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Giant Bomb #22 | Drew, F*** This Tank

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skLaFarebear

Member
supermetfreud said:
I'm really hoping P5 handles its characters way better than P4. Naoto and Kanji are two of the most disappointing characters I've ever had to deal with in a video game, I think.
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There's a lot that's really bad/disappointing about that game, but it's not really something I care about anymore. At the least, P5 visually looks outstanding and I'm definitely gonna get the OST, though I have very little hope for it as a game.
 
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supermetfreud

Member
oti xero said:
Oh sure. Some Japanese games are super creepy. But if that's what they like. I wouldn't buy it if they didn't localize the creepiness out of it but I'm not gonna tell them what to develop and what not.
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I'm 100% comfortable telling people not to make shit that sexualizes super young characters, which, you know, is complicit in the normalization of really fucked up shit.
 
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supermetfreud

Member
skLaFarebear said:
There's a lot that's really bad/disappointing about that game, but it's not really something I care about anymore. At the least, P5 visually looks outstanding and I'm definitely gonna get the OST, though I have very little hope for it as a game.
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That's pretty much exactly how I feel. It's going to be a stylish mess with banging tunes that will make me feel horrible about playing it.
 
O

oti

Banned
supermetfreud said:
I'm 100% comfortable telling people not to make shit that sexualizes super young characters, which, you know, is complicit in the normalization of really fucked up shit.
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I've interviewed Japanese developers before. In my opinion everyone can develop whatever they want. The job of the critic is not to tell the artist what to do, but to critique their work.

But yes, some stuff is super creepy and I could do without it.
 
C

Curufinwe

Member
supermetfreud said:
I mean, they're only changing their ages after the fact. That shit's still hella skeevy.



I'm really hoping P5 handles its characters way better than P4. Naoto and Kanji are two of the most disappointing characters I've ever had to deal with in a video game, I think.
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P5 will be lucky to have characters as good as them.
 
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Meguro

Banned
I feel like I'm on the middle of this "creepy shit" discussion.
It's easily my least favorite part of any japanese media I consume but I learned to deal with it and just sigh everytime stuff like that comes up.

As for P4, I had someone tell me they think it's the most transphobic game they have ever played and I found it hard to disagree.
I love the game but yeeesh everything about Naoto's and Kanji's problems is handled extremely poorly.
 
R

repeater

Member
TraBuch said:
Wait, Tokyo Mirage Sessions is that SMT/FE game? Has it always been called that?
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It's pronounced "Tokyo Mirage Sessions Hashtag Eff Eee".

Game looks (and sounds) cool as all hell. Serious contender for the "Best styyyyyyyyyyle" category (if only someone at GB would play it).
 
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TheMrPliskin

Member
stump sock said:
apparently I'm missing something because nothing I've seen of #FE has been creepy?
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All I've seen is some stuff relating to swimsuit dlc, doesn't seem like anything incredibly off putting.

Curufinwe said:
P5 will be lucky to have characters as good as them.
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Naoto is mostly awful from top to bottom, Kanji is incredible but his struggle with his sexuality is throwaway and offensive and a glaring flaw against an otherwise great character.
 
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Curufinwe

Member
TheMrPliskin said:
Naoto is mostly awful from top to bottom, Kanji is incredible but his struggle with his sexuality is throwaway and offensive and a glaring flaw against an otherwise great character.
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No she isn't, and no it's not.

I mean, you're probably right, considering Catherine's handling of trans stuff was maybe even worse?
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Of course, that's your problem with Naoto. How utterly predictable. It's this terrible argument all over again.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=517674
 
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Salarians

Member
repeater said:
Yeah I know, I'm just janking your chain.

It'll forever be Hashtag Eff Eee in my heart, though.
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#
0HHy4f1.jpg
 
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TheMrPliskin

Member
Curufinwe said:
No she isn't, and no it's not.
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I really don't see how you could see Kanji's sexuality as anything other than throwaway, they tease that they might touch on that subject before backpedling incredibly hard. The idea that he might be gay is only ever treated negatively, I don't know if that was actually the intent when they were writing but it's not a great look.

I'm also inclined to believe that it was their intent when Catherine has an awful representation of a trans character that's even treated with disgust at one point. They also refer to her by her dead name in the official artbook which is awful.
 
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stump sock

Member
but Naoto was never trans nor meant to be trans? She hid her gender to not be dismissed for being "a girl." it was more about following her dreams and interests without her gender being a hindrance (an even bigger concern in japan than in the west) than actual gender dysphoria

so if people were reading something into it that wasn't there, then okay, I guess it's going to be disappointing.
 
M

Myggen

Member
supermetfreud said:
A'ight. I'm not gonna engage with someone so outwardly hostile.

Just thought my thoughts on a trans character would be worth something, as a trans person myself.
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TheMrPliskin said:
I really don't see how you could see Kanji's sexuality as anything other than throwaway, they tease that they might touch on that subject before backpedling incredibly hard. The idea that he might be gay is only ever treated negatively, I don't know if that was actually the intent when they were writing but it's not a great look.

I'm also inclined to believe that it was their intent when Catherine has an awful representation of a trans character that's even treated with disgust at one point. They also refer to her by her dead name in the official artbook which is awful.
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Agreed.

Also, I have to guess that the Overwatch stream will be GBWest given the time it goes live.
 
O

oti

Banned
I was super disappointed by how the game treated Kanji. I has no idea about this character when I started playing P4G for the first time and seeing his dungeon I was kinda shocked how far this game would go and super invested in his development. Guess what, it's all just a big joke for Atlus. Terrible, just terrible.

Game still super awesome doe.
 
D

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Naoto isn't trans and never was.

That's like the worst tumblr theory they've ever come up with either. It' completely changes the description of the character to fit their own needs.
 
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supermetfreud

Member
stump sock said:
but Naoto was never trans nor meant to be trans? She hid her gender to not be dismissed for being "a girl." it was more about following her dreams and interests without her gender being a hindrance (an even bigger concern in japan than in the west) than actual gender identity

so if people were reading something into it that wasn't there, then okay, I guess it's going to be disappointing.
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I'll just say what I said when I talked about Dragon Grandpa months ago in the STEAM thread. Even when a character isn't explicitly written as trans, they are coded as such. One has to remember that these aren't actual people who are deciding things about themselves; they are instead very deliberately constructed characters written by people with internalized prejudices. The whole "gender trouble" archetype is bullshit because it presents transness as something transient and/or something to be overcome.
 
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Salarians

Member
Kotaku said:
If you’re not at work, watch this one of D.Va and Hanzo. See how she gazes up at him before sensation overtakes her, forcing her gaze downward? See all the rapid expressions in between? Hanzo’s not exactly being gentle. D.Va’s into it, but there’s a lot of pain mixed with the pleasure. Take notes, Blizzard. That’s called economy of storytelling. No hammy dialogue, either!
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tumblr_nmxp4sBSxM1qz4zf7o1_250.jpg
 
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yami4ct

Member
Boy, you guys have been up to shit while I was away. Don't want to wade into the garbage fire too much, but here:

Data West said:
Naoto isn't trans and never was.

That's like the worst tumblr theory they've ever come up with either. It' completely changes the description of the character to fit their own needs.
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Absolutely. She's very much a Mulan or Joan of Arc style character. She doesn't cross dress because she identifies as male, she does it to open up career doors. It's more a commentary on the treatment of females in male dominated fields than an LGBT thing.

stump sock said:
now if you wanna say that Kanji was handled poorly (despite generally being a good character), I'm with you
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Agreed. I give them credit for the attempt, and the fact that he's extremely well written in general, but the way they drop the plot lines involving his sexuality with zero fanfare is probably one of the weaker aspects of the game. They had an opportunity to fix it with his Social Link, and I think they sort of explain it to an extent, but they should've connected it more directly and gave it a good wrap up.
 
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supermetfreud

Member
yami4ct said:
Absolutely. She's very much a Mulan or Joan of Arc style character. She doesn't cross dress because she identifies as male, she does it to open up career doors. It's more a commentary on the treatment of females in male dominated fields than an LGBT thing.
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Well, the thing is that neither Mulan or Joan of Arc (the fictionalized version of the historical figure, at least) have trouble with their femininity; they embrace it. It's not a ~psychological~ issue, as P4 very, very deliberately tries to make it for Naoto. Naoto is extremely uncomfortable with her gender. And the only way to make her comfortable with it is to fucking romance her, which is a whole other bag of yikes.
 
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TheMrPliskin

Member
stump sock said:
but Naoto was never trans nor meant to be trans? She hid her gender to not be dismissed for being "a girl." it was more about following her dreams and interests without her gender being a hindrance (an even bigger concern in japan than in the west) than actual gender dysphoria

so if people were reading something into it that wasn't there, then okay, I guess it's going to be disappointing.
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I think they definitely avoid touching that subject entirely, compared to Kanji where they dip their toe in before running away. I do think that they go a little over the top with reminding you she's a women in a way that I could see being off putting.

Thankfully they saved their actual trans views for Catherine where they just shit all over themselves.

What a way we've come from P2 where a gay relationship is seen as canon and also the most plain thing in the world.

Meguro said:
I'd take another Austin solo stream.
He killed it during Extra Life.
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Yeah, the Division stream was solid as well. Austin is good at holding a solo stream.
 
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