guess that`s just a result of when the servers open.

West Confirmed
https://twitter.com/jeffgerstmann/status/734845971276779520

 

[FStop7]

Can we really trust Bradley Shoemanufacturer???

Only an innocent man sleeps so easily.

 

[skynidas]

with the anticipation that this game has I'm not confident on those servers.

 

[repeater]

Hey guys, since Nintendo in their infinite generosity has decided to grace us plebs located in that little known backwater called "Europe" with a release of Fire Emblem in our region, and since I happen to be sitting on a little discount code, I'm wondering which version of Fates I should get.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the map design of "Birthright" being disappointing, as well as the campaign being too easy. But "Awakening" was my first FE game, and I struggled a lot with that in the beginning, and relied quite a lot on grinding to get me through. So I fear "Conquest" might be too hard for me. What do you think about getting "Birthright" and turning up the difficulty (at least) one notch? Could that be the approach for me?

 

[TheMrPliskin]

^^^
Extensive yami FE post incoming.

They were so close (and sadly, steal leagues ahead of the way most Japanese media treat trans characters), and they drop the ball near the end. I don't think they completely invalidate some of the positive steps they've made with her inclusion, but boy do they put a damper on it.

They stumble multiple times along the way (there are some snarky comments about the fact she's trans and the rest of the group is put off by the idea of Toby being in a relationship with her) but the true Katherine ending is when they fall flat on their arse in a completely irredeemable way.

The fact she's referred to by her former name in the official artbook is just them falling back on their arse in the midst of getting up.

Part of me hopes that they actually give these subjects an honest non shitty try in P5 and part of me hopes they just stay far away.

 

[yami4ct]

Hey guys, since Nintendo in their infinite generosity has decided to grace us plebs located in that little known backwater called "Europe" with a release of Fire Emblem in our region, and since I happen to be sitting on a little discount code, I'm wondering which version of Fates I should get.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the map design of "Birthright" being disappointing, as well as the campaign being too easy. But "Awakening" was my first FE game, and I struggled a lot with that in the beginning, and relied quite a lot on grinding to get me through. So I fear "Conquest" might be too hard for me. What do you think about getting "Birthright" and turning up the difficulty (at least) one notch? Could that be the approach for me?

Birthright is like Awakening made good. If you started with Awakening, go onto Birthright. If you can clear that on hard, you should be able to do Conquest Normal at the very least.

Birthright is disappointing compared to Conquest, but it's not a bad game. There are a few memorable maps and the design is leagues ahead of Awakening. I still suggest tackling Conquest after, because it's amazing, but Birthright isn't a bad game at all either.

 

[FStop7]

I just ordered the Overwatch Collector's Edition for PC and I don't even have a computer that can handle it. The fuck is wrong with me.

Spoiler

It's because I flipped 2 of the original WoW CE for hundreds in profits back in the day

 

[Felix Lighter]

with the anticipation that this game has I'm not confident on those servers.

I am confident that they will crumble.

 

[Myggen]

I am confident that they will crumble.

For sure

 

[yami4ct]

They stumble multiple times along the way (there are some snarky comments about the fact she's trans and the rest of the group is put off by the idea of Toby being in a relationship with her) but the true Katherine ending is when they fall flat on their arse in a completely irredeemable way.

The fact she's referred to by her former name in the official artbook is just them falling back on their arse in the midst of getting up.

Part of me hopes that they actually give these subjects an honest non shitty try in P5 and part of me hopes they just stay far away.

It doesn't excuse it, obviously, but it's still progress from where Japanese media has been with trans characters. In terms of representation, the transgendered community probably gets the worst of it of all the LGBT groups. The best they can typically hope for is an exaggerated okama character that's typically a bearded man in a kimono played for laughs. If that character is given any sort of development at all, that's better than the norm.

There's a long, long, long way to go, but showing a transgendered character that's actually transitioned, voicing them by the correct gendered VA and generally treating them like their correct gender is progress.

 

[Twin Tails]

Maybe we will get some Windjammers.

 

[skLaFarebear]

Hey guys, since Nintendo in their infinite generosity has decided to grace us plebs located in that little known backwater called "Europe" with a release of Fire Emblem in our region, and since I happen to be sitting on a little discount code, I'm wondering which version of Fates I should get.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the map design of "Birthright" being disappointing, as well as the campaign being too easy. But "Awakening" was my first FE game, and I struggled a lot with that in the beginning, and relied quite a lot on grinding to get me through. So I fear "Conquest" might be too hard for me. What do you think about getting "Birthright" and turning up the difficulty (at least) one notch? Could that be the approach for me?

Birthright's really solid, Conquest is even better. Honestly, you can't go wrong with either game, just know that Conquest is the better one.

Haven't played Revelations myself yet though so idk how that is.

 

[mintyice]

Hopefully they play Overwatch on PC.

 

[repeater]

Thanks a lot yami and skLaFarebear, your advice makes me feel better about dipping my toes in with "Birthright" first. I REALLY enjoyed "Awakening", so you guys saying even "Birthright" has it beat makes it sound like I might be in for a lot of fun.

So what do you guys think the odds are of an impromptu Destiny stream when the Overwatch servers inevitably shit the bed?

 

[jaina]

welcome to error #37

 

[Falifax]

Hopefully they play Overwatch on PC.

Brad on PC, Jeff on PS4, Dan on Xbox

Spoiler

All platforms won't connect to the servers

 

[yami4ct]

Thanks a lot yami and skLaFarebear, your advice makes me feel better about dipping my toes in with "Birthright" first. I REALLY enjoyed "Awakening", so you guys saying even "Birthright" has it beat makes it sound like I might be in for a lot of fun.

So what do you guys think the odds are of an impromptu Destiny stream when the Overwatch servers inevitably shit the bed?

Gameplay wise, Birthright is very much the direct sequel to Awakening. It takes the simplified map systems of that game and in general greatly improves on them. It's still a very defensive games, but on the whole it's a nice little improvement over Awakening.

Conquest is the most Classic of classic Fire Emblem. In difficulty, it harkens back even to the SNES days. The map gimmicks and skill system give them even more tools to mess with the player and it definitely calls for you to pay close attention to every move. Really fun overall.

 

[Infinite Justice]

I have always been baffled by that interpretation of Naoto tbh.

But i agree what they did with Kanji being kinda iffy.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I think it's the way those 2 arcs interact with each other that makes them both look iffy.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

What on earth is this Serverwatch live stream?

 

[mintyice]

What on earth is this Serverwatch live stream?

I'm guessing it's like the one they did for Diablo 3. They basically see if they can play the game when the server goes up and kind of shoot a QL?

 

[daydream]

Maybe we will get some Windjammers.

one can hope

 

[Infinite Justice]

I think it's the way those 2 arcs interact with each other that makes them both look iffy.

Indeed.

And i would says it shows that overall iffiness more from Kanj's POV.

Anyways it should be interesting to see what P5 is about in regards to these characters since from first glance everyone seems confident as fuck about what they are doing.

 

[Meneses]

Windjammers is bad and boring.

 

[yami4ct]

Indeed.

And i would says it shows that overall iffiness more from Kanj's POV.

Anyways it should be interesting to see what P5 is about in regards to these characters since from first glance everyone seems confident as fuck about what they are doing.

I don't think we'll likely see much LGBT stuff, since Persona's 4 'accepting yourself' theme was so ready built for that.

P5's themes seem to be breaking down a corrupt society. I expect some character arcs that are similar to Naoto's, but without the gender swap issue. Just a general, do what you do best and screw the people who try to stop you.

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

I'm guessing it's like the one they did for Diablo 3. They basically see if they can play the game when the server goes up and kind of shoot a QL?

Fair enough.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I thought Kanji and Naoto were both well done characters, with their own agency, thoughts and struggles. I never saw Kanji's S-link, but Naoto's went places and was one of the better ones. And in P4, Kanji's VO is downright magnificent, probably my favourite in the game.

As an aside, I really wish I didn't miss 80% of Kanji's S-link. I couldn't ever find him in Inaba until the very last month. Dunno if completing it would've changed my tune on him, but I do wonder.

Hopefully they play Overwatch on PC.

I kinda want to see the console version, to finally understand how Tracer works there.

 

[Glitchesarecool]

I just ordered the Overwatch Collector's Edition for PC and I don't even have a computer that can handle it. The fuck is wrong with me.

Spoiler

It's because I flipped 2 of the original WoW CE for hundreds in profits back in the day

I want to get it and there's no way in hell my internet would ever handle it.

Windjammers is bad and boring.

That's an opinion, a wrong one.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I thought Kanji and Naoto were both well done characters, with their own agency, thoughts and struggles. I never saw Kanji's S-link, but Naoto's went places and was one of the better ones. And in P4, Kanji's VO is downright magnificent, probably my favourite in the game.

As an aside, I really wish I didn't miss 80% of Kanji's S-link. I couldn't ever find him in Inaba until the very last month. Dunno if completing it would've changed my tune on him, but I do wonder.


I kinda want to see the console version, to finally understand how Tracer works there.

His s-link is fine, but you don't see a problem with a character whose defining moment was accepting himself only to be the butt of some really terrible, homophobic jokes only to respond with "oooooooh I'll show you that I'm not gay!"?

 

[popo]

Kotaku review of the nvidia 1080 is all new levels of half arsed.

i ran the benchmark in both 1920x1080 and 2560x1440 resolutions. Note that I had a load of other stuff running at the same time, which probably skewed the results a little lower, but my results are within a few points of others I’ve seen, so I trust them.

That is some dedication to science right there.

 

[Tubobutts]

Maybe we will get some Windjammers.

You'll never get Windjammers.

 

[Twin Tails]

Did someone say creepy anime?

Spoiler

I totally thought it just said Marie = trash since there was persona talk and didn't see other names too late now, I already posted it.

You'll never get Windjammers.

Excellent.

 

[Megasoum]

Beautiful day around here so I just took a 10km walkthis afternoon.

I am now ready to sit my ass down for the rest of the day.

Spoiler

I totally thought it just said Marie = trash since there was persona talk and didn't see other names too late now, I already posted it.

Anybody has a youtube link for that moment? I remember seeing it live back in the day but not sure it's on which video?

 

[Plexirvones]

Beautiful day around here so I just took a 10km walkthis afternoon.

I am now ready to sit my ass down for the rest of the day.




Anybody has a youtube link for that moment? I remember seeing it live back in the day but not sure it's on which video?

https://youtu.be/c-XdjL_uZ4Q?t=59m36s

 

[Megasoum]

https://youtu.be/c-XdjL_uZ4Q?t=59m36s

Thank you sir

 

[Curufinwe]

I thought Kanji and Naoto were both well done characters, with their own agency, thoughts and struggles. I never saw Kanji's S-link, but Naoto's went places and was one of the better ones. And in P4, Kanji's VO is downright magnificent, probably my favourite in the game.

As an aside, I really wish I didn't miss 80% of Kanji's S-link. I couldn't ever find him in Inaba until the very last month. Dunno if completing it would've changed my tune on him, but I do wonder.

It's worth watching online. I think Jeff and Vinny only got him up to rank 7, which is a shame. His level 10 event might be the best in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0JKwx4LB5k

 

[LurkerPrime]

His s-link is fine, but you don't see a problem with a character whose defining moment was accepting himself only to be the butt of some really terrible, homophobic jokes only to respond with "oooooooh I'll show you that I'm not gay!"?

In terms of the "joke" trait, yeah it's hugely disappointing. As I recall, every character has one joke trait that is hammered into the ground by the end of the story. Y'know, meat, snrk, Teddyisms, etc. But I do think Kanji is more than that, just like the other P4 S-links. (Though I'll be more disappointed if Kanji's S-link goes nowhere.)

But to digress, I think the offensiveness of his treatment was dwarfed by P4's... issues with all things Hanako. That was one element that consistently felt weird to me, oddly meanspirited compared to everything else--both by the developers and characters.

It's worth watching online. I think Jeff and Vinny only got him up to rank 7, which is a shame. His level 10 event might be the best in the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0JKwx4LB5k

Thanks for the link, but I fully intend to replay P4 some day. It was a great ride.

 

[stump sock]

Yakuza 5's trans character was handled a lot better than their previous trans character

japan in general is getting a little better about it, from what I can tell. the kind of odd thing (from a western perspective) is that they seem to be quicker to warm up to transgender people than they are gay people, who are still a super touchy subject.

I'm kind of curious to see how that character was handled in the japanese version because I never got that far. it would be interesting to see how it was localized from a predominantly non-gendered language to english.

 

[yami4ct]

His s-link is fine, but you don't see a problem with a character whose defining moment was accepting himself only to be the butt of some really terrible, homophobic jokes only to respond with "oooooooh I'll show you that I'm not gay!"?

Combining his S-Link and main story, my interpretation was that he was never gay, but the way he hid his hobbies that the outside world judged to be effeminate made him believe he was. Now, that interpretation has its own problems, but it at least ties up his story somewhat.

The homophobic jokes pretty much come from shit head teenagers been shit heads. The real problem is that the game gives all these pieces of his narrative, but never ties it together. The game never bothers to say 'hey, these guys are kinda shits for making these jokes'. It's just a bunch of portions of good ideas. If there's a major flaw in Persona 4, a game I deeply, deeply love, it's right there.